-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Goodra [QC 2/3]
- Thread starter darkie
- Start date
made some changes as per convo with Jukain and AccidentalGreed
KABOOM APPROVED 1/3
After some deliberation and debate on irc, we determined that Specially Defensive Goodra actually contributed very little to stall-based teams aside from taking hits (it's just...well, there), and Assault Vest was better than it overall despite being used on different teams (Modest Assault Vest Goodra takes less damage from typical special attacks than Leftovers Calm 252/252+ overall). Even more glaring is its lack of recovery, which limits its use on stall teams, and requires it on both sets anyways. Additionally, nobody in the thread has actually commented on its usefulness.
Rain Tank was removed approximately because of how difficult it is to actually maintain Goodra on rain teams in real time. It's your set Alexwolf, so we can hear you out, but at the moment, it just seems like players have to go to hell and back just to maintain both Goodra and the rain, and given how fast-paced the metagame and rain is, 7 turns to make Goodra useful didn't sound so hot.
SpD Lefties Goodra is not for stall, it's just a special pivot and can fit perfectly fine in balanced or bulky offensive teams, similarly to how other defensive pivots can. With Leftovers, Goodra handles way better in the long run Pokemon such as Mega Chariard Y, Thundurus, Keldeo, Greninja, Gengar, and Landorus, because Leftovers matters more than Assault Vest when not taking extremely powerful special hits. Not only this, but with Leftovers you can use Toxic, which is your best bet against many defensive Pokemon, and with EQ and Fire Blast handling most Steel-types, it's not hard at all to act as a good Toxic spreader.
As for Raint Tank or specially defensive Hydration, i don't get how it's hard to use or maintain. Bring Politoed in, and then you have 7 turns of instant full health recovery and status immunity with unreal special bulk, so switching in and walling stuff is very easy. And even if the metagame is fast-paced, rain balance and rain bulky offense is perfectly viable, and Goodra can fit just fine there.
As for Raint Tank or specially defensive Hydration, i don't get how it's hard to use or maintain. Bring Politoed in, and then you have 7 turns of instant full health recovery and status immunity with unreal special bulk, so switching in and walling stuff is very easy. And even if the metagame is fast-paced, rain balance and rain bulky offense is perfectly viable, and Goodra can fit just fine there.
I have a question, is Rest usable with the Assault Vest?
I had an idea for an Assault Vest Hydration Goodra with Rest, but I'm aware status moves are disabled with the Vest.
I already have a Goodra with the Vest and Sap Sipper, but is it worth having one with Rest and Hydration w/o the Vest instead?
I had an idea for an Assault Vest Hydration Goodra with Rest, but I'm aware status moves are disabled with the Vest.
I already have a Goodra with the Vest and Sap Sipper, but is it worth having one with Rest and Hydration w/o the Vest instead?
No, you can only run attacking moves while using the Assault Vest, meaning the combination of Assault Vest + Rest is illegal. :(
Rest can not be used with AV at all as it won't work.
Rest and Hydration isn't that good since the weather nerf. 6-7 turns isn't enough to abuse it properly and Rain Dance + Rest really wastes moveslots that could be used to abuse its great movepool.
I figured as much. It's probably too much of a hassle to maintain a Hydration Goodra unless on a rain team anyway, since weathers are nerfed in Gen VI.
I'm using an AV Goodra with EVs invested in HP/SpD and a Sassy nature, this thing takes hits LIKE A TANK. But it lacks recovery, so unless you plan on adding a Wish Pokemon to your team, I find this Pokemon's primary role is to switch in and eat SpATK hits.
Mine looks like:
Goodra @ Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 SpA
Nature: Sassy
Ability: Sap Sipper
-Fire Blast
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Dragon Tail
My team focuses on Stealth Rock and Intoxication however, so switching in to SpATK users is it's main role. Likely the opoonent won't have anything to knock away at my health without a physical move, so often to counter their switches, I have Dragon Tail in place, which with Stealth Rock, still does that extra bit of damage. It's also good against Calm Mind and Quicker Dance users.
Last edited:
I have to ask, why are Quiet/Sassy chosen over Modest/Calm for the AV set? How hard Dragon Tail hits shouldn't really be the deciding factor when its main purpose is phazing, and Earthquake hits Heatran just as efficiently with a nature that hinders attack. Does the extra damage from Dragon Tail/Earthquake (in Earthquake's case, when hitting things other than Heatran) really warrant the speed drop, and are we not outspeeding anything more with a neutral speed nature vs. a hindering one (uninvested)?
