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gimmick sets, discussion threads, and you
- Thread starter chaos
- Start date
I'm pretty sure the novice has to learn before he comes up with the best solution.
Oh how to word this...the pokemon with the element of suprise must be able to take down it's top counters. I played a little advance, and I ran Special Gyrados (Hydro Pump/Blizzard/Thunder/Hidden Power Flying). That is truely suprising because not only does it take out..oh sya, Zapdos, Donphan/Skarmory, it can still deal with what it can counter (HP Flying for Heracross)...not sure if I worded it the way I want it to come.
Dig sucks...you can't resort to bad moves for type coverage...or use the pokemon's weakest attack score to deal with threats...I mean...who would use EQ on Mantine to deal with Electrics....A pokemon must be able to hit hard...using EQ on Mantine would not be using it to it's full potential
example?
Seriously...most two turn moves suck (minus Solarbeam... but thats because of Sunny Day/Drought). You may end up getting set up on and 6-0ed
Even Indiana Jones had to use a map to find a temple with treasure (man that analogy sucked..lol)
...not sure what to say here :/
I think that's what everyone's been trying to tell you...
Actually, the word gimmick means joke.
I'm sure nobody's shocked by this, but I tend to agree with Aielyn and Dragontamer on this.
I think one of the problems we have here is that 'gimmick' is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. Like Dragontamer was saying, some sets are obviously bad. Others are borderline. It seems to me that oftentimes the Smogon moderators are so sick of seeing crap movesets that they err on the side of automatically rejecting new ideas that don't come from a tried-and-true source.
To the mods here, I have this to say: you tout your battle experience, which I'm sure is copious. The problem is that the majority of that experience is from previous generations. You may have put a good amount of time and energy into analyzing the D/P movepools, and you may have had several dozen D/P battles. But when it comes down to it, D/P is still very, very new.
I'll reference the fairly recent thread about Bastiodon. In that thread, I made a comment that was a bit harsh about the official analyses. It was very poorly worded, and for that I apologize. The point I was trying to make is the same point that Dragontamer is making here. For all your collective battling experience, there are very good sets that you have overlooked. Reading through the analyses, it seems that for most of the Pokémon that aren't OU, you went through a list of pre-established roles (physical attacker, cleric, etc) and decided which roles those Pokémon had the potential to fill. Overall, the analyses are superb. But you're still depending on the community to fill in those gaps.
For instance, in trying to make Bastiodon usable, I posted a fairly sub-par set. But with the help and constuctive criticism of the community, we revised my set to the point that even Surgo thought it was quite useful in a certain environment (one that allows OHKOs). For me, that process is an important part of this community.
Now, let's take a look at the other side of the coin. I am NOT advocating that every crap moveset deserves equal consideration. Up until now, mods have been locking threads to combat the epidemic of bad suggestions. This thread seems to be an attempt to cut down on the number of threads like this. But ask yourself this: are the people who post those kinds of threads going to bother to read this? How many 'Read This First' threads are stickied at the top of this board right now? And how many of those reference even more 'Read This First' threads? I posit that the more of these threads that exist, the less likely people are to read them at all. I think what we need is a single 'Read This First' sticky that has some sort of chart. On the left side of the chart, you have reasons that users might want to post (new moveset, simple question, etc). On the right side, you list the correct thread(s) to post to for each topic, along with a link to the rules about those posts.
Whether or not you do this, you will never completely be rid of users that post poorly thought-out movesets. As mods, it's your job to micromanage the closing of these threads. No matter how much you wish that newbies would read all the rules, there's really nothing you can do to make them. You're just going to have to keep locking their threads and handing out infractions when necessary.
Finally, as little as it might mean coming from me, many of you are quite arrogant. I've seen many mods shouting down users who post sets that they think are unworkable. You're all sick of stupid posters, and I sympathize. I wouldn't want your job. But you're mods. If you can't be courteous and polite to users who disagree with you, then you shouldn't be mods.
Thanks to you, Synre, I need go no farther than this thread to find an example of what I'm talking about here. Dragontamer posted some unpopular opinions, and many of you disagree with him. But looking through his posts, I think you'll agree that he is polite throughout and seems quite open-minded. Now look at your rebuttal. You basically call him childish and seem to take great pleasure in 'refuting' his claims. The point he was trying to make is that sets that are originally preceived as gimmicks (like Tyraniboah) can eventually work their way into the list of standard movesets. You call this 'pure fallacy' and argue that it's a metagame counter, when that was never his argument at all. I can literally feel the hate in your post.
Maybe I'm off-base about your motives, but you should know that other posters that aren't in the priveleged circle of Smogon are going to see your comments in the same light that I do.
Smogon is a wonderful resource, and you all help to make it that way. But please, try to remember that you're not infallible. A lot of the little people here do see you as an arrogant, authoritarian group, and there are a lot of little things you can do to change that perception.
Thanks for reading.
I think one of the problems we have here is that 'gimmick' is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. Like Dragontamer was saying, some sets are obviously bad. Others are borderline. It seems to me that oftentimes the Smogon moderators are so sick of seeing crap movesets that they err on the side of automatically rejecting new ideas that don't come from a tried-and-true source.
