Pokémon Greninja

[Jaguar360]

And KyuB.

Anyways, I have been watching a buddy of mine use the Ninja Set posted by Jaguar360 a couple pages back (I refuse to use this tumor) and I've gotta say, that thing is ridiculous. By far the best set I have seen this thing run. It 2HKOs the entire metagame outside of P2, while being nearly impossible to freely switch into.
In short, it's absolutely ridiculous and just goes against Ninja's case of not being borderline borked.

Yeah, though don't forget that Tentacruel and defensive Mega Venusaur also beat the set as well (which are both handled by Extrasensory as The Big Aristotle just slashed with Dark Pulse on the set above). Greninja is pretty crazy though and is extremely difficult to switch into. Strong priority (Talonflame, Mach Punch users, CB Dragonite) and the fast Megas like Sceptile, Manectric and Beedrill keep it in check offensively but it's hard to keep Pokemon from taking severe damage or dying when Greninja is on a slower Pokemon. Plus, switching out doesn't have much of a cost for it since it has no need to set up at all.

I'm very anti-Hydro Pump at this point, and I see very little reason to run it. Ice Beam and Low Kick cover pretty much everything it used to hit, and you don't have to deal with HP's shaky accuracy either. I think the standard Ninja set should be (and probably is, by now):

Gunk Shot
Ice Beam
Dark Pulse/Extrasensory
Low Kick

...So basically the set Jaguar posted, but with Extrasensory slashed for stuff like Tentacruel and Conk. I'm really starting to wonder whether or not this thing is getting too powerful for OU -- at this point, I run T-Flame on basically all my teams as it's the only surefire way to check it in this meta.

Hydro Pump is still useful, as it is pretty handy to have on Spikes sets and is Greninja's strongest move aside from Gunk Shot, which is a bit stronger with full investment. However, I do agree that it is not as necessary as it was in the past, as Gunk Shot + Ice Beam + coverage reduces the need for it by a lot.

 

[Tareowulfe]

so from reading some of the more recent posts here, i take it timid Greninja is no longer viable? i ask mainly because i managed to bust out a 6IV shiny timid protean Greninja(only took 2700 eggs) in X and Y when Timid was the To-Go-Nature.

now i feel like it was a huge slap in the face to find out after all that work they decided to give him viable physical attacks >.>

 

[Norne]

so from reading some of the more recent posts here, i take it timid Greninja is no longer viable? i ask mainly because i managed to bust out a 6IV shiny timid protean Greninja(only took 2700 eggs) in X and Y when Timid was the To-Go-Nature.

now i feel like it was a huge slap in the face to find out after all that work they decided to give him viable physical attacks >.>

Shinning mean nothing to simulators but yep. Timid 5iv (Speed ties, non HP grass) or HP fire were the staple, and despite the fact that those are still viable given the pressure of Greninja carrying gunk shoot as a possibility, they are indeed a outclassed by the naive HP fire or 6iv variants these days.

TLDR that shinny timid Greninja weaker to foulplay and confusion damage due to 31 IVs on attack could still work as a spider with hydropump ice beam and GK/DP/ES or even SS depending on your team... if you really want to bother using a shinny in non simulator battles due to some emotional attachment to a model repaint.

Lol at the fact my TLDR is longer than the paragraph before it.

 

[Aragorn the King]

so from reading some of the more recent posts here, i take it timid Greninja is no longer viable? i ask mainly because i managed to bust out a 6IV shiny timid protean Greninja(only took 2700 eggs) in X and Y when Timid was the To-Go-Nature.

now i feel like it was a huge slap in the face to find out after all that work they decided to give him viable physical attacks >.>

A Naive nature is absolutely ideal for Greninja, as it lets it OHKO Azumarill using the smallest amount of EVs (40). However, the same physical feats can be done using a Timid Nature but with 148 EVs. This only leaves you with 108 EVs for Special Attack, so it's going to hit a lot weaker on that side. I'm not sure if it'll miss any crucial OHKOs/2HKOs.

The alternative would be using a 100% special greninja, which is somewhat viable, but nowhere near as viable as Mixed.

 

[Tareowulfe]

Shinning mean nothing to simulators but yep. Timid 5iv (Speed ties, non HP grass) or HP fire were the staple, and despite the fact that those are still viable given the pressure of Greninja carrying gunk shoot as a possibility, they are indeed a outclassed by the naive HP fire or 6iv variants these days.

TLDR that shinny timid Greninja weaker to foulplay and confusion damage due to 31 IVs on attack could still work as a spider with hydropump ice beam and GK/DP/ES or even SS depending on your team... if you really want to bother using a shinny in non simulator battles due to some emotional attachment to a model repaint.

Lol at the fact my TLDR is longer than the paragraph before it.

well im talking about on cart not simulator where its a tad bit harder to get a shiny, let alone a 6IV shiny. for my next question is timid still viable if i have other team member to take care of azumarill and the other fairies?

