Pokémon Greninja

[TooMuchSugar]

U-turn's main purpose is not to switch and do damage. 90% of the time, it is used just to gain momentum (the only pokemon who really care about doing damage with U-turn are Scizor and Genesect). If you want to use it just for the momentum, then no attack EV's are necessary.

On the other hand, I can see U-turn being a good coverage move when you invest in attack. The trade off would be between being able to hit Aegislash and Jellicent with Dark Pulse as well as full special attack, or having an extra coverage move (probably HP fire or electric) at the cost of a little power and ghost coverage.

Also,
168 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 148-174 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
HP Electric doesn't let you beat specially defensive Jellicent (you've got a decent chance at beating the utility counter set, though).

 

[VCrowe]

Taunt is actually a decent move on Greninja, because his high speed means he can Taunt common hazard and set up leads and force your opponent to switch.

TooMuchSugar, things like Aegislash, Ferrothorn, and Scizor are the reason why my set uses HP Fire, but it is true it doesn't have a way to deal with Jellicent. However, since perma-wheather is no longer a thing, I expect Jelicent to drop a tier. I certainly haven't run into him on PS.

 

[UR2L8]

If I may ask, why Taunt? Greninja isn't the bulkiest Pokémon. He can't take hits, and you'd be better off with more coverage than baiting walls, wouldn't you?

I'm not exactly Taunting Mega Kangaskhan here. I taunt stuff like Skarmory and Magic Coatless Smeargle. Also goes through sub so Gliscor can't have his way with you. It has many uses, and being fast encourages using taunt.
After the Taunt goes off I can opt to scald if I think the opponent will switch, otherwise I'll switch accordingly. It takes prediction.

 

[Skyblade12]

Taunt is actually a decent move on Greninja, because his high speed means he can Taunt common hazard and set up leads and force your opponent to switch.

Ah, I didn't think of that. Taunting Hazard leads means that you can stop them before they even set up, keeping hazards off the field and forcing a switch.

Thanks for that thought.

How does it handle Klefki? Priority hazards and paralysis don't seem to be nice to Greninja. Would you go for a damage move against him (Scald, in the above case), or would you taunt and hope to force him to switch out after only one of the hazards/status setups?

I'm not exactly Taunting Mega Kangaskhan here. I taunt stuff like Skarmory and Magic Coatless Smeargle. Also goes through sub so Gliscor can't have his way with you. It has many uses, and being fast encourages using taunt.
After the Taunt goes off I can opt to scald if I think the opponent will switch, otherwise I'll switch accordingly. It takes prediction.

I was more wondering about its viability compared to extra coverage, like Dark Pulse.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Taunt is also great for Scolipede and Galvantula. Besides, it's a lead, so it's not meant to live all that long. You should consider adding spikes and U-turn to be a more effective lead at the loss of offensive coverage.

 

[Tesung]

How do you know how much power it's going to need late game? Pokemon can be at many different amounts of hp, so whatever 2hkoes it nets on full health mons is pointless, and having as much power as possible is what's important. Also, don't tell me dark pulse is useless, as it is by far the hardest it hits rotom and aegislash, who are currently everywhere. Hp fire is of course very nice as well, but it's not necessary.

 

[UR2L8]

Taunt is also great for Scolipede and Galvantula. Besides, it's a lead, so it's not meant to live all that long. You should consider adding spikes and U-turn to be a more effective lead at the loss of offensive coverage.

Spikes is out of the question, defog is going to be very common in the near future, it isn't like we can switch in a ghost to stop it.
U-Turn I've considered, but decided against it.

 

[Tressed]

Taunt is actually a decent move on Greninja, because his high speed means he can Taunt common hazard and set up leads and force your opponent to switch.

TooMuchSugar, things like Aegislash, Ferrothorn, and Scizor are the reason why my set uses HP Fire, but it is true it doesn't have a way to deal with Jellicent. However, since perma-wheather is no longer a thing, I expect Jelicent to drop a tier. I certainly haven't run into him on PS.

