GSC Grand Slam - Tier Discussion

[Siatam]

Friends, GSCers, countrymen, the GSC forum is going to host a Grand Slam style tour starting ~April-May. In order to make this tour a great success, I would like to hear some community feedback about the tier selection.

To establish the goals of this tour: we want a tour that is competitive, gives underserved tiers additional exposure, lets fans of GSC lower tiers showcase their abilities, and serves to develop the metagames of GSC lower tiers. To meet these ends I'd like to propose the following tier possibilities for community feedback. In no particular order:

Option 1: Ubers, UU, NU, PU, ZU

Option 2: Ubers, UU, NU, PU, LC

Option 3: Ubers, UUBL, UU, NU, PU

Option 3.5: A tier combination above, but one/multiple slots are used to suspect potential bans/unbans. (i.e UU + _ UUBL)

Option 4: ??? - Some combination I haven't listed...

Please be respect to your fellow users in this discussion. We're trying to have fun with our hobby, there is no malicious exclusion of your favorite metagame.
Please keep the goals for this tour in mind when voicing your opinion. If you think some of these goals are not relevant or if any goals are missing, please say so.

This will likely been decided solely by discussion, it is unlikely a community survey is held for this topic.

Things not open for discussion:
- What is being suspected in any potential suspect slots. This will be decided after the format is established.
- Having anything other than 5 tiers. (Future editions may expand to 7, but that is too ambitious for now.)
- Cutting Ubers, UU, or NU
- Non "sequential" tiers. (i.e. Can't cut PU for UUBL + ZU)
- Doubling up on standard + suspect tiers. (No UU + UU suspect)

Lets make this tour the best it can be!

 

[Estarossa]

gsc zu is in a really good place in general and honestly is a much more established and competitive tier than PU currently is so would be a shame to cut it out really.

given the open-ness to testing stuff in the tour i think PU can be viable option that lets the fantastic tier that ZU is be included still, previous action on hitmonchan targetted one of the 3 major issues of PU but seadra/furret are still very dumb (and arguably more dumb now). There's arguably other routes that can be discussed too when discussed on the suspected stuff later after the format is established too there.

Presuming that that sorta action is taken then option 1 is the definite winner to me by a mile, ubers + uu + nu + pu (suspect) + zu. heavily against uu suspect slot without uu also getting a slot which isn't on offer.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

My thoughts:

Ubers - Guaranteed include anyways, but I think it's super cool to have in more tours. I've been seeing a bunch of people preaching the tier recently like corvere and richardmilleplain and with ALTPL about to end we can see that interaction is solidly up so I approve of its inclusion.

UU - Personally would really like to see some sort of suspect, specifically Muk. Tier is pretty stagnant and a lot of the most active/best players are losing interest and want to see something happen from the discussion I've seen, and I think muk would be a great addition with explosion and high general offenses but awful speed, basically no useful resistances, spikes hating, and weakness to two of the most common types, ground and psychic, promoting general offensive progress in the tier while still being balanced.

NU - I don't really need to say this but gsc nu might be my absolute favorite tier rn so yeah. (Included regardless woooo)

As for the tiers that aren't guaranteed i.e. opinions actually matter kinda

UUBL - As one of the most active and involved gsc uubl players, yes please thank you very much this tier is super duper fun and awesome and diverse with a large part of even UU being legit usable/viable and a myriad of set diversity across the board, I would love to see this tier included.

PU - This tier like instantly died after hitmonchan ban and furret and seadra are kinda overpowered and there's like nobody that plays this tier anymore, so why not give it a shot in this tour (though again furret and maybe seadra would probably have to go at some point but it's fine if they're included ig)

ZU - This tier seems cool but I'd personally probably rather give PU a second shot in the limelight than include this.

LC - Can't speak on it. I know that exactly corvere plays this and nobody else (maybe beelzemon idr)

TL;DR: Option 3.5 is my preferred format

 

[MrSoup]

Option 3.5 + 1 seems the best IMO. Ubers and NU are stable and generally enjoyed tiers by the community. ZU is a stable, strong tier that is seeing lots of play and development as of recently. In order to include ZU, PU is needed, and this is a solid addition to try the meta out post bans.

