GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V

I haven't looked at this thread in a while and it seems the tier descriptions might have changed since then. S tier accidentally mentions Gen 4. With C Tier being above average, D tier being average and E tier being low should we expect the amount of Pokemon in E tier to be about as many as S through C tier?
 
I haven't looked at this thread in a while and it seems the tier descriptions might have changed since then. S tier accidentally mentions Gen 4. With C Tier being above average, D tier being average and E tier being low should we expect the amount of Pokemon in E tier to be about as many as S through C tier?
The Gen 4 thing may have been a leftover from a C/P from HGSS so I'll get that removed, thanks for telling me. As for expectations, potentially. In HGSS, C to E each had around 18-22 Pokemon. We may see the same here but some Pokemon are gonna be in different tiers due to the Punches and various other factors. A good example is Pidgey is oddly strong in this game (I believe the Badge Boosts are the cause) but even then it falls off around Morty as the Pidgeotto phase is very mediocre.
 
Apologies for not posting this, i've been away from doing logs but luckily i was around Victory Road by the time i stopped, so might as well finished it. I've also been trying to do other games to make logs before deciding to continue this, with one of them being HGSS (this one, in particular, is only for self-experience purposes)
=Falkner=
Hoothoot L11
Peck has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and it 6HKOs Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto speed ties

At Level 12
Peck reliably 3HKOs Pidgey, but is close to 5HKOing Pidgeotto

Needs Potion. Hoothoot is so close to reliably sweep this matchup even with a Berry.
=Bugsy=
Hoothoot L16-17
Peck 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther.
=Rival 2=
Hoothoot L18
Peck 2HKOs Gastly and 3HKOs Zubat and Bayleef
=Whitney=
Noctowl L20
Pink Bow Swift 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds

Noctowl relies on landing a Hypnosis and hope Miltank doesn't woke up sooner.
=Rival 3=
Noctowl L22
Peck 2HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse and 3HKOs Bayleef
Return 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Magnemite
=Morty=
Noctowl L23
Peck 2HKOs Gastly(1HKOs after it uses Curse), 3HKOs L21Haunter(the first one is 2HKOed after it uses Curse) 4HKOs L23 Haunter and is close to 5HKOing Gengar.
=Chuck=
Noctowl L30
Peck 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath
=Jasmine=
Noctowl L30
Pink Bow Return 3HKOs the Magnemites

Not good. Noctowl relies on landing a Hypnosis to reliably beat Magnemite, and needs a Nightmare TM for Steelix.
=Pryce=
Noctowl L31
Return 2HKOs Seel, 3HKOs Dewgong and 4HKOs Piloswine

Needs to land a Hypnosis to win.
=Rival 4=
Noctowl L32-33
Return 3HKOs Golbat, Magnemite and Sneasel, and 4HKOs Meganium(6HKOs after it uses Reflect). Meganium 4HKOs back with Body Slam.
Peck 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after it uses Curse)
Fly 2HKOs Haunter(1HKOs after it uses Curse) and Meganium(3HKOs after it uses Reflect turn 2)
=Clair=
Noctowl L38
Return has high chance at 2HKOing the Dragonairs and it 4HKOs Kingdra
=Rival 5=
Noctowl L39
Return 2HKOs Sneasel, 3HKOs Golbat, 1HKOs Kadabra and, 4HKOs Meganium(without Reflect) and is close to 4HKOing Magneton

Peck 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after it uses Curse)
Fly 2HKOs Haunter and is close to 2HKOing Meganium
=Will=
Noctowl L40
Pink Bow Return 3HKOs Exeggutor, seems a 5HKO on Slowbro without Curse boost, puts Jynx in red, and is close to 2HKOing the Xatus. The Xatu outspeeds and 3HKOs back, Jynx outspeeds and 2HKOs back
=Koga=
Noctowl L40
Pink Bow 2HKOs Venomoth, 3HKOs Crobat and is close to 2HKOing Ariados and 3HKOing Muk. Crobat 3HKOs back
Forretress is a no
=Bruno=
Noctowl L41
Noctowl finally learns a move that uses its higher Special Attack stat and... its an unSTAB 50 BP Confusion a.k.a. the same move Butterfree gets at the beginning of the game

Pink Bow Return 3HKOs Top, 2HKOs Lee
Confusion is close to 3HKOing Onix
Fly 2HKOs Chan, 3HKOs Machamp and is close to 1HKOing Lee
=Karen=
Noctowl L41
Pink Bow Return 4HKOs Umbreon, 3HKOs Vileplume, 2HKOs Murkrow and is close to 2HKOing Houndoom.
Confusion 2HKOs Gengar after it uses Curse
=Lance=
Noctowl L42
Pink Bow Return 3HKOs Gyarados and Charizard, 4HKOs L47 Dragonite, 5HKOs L50 Dragonite
Aerodactyl is a no
I'll go for D Tier. 50 base Attack is just... weak and sometimes needs to land an innacurate Hypnosis. I couldn't say much aside from that.

