Take care about Ho-Oh and MMence also 56k, they're dangerous for Steel Team. Also i see the replay and i'm not convinced by the fact that arceus is "better" than Dialga or Aegi. They don't have exactly the same role (if you play Dilaga Support obv). But i admit that Arceus-Steel can be good. Ah and i recommend Air Balloon on Heatran, for Ground immunity wich is very helpfull for the theam.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Gods and Followers
- Thread starter Jajoken
- Start date
Hey I was wondering if I could get some suggestions. I wanted to try something new, I don't usually play a lot with Dark types, just don't have many I care for. I also have never used Yveltal. So I came up with a team under the thought of using Yveltal mid-late game. I wanted to remove items, put down hazards, and put up as much status effects as possible. I figured a more damaged team would be easier to stall out late game or revenge sweep. I've tried this team twice now and I've seen it do ok, though I feel like it could use some massive improvements.
Thanks
Code:
Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 132 HP / 28 Atk / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Rash Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- Heat Wave
Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Whirlwind
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 68 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave
Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 8 Def / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Roost
Sableye (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul PlayThanks
Is there a reason that this isnt treated like normal monotype, where they all share a single type?
its a completely different om
Gods and Followers means you only have to share One Type with your god, meaning that you could have a Lando-T and a Sableye on the same team.
Monotype means that you can only have One Typed shared throughout the whole party.
While your explanation is somewhat correct (Lando-T and Sab are incompatible), let me elaborate a bit more.
In gods and followers, you can share any type with your god and it's legal, regardless of which type is shared by other mons. For instance, you can have a team of Salamence (the god in this case), Latias, and Skarmory and it will be legal because Latias and Skarmory share 1 type with the god. You cannot use something like Azumarill though because it is neither Dragon or Flying type. If Latias was the god, you could still use Salamence as it's Dragon type, but you couldn't use Skarmory because it's not Dragon or Psychic type. In monotype, both "teams" would be illegal because every Pokemon has to share a single type with each other, which Latias and Skarmory obviously don't do. Hopefully this makes sense for you Kim il Saturn.
Just a nitpick but Lando and Sableye are available on yveltal teams..
on the subject of geomancy, i have spent forever working on possible checks to the move, and as hard as Dragalge tried, there was no way in hell it was making it, and Dragonite epically failed repeatedly. (NOTE: i am aware that these are both dragons, but i had figured since dragon seems to be a heavily played type, i should try to find reliable checks there seeing how they would apply for the majority of teams, see im not a total scrub)
going into flying types Thunderus with prankster can spread status which can really cripple Geo-Xern, but nothing else seemed to have the required bulk to do anything; the other flying type options really seemed one dimensional and lackluster where at least Thunderus-I's role is generic and wont set you back too much if you arent against a Xern team.
if you put 252 evs in Hp/SpD on a mew holding leftovers you get 2HKO'd, meaning that while you cant switch in on Xern, if you sac a mon to him you can theoretically get a T-wave off, giving psychic teams a fighting chance at least.
other than this for the three most common typings i have seen on the ladder (Dragon, Flying, and Psychic) this is what i was able to find for answers. seeing how the most common types only have two viable answers, i have to say that Geomancy isn't healthy simply due to the fact that it hinders diversity in the Meta, i mean if EVERY flying team and EVERY Psychic team runs a Thunderus or Mew, that isn't very diverse now is it? and does anyone really want to play an OM where if you don't run a certain mon you loose (see MRay). now i'm sure there are a few options i may have overlooked but lets face it. the reliable counters in these types are just plain lackluster or are outclassed by Thunderus (i hesitate to say mew here because even the set above isn't the BEST answer its just the first thing i came up with) now for other teams for gods like with types i haven't mentioned i'm not certain on what options they have but i highly doubt we will find much assistance, and even if we did it would be for an obscure god, and running a "anti Xern god/team" just dosen't seem very attractive IMO. anyways my two cents on the subject, i'm sure i left something out/overlooked something so let me know if i did, after all its a discussion, thats what we're supposed to do.
going into flying types Thunderus with prankster can spread status which can really cripple Geo-Xern, but nothing else seemed to have the required bulk to do anything; the other flying type options really seemed one dimensional and lackluster where at least Thunderus-I's role is generic and wont set you back too much if you arent against a Xern team.
if you put 252 evs in Hp/SpD on a mew holding leftovers you get 2HKO'd, meaning that while you cant switch in on Xern, if you sac a mon to him you can theoretically get a T-wave off, giving psychic teams a fighting chance at least.