As for UU, I'd be disappointed to see this tournament not try a suspect on 1-3 mons from UUBL given the many outcries for change as of recently for this tier. This would be the perfect opportunity to spark discussion about potential suspects given that this is the first GSC Grand Slam and isn't a high-stakes team tour. Going into which mons should be suspected, as outlined, shouldn't be a necessary part of the debate, but its evident from recent community pulse from both established and new players that changes should be tested, even if they don't work out!

 

[pp's splash town]

I want to third bee and soup by saying that on behalf of much of the UU player base, I'd really like to see a UU suspect for this tour. Which BLs are included should be community decided, but I think it would benefit the tier to at least test out some new mons in a tournament setting. A lot of UUers are dissatisfied with the current stagnation of the tier, and new players have not shown much interest outside of theorymonning. I think a suspect would be a good way to address both issues, and would add some much needed spice to the tier.

As for tiers that aren't guaranteed inclusions, I'd really love to see PU get some love. I've only had the chance to play 1 game of the tier, and I think it could use some more exploration. It's clearly the least played GSC tier (except maybe LC) and with hitmonchan banned, I'm hoping it will see some new developments.

From what I've heard ZU already gets a fair amount of tour attention, so I think if any of UUBL, PU, or ZU needs to be cut, I'd personally remove ZU. I'm open to ZU though if its supporters can argue a good case to keep it.

 

[Celebiii]

I'm so excited for this tournament and the potential it has to improve and give exposure to some fun GSC lower tiers! Keeping in mind the goals of the tournament as mentioned above:

• Be competitive
• Give underserved tiers additional exposure
• Let fans of GSC lower tiers showcase their abilities
• Develop the metagames of GSC lower tiers

I believe the best option to be Option 3.5, that being Ubers / UUBL / UU / NU / PU, with UU being used to test possible UUBL drops into the tier. This gives UUBL exposure for the excellent tier it is, while also providing potential for current UU to be improved by testing potential additions. Out of the two of these, testing potential drops into UU is the more important one for me. I am not very well versed in GSC ZU or LC, so if the communities of these tiers strongly feel that they could use increased exposure or testing bans/unbans to improve them, then I'd be fine with them taking the place of UUBL. But I do believe now is the time to improve UU as it faces a stagnant metagame with a dwindling playerbase and deteriorating reputation, and so this is the thing I will push most strongly for.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Definitely 3.5

I very much enjoy GSC UU and GSC Ubers. Specifically for GSC UU, I do agree with prior comments that this could be a good opportunity to suspect something as long as we keep it reasonable. I've seen a few GSC UU mains just sort of stop playing the tier and while I enjoy it, it wouldn't hurt at all to try to suspect like 1-4 things here to see how it can play out. Not going to get into what, specifically, should be suspected, but I am currently hosting a discord tour with like 12 selective UUBL drops, so I could help gather some data/replays later as to what could potentially be workable for a suspect there. I already have some thoughts to share later on that potentially. I know Celebiii also has loads of GSC UUBL information for that.

Personally I'd like to see a GSC UU Suspect slot over a GSC UUBL slot if only to help see if we can actually change the tier in a positive direction, although simply having the GSC UU slot itself be a suspect slot is also just fine.

 

[vani]

When I came I up with the idea for a GSC Grand Slam and brought it to Siatam it was to give the established lower tiers (Ubers, UU, NU) their own tournament and bring new players into these tiers. Right now besides the yearly Spotlight tournament the tiers are mostly at the mercy of their lower tier community and have one individual at most and are included in 1-2 team tournaments (+GSCPL and ALTPL). For newer player it’s incredibly difficult to actually play these tiers in tournaments. So having an individual tournament in the GSC community for these tiers would be great and I‘m glad it’s happening!

Option 1 is the only viable option for me because of this. PU and ZU are already established in their own tier community, have plenty of resources, a small player base and tournaments. So they fit in perfectly in this tournament to bring in new players to try them.

I know UUBL got some traction the past year with like two tournaments and some resources but I feel like we should rather fix the messy tiering that was made over a decade in testing some of the mons and reduce UUBL before we make it a tier in this tournament. I don’t know much about LC but I feel like it doesn’t belong in this tournament atleast this year.

tldr; option 1 > option 1 with UU suspect

 

[cherryb0ng]

I don't have a chance to read everyone's thoughts right now but I do agree that ZU is a better experience than PU. ZU has proven that, while it has some wacky moments, has a degree of variance and balance that is akin to GSC NU and is a pleasant experience. But I'll give PU the benefit of the doubt if there are people really vouching for it. It's not like we can't address the issues before the slam happens.