To the mods here, I have this to say: you tout your battle experience, which I'm sure is copious. The problem is that the majority of that experience is from previous generations. You may have put a good amount of time and energy into analyzing the D/P movepools, and you may have had several dozen D/P battles. But when it comes down to it, D/P is still very, very new.
I'll reference the fairly recent thread about Bastiodon. In that thread, I made a comment that was a bit harsh about the official analyses. It was very poorly worded, and for that I apologize. The point I was trying to make is the same point that Dragontamer is making here. For all your collective battling experience, there are very good sets that you have overlooked. Reading through the analyses, it seems that for most of the Pokémon that aren't OU, you went through a list of pre-established roles (physical attacker, cleric, etc) and decided which roles those Pokémon had the potential to fill. Overall, the analyses are superb. But you're still depending on the community to fill in those gaps.
For instance, in trying to make Bastiodon usable, I posted a fairly sub-par set. But with the help and constuctive criticism of the community, we revised my set to the point that even Surgo thought it was quite useful in a certain environment (one that allows OHKOs). For me, that process is an important part of this community.
Now, let's take a look at the other side of the coin. I am NOT advocating that every crap moveset deserves equal consideration. Up until now, mods have been locking threads to combat the epidemic of bad suggestions. This thread seems to be an attempt to cut down on the number of threads like this. But ask yourself this: are the people who post those kinds of threads going to bother to read this? How many 'Read This First' threads are stickied at the top of this board right now? And how many of those reference even more 'Read This First' threads? I posit that the more of these threads that exist, the less likely people are to read them at all. I think what we need is a single 'Read This First' sticky that has some sort of chart. On the left side of the chart, you have reasons that users might want to post (new moveset, simple question, etc). On the right side, you list the correct thread(s) to post to for each topic, along with a link to the rules about those posts.
Whether or not you do this, you will never completely be rid of users that post poorly thought-out movesets. As mods, it's your job to micromanage the closing of these threads. No matter how much you wish that newbies would read all the rules, there's really nothing you can do to make them. You're just going to have to keep locking their threads and handing out infractions when necessary.
Finally, as little as it might mean coming from me, many of you are quite arrogant. I've seen many mods shouting down users who post sets that they think are unworkable. You're all sick of stupid posters, and I sympathize. I wouldn't want your job. But you're mods. If you can't be courteous and polite to users who disagree with you, then you shouldn't be mods.
Thanks to you, Synre, I need go no farther than this thread to find an example of what I'm talking about here. Dragontamer posted some unpopular opinions, and many of you disagree with him. But looking through his posts, I think you'll agree that he is polite throughout and seems quite open-minded. Now look at your rebuttal. You basically call him childish and seem to take great pleasure in 'refuting' his claims. The point he was trying to make is that sets that are originally preceived as gimmicks (like Tyraniboah) can eventually work their way into the list of standard movesets. You call this 'pure fallacy' and argue that it's a metagame counter, when that was never his argument at all. I can literally feel the hate in your post.
Maybe I'm off-base about your motives, but you should know that other posters that aren't in the priveleged circle of Smogon are going to see your comments in the same light that I do.
Smogon is a wonderful resource, and you all help to make it that way. But please, try to remember that you're not infallible. A lot of the little people here do see you as an arrogant, authoritarian group, and there are a lot of little things you can do to change that perception.
Thanks for reading.
To the contrary, irritation at most. I try and save my hatred for users who think a bit more of themselves... you, for instance. I enjoy your characterization though... I'd try and avoid putting words in my mouth in the future.
Either way you sure did enjoy just taking the parts of my post you wanted to use and ignoring the rest.
also
Footnote said:
I don't think perception has anything to do with it...
[23:43:57] <@chaos> i agree
[23:44:03] <@chaos> we are an arrogant authoritarian group
[23:44:04] <@chaos> he is spot on
[23:44:10] <@Surgo> I wouldn't change that for anything
[23:44:13] <@Surgo> that is who we are and we embrace that
We are what we are and I don't think any of us particularly have a problem with that. If you don't like it, the door is easy to find.
Some of you need to read this:
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
Forget the one article, read every article on that site
If victory is your goal, than this is your bible, as it were.
I was not trying to say that tackle + gust pidgey was a decent strategy or pokemon.
Ad Homenium aside, can you expand upon this further? Do you mean my entire post? Or just specific examples that I've suggested? I have not suggested any specific example. I assume you mean my entire post about gimmick sets. Stupid movesets are fun, period. Either for adults or children. However, I don't think a child can come up with Trick Room + Destiny Bond + focus sash on a slow weak pokemon. I didn't come up with it myself, and I'd expect the person who did come up with it to be rather smart actually.
Additionally, I was not suggesting that battlers use a Tackle + Gust pidgey :-/ So perhaps it is a miscommunication error. I guess quote marks are too general or something.
First, fallacies are well documented in English / Rhetoric textbooks and furthermore are documented on the web. They all have names. If this really is a fallacy, could you please state the fallacy and the explanation for why my post was a fallacy?
Second, what appears to be going on here is that we do not agree to the same definition. I have stated in that post my definition of a "gimmick". Perhaps you feel it is too general?
Again, my definition is as follows:
Given this definition, Tyraniboah is clearly a gimmick.
EDIT1: I should be more specific here. Tyraniboah is NO LONGER a gimmick, but was a gimmick when it first came out.