Jellicent isn't going anywhere, it checks too many things and is just too good for it to drop. Water types are still really good this gen, as shown by our froggy friend here, plus Jellicent still gives the likes of Lucrario, Hawlucha, and co. trouble. You'll see Jellicent back once the "new car smell" fades from all these new Pokemon.

How does it handle Klefki? Priority hazards and paralysis don't seem to be nice to Greninja. Would you go for a damage move against him (Scald, in the above case), or would you taunt and hope to force him to switch out after only one of the hazards/status setups?

I wouldn't be Taunting Klefki with Greninja. Taking a Thunder Wave from Klefki makes Greninja nearly useless, I'd rather switch out to something that could handle it than risk paralysis. Greninja really wants its Speed, if you take that away its kinda useless (unless the other team is REALLY slow).

 

[ender21]

Does protean Greninja retain its type (of the last move it used) if it's switched out then back in? Or does it always come in as water/dark?

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Water + Dark is great neutral coverage this gen, what with Dark being buffed, but U-Turn hits most of those targets anyways. The only thing I'd really consider running Dark Pulse for is Jellicent, but I'd rather run HP Electric for better neutral coverage.

If you're using Hydro Pump, I'd stick with that, but Scald seems like a better option than Surf because that sexy burn chance outweighs the benefits of 10 extra BP, unless there's something specific I'm forgetting.

Yeah, scald > surf unless you're running toxic spikes or trying to run a parashuffle team or something.

 

[VCrowe]

Does protean Greninja retain its type (of the last move it used) if it's switched out then back in? Or does it always come in as water/dark?

It changes back to Water/Dark when switching out.

 

[Magicfire]

Yeah, scald > surf unless you're running toxic spikes or trying to run a parashuffle team or something.

No, Hydro Pump>Surf>Scald. Scald is mainly used on defensive Pokemon, and isn't what Greninja is meant for. Greninja's Special Attack still isn't that great, even with Protean STAB and Life Orb, so I think Greninja needs stronger moves to dish off as much damage as possible; this especially matters if you aren't running 252 EVs in Special Attack.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

No, Hydro Pump>Surf>Scald. Scald is mainly used on defensive Pokemon, and isn't what Greninja is meant for. Greninja's Special Attack still isn't that great, even with Protean STAB and Life Orb, so I think Greninja needs stronger moves to dish off as much damage as possible; this especially matters if you aren't running 252 EVs in Special Attack.

Well, frankly, no. There's a 30% burn chance on scald, enabling Greninja to cripple physical attackers, such as assault vest Tyranitar, who could switch in to take a surf easily. Additionally, some walls, like Chansey, Blissey, and Goodra, actually take more damage from scald if you get the burn chance, thanks to the 12.5% of the wall's HP that gets taken as well.

Additionally, since this was a discussion about whether surf or scald was a better option, your comment about Hydro Pump is kind of useless. Of course it's the better option, unless you're looking for the greater reliability of 100% accuracy. However, *Surf* is still outclassed by Scald for that move 90% of the time.

 

[Shroomisaur]

No, Hydro Pump>Surf>Scald. Scald is mainly used on defensive Pokemon, and isn't what Greninja is meant for. Greninja's Special Attack still isn't that great, even with Protean STAB and Life Orb, so I think Greninja needs stronger moves to dish off as much damage as possible; this especially matters if you aren't running 252 EVs in Special Attack.

This is especially true when you consider that despite Protean, Greninja's attacks are generally low BP - Hidden Power, U-Turn, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam are all common coverage moves, yet have 60-90 BP. Greninja's Special Attack is good, but not great, so it will really appreciate having the high base power of Hydro Pump for the strongest neutral hits possible.

Well, frankly, no. There's a 30% burn chance on scald, enabling Greninja to cripple physical attackers, such as assault vest Tyranitar, who could switch in to take a surf easily. Additionally, some walls, like Chansey, Blissey, and Goodra, actually take more damage from scald if you get the burn chance, thanks to the 12.5% of the wall's HP that gets taken as well.