As for the UU metagame, I am currently not invested in it very much because I believe that building has become stagnant and I really appreciate how people of the UU community like BFM and Celebii are giving a voice to an opinion that we can lower some BL mons. Currently there is a side tournament which involves certain UUBL suspects you can see here and I would strongly suggest we have a look at some of these options.

My take is to go for something like option 3.5 (Basically like option 1 but with UU + suspects) because it keeps the grand slam format with a level of integrity that allows people with lesser experience but who have played similar grand slams to easily shift over. HOWEVER, in my opinion it could be a good idea to do UU+Suspects at least for the first iteration.



MukinGSCUU

 

[Blaine500]

I would most definitely favor Option #1 that you listed above cause I think PU & ZU deserve more exploring and coupling this with UU & NU is a pretty complete experience for a tour of the lower tiers imo.
Besides, Beelzemon 2003 already does an amazing job covering all things related to LC and has whole things for it specifically.

 

[SOMALIA]

Option 1

 

[Mr.378]

UUBL is heat so option 3 is best imo.

 

[TLTK]

Option 1.

 

[EllingtonReborn]

Option 3.5 is an option I'm very fond of. UU has been regarded to be very stagnant, so it can absolutely be a positive direction for the tier if we suspect test it, either banning the overly constricting forces or allow a great equalizer in. It'll also be nice to see UUBL get some love alongside the other tiers.

 

[mkizzy]

I think that GSC ZU (and by that logic, GSC PU) really deserve exposure here, so Option 1 is what I like but I also dont hate the idea of suspecting something especially in UU's case where it seems like a vocal part of the community wants some sort of movement or change.

 

[Conflict]

I don't really care too much about this but I am happy to see Ubers get more representation.

I dont really have a preference as to what tiers this should include but honestly feel that any tier under NU in gens before DPP/BW is pretty unnecessary (due to lower amount of overall mons).
I also firmly believe this should be taken as an opportunity to improve one of the worst gsc tiers in UU by testing out some BL's. UU is dominated by Resttalkers just sitting in on each other and ppstalling with 1-2 setupmons (Granbull/Scyther) being scary af. I would say unban almost all BL's aside from the obvious broken ones and develop a new better meta from there. Might actually make UU cool and interesting.

 

[twigster]

Option 3.5, I like the idea of suspecting some of UUBL.

And I'd also agree that since GSC doesn't have that many pokemon, having super-low tiers like PU/ZU is just... it's a lot.

I had no idea people played GSC little cup. Seems pretty fast if you have no eviolite.

 

[Siatam]

Based on the feedback in this thread, the format for GSC Grand Slam will be: Ubers, UU Suspect, NU, PU, and ZU.
The majority of posters had option 3.5 as their first preference, and cited a desire to trial changes in UU. While there may be suspect worthy changes in other tiers, these did not have as consistent support as UU.

We will now have a community vote in order to determine exactly what is to be trialed in the UU tournament.

Information to keep in mind while voting:
- This vote has 0 influence on actual GSC UU tiering. This vote is simply to decide the format of UU in this tournament. Any actual tiering changes to UU will need to be proposed in a PR thread and voted on accordingly

- Voting will be conducted as free response, ranked choice voting. (Instant runoff voting) Voters may list as many potential bans/unbans as they want, ranked in order of preference. The winning format will be decided by the instant runoff voting algorithm

- Your votes can only be for 1 ban or 1 unban at a time. Votes not following this format will be discarded. Multiple bans/unbans at the same time are difficult to justify from a tiering policy perspective, and we want any format tested in the tournament to be a realistic change that could be implemented in UU.
(i.e you can vote to Ban Pikachu or to Unban Tauros, but you cannot vote Ban Pikachu + Ban Qwilfish or Ban Pikachu + Unban Tauros at the same time.)

- The format decided on will last the entire duration of GSC Slam including playoffs

An example ballot may look like this:
1. Ban Pikachu
2. Unban Tauros
3. Ban Qwilfish
4. Unban Charizard

Click here to vote.