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
other than this for the three most common typings i have seen on the ladder (Dragon, Flying, and Psychic) this is what i was able to find for answers. seeing how the most common types only have two viable answers, i have to say that Geomancy isn't healthy simply due to the fact that it hinders diversity in the Meta, i mean if EVERY flying team and EVERY Psychic team runs a Thunderus or Mew, that isn't very diverse now is it? and does anyone really want to play an OM where if you don't run a certain mon you loose (see MRay). now i'm sure there are a few options i may have overlooked but lets face it. the reliable counters in these types are just plain lackluster or are outclassed by Thunderus (i hesitate to say mew here because even the set above isn't the BEST answer its just the first thing i came up with) now for other teams for gods like with types i haven't mentioned i'm not certain on what options they have but i highly doubt we will find much assistance, and even if we did it would be for an obscure god, and running a "anti Xern god/team" just dosen't seem very attractive IMO. anyways my two cents on the subject, i'm sure i left something out/overlooked something so let me know if i did, after all its a discussion, thats what we're supposed to do.
I understand how it works, I don't understand what the point of allowing 2 types on one team and only 1 on others is, as it offers a needless advantage to pokemon like yveltal and dialga.
It's based upon the typing of the god. Many mons are dual typed, and if you choose to use a single-typed god that's up to you. Sure they may not be as strong in some cases, but gods like Xerneas and Primal Groudon (has to use mono-Ground) do just fine. It isn't a needless advantage, it is how the meta works, and even if it wasn't there is no easy way to remedy this, apart from making everything have followers with just their primary typing, which basically makes it monotype+an uber, and ceases to make this the unique and fun meta it is.
plus as it stands Geo-Xern is a massive threat in the meta, so much so that geomancy is getting suspected. so a mono fairy team that is at a "disadvantage" is demolishing teams. i see your point in a way but its just part of the meta, and for flavor reasons it makes sense. a god would make its followers in their own image, so sharing either type just fits better IMO
What's your point, exactly? That's how the metagame works.... Either contribute to the discussions at hand or keep it to yourself please. Now is definitely not the time to challenge the metagame's premise, considering it has been around for oh I don't know, 6 months or so.
I personally found Skarmory + another Defogger is the closest to an answer to Xerneas we get without using a god dedicated to stopping it like Aegislash, Primal Groudon, Ho-oh and Lugia. Sure, most of them are viable (I don't think PDon is viable that much at all in this meta though, but it's definitely better than lots of the 3 star-ers so that's probably why it hasn't dropped), but that just shows how impossible it is to beat. Xerneas' massive movepool has something that can potentially beat all of it's checks - Aromatherapy for TWavers like Thundurus (do note that although Thundurus doesn't like to take the risk, it can Taunt it), Klefki, The Pink Blobs Chansey and Blissey and Mew, if Psychic teams use it that way, Ingrain for phazers like the aforementioned Skarmory (least viable move IMO, hence why I consider Skarmory the best answer - Ingrain sees so little usage that it doesn't even show on the Usage stats in Ubers), and can run coverage to stop most other checks - for example, Water's best answer, Unaware Sp.Def Quagsire is beaten by Grass Knot.