As for my argument for this definition...
Part #1 of the above definition is necessary. Stupid crap like Tackle + gust + sand attack Pidgey are NOT gimmicks. They're stupid. Plain and simple. Only an idiot would go into battle with one.
Part #2 makes this more specific. Yeah, Blissey is a standard pokemon who works in the competitive environment. However, it is neither surprising to the foe, nor the community. Therefore, Blissey is not a gimmick.
I feel the above definition is what the general community feels what a gimmick is. If I'm wrong here, please provide an example.
Sorry to cut your post here, but after this point you start to cover a totally different point. :-p
Anway, this is where part #1 of my definition comes in. Effective in a competitive environment. Effectively, an "ineffective gimmick" is an oxymoron to this definition. I am probably touting my definition too much at this point however. I'll give you a post to criticize it before I focus on it much more.
I disagree on that. Even in the oldest subjects in school, it is possible for a lowly newbie to come up with advanced stuff. I don't know how many Physics classes I've sat in where the teacher attempts to explain very advanced math (Calculus or even Differential Equations) without teaching the said subject. In fact, one of my friend's Physics professor expected the students to basically grasp the concept of the derivative themselves.
When you grasp a concept by yourself through experimentation, you learn so much more about it than when you just read the "threat list" of pokemon.
I apologize ahead of time for any trouble this post might cause, but this is really bothering me.
I haven't really been able to play any DP yet, but based on my understanding of it, Dig + Powerful Herb Leafeon would be pretty handy if your team was otherwise Heatran weak. As I look at Leafeon's movepool, it really looks like it's a dream switch in for Heatran who has a 4X resist on pretty much everything Leafeon can do and a standard resist on everything else, and I think that DP's base 80 Dig would OHKO or come very close if not. Your item slot and a moveslot isn't a horrible sacrifice to get a surprise OHKO on a problem Pokemon. It's kinda the same principle as putting random HP Grass and HP Ice on stuff in RSE that you think will provoke Swampert and Salamence switch ins when you think your team will otherwise lose to them. Of course, Dig + Powerful Herb has that annoying problem of "you can only use it once and then it's back to being old useless Dig", but at least you're faster than Heatran so you don't have to predict the switch. I'm not saying it should be the standard or anywhere near it, but it doesn't seem completely useless. It seems like a potentially handy surprise move with niche use depending on the rest of the team.
That being said, I have absolutely no idea what the rest of the set is (I searched around and couldn't seem to find a set centered around Dig). I assume Swords Dance/Baton Pass/Leaf Blade which would be the obviously best way to finish the set. If it's something completely stupid like Attract/Curse/Iron Tail, I obviously don't want any part of defending it.
I haven't really been able to play any DP yet, but based on my understanding of it, Dig + Powerful Herb Leafeon would be pretty handy if your team was otherwise Heatran weak. As I look at Leafeon's movepool, it really looks like it's a dream switch in for Heatran who has a 4X resist on pretty much everything Leafeon can do and a standard resist on everything else, and I think that DP's base 80 Dig would OHKO or come very close if not. Your item slot and a moveslot isn't a horrible sacrifice to get a surprise OHKO on a problem Pokemon. It's kinda the same principle as putting random HP Grass and HP Ice on stuff in RSE that you think will provoke Swampert and Salamence switch ins when you think your team will otherwise lose to them. Of course, Dig + Powerful Herb has that annoying problem of "you can only use it once and then it's back to being old useless Dig", but at least you're faster than Heatran so you don't have to predict the switch. I'm not saying it should be the standard or anywhere near it, but it doesn't seem completely useless. It seems like a potentially handy surprise move with niche use depending on the rest of the team.
That being said, I have absolutely no idea what the rest of the set is (I searched around and couldn't seem to find a set centered around Dig). I assume Swords Dance/Baton Pass/Leaf Blade which would be the obviously best way to finish the set. If it's something completely stupid like Attract/Curse/Iron Tail, I obviously don't want any part of defending it.
I do have to agree here; it's not that those sets are "gimmicky" because no one uses them, it's because they're nonstandard AND STILL WORK. Using something that no one else uses and sucks isn't creative. Figuring out something on your own that works and introducing a new angle to something is.
With that definition out of the way, I'd like to say that it's bad to just post random stuff without thinking, but it's just as bad to flame people and not explain the reasoning behind it. You gotta know why dig isn't a good move to stop using it in a moveset. Like Dragontamer said, sending a private message their way explaining why dig doesn't work so well works a lot better than saying "no you're dumb," and the new person will learn a lot more.
With that definition out of the way, I'd like to say that it's bad to just post random stuff without thinking, but it's just as bad to flame people and not explain the reasoning behind it. You gotta know why dig isn't a good move to stop using it in a moveset. Like Dragontamer said, sending a private message their way explaining why dig doesn't work so well works a lot better than saying "no you're dumb," and the new person will learn a lot more.
More or less.
Dragontamer said:
Wow, really? Is that what you meant? You didn't really mean people should use two moves with a combined BP lower than Return's? I would never have guessed!
Dragontamer said:
I enjoy your attempt at making me look an idiot, however
1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.: That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.
2. a misleading or unsound argument.
3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
4. Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fallacy)
Although 1 or 2 would have worked as well!
