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That works well against Ingame AI and nothing else.
Sap sipper makes it pair decently with something like gastrodon or swampert that is just begging for a grass type attack. Walls ferrothorn to no end if you use A brave nature, but I don't see much use to that particular niche unless you have infestation and don't mind seventeen thousand layers of spikes
That works well against Ingame AI and nothing else.
Sap sipper makes it pair decently with something like gastrodon or swampert that is just begging for a grass type attack. Walls ferrothorn to no end if you use A brave nature, but I don't see much use to that particular niche unless you have infestation and don't mind seventeen thousand layers of spikes
That acctually sounds like a great idea I mean there's not too many grass type common moves out there bit he does completely wall ferrothorn also u can avoid the spikes with fire blast
The problem with trying to bait Grass is that it is not only a rare attacking type, but also, it's very very predictable. In Gen 4 Gyarados+Electivire was used for Electrics, but that didn't actually work, because it was too predictable. And that was BEFORE Team Preview.
I just thought of a Goodra set:
Goodra Leftovers
Sap Sipper, Careful (+SpDef, -SpAtk)
252HP 252SpDef 4 Atk
~ Toxic
~ Infestation
~ Dragon Claw / Outrage
~ Power Whip / Aqua Tail
Is it any good? It being a physical attacker makes use of Sap Sipper, it can Toxic a poke then trap it in with Infestation.
I just thought of a Goodra set:
Goodra Leftovers
Sap Sipper, Careful (+SpDef, -SpAtk)
252HP 252SpDef 4 Atk
~ Toxic
~ Infestation
~ Dragon Claw / Outrage
~ Power Whip / Aqua Tail
Is it any good? It being a physical attacker makes use of Sap Sipper, it can Toxic a poke then trap it in with Infestation.
On paper, Toxic+Infestation trapping sets look promising but honestly, it fails to deliver consistently. Lack of reliable recovery, predictability, and an easily walled moveset hamper its performance. I think for me, the best way to utilize an Infestation set is by taking a more offensive route. In essence, you are just looking to bring down a certain wall so why not just do it swiftly by using Goodra's nice coverage options?
Something along the lines of Goodra @Assault vest [ Infestation / Dragon Pulse / Fire Blast / (Thunderbolt/Sludge Bomb) ] is what you're looking for.
I've been running this set on a team that's capped at 1900, which isn't a huge feat but I think it's pretty good
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Trait: Gooey
Nature: Modest
EV's: 252 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 Def
- Infestation
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast
I tried running Magnezone on my team to trap steels because Gengarite got banned so it screwed me over pretty bad. Magnezone sucked. I was looking for trappers and I saw Azumarill but if I'm trapping steels fairy won't work. I knew Goodra got infest due to in-game so I just slapped a move set on it, and it works really well, well enough that I scrapped my designated special wall t-tar and I'm using this thing as a special defensive pivot and as a way to keep momentum or stop theirs. I don't have calcs right now, I'm on my phone, but I could probably edit them in tomorrow.
E: Calcs
252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 229-273 (59.6 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 500-590 (151 - 178.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 242-288 (63 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 103-123 (26.8 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 262-310 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I've been running something similar to use as a tank. I opt to use Earthquake over Infestation as it lets me hit steels that can take a Fire Blast (Heatran is easily OHKOed). (I also use a Sassy nature to avoid the Atk drop).
Not true. GyaraVire worked because your options against a Gyarados who was about to sweep you were either Stone Miss or Thunderbolt. Guess which one most players found more reliable? Sometimes you just don't have a choice, even at the cost of predictability.
GyaraVire worked against inexperienced players. Experienced players at least knew how to be careful. And similar to Electivire, Goodra can't really use the Attack boost. Electivire couldn't really use its Speed boost either.
Regardless, Sap Sipper is mostly better than Hydration. Goodra can RestTalk well to get rid of status, and Sap Sipper gives it an important immunity to Spore. It can pull HydrationRest off somewhat decently, but I'm not particularly thrilled about having Goodra have to set up its own Rain to do so.
I just thought of a Goodra set:
Goodra Leftovers
Sap Sipper, Careful (+SpDef, -SpAtk)
252HP 252SpDef 4 Atk
~ Toxic
~ Infestation
~ Dragon Claw / Outrage
~ Power Whip / Aqua Tail
Is it any good? It being a physical attacker makes use of Sap Sipper, it can Toxic a poke then trap it in with Infestation.
Read the other pages if you can. It doesnt work very well and the time it takes to kill something you could have just 2HKOd it with special attacks and modest nature. I tried it online many times and it sounds good, but pretty much never works. It might work on a rain team so you can heal, but most pokes will switch out of goodra to a physical attacker.