=Whitney=
Vulpix L20
Charcoal Ember 5HKOs Clefairy
Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy
Miltank 2HKOs back with Stomp
=Rival 3=
Vulpix L22
Charcoal Ember 2HKOs Haunter(after it uses Curse) and Magnemite, 4HKOs Bayleef and is close to 3HKOing Zubat
Headbutt 3HKOs Zubat
=Morty=
Vulpix L23
Charcoal Ember 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs the first one after it uses Curse), 7HKOs Gengar and is close to 2HKOing Gastly(close to 1HKOing after it uses Curse)
Dig 2HKOs Haunter, 3HKOs Gengar and is close to 1HKOing Gastly
=Chuck=
Vulpix L30
Charcoal Ember 5HKOs Primeape

Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOs Primeape and 6HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 1HKOs back

As Level 31
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Primeape.
=Jasmine=
Vulpix L30
Charcoal Ember 2HKOs the Magnemite and 4HKOs Steelix. Vulpix survives a Rock Throw at full

As Level 31
Charcoal Flamethrower 1HKOs the Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Vulpix survives a Rock Throw at full
=Pryce=
Vulpix L31
Headbutt 3HKOs Seel
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Piloswine and is close to 3HKOing Dewgong
=Rival 4=
Vulpix L32
Flamethrower 3HKOs Golbat, 1HKOs Magnemite, 2HKOs Haunter(1HKOs after it uses Curse) and Meganium and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel. Golbat 2HKOs back. Haunter outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back at full health.
=Clair=
Vulpix L38
Return 4HKOs the Dragonairs. The first Dragonair 2HKOs back with Surf while the other two 3HKOs back with Slam.
Kingdra outspeeds and 1HKOs back.
=Rival 5=
Vulpix L39
Charcoal Flamethrower 1HKOs Sneasel and Magneton, 2HKOs Haunter, Kadabra and Meganium, and is close at 2HKOing Golbat
=Will=
Vulpix L40
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Jynx, puts Exeggutor in red, and is close to 2HKOing Xatus. Xatus and Jynx outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Slowbro is a no
=Koga=
Vulpix L40
Charcoal Flamethrower 1HKOs Forretress, 2HKOs Venomoth, 4HKOs Crobat and has a roll to 1HKO Ariados. Venomoth outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back, Crobat 2HKOs back, Muk 1HKOs back
=Bruno=
Vulpix L41
Charcoal Flamethrower 5HKOs Machamp and is close to 3HKOing the Hitmons. Hitmonchan almost 2HKOs back, Hitmontop KOs back with Dig followed by Quick Attack.
=Karen=
Vulpix L41
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Gengar(after it uses Curse), Vileplume and Murkrow and is close to 5HKOing Umbreon. Murkrow outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back

=Lance=
Vulpix L42
Vulpix does nothing back to Gyarados while it 1HKOs back. the rest outspeeds and 1HKOs back
Mixed between D or E honestly, but i could go for D. Vulpix misses out the first two Gym because the Grass part on Route 36 are on the other side which locked behind Sudowoodo (The Grass part on the left is exclusive to Crystal). It has same issue as Quilava where its stuck with Ember until Level 31, and at that point, its largely hampered by poor stats and the Fire Stone is locked to post-game. Though being able to sweep through Jasmine and having some uses against Fire-weak mon is what would allowed it in D Tier.

=Whitney=
Kadabra L21
Psybeam 2HKOs Clefairy and has a roll to 2HKO Miltank.

Needs to reach Level 21 for Psybeam and hope Clefairy doesn't chip you in range of a Stomp KO or relying on Miltank going for Rollout.
=Rival 3=
Kadabra L22
Psybeam 1HKOs Haunter and Zubat
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Bayleef
=Morty=
Kadabra L23
Psybeam 1HKOs all except Gengar. Gengar 1HKOs back

Kadabra needs to reach L25 to 1HKO Gengar, albeit its a roll
=Chuck=
Kadabra L30
Psybeam 1HKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath
=Jasmine=
Kadabra L30
Fire Punch 1HKOs the Magnemites and 2HKOs Steelix. Steelix 1HKOs back