Dragontamer said:
It's more like your definition of a gimmick varies dramatically enough from what we normally refer to as a 'gimmick' as a community than it's not really the definition I was arguing - your definition of gimmick is basically 'a set other than the standard set that is effective' when it comes down to it, which is far too broad. 'Gimmick' is normally applied to stuff like that Power Herb Dig ridiculousness, most Focus Sash sets, and that sort of thing. As a whole, stuff that can work well if the surprise factor is there but normally will not work without that element of surprise.
This is a large part of why I wouldn't consider Boah a gimmick - even once you know it's set it's somewhat effective, and not unlike Salamence in DP the set's existance makes all Tyranitar harder to switch into. It might be surprising to your opponent that you are using Boah instead of CBTar, or even CBMence instead of Specsmence in DP, but that wouldn't make either set a gimmick even though they hit about one and a half of your qualifications(and 'surprise the entire community' is unrealistic almost to the point of unattainable).
Dragontamer said:
The problem that keeps coming up in debates on this forum right now tends to be whether or not things are 'stupid crap like Tackle + Gust + Sand attack" Pidgey or if they are effective like Boah or whatever else you want to consider an effective gimmick.
Power Herb Leafeon helped spur this topic so using that as an example, yes, it can conceivably work. There's also a lot of potential problems that can occur - if whatever you are trying to target (Heatran, for instance) switches out, anticipating your switch perhaps, you lose the gimmick for the rest of the match. I've even run into Protect Heatrans which would destroy the gimmick... admittedly those aren't real common, but I think a large part of the problem with a set like that is that weird shit or even a play you aren't expecting can delete a moveslot as well as an item for the rest of the match. I can't see a whole lot of situations where being able to Dig once will be more useful than whatever move you are sacrificing for it, although given the right enemy team it does have a chance of being effective. I think what makes it a gimmick more than anything else is that, due to your opponent not having a team that is vulnerable to it or do to the relative ease of your opponent making a decision that will prevent the gimmick from being useful for the rest of the match, it won't work consistently.
Dragontamer said:
It is certainly possible but it isn't likely. The main reason for this being that playing competitively at a high level is so radically different from playing in-game, or even over wifi with less experienced players that it is almost inconceivable that most new players would come up with something that no one else has thought of that would be very effective in an extremely competitive setting - to be able to show that type of innovation you're almost required to have pretty substantial experience with prediction and team building in order to know how the new set you're creating would fit into a team and work effectively in battle. Pokemon is a game where more than almost any other game that I can think of you really need to 'learn' the game in a lot of ways, both with the knowledge aspects of the game like learning both the common sets of pokemon as well as their movepools in order to prepare yourself better for the surprise sets, as well as the more cognitive aspects of the game like team building in prediction. Without learning these things it's really difficult for a new player to create a really effective set, which I think has been really evident lately with the barrage of new players who really haven't played competitively for longer than a few months, if even that long. A lot of the older posters here have been playing 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 years competitively, you learn a lot about team building and prediction and generally how competitive pokemon works playing that long.
Here's an observation: wouldn't Dig work very well with Stealth Rock?
Think about it, of the three types that resist/immune ground, 2 are weak to Stealth Rock. If you use Dig to force a switchout, whatever switches in to take the hit eats 25%.
Assuming you have a sufficent answer to them (say, Fire Blast if you're Flareon for Grass/Bug or Avalanche Glaceon for Grass/Flying)
Now, some will argue even with the power boost Dig only averages 40 BP per turn, but we all know that isn't really the story. A KO is a KO is a KO. If you kill whatever it hits before it moves, it doesn't matter if the first turn you were digging underground.
The trouble with Dig is it makes anything doubly susceptible to EQ, and the only Diggers immune to Earthquake are Charizard, Ledian, Ninjask, Shedinja, Claydol, Flygon, and Gliscor. Half of those get EQ. Ledian is LOL, and Digging Shedinja is Tyranitar/ Hippowdon/Abomasnow bait.
Dig Ninjask might have some merit. If it can get a Sub up first. Dig makes it invulnerable for 2 more speed boosts, and at least puts a dent in TTar.
Think about it, of the three types that resist/immune ground, 2 are weak to Stealth Rock. If you use Dig to force a switchout, whatever switches in to take the hit eats 25%.
Assuming you have a sufficent answer to them (say, Fire Blast if you're Flareon for Grass/Bug or Avalanche Glaceon for Grass/Flying)
Now, some will argue even with the power boost Dig only averages 40 BP per turn, but we all know that isn't really the story. A KO is a KO is a KO. If you kill whatever it hits before it moves, it doesn't matter if the first turn you were digging underground.
The trouble with Dig is it makes anything doubly susceptible to EQ, and the only Diggers immune to Earthquake are Charizard, Ledian, Ninjask, Shedinja, Claydol, Flygon, and Gliscor. Half of those get EQ. Ledian is LOL, and Digging Shedinja is Tyranitar/ Hippowdon/Abomasnow bait.
Dig Ninjask might have some merit. If it can get a Sub up first. Dig makes it invulnerable for 2 more speed boosts, and at least puts a dent in TTar.
hahaha, I wonder if this was sarcasm.
Yeah, mixed up Shedinja and Ninjask in that last line there.:justin:
It especially made no sense since I already said Dig Shedinja was just TTar/Hippowdon/Abomasnow bait.