A Naive nature is absolutely ideal for Greninja, as it lets it OHKO Azumarill using the smallest amount of EVs (40). However, the same physical feats can be done using a Timid Nature but with 148 EVs. This only leaves you with 108 EVs for Special Attack, so it's going to hit a lot weaker on that side. I'm not sure if it'll miss any crucial OHKOs/2HKOs.

The alternative would be using a 100% special greninja, which is somewhat viable, but nowhere near as viable as Mixed.

84- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 382-452 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

i don't think many people if any will be running a more defensive Azu than that unless this a some godly defensive set im not seeing. also what particualr mons should i be shooting for to KO on the special attack side?

thanks for the replies

 

[Norne]

well im talking about on cart not simulator where its a tad bit harder to get a shiny, let alone a 6IV shiny. for my next question is timid still viable if i have other team member to take care of azumarill and the other fairies?



84- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 382-452 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

i don't think many people if any will be running a more defensive Azu than that unless this a some godly defensive set im not seeing. also what particualr mons should i be shooting for to KO on the special attack side?

thanks for the replies

I play on both, the best advice I can give you it's to breed a non shinny 6iv naive if you don't have the patience for HP fire, 6iv timid Is way too suboptimal for my tastes as foulplay us still a thing, to be honest I wouldn't use a pure special attacker with more than 5 IVs on at unless an optimal HP requires it to be higher to not sacrifice defences.

Like I said you could try to use that slightly less viable set if you are too emotional attached to a shinny.

 

[Tareowulfe]

I play on both, the best advice I can give you it's to breed a non shinny 6iv naive if you don't have the patience for HP fire, 6iv timid Is way too suboptimal for my tastes as foulplay us still a thing, to be honest I wouldn't use a pure special attacker with more than 5 IVs on at unless an optimal HP requires it to be higher to not sacrifice defences.

Like I said you could try to use that slightly less viable set if you are too emotional attached to a shinny.

4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 58-70 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 31IV Attack
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 51-61 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 0IV Attack

^
thats the strongest user of foul play afaik, i don't feel too discouraged about a 5% difference in damage so if we could move past that little detail please.

i'm thinking about running

Mr. Miyagi (Greninja) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Extrasensory
- Surf
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam

60- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-234 (101 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think this is still a very viable greninja set, even with the sub-optimal nature and IV spread

EDIT: i chose surf over hydro pump for accuracy, but if you guys feel hydro pump hits more important KOs to be worth the accuracy drop please by all means lemme know

what do you guys think?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 58-70 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 31IV Attack
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 51-61 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 0IV Attack

^
thats the strongest user of foul play afaik, i don't feel too discouraged about a 5% difference in damage so if we could move past that little detail please.

i'm thinking about running

Mr. Miyagi (Greninja) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 60 Atk / 196 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Extrasensory
- Surf
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam

60- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 198-234 (101 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think this is still a very viable greninja set, even with the sub-optimal nature and IV spread

EDIT: i chose surf over hydro pump for accuracy, but if you guys feel hydro pump hits more important KOs to be worth the accuracy drop please by all means lemme know

what do you guys think?

Why would you run timid and more Atk investment when you can just run Naive and not have to compensate?
You're losing your power for 3/4 of your attacks, that is just counter productive.

 

[Norne]

Why would you run timid and more Atk investment when you can just run Naive and not have to compensate?
You're losing your power for 3/4 of your attacks, that is just counter productive.

Because it's shinny... That's history argument... I would honestly avoid touching a timid pgunk ninja even if I had a rag on a 3 meters long stick. If he is dead set on keeping that foulplay bait 6iv timid he should honestly try the spike set instead of running a suboptimal spread that misses important 2hkos even with Sr factored in.

 

[The Big Aristotle]

4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 58-70 (39.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 31IV Attack
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 51-61 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 0IV Attack

^
thats the strongest user of foul play afaik, i don't feel too discouraged about a 5% difference in damage so if we could move past that little detail please.

Foul Play is based off the opponent's attack stat, so it'll do the same amount of damage rather it's Yveltal or Vullaby.

 

[Norne]

Foul Play is based off the opponent's attack stat, so it'll do the same amount of damage rather it's Yveltal or Vullaby.

Yvtal dark Aura boost it further, pure power does it too.

 

[silver97]

Can someone explain me how the fuck i counter this thing on offense? Ok maybe not fully countering because that's impossible for a lot of mons, but damn are there reliable answers? Because i'm having issues finding them and building offensive teams while caring about not being ninja weak is a pain in the ass

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Can someone explain me how the fuck i counter this thing on offense? Ok maybe not fully countering because that's impossible for a lot of mons, but damn are there reliable answers? Because i'm having issues finding them and building offensive teams while caring about not being ninja weak is a pain in the ass

Lol, the best counter on offense is clicking the X in the top right.
Seriously, there are only checks when it comes to offense, and they have to have a free switch in, which only happens after something dies, in which case, ninja just switches out to continue its destruction later.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Can someone explain me how the fuck i counter this thing on offense? Ok maybe not fully countering because that's impossible for a lot of mons, but damn are there reliable answers? Because i'm having issues finding them and building offensive teams while caring about not being ninja weak is a pain in the ass

Hyper Offense or Bulky Offense? On HO you really can only rk it, but on bulky offense, you could try out CM physically defensive Manaphy, which is a pretty great switch in.