Kadabra relies on Steelix missing an Iron Tail.
=Pryce=
Kadabra L31
Thunderpunch 1HKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong.
Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine
=Rival 4=
Kadabra L32-33
Psybeam 1HKOs Golbat and Haunter
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel and Meganium
=Clair=
Kadabra L38
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 1HKOs the Dragonairs
Psychic 2HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra 1HKOs back with Hyper Beam
=Rival 5=
Kadabra L39
Fire Punch 1HKOs Sneasel and Magneton, and 2HKOs Kadabra and Meganium
Psychic 1HKOs Golbat and Haunter
=Will=
Kadabra L40
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 1HKOs L40 Xatu and is close to 1HKOing L42 Xatu
Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor
Thunder Punch 2HKO Slowbro(3HKOs after an Amnesia)
=Koga=
Kadabra L40
Psychic 1HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and is close to 1HKOing Muk and Crobat. Muk 1HKOs back
Fire Punch 1HKOs Forretress
=Bruno=
Kadabra L41
Psychic 1HKOs all bar Machamp, who is close to 1HKOing. Machamp almost 1HKOs back(guaranteed if Hitmonchan went for Mach Punch)
=Karen=
Kadabra L41
Psychic 1HKOs Gengar(Kadabra outspeeds) and Vileplume
Ice Punch 1HKOs Murkrow and 5HKOs Umbreon. Umbreon 2HKOs back
=Lance=
Kadabra L42-43
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Charizard and is super close to 1HKOing Gyarados(guaranteed with Magnet)
Ice Punch has a roll to 1HKO L47 Dragonites(guaranteed with Nevermeltice) and is close to 1HKOing L50 Dragonite(guaranteed at Level 43 with Nevermeltice)
All 1HKOs back, Aerodactyl outspeeds
I think this is obvious to everyone, this is S Tier. Between good Speed and the ability to dish out big damage thanks to a combo of STAB + 3 punches that hits like 90% of the game super-effectively combined with a high Special Attack stat. The difference between Kadabra and Alakazam are minor, with one of them being some few KO range that Alakazam reaches that Kadabra doesn't.

=Rival 3=
Girafarig L21
Confusion 1HKOs Zubat, 4HKOs Magnemite, and is close to 1HKOing Haunter
Headbutt 3HKOs Magnemite and Bayleef
=Morty=
Girafarig L23
Confusion 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Gengar, has a roll to 1HKO L21 Haunter and is close to 1HKOing L23 Haunter
=Chuck=
Girafarig L30
Confusion 2HKOs Primeape and is close to 2HKOing Poliwrath
=Jasmine=
Girafarig L30
Headbutt 3HKOs the Magnemites
Steelix is a no.
=Pryce=
Girafarig L31
Headbutt 3HKOs Piloswine and is close to 2HKOing Dewgong

Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Dewgong and is close to 1HKOing Seel and 2HKOing Piloswine
=Rival 4=
Girafarig L32-33
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Golbat, Magnemite and Sneasel and 3HKOs Meganium(4HKOs after it uses Reflect). Sneasel outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Confusion 2HKOs Golbat and 1HKOs Haunter
=Clair=
Girafarig L38
Strength 2HKOs the Dragonairs and 3HKOs Kingdra.
=Rival 5=
Girafarig L39
Pink Bow Strength 1HKOs Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Meganium without Reflect, and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel
Pink Bow Return 1HKOs Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Meganium(close to 4HKOing with Reflect up), and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel
Earthquake 1HKOs Magneton and Haunter

Meganium didn't go for Reflect when i tried Strength
=Will=
Girafarig L40
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs the Xatus, 3HKOs Exeggutor and is close to 1HKOing Jynx

Pink Bow Return 2HKOs the Xatus, 1HKOs Jynx and is close to 2HKOing Exeggutor and 3HKOing Slowbro without Curse boost
=Koga=
Girafarig L40
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth and 3HKOs Crobat
Earthquake 2HKOs Muk and is close to 5HKOing Forretress

At Level 41
Psybeam 2HKOs Venomoth and Crobat and is close to 1HKOing Ariados and 2HKOing Muk
=Bruno=
Girafarig L41
Psybeam 2HKOs all. Machamp almost 1HKOs back
=Karen=
Girafarig L41
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Murkrow and is close to 3HKOing Umbreon. Umbreon can 2HKO back
Earthquake KOs Gengar after it uses Curse and it 2HKOs Houndoom(tested this one with Agility). Houndoom outspeeds and 1HKOs back
Psybeam 2HKOs Vileplume
=Lance=
Girafarig L42
Pink Bow Return 4HKOs L50 Dragonite and 3HKOs Gyarados(was put in red in 2 hits), Charizard and L47 Dragonites. Charizard outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Psybeam is close to 3HKOing Aerodactyl
Mixed between B or A. Its a solid Normal-type and I could say its a little bit better than Tauros and Miltank, mostly because of its Psychic Typing and better leveling rate. I can't properly put my full thoughts on this one yet

I actually started my next run with Teddiursa/Nidoqueen/Gyarados(Red)/Seel/Suicune(Crystal) already (currently in the midgame). I'm also planning to review my previous nominations too in case i could change my mind on some of them.
 