Regardless, Sap Sipper is mostly better than Hydration. Goodra can RestTalk well to get rid of status, and Sap Sipper gives it an important immunity to Spore. It can pull HydrationRest off somewhat decently, but I'm not particularly thrilled about having Goodra have to set up its own Rain to do so.
So I've gone through all 28 pages of this thread, and I have some thoughts. Much of it is in regards to this post, as it was probably the most productive post in the thread:
With 236 HP and a Calm Nature, Goodra hits 380 HP/ 553 Special Defense factoring in the boost from wearing the Assault Vest, which is just enough to guarantee that you avoid a 3HKO from Life Orb Greninja's Ice Beam after Stealth Rock: (36.84 - 43.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock.
With 52 EVs in Speed, Goodra hits 209, and is capable of outrunning notable threats like Togekiss and Rotom-W.
The rest of the EVs were thrown into Special Attack, giving him a stat 311, and with that investment, is capable of 2HKO'ing 236 HP/ 0 SpD (Bold) Togekiss with either Sludge Bomb or Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock: (40.75 - 48.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
vs. Goodra
252 SpA (Timid) Starmie w/Life Orb Ice Beam (90 Base Power): (23.94 - 28.68%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock.
252 SpA (Timid) Greninja w/Life Orb Ice Beam (90 Base Power): (36.84 - 43.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA (Timid) Latios w/Life Orb Draco Meteor (130 Base Power): (62.36 - 73.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
252 SpA (Naive) Sheer Force Landorus w/Life Orb Earth Power: (26.05 - 30.78%) -- 14.89% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock.
Goodra vs.
Thunderbolt (90 Base Power) vs. 248 HP/ 0 SpD Togekiss: (40.75 - 48.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Thunderbolt (90 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 0 SpD Azumarill: (50.49 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Flamethrower (90 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 0 SpD (Impish) Gourgiest: (57.75 - 68.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Flamethrower (90 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 140 SpD (Careful) Trevenant: (42.24 - 49.73%) -- 86.72% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Draco Meteor (130 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 0 SpD (Timid) Latias: (80.76 - 95.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Draco Meteor (130 Base Power) vs. 248 HP/ 0 SpD (Bold) Rotom-W: (57.42 - 67.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Hidden Power [Ground] (60 Base Power) vs. 248 HP/ 252 SpD (Calm) Heatran: (40.51 - 48.83%) -- 16.02% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sacrifices some bulk for a Special Attack stat of 350, just 9 points shy of Timid Latios' 359.
Greninja now has a 71.48% chance of 2HKO'ing you after Stealth Rock.
In exchange, you are now guaranteed to 2HKO 248 HP/ 252 SpD (Calm) Heatran after Stealth Rock with Hidden Power [Ground], guaranteed to 2HKO Trevenant after Stealth Rock with Flamethrower, and pick off bulky Pokemon like 248 HP/ 232 DEF (Bold) Rotom-W with Draco Meteor while they are still in good health (dealing 64% minimum to him), among other things.
vs. Goodra
252 SpA (Timid) Starmie w/Life Orb Ice Beam (90 Base Power): (27.15 - 32.25%) -- 65.01% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock.
252 SpA (Timid) Greninja w/Life Orb Ice Beam (90 Base Power): (40.59 - 48.92%) -- 71.48% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
252 SpA (Timid) Latios w/Life Orb Draco Meteor (130 Base Power): (69.89 - 82.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
252 SpA (Naive) Sheer Force Landorus w/Life Orb Earth Power: (29.3 - 34.67%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock.
Goodra vs.
Thunderbolt (90 Base Power) vs. 248 HP/ 0 SpD Togekiss: (45.57 - 54.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Thunderbolt (90 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 0 SpD Azumarill: (57.42 - 67.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Flamethrower (90 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 0 SpD (Impish) Gourgiest: (65.24 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Flamethrower (90 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 140 SpD (Careful) Trevenant: (47.05 - 55.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Draco Meteor (130 Base Power) vs. 252 HP/ 0 SpD (Timid) Latias: (91.2 - 107.69%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Draco Meteor (130 Base Power) vs. 248 HP/ 0 SpD (Bold) Rotom-W: (64.35 - 76.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Hidden Power [Ground] (60 Base Power) vs. 248 HP/ 252 SpD (Calm) Heatran: (46.75 - 55.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
I've done some calcs of my own, and after reading through, here are my thoughts.