It especially made no sense since I already said Dig Shedinja was just TTar/Hippowdon/Abomasnow bait.
Lol, seriously, what the hell is going on in this thread?
Honestly, I don't know why many people are making so much of a fuss. Okay, so you think your set is better? Then wait until Competitor is released, use it, and whip the ass of everyone with it. If that happens, you'll be sure your set will be included in the DP analyses. Chances are this won't happen, but nothing is certain, so go ahead and try it out.
I repeat, seriously, why are you making such a fuss? It's not like the DP analyses are 100% omniscient and 100% correct. We have tried to be as close to that percentage as possible, but we're not there yet. I'm sure some of the analyses (especially of those Pokemon that we're already considering not being OU) are WAY off. I'm certain that they will be updated once Competitor comes out and the metagame starts settling down. However, it is a great moveset guide, if anything, of what you can do with every particular Pokemon, and you can't go much wrong if you heed it.
So bottom line is: if you think Natural Gift + random berry is cool, then use it. If you think Sky Attack + weird item is cool, then use it. Nobody is forcing you not to. If your strategy turns out to be gamebreaking, then it will certainly end up in the DP analyses page. If not, then you tried and you failed, but keep on trying. Experiments don't always succeed, after all.
Honestly, I don't know why many people are making so much of a fuss. Okay, so you think your set is better? Then wait until Competitor is released, use it, and whip the ass of everyone with it. If that happens, you'll be sure your set will be included in the DP analyses. Chances are this won't happen, but nothing is certain, so go ahead and try it out.
I repeat, seriously, why are you making such a fuss? It's not like the DP analyses are 100% omniscient and 100% correct. We have tried to be as close to that percentage as possible, but we're not there yet. I'm sure some of the analyses (especially of those Pokemon that we're already considering not being OU) are WAY off. I'm certain that they will be updated once Competitor comes out and the metagame starts settling down. However, it is a great moveset guide, if anything, of what you can do with every particular Pokemon, and you can't go much wrong if you heed it.
So bottom line is: if you think Natural Gift + random berry is cool, then use it. If you think Sky Attack + weird item is cool, then use it. Nobody is forcing you not to. If your strategy turns out to be gamebreaking, then it will certainly end up in the DP analyses page. If not, then you tried and you failed, but keep on trying. Experiments don't always succeed, after all.
I think that a lot of people are forgetting that unless the Pokemon has a lot of potential, its analysis is very standard. Most Pokemon are only given a short look at (unless they completely wtfpwn), because it's simply costing too much time to test out every build for the immense amount we currently have. Currently most analysis have a standard build and a choice item build, with nothing more. However, that doesn't mean that it's the only viable options. Some exotic set could work perfectly. Nobody is perfect. And it's impossible to think of every combination that could work.
Your original posts would make it seem as if you were implying that. Perhaps I read in too deep. Nonetheless, there is a clear and definitive degrading tone in your posts (including this one I'm replying to). If perhaps that were erased, I would not have received that message.
The problem is that I am no longer sure whether you are trying to take a cheap shot at my intelligence or whether you are actually trying to make an intelligent debate. I hope that this is enough evidence to show you that acting arrogant and sarcastic is not the best thing to do in every debate (see here). If you want to be that you got no complaints from me. I'm simply pointing out the inefficiency. We can seriously go much further in this debate if we hold a mutual trust that we aren't trying to rip each other's egos apart.
That said, I'm going to focus on this gimmick discussion.
Perhaps then I can be slightly more specific. Gimmicks are humorous. However, while humor changes from person to person, we can almost all agree that something funny is unexpected.
The thing of course, is that it is very difficult to pull off a gimmick in a competitive environment. Nonetheless, nothing stops a gimmick from being effective. That is the end-point of my argument.
I do believe we've come across the key point here. You feel gimmicks are not consistently good, while I feel gimmicks are simply funny strategies that work.
To be fair however, 8 years is a very short time compared to many games. Chess, Go and even Backgammon are far older than Pokemon and still new strategies come forth from those games. And then of course we can compare Pokemon to general sciences, like Mathematics, Physics and we can easily see that even current experts have not explored Pokemon's mechanics as far as any classical game or subject.
Unlike Chess, Go, Backgammon and any science really, Pokemon's mechanics have CHANGED. Thats not to say that experts aren't experts anymore... certainly being an expert in the Advanced generation helps a lot in understanding Diamond/Pearl. Perhaps even the best player from Advanced is still the best player. However, it really is a new world and I think it is too early to attempt to classify something as "gimmick" unless it really doesn't work.
Furthermore, those 8 years of understanding "dig" in particular are now pretty much void. Dig now has two things going for it:
1. The jump from 60 power to 80 power
2. The Power Herb item
We can't just rely on the experience from Advance or GSC to tell us how well dig will perform. It is too different; I don't even think one-shot items and attacks even existed before. Yes, sure, call it stupid (I wouldn't use dig myself) but you can no longer rely on experience to tell you that it is stupid. Dig has changed too much.
That said, Competitor isn't even out yet. We can't even test whether it is a bad idea yet (without taking a few weeks to breed and train up a Pokemon). Till then, I don't think we are able to.