Apologies for not posting this, i've been away from doing logs but luckily i was around Victory Road by the time i stopped, so might as well finished it. I've also been trying to do other games to make logs before deciding to continue this, with one of them being HGSS (this one, in particular, is only for self-experience purposes)
=Falkner=
Hoothoot L11
Peck has a roll to 3HKO Pidgey and it 6HKOs Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto speed ties

At Level 12
Peck reliably 3HKOs Pidgey, but is close to 5HKOing Pidgeotto

Needs Potion. Hoothoot is so close to reliably sweep this matchup even with a Berry.
=Bugsy=
Hoothoot L16-17
Peck 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther.
=Rival 2=
Hoothoot L18
Peck 2HKOs Gastly and 3HKOs Zubat and Bayleef
=Whitney=
Noctowl L20
Pink Bow Swift 2HKOs Clefairy and 5HKOs Miltank. Miltank outspeeds

Noctowl relies on landing a Hypnosis and hope Miltank doesn't woke up sooner.
=Rival 3=
Noctowl L22
Peck 2HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse and 3HKOs Bayleef
Return 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Magnemite
=Morty=
Noctowl L23
Peck 2HKOs Gastly(1HKOs after it uses Curse), 3HKOs L21Haunter(the first one is 2HKOed after it uses Curse) 4HKOs L23 Haunter and is close to 5HKOing Gengar.
=Chuck=
Noctowl L30
Peck 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath
Return 2HKOs Primeape and 4HKOs Poliwrath
=Jasmine=
Noctowl L30
Pink Bow Return 3HKOs the Magnemites

Not good. Noctowl relies on landing a Hypnosis to reliably beat Magnemite, and needs a Nightmare TM for Steelix.
=Pryce=
Noctowl L31
Return 2HKOs Seel, 3HKOs Dewgong and 4HKOs Piloswine

Needs to land a Hypnosis to win.
=Rival 4=
Noctowl L32-33
Return 3HKOs Golbat, Magnemite and Sneasel, and 4HKOs Meganium(6HKOs after it uses Reflect). Meganium 4HKOs back with Body Slam.
Peck 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after it uses Curse)
Fly 2HKOs Haunter(1HKOs after it uses Curse) and Meganium(3HKOs after it uses Reflect turn 2)
=Clair=
Noctowl L38
Return has high chance at 2HKOing the Dragonairs and it 4HKOs Kingdra
=Rival 5=
Noctowl L39
Return 2HKOs Sneasel, 3HKOs Golbat, 1HKOs Kadabra and, 4HKOs Meganium(without Reflect) and is close to 4HKOing Magneton

Peck 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after it uses Curse)
Fly 2HKOs Haunter and is close to 2HKOing Meganium
=Will=
Noctowl L40
Pink Bow Return 3HKOs Exeggutor, seems a 5HKO on Slowbro without Curse boost, puts Jynx in red, and is close to 2HKOing the Xatus. The Xatu outspeeds and 3HKOs back, Jynx outspeeds and 2HKOs back
=Koga=
Noctowl L40
Pink Bow 2HKOs Venomoth, 3HKOs Crobat and is close to 2HKOing Ariados and 3HKOing Muk. Crobat 3HKOs back
Forretress is a no
=Bruno=
Noctowl L41
Noctowl finally learns a move that uses its higher Special Attack stat and... its an unSTAB 50 BP Confusion a.k.a. the same move Butterfree gets at the beginning of the game

Pink Bow Return 3HKOs Top, 2HKOs Lee
Confusion is close to 3HKOing Onix
Fly 2HKOs Chan, 3HKOs Machamp and is close to 1HKOing Lee
=Karen=
Noctowl L41
Pink Bow Return 4HKOs Umbreon, 3HKOs Vileplume, 2HKOs Murkrow and is close to 2HKOing Houndoom.
Confusion 2HKOs Gengar after it uses Curse
=Lance=
Noctowl L42
Pink Bow Return 3HKOs Gyarados and Charizard, 4HKOs L47 Dragonite, 5HKOs L50 Dragonite
Aerodactyl is a no
I'll go for D Tier. 50 base Attack is just... weak and sometimes needs to land an innacurate Hypnosis. I couldn't say much aside from that.

=Whitney=
Vulpix L20
Charcoal Ember 5HKOs Clefairy
Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOs Clefairy
Miltank 2HKOs back with Stomp
=Rival 3=
Vulpix L22
Charcoal Ember 2HKOs Haunter(after it uses Curse) and Magnemite, 4HKOs Bayleef and is close to 3HKOing Zubat
Headbutt 3HKOs Zubat
=Morty=
Vulpix L23
Charcoal Ember 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs the first one after it uses Curse), 7HKOs Gengar and is close to 2HKOing Gastly(close to 1HKOing after it uses Curse)
Dig 2HKOs Haunter, 3HKOs Gengar and is close to 1HKOing Gastly
=Chuck=
Vulpix L30
Charcoal Ember 5HKOs Primeape

Pink Bow Headbutt 3HKOs Primeape and 6HKOs Poliwrath. Poliwrath 1HKOs back

As Level 31
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Primeape.
=Jasmine=
Vulpix L30
Charcoal Ember 2HKOs the Magnemite and 4HKOs Steelix. Vulpix survives a Rock Throw at full