The only Pokemon not named Aegislash that it's coverage can't beat at +2 is 248HP/52Sp.def Ho-Oh, which is a) a God, and b) massively weak to rocks. Even then it has to invest heavily to live +2 Thunder, AND Ho-Oh NEEDS rocks off the field AND it can't immediately OHKO. It also loses to the rare HP Rock Xerneas, so it has an 8% chance to lose even if it's EVs are all right. PDon loses if three layers of spikes and rocks are up (although I do believe it CAN beat it if it takes rocks damage before Reversion), which isn't exactly hard to do with Klefki on Xerneas teams.
But yeah, I feel that GeoXern is incredibly broken, only beaten in terms of sheer Overpoweredness by Mega Ray, and even then, it's giving it a run for it's money in terms of unstoppability after setting up and ease of setting up. The few checks it has can mostly be beaten by some utility move, meaning it's difficult to stop. It's typing is meh for a God, and it's not that powerful pre-Geomancy, but those are literally the only things keeping it from Mega Ray the prequel sequel, if that makes any sense.
Last edited:
I'm back from Seattle, and have caught up on the thread. Thanks for the great discussion on the suspect test! I'll be opening up the official council discussion and we'll reach a decision in the next two days. Feel free to keep discussing it in the thread until then.
In the meantime, I'd like to open back up discussion on the viability rankings, now including 2★ and 1★ placements (though you can still discuss all rankings). Check the last few pages for the format of nominations, but in short you want to describe a current ranking you disagree with and then pinpoint which aspects of a god make it better/worse than the viability rankings reflect. Keep in mind that, unlike normal viability rankings, you are rating the teams that can be made around the god, not just the god as a single Pokemon.
Here are my own nominations, centered around Arceus:
1★ -> 2★
1★ -> 2★
2★ -> 1★
Also, for the first time, I'm opening up nominations to non-Ubers gods. While Ubers gods will almost always be preferred due to to their innate strength, several OU and below gods have the typing and utility that make them worth using. For instance, Arceus-Rock is the only Ubers Rock type, so perhaps something like Tyranitar or Mega Diance would be worth using. However, I don't want the rankings to be flooded with non-Ubers gods, so these are the stipulations regarding such nominations:
In the meantime, I'd like to open back up discussion on the viability rankings, now including 2★ and 1★ placements (though you can still discuss all rankings). Check the last few pages for the format of nominations, but in short you want to describe a current ranking you disagree with and then pinpoint which aspects of a god make it better/worse than the viability rankings reflect. Keep in mind that, unlike normal viability rankings, you are rating the teams that can be made around the god, not just the god as a single Pokemon.
Here are my own nominations, centered around Arceus:
The team on the previous page made me realize that none of the other Steel gods have recovery, giving Arceus-Steel a niche in this metagame as a Steel god that can stick around longer. Monotyping sucks, but as one of the best types in the game, that's less of an issue than something like Arceus-Bug. It's 1★ placement was too hasty on my part, and clearly people are having success with it, so I'll suggest to start with a raise to 2★ and see how it does from there, although I could see another raise in the future.
Similar argument to the one above, although I haven't really seen it get much use or discussion. However it is a) the only Water god with recovery, b) the most physically defensive Water god, and c) a monotype that has already shown success with Kyogre. I'd like to test it out a bit, but 1★ seems too harsh for one of the best Arcues forms in Ubers and a decent god in its own right.
In Ubers, Arceus-Ice may be preferred to Kyurem-W as a single Pokemon, but as a god, forcing you into a mono-Ice team is rather unforgivable. It's not unusable, but the teams it creates are incredibly limited (similar to Arceus-Bug), so I think a drop is in order.
- You can only nominate an initial ranking of 3★ or lower.
- You must provide at least 3 replays of the god in action (they do not need to be your own replays).
- You must post the importable of a team using this god that has proven to be successful.
All good points pro-ban GeoXern. A huge issue is the typing restrictions, I noticed you mentioned Blissey/Chansey/Clefable and Mew, and the thing about using them to stop Xerneas is that you must have a normal/fairy/psychic god. Psychic gods have monotype teams (cuz mewtwo and deoxys) or are lugia or soul dew Lati@s. The former is a good option but the latter will have dragons meaning an easier time for the fairy team to defeat. Using Clefable means your god is Xerneas, and using Blissey/Chansey means your god is Ekiller Arceus or MegaKhan, basically. That means if you want to use the four best Xerneas stops, you only have one dual type god option and then 5 mono type options, one of which is Xerneas himself.
