just out of curiosity since greninja does remind us of infernape would a mixed attacker set be viable
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Pokémon Greninja
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It seems like the only thing he gains from splitting EVs would be acrobatics, so I would say no.
Infernape has Close Combat so he can invest less attack EVs and deal enough damage to still break walls. Greninja's move pool isn't vast enough to do that.
Infernape has Close Combat so he can invest less attack EVs and deal enough damage to still break walls. Greninja's move pool isn't vast enough to do that.
Sorry for my absence guys, I had some problems these days, but now i'm on.
Updated first post with Water Sport and Camouflage, thanks to all of you!
And now, this is my opinion about Greninja's competitive set.
More usable Greninja's set are Orb are Protean Orber (my OP had them since opening) and Fast Spikes. Them:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
This set imo will be the standard of all Greninja.
Greninja @ Focus Sash / Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
Focus Sash allow to set 1 or 2 layer of Spikes, and that is terrible for opponent.
I don't like any Scarf set on Greninja, but why? Easy, because he lose a lot of potential that Orb + Protean can give you. Yes, with Scarf set he will be a revengekiller, but his moves will lose a lot of effectiveness. Same as Specs set. Yes, with Specs can do a lot of damage with Protean, but next turn you have to switch immediately if you don't want to lose Greninja very early. I think that Greninja MUST be free with his moveset, because it is much more versatile, and do a lot more damage.
Updated first post with Water Sport and Camouflage, thanks to all of you!
And now, this is my opinion about Greninja's competitive set.
More usable Greninja's set are Orb are Protean Orber (my OP had them since opening) and Fast Spikes. Them:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
This set imo will be the standard of all Greninja.
Greninja @ Focus Sash / Leftovers
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
Focus Sash allow to set 1 or 2 layer of Spikes, and that is terrible for opponent.
I don't like any Scarf set on Greninja, but why? Easy, because he lose a lot of potential that Orb + Protean can give you. Yes, with Scarf set he will be a revengekiller, but his moves will lose a lot of effectiveness. Same as Specs set. Yes, with Specs can do a lot of damage with Protean, but next turn you have to switch immediately if you don't want to lose Greninja very early. I think that Greninja MUST be free with his moveset, because it is much more versatile, and do a lot more damage.
Looks excellent. I agree that LO should be first by a large margin, now that we know of Defog's potential to ruin a suicide Spiker. The offensive spiker set is still a solid choice though since he can obliterate common spinners (and defoggers). One thing I think you should add are these damage calcs, since there are obviously a lot of doubters who have no idea just how powerful Protean is. Maybe you could add the calcs I made in my earlier post alongside the LO set?
Also this one is just to showcase his strongest attack:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 195-229 (48.26 - 56.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not even max/max+ TTar in Sand can switch in and avoid the 2HKO.
I really don't think Grass Knot should be missed. It's stronger than Hydro Pump against Tyranitar and never misses.
Yes, added damage calculations on Protean Orber Greninja. Thanks a lot Shroomisaur
Protean Greninja imo is one of the strongest starter after Blaziken. This 'mon has a lot of potential, and will be imo OU, has a good choice for the moves, it is fast and doesn't have a single set. We will see.
Protean Greninja imo is one of the strongest starter after Blaziken. This 'mon has a lot of potential, and will be imo OU, has a good choice for the moves, it is fast and doesn't have a single set. We will see.
That's a good point, I didn't do any Grass Knot calcs in my post. My only problem with Grass Knot is it would leave you walled by Heatran (assuming U-turn, HP Fire, Ice Beam, Grass Knot). Hydro Pump will still 2HKO TTar even if it does have shaky accuracy, and will KO Heatran too, so I guess it will really depend on how common Suicune, Vaporeon and such will be. It's certainly a great option though!
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The funniest thing to me about all this Shadow Sneak spinblocking stuff is that Greninja can just flat-out destroy most spinners on sight. Tentacruel is the only one that would be effective.
I've been thinking a bit more on Grass Knot. It's a very solid choice and is Greninja's only way past bulky Water-types... here's what Grass Knot will let you do:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 346-408 (85.85 - 101.24%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 229-273 (49.46 - 58.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.31%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 390-458 (91.54 - 107.51%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
These are the most notable targets that will fall to Grass Knot Greninja. It also deals heavy damage to a few others: 57% min to 252/4 Politoed, 61% min to 88/0 Gyarados and 73-87% to Keldeo, although it fails to OHKO.
The most painful decision would be what to drop for Grass Knot. Talk about 4MSS... if you drop Hydro Pump, Grass Knot will still 2HKO TTar (more reliably than Hydro Pump), but you'll now be walled by Heatran and other Fire-types. How ironic that would be, a Water-type Pokemon walled by Fire-types!
My idea would be to run Grass Knot over U-Turn, and thus be able to KO them all on one set. You'd lose U-Turn's KO on Celebi...
0 Atk Life Orb Starmie U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 380-452 (94.05 - 111.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70.04%)
...and obviously you'd lose the scouting and momentum potential too. However, that seems like more than a fair trade to me. Grass Knot easily OHKO's Starmie anyway.
