It has a higher collective chance of dealing more damage than Aqua Jet, so yes.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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It's less of a chance and more of a guaranteed. 2 is the minimum you can hit, which is 30 BP and unlucky, and 25% less damage. Generally you will get 3 hits for 45 damage, 12.5% more than Aqua Jet. If you get 4 hits, that's 60BP, 50% more than Aqua Jet. And if you get all 5 it's 75BP, 87.5% more than Aqua Jet. It's pretty low-risk high-reward.
Imagine it like choosing between thunder and thunderbolt, one can miss a lot but the other does less damage. Now imagine that when you "missed" with thunder, you only did 25% less damage. That's basically how Water Shuriken works. Even if you don't manage to get the 3 hits, which is unlikely, you're only losing out on 25% damage on that attack (10BP).
Also, he can't learn Aqua Jet anyway.
I think Greninja is one of the best offensive Pokemon that we've ever seen. He looks statistically weak, but the coverage moves that are so often lacking on some offensive will always have a STAB boost. More importantly he's not at all affected by the Hidden Power nerf. That combined with his high speed and effective, if not overwhelming, Attack and Special Attack means Greninja is going to be a massive bitch when he's on the opposing side of the field.
Just want to add that Protean is pretty fun to play around. Opponent thinks Fighting will be super-effective, you use Toxic/Extrasensory/HP Ghost. Opponent uses Electric, use Grass Knot. And so on.
Greninja has excellent speed, meaning it'll go almost guaranteed first. No point Choicing it though, since variety of moves is highly appreaciated.
Greninja has excellent speed, meaning it'll go almost guaranteed first. No point Choicing it though, since variety of moves is highly appreaciated.
What I like about Shadow Sneak, on top of it being a priority move, it gives him an immunity to Fighting until you change your move. My silly Blaziken High Jumped Kicked himself to death after Greninja turned its typing to Ghost by using Shadow Sneak u.u
As far as Choice Specs goes, I honestly think that would be better suited to Torrent users instead, but that's just me.
As far as Choice Specs goes, I honestly think that would be better suited to Torrent users instead, but that's just me.
So what do we think the general consensus on Greninja's set is?? I'm really interested in this Spikes/Toxic Spikes setups but he's so squishy. Would there be one of those two that would be best? I'd think Toxic Spikes cuz you only need one use for effectiveness and you're not guaranteed more than 2 shots with this guy.
I think the Offensive Spiker will be one of its best sets. Having STAB on everything is so amazing for something that needs to be able to beat Rapid Spinners, and it can do just that. In fact, Greninja can beat every single OU viable spinner with the correct moveset. Starmie is destroyed by Dark Pulse, Forretress dies to an HP Fire and takes heavy damage from a Hydro Pump, Excadrill falls to a Hydro Pump as well, Tentacruel is 2HKOed by Extrasensory, and Avalugg has shit Special Defense so it obviously can't take a Hydro Pump either. I still see the Deoxys forms being MUCH more common because...well...they're amazing at laying hazards, but unlike Greninja, they can't really afford tailoring their moveslot to try and beat every Rapid Spinner without losing out on valuable utility. And of course, they don't get STAB on all of their coverage moves. Toxic Spikes are cool and all on Greninja, but Spikes are more beneficial for a larger majority of teams, and Tentacruel is still a better user of T-Spikes because of is bulk and Rapid Spin, so there's that. I don't really see many people running T-Spikes and Spikes on the same set, as it isn't bulky enough to pull that off, and it loses out on valuable coverage.
Speaking of which, why the hell isn't a Spiker set in the OP of this thread? It's one of its best niches in OU.
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How much does Extrasensory do against physically defensive Tentacruel?
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 250-296 (68.87 - 81.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's quite impressive actually. I completely forgot this thing even learned Extrasensory. It can't OHKO, but Tentacruel can only spin on it once. And on top of that, it's not an entirely wasted moveslot when facing teams that lack Tentacruel, because it's actually a cool weapon against Fighting-types like Keldeo, who is OHKOed by it! The more I think about this thing, the more I realize the potential Greninja has. It's just such a cool Pokemon.
Greninja pitiably doesn't Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, but with his ability, it might've been a bit much. The good news is that he does get Toxic Spikes, so defensive teams might get some use out of him as a check to offensive Pokemon and a couple of quick layers in a pinch. Scald/U-turn/Spikes/Tspikes w/Leftovers, I'm thinking. Offense would use a similar set with like Hydro Pump over Scald and Dark Pulse over Tspikes.
I have an idea for a lead Greninja set, but I don't know how effective it would be. I need damage calcs for certain things I can try and iron it out.
If someone could calculate the following I'd really appreciate it:
4 Atk Greninja U-turn vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie
252 SpA Greninja Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress*
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory*
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran*
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan*
*These with Surf and Hydro Pump as well please.
If someone could calculate the following I'd really appreciate it:
4 Atk Greninja U-turn vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie
252 SpA Greninja Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress*
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory*
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran*
252 SpA Greninja Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan*
*These with Surf and Hydro Pump as well please.
Why don't you just use the calc yourself? It's easy to find.
Edit working on calcs for you.
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Because none of the calcs I can find have gen VI pokemon on them.
You just make a custom mon mimicking greninja's stats then. Nonetheless, I am doing calcs for you now.
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 330-393 (102.16 - 121.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 133-159 (41.17 - 49.22%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 166-198 (45.73 - 54.54%) -- 6.25% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 125-148 (34.43 - 40.77%) -- 59.25% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 325-383 (91.8 - 108.19%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 278-329 (85.01 - 100.61%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 299-354 (77.66 - 91.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 658-775 (171.35 - 201.82%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And I forgot about changing type manually to account for protean, so these should be correct.