EDIT:
My motivation is that when this becomes a rule, then the moderators have the power to issue infractions and ban these kinds of discussions, especially as this idea seems to be pushed primarily by the moderators of smogon. It is of my opinion that this would be bad for the competitive environment of smogon. New blood is always a good thing, and destroying a n00b's argument should be easy as pie.
To be honest you and Footnote both reacted pretty much exactly how I was hoping you would to said arrogance and sarcasm. If you don't want me to make that sort of argument, I'd stop taking the bait!
Dragontamer said:
I don't really agree that the mechanics of most sciences don't change over time, since most of them have as they've been shifted to focus more on facts and less on theories as centuries have passed. But back to Pokemon...
8 years isn't a long time compared to most of those things you mentioned, no. It is, however, and incredibly long time compared to the amount of competitive Pokemon I would wager a majority of this board has played, which in almost every case is less than a year. I find it incredibly amusing that at the introduction of every new generation people seem to throw out the 'it's a whole new game now, your experience doesn't mean anything' argument, and then later, by some amazing coincidence, nearly all of the top players in the previous generation end up being amongst the best in the new one. The game changes, yes, but the team building and prediction mechanics at the core of the game are different. Different movesets and attack and defense scores and speed tiers come up every generation, but when you get down to it the game really doesn't change that much. Adv-DP(espeically Adv circa 2003 or 2004 or so) is really not a very big change competitively.
Either way, I'd love to see people try and actually use more of these 'gimmick' sets on some of the better players here rather than just whining about how it would work and we're being elitists or whatever. I think it's fairly obvious that a Pokemon battle is a better way to prove that a Pokemon strategy does or doesn't work than a message board forum when it's fairly obvious neither side is going to relent without some evidence found in battle.
Dragontamer said:
Don't forget that Dig's BP was originally 100, it's not like we've never played with Dig stronger(in terms of base power) than it is now.
Power Herb helps it a lot more than even getting boosted back to 100 could, but as in all situations with a move/item combo rather than just spending a moveslot you're also spending an item slot, and both of those things are pretty incredibly valuable. Dig has one major advantage over Earthquake in that more Pokemon can learn it(and honestly I can't see any reason at all why anyone would even try to argue Dig over EQ on something that learns both), but I see very, very few situations where it would be viable at all to waste both a moveslot and an itemslot on it.
On Leafeon for instance, presumably you're putting Dig over the Grasswhistle/Roar slot. I'm really skeptical about whether Leafeon is going to get more use out of Dig than either of those moves, especially considering it has to get rid of it's Leftovers to(normally) use Dig once per battle. You might score some funny KOs against Pokemon that aren't expecting it like Heatran, but there will normally be equally many battles where you don't run into something that's OHKOable by Dig(something like Skarmory is a pretty reasonable switch in for Leafeon, for instance) and now you've wasted your Item slot for no real reason. Of course, there's also battles where you would have been more effective with Roar or Grasswhistle, and addition to not having one of those moves you all effectively have no item. I just can't see it working consistently enough to be worth burning that fourth moveslot and Leafeon's item on(but at least it works well with item clause I guess, lol).
It is of my opinion that baiting the opponent is equally worthless in a debate as flaming, serving no purpose other than to inflate egos and whatnot. Interestingly enough, it also appears that neither of us are affected by this and have probably spent far too much time on unmoderated message boards and are used to this sort of atmosphere :-p
That said, I'm willing to stop biting if you're willing to stop baiting. Or whenever I feel tired of this... whichever comes first.
I agree. Nonetheless, an argument based on one's ethos, that is their experience, intelligence or otherwise expertise in a matter, relies on the public perception of that ethos. I'm simply commenting that "experience", an already weak argument, is made even weaker as the game changes.
While an argument can change to suit a new environment, experience may not. An expert on the other hand should be able to point out the "obvious" flaws in any such set, joke or otherwise, and then under typical circumstances the discussion will continue and perhaps something else will be learned.
Well yeah, I'd like to see that too actually. But competitor is not out yet, so the fastest ways to test out a theory is to talk about it first, before spending the large amount of time investing the said strategy into an EV trained IV bred pokemon and testing it on Wi Fi.
I can't forget something I never knew.
Dig has 100% accuracy. So that helps where Grasswhistle doesn't, and a OHKO is worth more than a roar. I admit that roar and grasswhistle are decent options, but the option for power herb dig is still avaliable to those who wish to test it out.
Dragontamer, much of the stuff you're saying is already being handled by Synre in much the same way I would so I'll refrain from jumping in (not that he needs it or that you couldn't handle it.) I will say one thing though — I take exception to your definition of "gimmick". You've had a chance to revise it, but you've gone from this:
to this:
and took a huge step backwards. I ask you this: do you honestly think that chaos and myself came up with Boah to be "funny"? The only thing inherently funny about it is its name, I don't care who you are or what your perception of humor is.