I say these calcs show that Grass Knot deserves a place over U-Turn as the slash in the set. Thoughts?
I've been thinking a bit more on Grass Knot. It's a very solid choice and is Greninja's only way past bulky Water-types... here's what Grass Knot will let you do:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 346-408 (85.85 - 101.24%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 229-273 (49.46 - 58.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.31%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 390-458 (91.54 - 107.51%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
These are the most notable targets that will fall to Grass Knot Greninja. It also deals heavy damage to a few others: 57% min to 252/4 Politoed, 61% min to 88/0 Gyarados and 73-87% to Keldeo, although it fails to OHKO.
The most painful decision would be what to drop for Grass Knot. Talk about 4MSS... if you drop Hydro Pump, Grass Knot will still 2HKO TTar (more reliably than Hydro Pump), but you'll now be walled by Heatran and other Fire-types. How ironic that would be, a Water-type Pokemon walled by Fire-types!
My idea would be to run Grass Knot over U-Turn, and thus be able to KO them all on one set. You'd lose U-Turn's KO on Celebi...
0 Atk Life Orb Starmie U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 380-452 (94.05 - 111.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70.04%)
...and obviously you'd lose the scouting and momentum potential too. However, that seems like more than a fair trade to me. Grass Knot easily OHKO's Starmie anyway.
I say these calcs show that Grass Knot deserves a place over U-Turn as the slash in the set. Thoughts?
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Hmm..
Painful choice, I prefer U-turn, because I can scout opponent's team, but it's also true that Greninja's only way to pass Water-type 'mon is Grass Knot.
Imo depends on the needs of the team, if you need to pass Water, you put Grass Knot, but if you have other ways to do (Thundurus and other Electric-type 'mon, status + attacks and so on), you can leave Hydro Pump / U-turn. U-turn imo is fundamental for a good Protean set. Without it, you have to switch for example on Celebi, as you rightly said above.
Painful choice, I prefer U-turn, because I can scout opponent's team, but it's also true that Greninja's only way to pass Water-type 'mon is Grass Knot.
Imo depends on the needs of the team, if you need to pass Water, you put Grass Knot, but if you have other ways to do (Thundurus and other Electric-type 'mon, status + attacks and so on), you can leave Hydro Pump / U-turn. U-turn imo is fundamental for a good Protean set. Without it, you have to switch for example on Celebi, as you rightly said above.
I agree, it really comes down to what your team needs, but we're talking about Greninja being able to OHKO or 2HKO nearly the entire tier if it runs Grass Knot over U-Turn. Yes, it will leave you unable to KO Celebi and a few others, but really... why scout when you can kill?
Greninja's biggest downside is that it's frail and LO will wear it down quickly, so Jolteon, scarfers, or priority are the only things you need to fear. U-Turn won't be helpful against them, because they outspeed and KO. If they try to switch in, rather than U-Turn you should just smash them immediately with the attack of your choice. Because of this, I feel Greninja is actually too powerful for U-Turn.
Sounds crazy, but it's true.
So I was chatting with Shroom about what to drop for Grass Knot and I agree with U-turn. Here's what I WANTED to say but apparently I had a 420 character limit.
Most people won't know Greninja's set off the bat. They know he'll be carrying an attack or two that's very powerful or with excellent coverage (HPump, Ice Beam), but would you risk switching in PDef Cresselia knowing she's 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse but walls the rest of Greninja's moves? I wouldn't. I would be switching in Scarf Thundurus-T strictly on the revenge (because pfft Ice Beam). So because Greninja has so few safe switch-ins I think he's better off abusing Protean to its fullest, at least on the Life Orb set. If you want to get kooky and run a Choice Band or Choice Scarf set, fuck yeah rock U-turn, but when you're free to switch your moves show those assholes just how scary it is to have STAB on everything.
EDIT: Can't believe I didn't see this earlier; Shroom, you DO know that Ice Beam is a very clean 2HKO on SpDef Celebi, right?
Most people won't know Greninja's set off the bat. They know he'll be carrying an attack or two that's very powerful or with excellent coverage (HPump, Ice Beam), but would you risk switching in PDef Cresselia knowing she's 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse but walls the rest of Greninja's moves? I wouldn't. I would be switching in Scarf Thundurus-T strictly on the revenge (because pfft Ice Beam). So because Greninja has so few safe switch-ins I think he's better off abusing Protean to its fullest, at least on the Life Orb set. If you want to get kooky and run a Choice Band or Choice Scarf set, fuck yeah rock U-turn, but when you're free to switch your moves show those assholes just how scary it is to have STAB on everything.
EDIT: Can't believe I didn't see this earlier; Shroom, you DO know that Ice Beam is a very clean 2HKO on SpDef Celebi, right?
Whoops, C&P'd the wrong calc. Fixing. lol
Agree with that.
Maybe I can put U-Turn / Grass Knot, in order to let the user to choose what to use.