As Level 31
Charcoal Flamethrower 1HKOs the Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Vulpix survives a Rock Throw at full
=Pryce=
Vulpix L31
Headbutt 3HKOs Seel
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Piloswine and is close to 3HKOing Dewgong
=Rival 4=
Vulpix L32
Flamethrower 3HKOs Golbat, 1HKOs Magnemite, 2HKOs Haunter(1HKOs after it uses Curse) and Meganium and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel. Golbat 2HKOs back. Haunter outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back at full health.
=Clair=
Vulpix L38
Return 4HKOs the Dragonairs. The first Dragonair 2HKOs back with Surf while the other two 3HKOs back with Slam.
Kingdra outspeeds and 1HKOs back.
=Rival 5=
Vulpix L39
Charcoal Flamethrower 1HKOs Sneasel and Magneton, 2HKOs Haunter, Kadabra and Meganium, and is close at 2HKOing Golbat
=Will=
Vulpix L40
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Jynx, puts Exeggutor in red, and is close to 2HKOing Xatus. Xatus and Jynx outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Slowbro is a no
=Koga=
Vulpix L40
Charcoal Flamethrower 1HKOs Forretress, 2HKOs Venomoth, 4HKOs Crobat and has a roll to 1HKO Ariados. Venomoth outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back, Crobat 2HKOs back, Muk 1HKOs back
=Bruno=
Vulpix L41
Charcoal Flamethrower 5HKOs Machamp and is close to 3HKOing the Hitmons. Hitmonchan almost 2HKOs back, Hitmontop KOs back with Dig followed by Quick Attack.
=Karen=
Vulpix L41
Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Gengar(after it uses Curse), Vileplume and Murkrow and is close to 5HKOing Umbreon. Murkrow outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back

=Lance=
Vulpix L42
Vulpix does nothing back to Gyarados while it 1HKOs back. the rest outspeeds and 1HKOs back
Mixed between D or E honestly, but i could go for D. Vulpix misses out the first two Gym because the Grass part on Route 36 are on the other side which locked behind Sudowoodo (The Grass part on the left is exclusive to Crystal). It has same issue as Quilava where its stuck with Ember until Level 31, and at that point, its largely hampered by poor stats and the Fire Stone is locked to post-game. Though being able to sweep through Jasmine and having some uses against Fire-weak mon is what would allowed it in D Tier.

=Whitney=
Kadabra L21
Psybeam 2HKOs Clefairy and has a roll to 2HKO Miltank.

Needs to reach Level 21 for Psybeam and hope Clefairy doesn't chip you in range of a Stomp KO or relying on Miltank going for Rollout.
=Rival 3=
Kadabra L22
Psybeam 1HKOs Haunter and Zubat
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Bayleef
=Morty=
Kadabra L23
Psybeam 1HKOs all except Gengar. Gengar 1HKOs back

Kadabra needs to reach L25 to 1HKO Gengar, albeit its a roll
=Chuck=
Kadabra L30
Psybeam 1HKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath
=Jasmine=
Kadabra L30
Fire Punch 1HKOs the Magnemites and 2HKOs Steelix. Steelix 1HKOs back

Kadabra relies on Steelix missing an Iron Tail.
=Pryce=
Kadabra L31
Thunderpunch 1HKOs Seel and 2HKOs Dewgong.
Fire Punch 2HKOs Piloswine
=Rival 4=
Kadabra L32-33
Psybeam 1HKOs Golbat and Haunter
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel and Meganium
=Clair=
Kadabra L38
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 1HKOs the Dragonairs
Psychic 2HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra 1HKOs back with Hyper Beam
=Rival 5=
Kadabra L39
Fire Punch 1HKOs Sneasel and Magneton, and 2HKOs Kadabra and Meganium
Psychic 1HKOs Golbat and Haunter
=Will=
Kadabra L40
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 1HKOs L40 Xatu and is close to 1HKOing L42 Xatu
Fire Punch 2HKOs Jynx and Exeggutor
Thunder Punch 2HKO Slowbro(3HKOs after an Amnesia)
=Koga=
Kadabra L40
Psychic 1HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and is close to 1HKOing Muk and Crobat. Muk 1HKOs back
Fire Punch 1HKOs Forretress
=Bruno=
Kadabra L41
Psychic 1HKOs all bar Machamp, who is close to 1HKOing. Machamp almost 1HKOs back(guaranteed if Hitmonchan went for Mach Punch)
=Karen=
Kadabra L41
Psychic 1HKOs Gengar(Kadabra outspeeds) and Vileplume
Ice Punch 1HKOs Murkrow and 5HKOs Umbreon. Umbreon 2HKOs back
=Lance=
Kadabra L42-43
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Charizard and is super close to 1HKOing Gyarados(guaranteed with Magnet)
Ice Punch has a roll to 1HKO L47 Dragonites(guaranteed with Nevermeltice) and is close to 1HKOing L50 Dragonite(guaranteed at Level 43 with Nevermeltice)
All 1HKOs back, Aerodactyl outspeeds
I think this is obvious to everyone, this is S Tier. Between good Speed and the ability to dish out big damage thanks to a combo of STAB + 3 punches that hits like 90% of the game super-effectively combined with a high Special Attack stat. The difference between Kadabra and Alakazam are minor, with one of them being some few KO range that Alakazam reaches that Kadabra doesn't.