For some evidently badly-needed Metagame History 101: towards the end of 2004 the metagame was mired in a deep "stall" mentality, with virtually all competitive teams having at least two of Skarmory, Blissey, Dusclops, Suicune and Claydol. When I asked to write the Advance Tyranitar analysis for the then-new Smogon site, I was reminded to look at all of Tyranitar's options, and not just stop at what I've dubbed "The Quintessential Tyranitar", whose set is the then-popular — and -predictable, which is one of my main points — Rock Slide/Earthquake/Dragon Dance/Taunt. Looking through Tyranitar's movepool and its stats, while keeping in mind the current metagame, I realized that its ability to make 101 HP Subs while still outspeeding Blissey and Dusclops, 2HKO all five of the above pokemon with FP/TB/Crunch, and whip up a Sand Stream that indirectly combated the stall metagame of the time would instantly validate its presence as a threat and would likely not remain a mere gimmick.
Even then, chaos tried it on NetBattle first after I posted my analysis, with obviously stellar results. It's not like we proclaimed Boah to be the metagame breaker it ultimately proved to be over time. This is why people like Synre and other established battlers can't help but become really, really annoyed at the notion of someone who joined our forums some two weeks ago and obviously otherwise reeks of inexperience proclaiming things like Iron Tail and Dig to be good ideas on Leafeon. It's disgusting, when you think about. As has been stated by X-Act, chaos, tenchi and countless other established, experienced battlers, go play. You're free to try your "gimmick" (used loosely) set out, and then post about it if you're having good results against competent opponents. But, honestly, how dare you come on our boards and champion stuff like Iron Tail and Dig as if you, literally, know what you're talking about and the established, experience battlers among us don't? Can you start to see how utterly ridiculous that is now, and that you can hardly blame people like Synre for being short with you?
All that said, to address your initial, more accurate definition of gimmick — if it works in a competitive environment, and surprises the entire community, how can it honestly be considered a gimmick? First, by "work" one 100% must be talking about time-tested efficacy. Even if someone were to win an Official Smogon DP tournament 1-0 because Heatran was heads up against a Powerful Herb/Dig Leafeon at 1-1 (and, obviously, this was the first time said battler even used his or her Leafeon), nobody could conceivably say "hey, that set works!" just because it was the final move used in an important tournament. Second, to "surprise the entire community" is to at once imply it's been used over and over, not just in one or two battles, and is therefore time-tested and therefore not really a gimmick anymore.
One last point, revisiting the response Boah was to late 2004's stall metagame: there IS no metagame yet. Who's to say that the Heatran that is seemingly the main and only validation of Powerful Herb/Dig Leafeon won't end up being BL, therefore making Powerful Herb/Dig Leafeon's consistent (one of Syrne's points) usefulness a virtual non-issue? Only time and experience can tell that. For now, sticking to the analyses made by those of us with 5-8 years of experience is seriously the best way to go...in addition to actually garnering some battling experience before trying to create movesets.
to this:
and took a huge step backwards. I ask you this: do you honestly think that chaos and myself came up with Boah to be "funny"? The only thing inherently funny about it is its name, I don't care who you are or what your perception of humor is.
For some evidently badly-needed Metagame History 101: towards the end of 2004 the metagame was mired in a deep "stall" mentality, with virtually all competitive teams having at least two of Skarmory, Blissey, Dusclops, Suicune and Claydol. When I asked to write the Advance Tyranitar analysis for the then-new Smogon site, I was reminded to look at all of Tyranitar's options, and not just stop at what I've dubbed "The Quintessential Tyranitar", whose set is the then-popular — and -predictable, which is one of my main points — Rock Slide/Earthquake/Dragon Dance/Taunt. Looking through Tyranitar's movepool and its stats, while keeping in mind the current metagame, I realized that its ability to make 101 HP Subs while still outspeeding Blissey and Dusclops, 2HKO all five of the above pokemon with FP/TB/Crunch, and whip up a Sand Stream that indirectly combated the stall metagame of the time would instantly validate its presence as a threat and would likely not remain a mere gimmick.
Even then, chaos tried it on NetBattle first after I posted my analysis, with obviously stellar results. It's not like we proclaimed Boah to be the metagame breaker it ultimately proved to be over time. This is why people like Synre and other established battlers can't help but become really, really annoyed at the notion of someone who joined our forums some two weeks ago and obviously otherwise reeks of inexperience proclaiming things like Iron Tail and Dig to be good ideas on Leafeon. It's disgusting, when you think about. As has been stated by X-Act, chaos, tenchi and countless other established, experienced battlers, go play. You're free to try your "gimmick" (used loosely) set out, and then post about it if you're having good results against competent opponents. But, honestly, how dare you come on our boards and champion stuff like Iron Tail and Dig as if you, literally, know what you're talking about and the established, experience battlers among us don't? Can you start to see how utterly ridiculous that is now, and that you can hardly blame people like Synre for being short with you?
All that said, to address your initial, more accurate definition of gimmick — if it works in a competitive environment, and surprises the entire community, how can it honestly be considered a gimmick? First, by "work" one 100% must be talking about time-tested efficacy. Even if someone were to win an Official Smogon DP tournament 1-0 because Heatran was heads up against a Powerful Herb/Dig Leafeon at 1-1 (and, obviously, this was the first time said battler even used his or her Leafeon), nobody could conceivably say "hey, that set works!" just because it was the final move used in an important tournament. Second, to "surprise the entire community" is to at once imply it's been used over and over, not just in one or two battles, and is therefore time-tested and therefore not really a gimmick anymore.