Lord of Bays Greninja's Orb set is so crazy lol. I don't really like Scarf set just because he lose some damage output.
I know, and he absolutely doesn't need the speed (what's Dugtrio gonna do, bleed on it as it's pierced by a few Water Shuriken?), but I'd slash Grass Knot first and consider moving U-turn to AC (thought I don't think we're at that point of the metagame yet). Also if you don't mind I'd like to sort of revamp your OP. Later today, I need to get to bed (class in the morning, er, a few hours from now), but I just looked at it and we can do better.
EDIT: I'm stupid, I thought Dugtrio was faster. Hm. The point remains, of course.
EDIT: I'm stupid, I thought Dugtrio was faster. Hm. The point remains, of course.
I certainly agree with that, although the more I look at these calcs and chat about it, the more I favor Grass Knot / U-Turn. It's up for debate though, so before I head off for the night, I'll leave everyone with this for discussion fuel:
1. Greninja can OHKO or 2HKO every Pokemon in the tier.
2. Greninja only fears faster mons, scarfers, and priority.
3. If these Pokemon switch into him, Greninja can KO each of them with the correct move.
4. If they get in for free, Greninja has no business using U-Turn because he will be KO'd before he moves.
So with that in mind, is U-Turn really beneficial over Grass Knot? Is easing prediction by scouting switch-ins worth losing the coverage? I'll be interested to hear more opinions tomorrow.
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It got a bit of attention earlier for your best option at KOing Tentacruel before he could spin since he was the only spinner that could come close to not being OHKO'd, but now Defog is a thing. And most of the users of that are hit super effectively by another move in Greninja's arsenal. It also hits the Fighting-types in the tier, but it's really only useful against Keldeo and Conkeldurr as the rest of them are, again, hit SE by another move in Greninja's pool. We need to wait for the meta game to settle before we can piece together Greninja's optimum set, though.
Since the OP was updated would there need to be a slash on the natures as well to add Timid, or are his defenses so frail that the -def from Hasty wouldn't matter?
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Timid/Hasty Nature
- Grass Knot / U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
Timid if you run grass knot, Hasty if you run U-turn. Toss the 4atk EVs into either defense or Sp.def if running Timid, keep them in attack for Hasty.
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Timid/Hasty Nature
- Grass Knot / U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
Timid if you run grass knot, Hasty if you run U-turn. Toss the 4atk EVs into either defense or Sp.def if running Timid, keep them in attack for Hasty.
Why is hasty recommended instead of naive? Wouldn't going naive give him more defense against priority moves like bullet punch, ice shard, aqua jet etc?
What does Grass Knot do to Mega Blastoise now that he is a great RSer and will probably see tons of play in OU? I assume it's a OHKO but you never know.
Should also test the damage of Grass Knot/Hydro Pump against targets such as TTar and Heatran who are likely to be using Assault Vest this gen.
Should also test the damage of Grass Knot/Hydro Pump against targets such as TTar and Heatran who are likely to be using Assault Vest this gen.
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I've only used Naive Greninja when I run U-Turn for the reasons you mentioned. Though you aren't living most of those barring Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Aqua Jet from CB Azumarill which 3HKOs. So it doesn't really change much but it does have a small impact.
252 SpA Life Orb Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 257-304 (70.99 - 83.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Mega Blastoise BTW)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 133-156 (32.92 - 38.61%) -- 2.39% chance to 3HKO (its +1 for Assault Vest)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 140-166 (34.65 - 41.08%) -- 66.46% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 198-237 (51.42 - 61.55%) -- 95.31% chance to 2HKO (its +1 for Assault Vest)
So from that its basically walled by Assault Vest Tyranitar from those calcs.
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Hey guys, my friend and I are working on optimizing a greninja set for the 3v3 wifi (ranked and random). We'll probably use the below set, with U-Turn instead of HP Fire because breeding that will be tedious, and I'll also be running mega blaziken on my team:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk (Question posted below)
Naive Nature
- Grass Knot
- U-Turn
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
I can't help but feeling that there is a more efficient EV spread to be used here considering Greninja's unique base 122 speed. Does anyone want to work with me to find the optimal EV spread (particularily speed)? Also showdown has greninja's speed at 129, I can adjust the IV's to give the correct speed stat but when I give a +speed nature it bases it off of the incorrect base speed and messes my calculations up. Any advice on this? Thanks :)
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk (Question posted below)
Naive Nature
- Grass Knot
- U-Turn
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
I can't help but feeling that there is a more efficient EV spread to be used here considering Greninja's unique base 122 speed. Does anyone want to work with me to find the optimal EV spread (particularily speed)? Also showdown has greninja's speed at 129, I can adjust the IV's to give the correct speed stat but when I give a +speed nature it bases it off of the incorrect base speed and messes my calculations up. Any advice on this? Thanks :)
You can EV it to outspeed base 120s (Alakazam) and dumping the remaining EVs into HP for a LO number or Atk for a stronger U-Turn. So your spread would look like: 16 HP or 16 Atk / 252 SAtk / 240 Spd with a Naive Nature.
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