• Assuming Calm, Flamethrower > Fire Blast > Sludge Bomb > Sludge Wave, depending on if you're running 252 or 220 Special Attack; There isn't anything notable that I have noticed that Fire Blast will allow you to 1-2HKO before Flamethrower if you are running 252 EV's in Special Attack. Flamethrower gets the job done in the same amount of hits most of the time, and it is much more reliable. If you're running 220 Special Attack, Ferrothorn has a high chance of surviving with 252/0 Neutral Nature, and any investment in Special Defense at all basically relegates you to a 2HKO, but Fire Blast can cover this if you feel its necessary. That being said, specially defensive or balanced varients, such as 252/126/126 Careful will run in to the same problems with Fire Blast as it did with Flamethrower. It's a similar story with Skarmory. You would need Fire Blast to ensure a high chance at a 1HKO on Skarmory with Stealth Rock regardless if you fully invested or not. Scizor always dies regardless, as does Magnezone. Unless Klefki goes heavy in to Special Defense, you're most likely to 2HKO with Flamethrower and Stealth Rock. Fire Blast will always 2HKO. A lot of this applied to Gourgeist and Trevenant as well.
Keep in mind that these calcs assume x2 Flamethrower. If you want to secure a kill on non-Steels, Flamethrower + Draco Meteor should work.
The general consensus I am seeing about Sludge Bomb and Wave is that they aren't hitting anything important that Flamethrower and Thunderbolt wouldn't hit already for you. Certain notable Pokemon like Sylveon that Sludge Bomb/Wave would hit don't do enough damage to warrant it as an option. 252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. However, this being said, I do feel that Sludge Bomb is worth it over Sludge Wave because the 30% chance to Poison > 5+ Base Power. At least with this you could try to hope to Poison a wall in tight situations.
• There is no point in running HP Ground, as even with a -Special Attack nature, Earthquake hits harder
• If you're doing the standard 4 attack moves with Earthquake, Sassy/Quiet are not required. The boost in power is negligible, and the only real reason you're running Earthquake as an option is to hit Heatran for x4 SE. No matter what EV's or Nature you use, it will always be a 2HKO.
• The only time Sassy/Quiet should be considered is when you are running a mixed set, with Power Whip, Aqua Tail, et cetera. I did not look in to calcs for this to see if running either of these over some of the other coverage moves are worth it. Has anyone done that?
• Calm > Modest. Without Calm, or some EV investment in to Special Defense, Latios has a chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock, while you always have the ability to OHKO regardless of Stealth Rock. Calm also lets you survive 3 guaranteed hits against Greninja, and will reliably KO with Flamethrower + 1 Life Orb Recoil + Stealth Rock. In Cshadow's example for Modest, I don't think being able to reliably 2HKO Trevenant with Flamethrower is worth the switch from Calm since with Calm you can always 2HKO with Flamethrower + Draco Meteor. Even if you don't want to have that -2 stage drop after, Fire Blast will 2HKO always with SR, and has a 41.8% chance to 2HKO with just 220 Special Attack Fire Blast and no SR. All of this is taking in mind a 252/252 Careful Trevenant, which I am not sure if that's what the standard is nowadays. And as we previously mentioned, increasing HP Ground's power is irrelevant.
• By not dropping Speed with Sassy/Quiet, you can outspeed uninvested Heatran and Venusaur, tie with Mandibuzz, Dragonite, Mamoswine, and Togekiss. There are probably more, but Serebii doesn't have it up. With the 52 Speed EV's mentioned by Cshadow, you are able to outspeed uninvested Gyarados, normal Gourgeist, Cresselia, Suicune, Kingdra, Heracross/Mega Heracross. I think at this point 12-16 EV's to outspeed Gyarados would be the best bet.
• I think Gooey and Sap Sipper are both viable, though I believe Sap Sipper is the better alternative in more situations. Being able to be immune to grass attacks from Ferrothorn, Trevenant, Gourgeist, Breloom, Venusaur, and immune to status moves like Spore, Sleep Powder, and Leech Seed is very valuable. That said, if your team is heavily equipped to deal with most of these threats already, Sap Sipper might provide some situations where it is useful.
I think it would be worth to discuss some notable speed tiers.