One last point, revisiting the response Boah was to late 2004's stall metagame: there IS no metagame yet. Who's to say that the Heatran that is seemingly the main and only validation of Powerful Herb/Dig Leafeon won't end up being BL, therefore making Powerful Herb/Dig Leafeon's consistent (one of Syrne's points) usefulness a virtual non-issue? Only time and experience can tell that. For now, sticking to the analyses made by those of us with 5-8 years of experience is seriously the best way to go...in addition to actually garnering some battling experience before trying to create movesets.
I see where you're comming from, but Syrene's point was that he did not wish to have Boah as member of the set of gimmicks. If that is so, I was looking for a place to change the definition to something we both can agree on. Unless we both agree on the definition, there is no point continuing the argument.
Well I can understand that if that was what I was trying to do. I'm not sure if you think that I was the one who suggested Iron Tail + Dig Leafeon, but I did not. (and it appears that the one who did is now banned anyway. So that specific argument is now terminated) On the other hand, I'm arguing a different point. My original point is that a gimmick battler can still be competitive, and is in fact one of the requirements to a gimmick.
Someone who uses gimmicks and constantly loses is not doing it correctly. With that said, I think gimmick sets should be under discussion, and as long as it is known that a gimmick set is a gimmick, then nothing is really a problem.
This I can agree on, which is somewhat the paradox of a gimmick. Once a gimmick becomes effective, it will become a standard of the metagame and is therefore no longer a shock to the community. Which is why I narrowed the definition to include "Funny", as humor captures best what a gimmick is. There are no "standard" jokes. Jokes must be unexpected and continuously generated to become fresh. A gimmick may be effective and a joke the first time it is used, and maybe a few times after that, but it won't be a gimmick as soon as everyone starts using it.
Take any "old" joke and you see what I mean. They just aren't a joke anymore when you know the punch line.
ARRG!!! I feel so conflicted...
I understand why some trainers want to use gimmicky sets as I am also a bit tired of seeing the same 6 Pokemon with the same 6 items using the same 24 moves. But I also understand why they use it, because it works and in the current metagame, thats generally what it takes to win.
Using a move that has been brought up again and again:
DIG:
Now Dig is one of my favorite move, but I only use it IN-GAME . That's because no one in-game is using EQ. But that said, Dig has no place in Competitive Gaming because almost everyone and their aunt has EQ. It's not that Dig is a bad move per se, like I said before, it just has no place in Competitive Battling.
So to end my little spiel, by all means, come up with creative movesets. But before you post it, put some serious thought into it. And if you do decide to post it here, be ready for some harsh criticism, and DON'T argue. Just don't.
I understand why some trainers want to use gimmicky sets as I am also a bit tired of seeing the same 6 Pokemon with the same 6 items using the same 24 moves. But I also understand why they use it, because it works and in the current metagame, thats generally what it takes to win.
Using a move that has been brought up again and again:
DIG:
Now Dig is one of my favorite move, but I only use it IN-GAME . That's because no one in-game is using EQ. But that said, Dig has no place in Competitive Gaming because almost everyone and their aunt has EQ. It's not that Dig is a bad move per se, like I said before, it just has no place in Competitive Battling.
So to end my little spiel, by all means, come up with creative movesets. But before you post it, put some serious thought into it. And if you do decide to post it here, be ready for some harsh criticism, and DON'T argue. Just don't.
This thread is kinda tl;dr so I don't know if this has already been said but...
We aren't telling you not to stop coming up with gimmick sets or using them - you can do that all you want. Just don't post them up here. Hell, I've come up with a bunch of different strange sets, some of which don't work, and some of which work incredibly well. I haven't posted any of them up here though, and especially not before testing them a lot.
I also want to restate what someone else said - that the sets posted in the analysis threads aren't the only things that can be used, they are just the best sets that can be used easily by people who need to use the guides to get into competitive Pokemon; however, no one will chastise you for deviating from those sets to find something that works better for you, it's only when you start posting about it and challenging the guides and the more experienced members that you start getting into trouble.
(By the way, I'm almost proud of writing that sentence, I just wish it could have gone over 100 words while still staying readable)
We aren't telling you not to stop coming up with gimmick sets or using them - you can do that all you want. Just don't post them up here. Hell, I've come up with a bunch of different strange sets, some of which don't work, and some of which work incredibly well. I haven't posted any of them up here though, and especially not before testing them a lot.
I also want to restate what someone else said - that the sets posted in the analysis threads aren't the only things that can be used, they are just the best sets that can be used easily by people who need to use the guides to get into competitive Pokemon; however, no one will chastise you for deviating from those sets to find something that works better for you, it's only when you start posting about it and challenging the guides and the more experienced members that you start getting into trouble.
(By the way, I'm almost proud of writing that sentence, I just wish it could have gone over 100 words while still staying readable)
On the other hand...
Seeing the Slaking topic reminded me of the special-sweeper Linoone topic a few days ago... IMO, those aren't "gimmicks" and they need to be taken care of.
Seeing the Slaking topic reminded me of the special-sweeper Linoone topic a few days ago... IMO, those aren't "gimmicks" and they need to be taken care of.
I'm the one that made the Linoone topic, and even I agree with that.
I still have no idea what I was thinking.
Dont post up your movesets/ideas for the whole world to see, If you come up with a good idea use it to defeat everyone in your path. You can post your team/movesets months after when the idea is well known and used up.