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Groudon

Has anyone here considered a Scarf set for Groudon? It's very unorthodox sure, but base 90 is a key Speed tier in Uber, and lets it keep up with other base 90s that might be Scarfed, like Reshiram or more importantly, Kyogre. It can check sweepers like Darkrai or Mewtwo that think they can get off with a lategame victory, has the offensive presence and movepool to threaten everything in the tier, and I can see no stark disadvantages invoked from a Scarf Groudon that wouldn't apply to any other Scarfer in existence. It actually saves my ass a lot in Ubers matches when players unwittingly leave their weakened Kyogre in on Groudon and take a swift EQ, allowing me weather control for the entire rest of the match.

Also, consider this: it's much easier to control the weather when Groudon has more opportunities to be useful during the match than sit there and wait for something physical to show up or a sweeping opportunity is open. Weather control may not be as vital in Ubers as it is in OU, but it's very useful when you have a Reshiram or Ho-oh on your team who really want that Rain gone.
 
I can see a really disadvantage to using Groudon. First off Scarf Groudon cant really revenge anything tbh. It doesnt even come close to OHKOing Darkrai and Mewtwo even with SR. I'm calcing with Jolly since running Adamant is even worse since you lose a great deal of Speed. Further, a Scarf user should have a powerful STAB move and an unresisted STAB type, which Groudon obviously does not have. Earthquake does not affect leviators like Giratina-O(who really really really common) and Flying-types. Stone Edge is rather poor due to its shaky accuracy. Hence, Scarf Groudon shouldnt get a set, IMO.
 
Agreeing with barry4ever. Yes Scarf Groudon has better Attack and Defenses than Garchomp but Garchomp has that trolly Speed and Dragon STAB, both which are incredibly important. Groudon lacks any powerful moves outside of Earthquake, unlike Kyogre who can just DROWN ALL with Water Spout or Surf.

Stuck on Earthquake also means hi Rayquaza or Ho-Oh, come in for free? Groudon wishes it has a powerful secondary STAB, Fire Punch is disappointingly weak so that doesn't count even with pseudo STAB. Compared to Zekrom, that devilish Dragon has Electric and Dragon STAB, which is almost unresisted. Bolt Strike is a tad more powerful than Earthquake while Outrage has no immunities. If Groudon is your core of the team, using the support set is the way to go in order to survive longer.

So why CB Groudon and not Scarf Groudon? CB Groudon hits like a gigantic dinosaur. It can OHKO Mewtwo and Palkia after Stealth Rock damage, as an example of its power. Garchomp is generally superior to Groudon in Scarf using because Garchomp can spam Outrage which will easily demolish weakened offensive teams. Dragon + Ground is an amazing offensive combination.

Scarf Groudon is OO material at best. Otherwise, you can talk with Fireburn but I believe he has the same opinion as me. Scarf Groudon does check SD Rayquaza and Lucario better than Garchomp can though lol. However, Scarf Dialga does it better most of the time as a check to SD Rayquaza or Lucario.
 
Fireburn is already a Fire-type, so why do you need it?

Groudon is generally paired with Forretress, Palkia or Ho-OH. All of those three can annoy Ferrothorn easily or KO with Sacred Fire / Fire Blast. Groudon likes Stone Edge more to deal with that turkey known as Ho-Oh while Dragon Tail is so important :D

I don't know though, Fire Punch seems awesome to OHKO Ferrothorn, Forretress and 2HKO some Skarmory on the support set. Oh yeah Fire Punch is your strongest attack against Gliscor and Grass Arceus. Still Stone Edge > Fire Punch :D
 
It deserves at least a slash onto Stone Edge in my opinion, seeing as Ferrothorn is extremely common. Also, Forretress isn't that common...
 
I actually agree with firecape. Fire Punch should be slashed on Stone Edge. Any team that doesn't mind Ho-Oh that much ( teams with Giratina to spinblock wants Ferro and Forry gone), should use Fire Punch to take out Ferrothorn and Forretress. Forretress still exists! Also many stall teams still prefer Forretress > Ferrothorn because it can spin and Toxic Spikes is awesome. Ferrothorn needs Tentacruel for those. Its pretty debatable whether Forretress or Ferrothorn is better :P
 
Fine, I'll just keep ScarfDon all to myself. <3

As for the current discussion, why use Fire Punch when you can use Overheat or Fire Blast? Even with Groudon's sky-high Attack stat, its special options have higher base power and do more damage by the shitload to things like Skarmory and Gliscor that have lower Sp. Def. Heck, you don't even have to 2HKO with Fire Punch and give Skarm the chance to switch out; one shot with Overheat and it's done. Related calcs:

Relaxed Groudon's Overheat on Sp. Def Skarm: 80.8% - 95.2%
Impish on Phys. Def: 107.8% - 126.9%

Impish Fire Punch on Phys. Def Skarm: 39.5% - 46.7%
Sp. Def: 50.9% - 60.5%

Relaxed Overheat on Gliscor: 54% - 63.6%
Fire Punch: 20.1% - 23.7% (embarrassing)

Fire Punch is just too weak. You're better off using Special Attacks to get the job done.
 