=Rival 3=
Girafarig L21
Confusion 1HKOs Zubat, 4HKOs Magnemite, and is close to 1HKOing Haunter
Headbutt 3HKOs Magnemite and Bayleef
=Morty=
Girafarig L23
Confusion 1HKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Gengar, has a roll to 1HKO L21 Haunter and is close to 1HKOing L23 Haunter
=Chuck=
Girafarig L30
Confusion 2HKOs Primeape and is close to 2HKOing Poliwrath
=Jasmine=
Girafarig L30
Headbutt 3HKOs the Magnemites
Steelix is a no.
=Pryce=
Girafarig L31
Headbutt 3HKOs Piloswine and is close to 2HKOing Dewgong

Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Dewgong and is close to 1HKOing Seel and 2HKOing Piloswine
=Rival 4=
Girafarig L32-33
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Golbat, Magnemite and Sneasel and 3HKOs Meganium(4HKOs after it uses Reflect). Sneasel outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Confusion 2HKOs Golbat and 1HKOs Haunter
=Clair=
Girafarig L38
Strength 2HKOs the Dragonairs and 3HKOs Kingdra.
=Rival 5=
Girafarig L39
Pink Bow Strength 1HKOs Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Meganium without Reflect, and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel
Pink Bow Return 1HKOs Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Meganium(close to 4HKOing with Reflect up), and is close to 1HKOing Sneasel
Earthquake 1HKOs Magneton and Haunter

Meganium didn't go for Reflect when i tried Strength
=Will=
Girafarig L40
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs the Xatus, 3HKOs Exeggutor and is close to 1HKOing Jynx

Pink Bow Return 2HKOs the Xatus, 1HKOs Jynx and is close to 2HKOing Exeggutor and 3HKOing Slowbro without Curse boost
=Koga=
Girafarig L40
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth and 3HKOs Crobat
Earthquake 2HKOs Muk and is close to 5HKOing Forretress

At Level 41
Psybeam 2HKOs Venomoth and Crobat and is close to 1HKOing Ariados and 2HKOing Muk
=Bruno=
Girafarig L41
Psybeam 2HKOs all. Machamp almost 1HKOs back
=Karen=
Girafarig L41
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Murkrow and is close to 3HKOing Umbreon. Umbreon can 2HKO back
Earthquake KOs Gengar after it uses Curse and it 2HKOs Houndoom(tested this one with Agility). Houndoom outspeeds and 1HKOs back
Psybeam 2HKOs Vileplume
=Lance=
Girafarig L42
Pink Bow Return 4HKOs L50 Dragonite and 3HKOs Gyarados(was put in red in 2 hits), Charizard and L47 Dragonites. Charizard outspeeds and 2HKOs back
Psybeam is close to 3HKOing Aerodactyl
Mixed between B or A. Its a solid Normal-type and I could say its a little bit better than Tauros and Miltank, mostly because of its Psychic Typing and better leveling rate. I can't properly put my full thoughts on this one yet

I actually started my next run with Teddiursa/Nidoqueen/Gyarados(Red)/Seel/Suicune(Crystal) already (currently in the midgame). I'm also planning to review my previous nominations too in case i could change my mind on some of them.
I agree with a lot of these. I tried using Hoothoot awhile back and man.....it blows.

I would need to look around the old thread but I believe ASMRxism did an expose on the amount of money earned through the game as people were trying to figure out if you could get a Fire Blast early enough. However this may have been RBY. I do remember this being talked about though. If you can get a Fire Blast early enough (Game Corner), you may be able to argue even C for Vulpix however, I doubt you would have the funds in time to make an adequate case (IIRC, the usual time you get this upgrade is roughly Pryce post 6 badges.)

Giraf has the same case as it did in HGSS, B or A. I have yet to get a fresh outlook on Giraf but it may be able to function in both (It's an oddly good Pokemon)

Thanks for your continued testing.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
I tested the money saving thing myself back when I was doing my various runs in one of the older threads. It was a fairly crude test but I found that it was "possible" to obtain enough for one of the TMs between gyms 4 and 5 if you are extremely frugal. However, I don't think this is very realistic in an "efficient" playthrough and more likely it'll probably be closer to around the beginning of the Goldenrod Rocket arc before you'll have enough, maybe even a little earlier.