Very limiting, if I do say so myself.
god Quagsire is sad :(
I know I'm just nitpicking, but I don't know why people are saying Mew is the best answer to GeoXern for psychic teams when Jirachi exists? Not only can standard specially defensive Jirachi potentially AVOID THE 2HKO FROM GEOXERN, but can also actually beat it with thunderwave + iron head, AND is available for steel teams. Check out deez calcs:
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 176-210 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Xerneas's STAB doesn't 2HKO, and the best coverage move he has cannot even OHKO with a crit and SR damage lol. Meanwhile Jirachi can paralyze with thunderwave and regain HP with protect and hax Xern with Iron Head. If Jirachi switches into a moonblast then he can use protect to regain HP and have a fighting chance against it's coverage moves, so yes Xern DOES have a switch-in after a Geomancy boost. You can add attacking evs if you want Iron head to 2HKO, but you won't be able to handle Xerns attacks reliably and iron head already has a decent chance to 2HKO after rocks.
And by the way, most Xerns don't even run hidden power, chances are focus blast is Xern's best option against Jirachi, yeah just try hitting focus blast after paralysis and serene grace iron head, i dare you.
Does this mean Geomancy shouldn't be banned? No way, it's still ridiculously borked, I just had to let people know Mew isn't the best option for psychic teams. I mean Jirachi is already a great addition to both steel and psychic teams so it should be considered regardless i guess.
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 164-193 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 176-210 (40 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Xerneas's STAB doesn't 2HKO, and the best coverage move he has cannot even OHKO with a crit and SR damage lol. Meanwhile Jirachi can paralyze with thunderwave and regain HP with protect and hax Xern with Iron Head. If Jirachi switches into a moonblast then he can use protect to regain HP and have a fighting chance against it's coverage moves, so yes Xern DOES have a switch-in after a Geomancy boost. You can add attacking evs if you want Iron head to 2HKO, but you won't be able to handle Xerns attacks reliably and iron head already has a decent chance to 2HKO after rocks.
And by the way, most Xerns don't even run hidden power, chances are focus blast is Xern's best option against Jirachi, yeah just try hitting focus blast after paralysis and serene grace iron head, i dare you.
Does this mean Geomancy shouldn't be banned? No way, it's still ridiculously borked, I just had to let people know Mew isn't the best option for psychic teams. I mean Jirachi is already a great addition to both steel and psychic teams so it should be considered regardless i guess.
i didnt even think about skarmory so good call there, i agree completely. you mentioned several gods who have issues with Geo-Xern as well, which i didn't go into in my original post due to the fact that running a god as a specific answer to any threat in the OM is just bad IMO, and also highly unhealthy for the OM, again IMO. but yeah i agree especially on the comparison to Mega Ray.
I believe Mew was a preferred check because it can phaze Xerneas out and prevent it from setting up again (not many chances to Geo after the power herb is consumed). Rachi can't phaze and must rely on hax to KO, but with paralysis, serene flinch, and focus miss it's basically not hax, it's just impossible. However it is a great check for steel teams, so thank you for bringing it to our attention. It's more reliable than keeping Skarmory's sturdy in tact, which makes it a better check for steel teams.
I wouldn't compare GeoXern to MegaRay, simply because MegaRay doesn't need to setup to be overwhelmingly destructive. GeoXern doesn't have nearly the offensive stats, wide coverage and high BP reliable moves that MRay had, nor the capability of holding a life orb. MRay with setup was simply more than overwhelming, I don't even have a word for that. GeoXern is certainly a threat worth suspecting, but isn't comparable to the necessitative ban that occurred with MRay.