Additionally, since this was a discussion about whether surf or scald was a better option, your comment about Hydro Pump is kind of useless. Of course it's the better option, unless you're looking for the greater reliability of 100% accuracy. However, *Surf* is still outclassed by Scald 90% of the time.

Greninja shouldn't be attacking Chansey & co with ANY special move - it should be U-Turning out to a strong physical attacker. Arguing that there's a 30% chance to burn a wall with Natural Cure isn't very convincing.

Scald, Surf... generally I'd just stick with Hydro Pump. If you really dislike that accuracy, I guess Scald is a decent option... but Greninja doesn't have the bulk to spend multiple turns fishing for Burn hax.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

This is especially true when you consider that despite Protean, Greninja's attacks are generally low BP - Hidden Power, U-Turn, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam are all common coverage moves, yet have 60-90 BP. Greninja's Special Attack is good, but not great, so it will really appreciate having the high base power of Hydro Pump for the strongest neutral hits possible.


Greninja shouldn't be attacking Chansey & co with ANY special move - it should be U-Turning out to a strong physical attacker. Arguing that there's a 30% chance to burn a wall with Natural Cure isn't very convincing.

Scald, Surf... generally I'd just stick with Hydro Pump. If you really dislike that accuracy, I guess Scald is a decent option... but Greninja doesn't have the bulk to spend multiple turns fishing for Burn hax.

Then again, that wasn't the argument at all; the argument was that, in lieu of Hydro Pump, it makes a *better* secondary option than surf. Additionally, if Greninja gets the burn on a switch into Chansey, I was just mentioning that it would do more damage *that turn,* while still enabling you to U-Turn out the next turn. Additionally, burning a pokemon with natural cure is by no means a bad thing; it puts pressure on that pokemon to switch out, forcing it to accumulate hazard damage, if any, and forcing it to use more pp of it's respective recovery, or else waste a turn heal belling/aromatherapying for itself.

 

[ClockworkLad]

Then again, that wasn't the argument at all; the argument was that, in lieu of Hydro Pump, it makes a *better* secondary option than surf. Additionally, if Greninja gets the burn on a switch into Chansey, I was just mentioning that it would do more damage *that turn,* while still enabling you to U-Turn out the next turn. Additionally, burning a pokemon with natural cure is by no means a bad thing; it puts pressure on that pokemon to switch out, forcing it to accumulate hazard damage, if any, and forcing it to use more pp of it's respective recovery, or else waste a turn heal belling/aromatherapying for itself.

Then again, I see Blissey and Chansey not running Aroma anymore, but Natural Cure... They seem to go for Flamethrower and SR. Pressure is bouncing off Chansey if you burn it though. Chansey's Soft-boiled is gonna recover instantly if the blobs fall below half. Then, Chansey can continue its Toxic-Stall/Seismic Tosses. Hydro Pump and Scald are inferior options. Surf is the best of the 3 IMO

 

[Skyblade12]

I still remain unconvinced of Hydro-Pump over Surf, mostly because I run Greninja with 252 Special Attack, and have no intention of changing that to the split spread anytime soon, and I do not want to suffer the low accuracy. But that is a personal preference, and I can understand people who would rather run the higher damage move.

I would, however, appreciate some calculations for KOs of 252 Scald vs 252 Surf, as well as 252 Scald vs 168 Hydro Pump. Just to see what KO losses we suffer. If Scald and Surf are essentially identical for usage at 252, there is no reason not to run Scald.

 

[VCrowe]

I still remain unconvinced of Hydro-Pump over Surf, mostly because I run Greninja with 252 Special Attack, and have no intention of changing that to the split spread anytime soon, and I do not want to suffer the low accuracy. But that is a personal preference, and I can understand people who would rather run the higher damage move.

I would, however, appreciate some calculations for KOs of 252 Scald vs 252 Surf, as well as 252 Scald vs 168 Hydro Pump. Just to see what KO losses we suffer. If Scald and Surf are essentially identical for usage at 252, there is no reason not to run Scald.