I decided to test a sligoo set
sliggoo Evolite
Hydration
Bold
252 defence 252 Hp 4 SpD
rest
Rain dance
Toxic
infestation
Would this be a good set? Because I know sliggoos defended and SpD get way higher than goodras with evolite so he could be an ok wall he has no attacking moves one because his movepool stinks and two because his attacking stats stink too
I decided to test a sligoo set
sliggoo Evolite
Hydration
Bold
252 defence 252 Hp 4 SpD
rest
Rain dance
Toxic
infestation
Would this be a good set? Because I know sliggoos defended and SpD get way higher than goodras with evolite so he could be an ok wall he has no attacking moves one because his movepool stinks and two because his attacking stats stink too
Eviolite Sliggoo has better defenses, but far worse HP, and no offenses. It is also slower. Let's check the "bulkiness" (HP*defensive stat) of both mons, assuming your EV spread:
So...in exchange for all your offensive presence and Leftovers recovery, Eviolite Sliggoo gains...10% physical bulk and about 3.5% special bulk. Factoring in Leftovers, Goodra has it better.
I prefer using a max special defense/HP set with dragon pulse, flamethrower, thunderbolt and sludge bomb. Run assault vest and gooey with a calm nature and you're good to go basically, because you really don't need your Goodra to do anything but tank special hits, deal a little bit of damage, anger the opponent when they realize their gengar's dazzling gleams wont be enough to take out this beast, and occasionally lower the foe's speed (sometimes before it faints). A physical Goodra is gimmicky and hydration isn't worth losing gooey over (sap sipper is a joke). Overall, you've got yourself a premier special wall ready for battle (not a physical or mixed wall, leave that to the OG pros :P).
I prefer using a max special defense/HP set with dragon pulse, flamethrower, thunderbolt and sludge bomb. Run assault vest and gooey with a calm nature and you're good to go basically, because you really don't need your Goodra to do anything but tank special hits, deal a little bit of damage, anger the opponent when they realize their gengar's dazzling gleams wont be enough to take out this beast, and occasionally lower the foe's speed (sometimes before it faints). A physical Goodra is gimmicky and hydration isn't worth losing gooey over (sap sipper is a joke). Overall, you've got yourself a premier special wall ready for battle (not a physical or mixed wall, leave that to the OG pros :P).
252 SDef EVs adds far too little to Goodra's bulk for such a large investment. Heck, even using Calm over Modest doesn't add a whole lot.
Also, Sap Sipper is more than viable, especially if your team doesn't have a Sleep absorber. Gooey only works on physical attackers, and having Goodra take on both physical and special attackers will overwhelm it.
252 SDef EVs adds far too little to Goodra's bulk for such a large investment. Heck, even using Calm over Modest doesn't add a whole lot.
Also, Sap Sipper is more than viable, especially if your team doesn't have a Sleep absorber. Gooey only works on physical attackers, and having Goodra take on both physical and special attackers will overwhelm it.
I think Gooey, while not as commonly useful, still has a purpose. You can use Goodra to come in after its taken a lot of damage and sacrifice it to get that -Speed drop so that you can come in next turn and revenge whatever took Goodra out, or force it to switch so you can set up.
I've been using this guy quite a lot lately and I've been very impressed; pure walls, such as Blissey, are increasingly inferior in this metagame and constantly (especially against VoltTurn) leave you in situations where there is no good move; Goodra doesn't have this problem because it's capable of dishing out serious damage against most offensive teams. The only issue I've had is that, while Assault Vest is typically superior to Leftovers, its use makes you very vulnerable to hazards when you're spending a lot of time tanking Volt Switches and then being forced out again.
I've been using this guy quite a lot lately and I've been very impressed; pure walls, such as Blissey, are increasingly inferior in this metagame and constantly (especially against VoltTurn) leave you in situations where there is no good move; Goodra doesn't have this problem because it's capable of dishing out serious damage against most offensive teams. The only issue I've had is that, while Assault Vest is typically superior to Leftovers, its use makes you very vulnerable to hazards when you're spending a lot of time tanking Volt Switches and then being forced out again.
This scizor is a fairly effective defog user that possesses more bulk than Skarmory (both physically and specially: 70/140/100 defenses on M-Scizor) as well as (imo) a better set of resistances (ice is crucial), one less weakness, decent offenses that can actually be used to threaten the opponent, the ability to keep momentum with U-Turn, and a good supporting move in Knock Off. Additionally, Mega-Scizor has good synergy with Goodra for the defensive core of a balanced team, able to take most of the physical hits that Goodra wants to shy away from. M-Scizor and Goodra (especially with sap sipper) both have phenomenal synergy with Rotom-W as well (with the nice benefit of giving the team a talonflame check.
So, basically, Goodra/M-Scizor/Rotom-W could be a fairly effective core on a balanced/bulky offense team.
Im thinking leftovers may be better than assault vest because the only recovery move goodra gets is rest which is pointless unless using hydration and even if using a hydration set assault vest is useless. Overall leftovers is best on goodra.