Fire Punch's better IMO since you can OHKO Ferrothorn. Also, Skarmory has sturdy, so he can just Roost off your damage and laugh at your -2 Overheat (Physical Skarm in Uber isnt played at all, there's only the Special one, same for Gliscor who isnt common at all).
 
Gliscor was just cited as one of the examples for reasons to list Fire Punch in the analysis. And how does Skarmory laugh at Overheat when it has a high chance of being KOed after having accrued only Stealth Rock damage? And come on; Ferrothorn surviving an Overheat in the Sun? Get real.
 
Gliscor can stall out your overheat since he take 48-58 (which is pretty good though), Overheat / Fire Punch does the same to Ferro (rain/sun or not), Skarm take 73-86 which isnt an OHKO with SR so he can roost off the damage.

Saying he can take an overheat under the sun was a mistake, I'm pretty shocked by the fact that Ferrothorn isnt OHKOed by a modest flamethrower Heatran full SpA, so yeah. Anyway, it's worth to be mentionned.
 
The main selling point of Fire Punch (and the whole reason it is popular in the first place), is taking out Ubers Ferrothorn (which commonly runs 252 HP / 252 SpD+). This takes 103.4% - 122.7% from Fire Punch with no investment. Overheat is a clean OHKO, but it can be predicted around easily. Simply switch to Dragon X then safely back to Ferrothorn, who now takes 51.1% - 60.2% from Overheat, which is easily Leech Seeded and healed off of. Fire Punch does not have this problem, and its basically the only reason its used lol.
 
The problem with switching to Dragon-X to take the Overheat is that Groudon is going to switch out of that Dragon for fear of taking a Draco Meteor. The same also applies to Fire Punch; Groudon at -2 against a full-health Ferrothorn is never going to happen. if Ferrothorn is up against Groudon with a Fire move, it's going to die, but if it can scout it, it can avoid it all the same. It's just that Overheat is stronger against not only Ferrothorn, but literally everything else.

The only time this is applicable is when you're using, say, a Rock Polish Groudon. Groudon is very likely to stay in against a Dragon and KO it in that case, whereas Ferro can switch around and try to get you at -2 so it can survive the Overheat and Leech Seed you. In that case, wouldn't Fire Punch be a better option for Rock Polish than Support?
 
In my opinion, both Fire Punch and Overheat have their own usefulness. Fire Punch is a consistent move, has a lot more PP and it never misses usually. Overheat hits harder on most Steel-types but the Special Attack drop can be annoying. I like Fire Blast > Fire Punch or Overheat because Fire Blast hits opposing Groudon harder than Earthquake, assuming the standard Support Groudon which is Impish 252/252+.

On the Rock Polish set, Groudon wants to OHKO any Skarmory variant(provided Sturdy is broken), something Fire Punch fails to do so.

firecape edit: hijacking trickroom's post to say that Fire Punch is useful for reliable power as all Groudon wants to do on some teams is be able to reliablely destroy Ferrothorn.
 
Gonna agree with trickroom over here. I personally like Fire Blast over Overheat and Fir Punch but both have their uses. However, i dont think any of them should be given a slash in the moveset. Rather, a line or two could be added to the AC of the support set about them.
 
I also agree with trickroom and barry4ever here, Fire Blast should KO Ferrothorn anyway if it comes in on an EQ.

Still, I generally dislike using Fire moves on Groudon because Stone Edge is too important to KO Ho-Oh, who is much more of a douchebag to teams with Groudon than Ferrothorn usually is, and it is very easy for Ho-Oh to take advantage of a Stone Edge-less Groudon. :/

Fire Blast has slashed in the support set, while Overheat and Fire Punch will get mentions in the Additional Comments.
 
I doubt Ho-Oh likes taking Stealth Rock damage anyway :P Ho-Oh has to careful when switching into Groudon because Dragon Tail + Stealth Rock damage = a dead Ho-OH.

Stone Edge still works better to me, but Fire Blast kills Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress. Skarmory generally likes to come in on Groudon, and Fire Punch just doesn't kill Skarmory while Stone Edge from Support Groudon tickles Skarmory.

Groudon can use Roar to force out Ho-Oh. Any mentions of Rock Slide, because theoretically a faster Ho-Oh can stall out Stone Edge's 8 PP with Substitute and Pressure. Keep in mind Rock Slide doesn't come close to KOing Ho-Oh after a burn.
 
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