It's been a while, but I'm going to vouch for a Rain set similar to the one alexwolf mentioned. I've found Goodra to be a great Rain setter that can easily take advantage of the Rain it sets and stay healthy throughout a match. On a couple of Rain teams I use nowadays, I have the following set:
Rain Dance
########
name: Rain Dance
move 1: Dragon Pulse / Something else (Thunder, Muddy Water, w/e)
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Rest
move 4: Rain Dance
ability: Hydration
item: Damp Rock
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Dragon Pulse and Toxic along with the EVs can be played around with a little, but the basic premise is that Goodra makes a great and durable rain setter that I personally enjoy having on a team alongside Politoed and usually one of the Deoxys formes. I dislike Hydration sets that don't carry Rain Dance—I think it severely limits Goodra's role, as it can only stay in for as long as Rain Dance permits, and I also dislike more offensive sets as I feel they're done much better by your traditional Rain sweepers (Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar, etc.). What I particularly love about this set is its sheer longevity—many times, I've won matches only because Goodra could come in time and time again to set up Rain, unfazed by the status and weaker attacks usually thrown around by defensive teams. It's also better for Rain teams that might not be as HO-oriented as others—I'm not talking about Rain Stall, which is imo a dead strategy at this point—but teams that might focus more on the endgame, that may only run one or two Swift Swim sweepers, teams that tend to put a little more focus on wearing down the opponent prior to a sweep, which many players prefer.
tl;dr: Goodra makes a pretty good long-term reliable Rain Dance setter.
Rain Dance
########
name: Rain Dance
move 1: Dragon Pulse / Something else (Thunder, Muddy Water, w/e)
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Rest
move 4: Rain Dance
ability: Hydration
item: Damp Rock
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Dragon Pulse and Toxic along with the EVs can be played around with a little, but the basic premise is that Goodra makes a great and durable rain setter that I personally enjoy having on a team alongside Politoed and usually one of the Deoxys formes. I dislike Hydration sets that don't carry Rain Dance—I think it severely limits Goodra's role, as it can only stay in for as long as Rain Dance permits, and I also dislike more offensive sets as I feel they're done much better by your traditional Rain sweepers (Kingdra, Kabutops, Omastar, etc.). What I particularly love about this set is its sheer longevity—many times, I've won matches only because Goodra could come in time and time again to set up Rain, unfazed by the status and weaker attacks usually thrown around by defensive teams. It's also better for Rain teams that might not be as HO-oriented as others—I'm not talking about Rain Stall, which is imo a dead strategy at this point—but teams that might focus more on the endgame, that may only run one or two Swift Swim sweepers, teams that tend to put a little more focus on wearing down the opponent prior to a sweep, which many players prefer.
tl;dr: Goodra makes a pretty good long-term reliable Rain Dance setter.
I agree, in fact Modest Goodra still cleanly 2HKOs SpD Heatran with EQ and will actually outspeed an uninvested Heatran whereas vs a Sassy/Quiet Goodra, Heatran will get the chance to set up Rocks or use Toxic, Focus Blast doesn't reliably 2HKO Heatran unless Stealth Rocks are up and Heatran doesn't carry Protect.
No it's not. On the Assault Vest set, in the Team Options section, at the beginning it says that since it likes to switch out a lot that Rapid Spin and Defog is a good idea. Then at the end you say that since it has no form of recovery, it appreciates Rapid Spin and Defog. They can be combined into one point.
If the reasoning for Quiet/Sassy with Earthquake is the the ability to take down a wider range of specially defensive opponents and function (minimally) better as a mixed attacker, Mild/Gentle would be more beneficial. Goodra's speed (outspeeding other Goodra for starters, as Amaan pointed out) is far more valuable than its poor defense, of which I don't imagine a neutral defense nature vs. a hindering one would help Goodra survive any better for the most part.
Until even one calc is provided where Quiet/Sassy will get a significant OHKO/2HKO with EQ that Modest/Calm wouldn't get I don't see why it's Defense (albeit rather poor) should be compromised.
I don't know if this is true or not, but I'd mention Bisharp as a check to Gooey sets, just because Gooey activates Defiant. I dunno if that alone is enough to put it in C/C, but that should at least get a mention somewhere.
EDIT: Nvm, it was already there. I just couldn't see it
EDIT: Nvm, it was already there. I just couldn't see it
Last edited:
I agree. Bisharp should definitely get a mention somewhere in C&C, as with a little prior damage, Bisharp can OHKO both sets with Knock Off and double its attack by activating Defiant via Gooey:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 296-348 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It's certainly not a counter, as Goodra's Fire Blast OHKOes Bisharp 100% of the time. However, with a little prior damage, Bisharp can take advantage of Goodra AND take it out it one turn, almost like a double Moxie boost.
darkie get rid of Choice Specs please. Assault Vest is Goodra's niche; it is able to tank special hits of all kinds like a champ and utilize its excellent coverage to pack a punch in return. A Choice Specs set just squanders that, reducing Goodra's bulk by a sizable amount and losing it the versatility to take advantage of its great coverage. This is especially relevant against Pokemon like Azumarill, and many others, that can take advantage of Choice-locked Dragon attacks. It also faces enormous competition with even Life Orb variants of Latios, which boasts much better Speed and the ability to provide Defog support. Not worth it.