Voting will be open for approximately 1 week, or until submissions seem to have stopped. The schedule for GSC Slam will be announced shortly after voting has closed.

Pinging everyone who has voiced their feedback in this thread:
Estarossa BeeOrSomething MrSoup pp's splash town Celebiii BigFatMantis vani cherryb0ng Blaine500 SOMALIA Mr.378 EllingtonReborn kenny Conflict twigster

 

[BigFatMantis]

Based on the feedback in this thread, the format for GSC Grand Slam will be: Ubers, UU Suspect, NU, PU, and ZU.
The majority of posters had option 3.5 as their first preference, and cited a desire to trial changes in UU. While there may be suspect worthy changes in other tiers, these did not have as consistent support as UU.

We will now have a community vote in order to determine exactly what is to be trialed in the UU tournament.

Information to keep in mind while voting:
- This vote has 0 influence on actual GSC UU tiering. This vote is simply to decide the format of UU in this tournament. Any actual tiering changes to UU will need to be proposed in a PR thread and voted on accordingly

- Voting will be conducted as free response, ranked choice voting. (Instant runoff voting) Voters may list as many potential bans/unbans as they want, ranked in order of preference. The winning format will be decided by the instant runoff voting algorithm

- Your votes can only be for 1 ban or 1 unban. Votes not following this format will be discarded. Multiple bans/unbans at the same time are difficult to justify from a tiering policy perspective, and we want any format tested in the tournament to be a realistic change that could be implemented in UU.
(i.e you can vote to Ban Pikachu or to Unban Tauros, but you cannot vote Ban Pikachu + Ban Qwilfish or Ban Pikachu + Unban Tauros at the same time.)

- The format decided on will last the entire duration of GSC Slam including playoffs

An example ballot may look like this:
1. Ban Pikachu
2. Unban Tauros
3. Ban Qwilfish
4. Unban Charizard

Click here to vote.

Voting will be open for approximately 1 week, or until submissions seem to have stopped. The schedule for GSC Slam will be announced shortly after voting has closed.

Pinging everyone who has voiced their feedback in this thread:
Estarossa BeeOrSomething MrSoup pp's splash town Celebiii BigFatMantis vani cherryb0ng Blaine500 SOMALIA Mr.378 EllingtonReborn kenny Conflict twigster

Thank you for setting this up. Just for clarification, on the current voting doc, can we list as many things as we want? Or only one thing to ban and unban. It was a bit confusing since the first paragraph says we can list as many things we want, but the next says we can only vote to unban one thing (I think this may refer to the subsequent vote?). Just want to make sure I’m doing this correctly, thanks again.

 

[Siatam]

Thank you for setting this up. Just for clarification, on the current voting doc, can we list as many things as we want? Or only one thing to ban and unban. It was a bit confusing since the first paragraph says we can list as many things we want, but the next says we can only vote to unban one thing (I think this may refer to the subsequent vote?). Just want to make sure I’m doing this correctly, thanks again.

You can list any many options as you like, but you may only list 1 ban/unban per "rank".
Basically you cannot vote to ban and/or unban multiple mons at the same time.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Oh I see, so I could vote “1. Ban Raichu, Unban Pikachu.
2. Ban Cubone”

But I cannot do:
“1. Ban Raichu, Ban Cubone”

Makes sense, thank you.

 

[Siatam]

Oh I see, so I could vote “1. Ban Raichu, Unban Pikachu.
2. Ban Cubone”

But I cannot do:
“1. Ban Raichu, Ban Cubone”

Makes sense, thank you.

No, both of these votes are invalid
1. Ban Raichu, Unban Pikachu.
1. Ban Raichu, Ban Cubone

Two changes will not happen at the same time.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Oh ok, I see now. Thank you.

 

[cherryb0ng]

Like the average voter at any election, I'm too stupid to understand this vote.

 

[pp's splash town]

Like the average voter at any election, I'm too stupid to understand this vote.

You can list as many options as you like, but you can only have 1 tier alteration per selected option.
For example, my submission was:
1) unban aero
2) unban muk
3) unban lapras
4) unban typhlosion

It would have been invalid if I had combined these together (unban aero + muk), or had paired them with a ban (unban aero + ban bp). Hope that helps.