 

[silver97]

Lol, the best counter on offense is clicking the X in the top right.
Seriously, there are only checks when it comes to offense, and they have to have a free switch in, which only happens after something dies, in which case, ninja just switches out to continue its destruction later.

Indeed that's what i was pointing out it is fucking ridicolous how it destroys offensive teams, it basically kills or cripples a mon in the opposing team every time it has an opportunity to fire off an attack, the best answer i can think of is scarf keldeo

 

[silver97]

Hyper Offense or Bulky Offense? On HO you really can only rk it, but on bulky offense, you could try out CM physically defensive Manaphy, which is a pretty great switch in.

Manaphy seems like a decent answer, but the problem here is that i don't think it is so easy to fit on a team, it requires support from teammates and you can't just slap it on every team. However good option, i was thinking of conkeldurr, but yeah if it rises again in usage ninja will just start extrasensory once more so fuk it.

Sorry for double posting, didn't see this post when i posted the previous.

 

[Tressed]

Can someone explain me how the fuck i counter this thing on offense? Ok maybe not fully countering because that's impossible for a lot of mons, but damn are there reliable answers? Because i'm having issues finding them and building offensive teams while caring about not being ninja weak is a pain in the ass

SubAgility Empoleon can tank any attack, barring Low Kick or two Dark Pulses, and OHKO with Hydro Pump if Greninja doesn't resist it. Also can set up on it, which is kinda cool.

 

[silver97]

SubAgility Empoleon can tank any attack, barring Low Kick or two Dark Pulses, and OHKO with Hydro Pump if Greninja doesn't resist it. Also can set up on it, which is kinda cool.

Yeah ok but low kick is becoming really popular and subagility empoleon is kinda unreliable as a sweeper. Same problem as manaphy, except it requires a lot more support.

 

[Tressed]

Yeah ok but low kick is becoming really popular and subagility empoleon is kinda unreliable as a sweeper. Same problem as manaphy, except it requires a lot more support.

Eh, I've been using it recently, since CTC was kind enough to build something for me. It's really not that bad assuming you've got stuff to break through checks and other shit.

Also, what are your other options lol

 

[silver97]

Eh, I've been using it recently, since CTC was kind enough to build something for me. It's really not that bad assuming you've got stuff to break through checks and other shit.

Also, what are your other options lol

I wasn't saying it isn't a good answer, but it needs a lot of support, basically your team needs to be builded around empoleon for it to be effective.
Other option we found until now are CM manaphy, scarf keldeo, maybe conk with its AV will see some usage. Maybe some sort of bulky rachi or scizor can deal with it, i don't know, keep posting them if you find some good answers

 

[estralita]

Well, if we're talking scarfers, one surprisingly decent check I've found so far to Greninja is Scarf Heatran. Obviously, Water moves and Low Kick wreck it, so it's not perfect, but it does have some advantages that make it effective. I'll freely admit that one thing that makes this work is the surprise factor; Heatran doesn't scream " Dangerous" to the Greninja, making them less likely to switch out. The other thing is that Heatran has some very good switch-in opportunities. It can come in on a resisted Ice Beam or, preferably an immune Gunk Shot, and then KO next turn with a Super-Effective Flash Cannon or Earth Power, killing it for low cost.

Disclaimer: This poster has not been able to test her claims on the higher level ladders, and has no idea how the best players react to one. She is only throwing out a possibility to stop the monster that is Greninja.

 

[River Martini]

The thing is that people do not normally switch heatran in to greninja. Any good player will highly suspect this is scarf and just switch out.

 

[estralita]

Mostly, the way I've played it is like trying to save a fairy type from Gunk Shot, but yeah, you're right about that.

 

[silver97]

Well, if we're talking scarfers, one surprisingly decent check I've found so far to Greninja is Scarf Heatran. Obviously, Water moves and Low Kick wreck it, so it's not perfect, but it does have some advantages that make it effective. I'll freely admit that one thing that makes this work is the surprise factor; Heatran doesn't scream " Dangerous" to the Greninja, making them less likely to switch out. The other thing is that Heatran has some very good switch-in opportunities. It can come in on a resisted Ice Beam or, preferably an immune Gunk Shot, and then KO next turn with a Super-Effective Flash Cannon or Earth Power, killing it for low cost.

Disclaimer: This poster has not been able to test her claims on the higher level ladders, and has no idea how the best players react to one. She is only throwing out a possibility to stop the monster that is Greninja.

Yeah its kinda suspicious to switch a tran on ninja. Of course this can be a way to deal with greninja but well, probably every scarfer has an opportunity to switch in on at least one of greninja's moves and threaten to KO back, but that's a quite weak way to handle it, i nominated keldeo because extrasensory is almost never seen now and grass knot/hp grass are becoming rarer so it has good switch-in opportunities.

 

[estralita]

Okay, like I said, just a thought. Guess I should Golurk more.