Silver Vulpix is fairly bad (D/E is a reasonable assessment based on the current descriptions of these tiers) but Flamethrower at level 31 is an ok niche given that it does more damage than most Fire STABs from other things at that point. Magmar's Fire Punch still out-damages it, but Quilava's Flame Wheel is weaker than Vulpix's Flamethrower for example (a temporary advantage that ends once Quilava evolves obviously), and it certainly beats Gold Growlithe's Ember/Flame Wheel). Pretty bad otherwise though, and it doesn't really have much else of interest in its move pool aside from maybe early Safeguard to stop Hypnosis and Thunder Wave in specific match-ups, a role which it would be mediocre at anyway.

(As an aside, when I was doing all my tests all those years ago I honestly found Gold Growlithe and Silver Vulpix to be reasonably interchangeable/equally mediocre and would have ranked them roughly the same tier-wise, or maybe Gold Growlithe being 1 tier above Vulpix AT MOST. Growlithe is better initially and is probably a better "allrounder" (obviously uses physical moves more effectively and probably has enough power to not have to be spamming Fire Blast all the time on routes to avoid being useless) but then Vulpix gets Flamethrower and becomes comparatively more consistent at spamming fire on stuff late-game.)
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
I'd say GS Growlithe/Vulpix should just be D-tier both, as someone that's used both. They are usable enough that you cannot call them completely trash, but I am not sure if there's anything going for them to warrant anything higher. You can check out my logs somewhere in this thread if you need detailed summary of those

As for money, I can concur that, with optimiziation, it is possible to get a GC TM before Chuck. However, this is not in the realms of efficiency, as it's been stated, and there's the fact that many Pokemon generally appreciate a GC TM, so those have quite a big competition.

Regarding Girafarig, this has been consistently on the edge; many people, including myself, have found it on the edge of B and A, with one person being more confident in A-tier. I'd argue it's pretty much a better Miltank/Tauros, as it performs somewhere on a similar level in most matchups with a bunch of matchups being improved by the Psychic typing, while also lacking many of Tauros/Miltank's negative traits (like rarity and Slow growth rate). The only major disadvantage to Girafarig from experience is that you have to go a bit out of your way to get it for Morty, but given you aren't gonna spend much time finding/catching it, I'd say it's still "better" in terms of availability.

I would honestly say that it should go to A-tier at this point, with B-tier remaining a possibility if people have too many issues with it. It is also worth mentioning that Girafarig performs better in here than HGSS thanks to badge boosts, which allow it to perform fairly well in neutral matchups, which is not the case in HGSS, where it struggles somewhat in those matchups there

As for Hoothoot, I agree with D-tier and have used it (I believe) and have logs here around. It's just... not good, at least in HGSS it has some special moves to deal actual damage, here, its damage output is just too sad to warrant serious usage.
 
It's been a while since I did a run but I remember pretty easily being able to afford a Fire Blast by the time you need it without going out of my way to fight every trainer, although I always sell my vitamins so I don't have to worry about how they should affect testing and grab the nugget at the farm.
 
Finished my run, this time i tried a little bit different of how i would post my logs
=Falkner=
Teddiursa L11
Scratch 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto. Pidgeotto outspeeds but it only 6HKOs back(dealing 6/36 hp).

Clean sweep even without a Berry
=Bugsy=
Teddiursa L16-17
Scratch 2HKOs Kakuna and is close to 2HKOing Metapod(both are 3HKOed after a Harden) and 4HKOing Scyther
Fury Swipes(3 hits) 2HKOs Metapod and Kakuna even after going for Harden and it 3HKOs Scyther.

Swift 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther. Teddiursa lives 3 Fury Cutters

Needs Swift TM to reliably sweep and some luck against Kakuna not getting a Poison Sting status. Without Swift, it needs luck from Fury Swipes

=Rival 2=
Teddiursa L16-17 @ Pink Bow
Lick 2HKOs Gastly
Pink Bow Fury Swipes (4 hit) 1HKOs Zubat
Pink Bow Scratch 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Bayleef without Reflect. both outspeeds, Bayleef deals 12-15/51 hp back.
Pink Bow Swift 3HKOs Bayleef without Reflect and is close to 1HKOing Zubat

Needs luck for a full sweep. Without Swift TM, you need 1 heal, otherwise it only beats 2
=Whitney=
Teddiursa L20 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOs Clefairy and is super close to 3HKOing Miltank. Miltank outspeeds and 3HKOs back with Rollout, Stomp deals almost half.