4 Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 198-237 (61.3 - 73.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb (custom) Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 250-296 (68.87 - 81.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I only used hydro pump as its really the most viable water move to run on him.
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I don't see choiced protean greninja is a bad option. He has a really good speed and decent offensive stats, and it would be unique in the sense that he doesn't use "coverage moves", since every move he uses has STAB. Hydro pump, dark pulse, waterfall, ice beam, extrasensory, grass knot, HP or even return, have decent power to use it in a choice set. Hell, you could even use a set that doesn't use water or dark attacks! (Although that would be a real waste, since both are great offensively). And let's not forget he can learn at least 3 priority moves (all of the physical, though), wich may be an interesting revenge killer with a choice band equiped.
Even if you can trick medicham, mienshao and hitmonlee to smash themselves against a wall with a tricky shadow sneak, I think greninja won't be able to tank many things with that poor defenses, even if they're resisted hits. If you want to have a protean tank, probably Kecleon with its nasty special defense would be more useful (and he has sucker punch and shadow sneak), but even that would be too gimmicky. Jokes aside, has anybody tried to breed Sucker punch in greninja?
Even if you can trick medicham, mienshao and hitmonlee to smash themselves against a wall with a tricky shadow sneak, I think greninja won't be able to tank many things with that poor defenses, even if they're resisted hits. If you want to have a protean tank, probably Kecleon with its nasty special defense would be more useful (and he has sucker punch and shadow sneak), but even that would be too gimmicky. Jokes aside, has anybody tried to breed Sucker punch in greninja?
I can't thank you guys enough for that.
Anyway, here's my theoretical Greninja lead set. Let me know if there's anything that I could switch around to make it more effective.
Greninja@Leftovers
Ability:Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpD)/Hasty (+Spe, -Def)
-Spikes/Toxic Spikes
-U-Turn
-Scald/Hydro Pump
-Dark Pulse/Extrasensory
The idea behind this set is getting whatever hazard you'd prefer up, and kill anything that tries to get rid of them. The need for U-Turn is pretty obvious. The choice between Scald and Hydro Pump depends on if you'd rather eek out 2HKOs on other common entry setters like those mentioned in the Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump calculations above. The choice between Dark Pulse and Extrasensory depends on what your team needs more. If you need Starmie dead yesterday, then Dark Pulse is your go to, but Extrasensory hurts Tentacruel hard, and gives a little more practicality beyond killing spinners as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Thoughts?
Anyway, here's my theoretical Greninja lead set. Let me know if there's anything that I could switch around to make it more effective.
Greninja@Leftovers
Ability:Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpD)/Hasty (+Spe, -Def)
-Spikes/Toxic Spikes
-U-Turn
-Scald/Hydro Pump
-Dark Pulse/Extrasensory
The idea behind this set is getting whatever hazard you'd prefer up, and kill anything that tries to get rid of them. The need for U-Turn is pretty obvious. The choice between Scald and Hydro Pump depends on if you'd rather eek out 2HKOs on other common entry setters like those mentioned in the Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump calculations above. The choice between Dark Pulse and Extrasensory depends on what your team needs more. If you need Starmie dead yesterday, then Dark Pulse is your go to, but Extrasensory hurts Tentacruel hard, and gives a little more practicality beyond killing spinners as mentioned earlier in the thread.
Thoughts?
So just a thought with the whole spikes vs toxic spikes slot on a protean greninja since it does have the defenses of wet tissue paper wouldnt it be wiser (especially if going against a fighting type) to use toxic spikes there for changing greninjas type to poison which is resistant to grass (as well as fighting) moves instead of just using spikes making greninja a ground type which would still render it at the mercy of grass
Huh, I didn't even notice it got Toxic Spikes, but apparently it does.
It'll really be situational, since the two have very different uses. A team that can make use of Toxic Spikes rather than Spikes will probably prefer a more defensive setter like Tentacruel, but it's an option.
Regular spikes stops electric moves cold though. It really depends on what your team needs more.
So with the Defog news, how will this affect Greninja's sets? Spikes is basically wasteful now. Toxic Spikes is a bit better but eh. SR is the only hazard that can't be taken down super easy now.
Defog isn't any more game-changing than Rapid Spin; it's harder to block and has better distribution, but it comes with a hefty cost. Spike stacking is, as always, a tad precarious if your opponent can do something about it, but it's not a waste, and the move can be effective even with only a layer or two.
You're forgetting that after you lay one layer of spikes, most every user of Defog can switch in unharmed and remove them, since most defog users are flying. Especially if that user is someone like Crobat, Scizor, Zapdos or Latias.
Rapid Spin is infinitely more restrictive than Defog is. There was one spinner with a recovery move and it was best used as an offensive spinner anyway (Starmie), so spinning was even harder. Now we've got shit like Skarmory, Gliscor, and Scizor who can remove hazards. Yes, there's a downside, but getting rid of hazards is no longer preventable, which is huge and I don't think you considered that.
I think greninja can counter some defogers. How about:
Greninja w/lifeorb
Ice beam/taunt(?)
Hp fire
Spikes/tspikes
Uturn
Aside from brobat greninja outspeeds most mons with defog and can hit them on the switch. Has problems with empoleon though...does taunt shut defog?Also how much does protean icebeam do to latias?
Greninja w/lifeorb
Ice beam/taunt(?)
Hp fire
Spikes/tspikes
Uturn
Aside from brobat greninja outspeeds most mons with defog and can hit them on the switch. Has problems with empoleon though...does taunt shut defog?Also how much does protean icebeam do to latias?
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