I was more referring to how easily they could both set up and sweep and be incredibly difficult to beat after setting up, but it's true Mega Ray is a TON more overwhelming if neither have the boost. The ability to 2HKO Max Defense normal Arceus after Rocks with unboosted LO Dragon Ascent is not to be taken lightly. Mega Ray's damage was crazy, both physically and specially, with and without the boost. Xerneas' damage before Geo is... Eh, OK, but not really on par with things like Palkia and base Ray. In terms of preserving the sweep, though, I honestly feel GeoXern is better off in this scenario, because it can beat Klefki's TWaveing shenanigans and potentially beat Phazers with Ingrain, something Mega Ray can't as easily claim.
I've seen this a couple times now, about Xerneas running Ingrain, and while it is a quite unique move to prevent losing your boosts, I can't see it fitting into a move set. Xerneas doesn't really get good 2 move coverage, and obviously needs a slot for Geomancy. Focus Blast and Moonblast have pretty good coverage, Poison types, Ho Oh, Chandelure, Aegi/Doublade, resist it and things like Lugia can stall out those hits all day. if you use Thunder to hit these mons, then you get beaten by PDon, Exca and many other steels, Mega Venu, and others. I'd like to see what this Xerneas set looks like because I don't think it would have a very effective sweep. (I'm not saying this particularly to you, I just want to see the set and this is just one of the times Ingrain was mentioned.)
Also, how does Xerneas beat Twave Klefki? It might kill the Klefki but certainly is open to revenge killing after the Twave
I noticed that too about Ingrain, which is why I consider Phazers the best check. However, just because it's uncommon doesn't mean it doesn't contribute to brokenness. Look at Greninja and Grass Knot for example - Rare, but still used from time to time.
On the Klefki thing, it usually has relatively sufficient bulk to live a decent chunk of revenge killers and uses Aromatherapy. Xerneas is pretty darned bulky, meaning unless your *Steel* mega's alive or you have some HEFTY fire power, it'll usually just Aroma back up and resume. It's a bit of a hurdle, but nothing it can't overcome if it's healthy enough (admittedly, that's a relatively big if).
By majority vote of the council...
Geomancy has been BANNED from Gods and Followers.
Relevant picture:
(Ladder will be updated later)
Wooo! Now then, time to go rebuild by MegaMence team now that GeoXern is gone.
On the notion of giving ranks to non-uber gods in the god slot, where to even start?
I've come up with creative teams before but in this case it seems like giving up a potential uber just for a pokemon with useful typing might hardly ever be a viable trade off. Obviously there are definitely teams out there that can do it, but I don't have any idea what works. Can anyone come up with some intuitive guesses on good choices for the god slot from OU and below? What god from OU and below could possibly be ranking worthy?
The only ideas I have in mind is skarmory or slowbro or starmie as the god, to grant extremely useful steel/flying typing or water/psych typing to your team and having their own recovery. Maybe ends up as 1 star rank for those niches but who knows. Feel free to shoot this down. I'm curious what other players think.
What other non-uber gods do you intuitively feel might be worthwhile to teambuild around? I'm mainly asking for pokemon theoretically viable so I can start making new teams with some preliminary direction in mind. Theorymon welcome...
I've come up with creative teams before but in this case it seems like giving up a potential uber just for a pokemon with useful typing might hardly ever be a viable trade off. Obviously there are definitely teams out there that can do it, but I don't have any idea what works. Can anyone come up with some intuitive guesses on good choices for the god slot from OU and below? What god from OU and below could possibly be ranking worthy?
The only ideas I have in mind is skarmory or slowbro or starmie as the god, to grant extremely useful steel/flying typing or water/psych typing to your team and having their own recovery. Maybe ends up as 1 star rank for those niches but who knows. Feel free to shoot this down. I'm curious what other players think.
What other non-uber gods do you intuitively feel might be worthwhile to teambuild around? I'm mainly asking for pokemon theoretically viable so I can start making new teams with some preliminary direction in mind. Theorymon welcome...