Skyblade12, here are those calcs;

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Scald vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Heatran: 218-260 (56.6 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Heatran: 250-296 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

168 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Heatran: 283-335 (73.5 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Heatran: 304-359 (78.9 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I used Heatran, because he seemed like the best choice. I'll post some more calcs later. In this case, it doesn't matter what you're running, they're all Guaranteed 2HKO's.

 

[wyndamn]

I had an idea that might possibly exploit the ability protean to its fullest on this pokémon;

Jolly/Adamant
Protean
252 atk /252 spe
Liechi Berry/Salac Berry
Waterfall
Acrobatics/Shadow Sneak
Substitute
Spikes


Initially due to being a dark type you can switch it into a choiced or non- choiced psychic attack, then whenever you have the upper hand or momentum you can substitute first turning him into a normal type, if for some reason any fighting type switches in you can counter them with acrobatics after activating liechi berry with some more substitutes (as it will be weak to fighting moves during the use of substitute) after switching it to a flying type, in case any ice type tries attacking you. You can attack with waterfall to resist those type of moves and finally when they try rock or electric attacks while he is a wáter or flying type you can use spikes and again take advantage of the momentum to set up the last substitute or some spikes layers.

You can run adamant nature in case you want more damage output and switch into salac berry to patch up speed . Shadow Sneak provides stab priority move and also sports the inmmunity to fighting types in case the opponent is leading off with any.

 

[VCrowe]

Oh God, the physical sets... No, just please no.... It's completely ourclassed by mixed and special Greninja, and it seems like you're just trying to use him defensively, which should never ever be done.

 

[Schpoonman]

I had an idea that might possibly exploit the ability protean to its fullest on this pokémon;

Jolly/Adamant
Protean
252 atk /252 spe
Liechi Berry/Salac Berry
Waterfall
Acrobatics/Shadow Sneak
Substitute
Spikes


Initially due to being a dark type you can switch it into a choiced or non- choiced psychic attack, then whenever you have the upper hand or momentum you can substitute first turning him into a normal type, if for some reason any fighting type switches in you can counter them with acrobatics after activating liechi berry with some more substitutes (as it will be weak to fighting moves during the use of substitute) after switching it to a flying type, in case any ice type tries attacking you. You can attack with waterfall to resist those type of moves and finally when they try rock or electric attacks while he is a wáter or flying type you can use spikes and again take advantage of the momentum to set up the last substitute or some spikes layers.

You can run adamant nature in case you want more damage output and switch into salac berry to patch up speed . Shadow Sneak provides stab priority move and also sports the inmmunity to fighting types in case the opponent is leading off with any.

Abusing Protean to its fullest means running a fully special set, sometimes 3 special attacks and U-turn, to abuse STAB for all your attacks and Greninja's ridiculously good coverage. This set has astrociously poor coverage. If you get threatened by something that switches in based on your Protean-changed typing, you fuck them to high hell with an attack or you run, because sponging weak attacks STILL can take upward of a third of your HP off.

Physical sets are. Not. Viable. He has terrible coverage and all his moves have low BP, not letting you compensate his low Attack.

 

[Helix]

I have been running a physical set and have been really underwhelmed by it. Water shuriken was pretty sweet but thats about it, i will be switching into the mixed build something like this:
+speed nature
hydro pump
ice beam
u turn
shadow sneak/priority attack

 

[Schpoonman]

Drop Shadow Sneak. Piss weak priority that nets you less KOs than Sandstorm or Stealth Rocks do is not worth losing the move slot.

 

[Helix]

Drop Shadow Sneak. Piss weak priority that nets you less KOs than Sandstorm or Stealth Rocks do is not worth losing the move slot.

What would you recommend in that slot instead of shadow sneak?

 

[VCrowe]

What would you recommend in that slot instead of shadow sneak?

If you want coverage go for HP Fire or Grass Knot, if you want support go for Taunt or Spikes.