Needs luck around Rollout miss to possibly sweep(if you can 3HKO Miltank)
=Rival 3=
Teddiursa L22-23 @ Charcoal
Faint Attack is super close to 1HKOing Haunter after it uses Curse
Charcoal Fire Punch is super close to 1HKOing Magnemite
Headbutt 1HKOs Zubat and is close to 2HKOing Bayleef without Reflect(guaranteed 5HKO if it does) and Magnemite. Zubat and Bayleef outspeeds, the latter deals 20/65 or 16/67

Beat 3 at best.
=Morty=
Teddiursa L25-26 @ Mint Berry
Faint Attack is super close to 1HKOing Gastly from full (guaranteed after it uses Curse), 2HKOs Haunter(1HKOs after it uses Curse) and 3HKOs Gengar. All outspeeds

Beats 2 or 3, but requires luck around Hypnosis. Tried to used Quick Claw to see Faint Attack damage on Gastly without Curse(took me multiple attempts).
=Pryce=
Ursaring L31 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Headbutt 1HKOs Seel and 2HKOs the rest, Ursaring outspeeds all. Piloswine 3HKOs back.

Clean sweep
=Chuck=
Ursaring L32 @ Mint Berry
Headbutt 1HKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath. Ursaring outspeeds Poliwrath and can survive a Dynamic Punch if Primeape didn't go for Leer or Karate Chop. It lives even after a Fury Swipes

Needs luck between whatever move Primeape goes for, a Dynamic Punch miss, and getting a Headbutt flinch. Poliwrath sometimes go for Hypnosis if your healthy enough to live a Dynamic Punch.
=Jasmine=
Ursaring L32 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Steelix almost 2HKOs back.
Clean sweep
=Rival 4=
Ursaring L34-35 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Headbutt 1HKOs Sneasel and puts Golbat in red. Both outspeeds but deals little back
Pink Bow Strength/Return is super close to 1HKOing Golbat
Faint Attack KOs Haunter after it uses Curse. Haunter outspeeds
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and can 2HKO Meganium while bypassing Reflect. Meganium outspeeds

Sweep seems possible barring hax
=Clair=
Ursaring L37-38 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Return 1HKOs the Dragonairs and 2HKOs Kingdra. All outspeeds and Kingdra almost 2HKOs back from full. Needs Pink Bow to reach 1HKOs on Dragonair

Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Kingdra and is close to 1HKOing the Dragonairs(guaranteed at Level 38)

Beats 3 Dragonairs at best
=Rival 5=
Ursaring L40-41 @ Bitter Berry / Pink Bow
Return 2HKOs Meganium(3HKOs after a Reflect) and the rest are 1HKOed by Return and Earthquake. All outspeeds bar Magneton.
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Meganium(3HKOs after a Reflect), 1HKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, and is close to 1HKOing Golbat. Needs Pink Bow to get a 3HKO on Meganium under Reflect

Can possibly sweep barring confuse hax
=Will=
Ursaring L40 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Return 1HKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Exeggutor, has a high roll to 1HKO both Xatus, and is close to 2HKOing Slowbro after a Curse. Jynx and both Xatus outspeeds, the Xatus 3HKOs back

Beats 3 or 4 at best with 1 heal barring confuse hax
Pink Bow Strength is close to 1HKOing the Xatus
=Koga=
Ursaring L40-41 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Muk and Crobat and 1HKOs Ariados and Venomoth. Only Crobat and Venomoth outspeeds
Fire Punch 1HKOs Forretress.
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Muk and Crobat, puts Ariados in red and is close to 1HKOing Venomoth

Can sweep without heal barring hax, but it needs Fire Punch to beat Forretress

=Bruno=
Ursaring L41 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Machamp, 1HKOs Lee and Chan and puts Top in red
Earthquake 2HKOs Onix
All outspeeds bar Machamp. Chan 3HKOs back, Machamp 1HKOs back, Lee finishes you off after taking damage from Top

=Karen=
Ursaring L41-42 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Umbreon, 1HKOs Murkrow and puts Vileplume in red. Umbreon speed ties
Earthquake 1HKOs Gengar and Houndoom

Ursaring barely lives, but a sweep could be possible without heal barring hax from Sand-Attack and Stun Spore para(Vileplume goes for Moonlight after a Stun Spore), otherwise its only beating 4 at best

Pink Bow Strength 1HKOs Murkrow, 2HKOs Vileplume and 3HKOs Umbreon(was put in red from 2 hits)

=Lance=
Ursaring L42 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Return 2HKOs Gyarados, L47 Dragonites, Charizard and is close to 2HKOing L50 Dragonite. All outspeeds, Charizard and L50 Dragonite 2HKOs back with their STAB, while the others 2HKOs back with Hyper Beam

Pink Bow Strength is close to 2HKOing L47 Dragonites

Beats 2 at best with 1 offscreen heal
I guess i can go for A Tier on this one. Catching it as Teddiursa can be annoying due to their 5% encounter only in the morning and had 50% flee rate, but you can alternatively catch an Ursaring post-Morty, and they can be obtained as high as level 30. I used Strength alongside Return on some matchups in case you decided to catch Ursaring instead without a Friend Ball, it seems its doing fine on its own even with just Strength (the Teddiursa i caught was female). Its a solid Normal-type, hits hard and its main problem is that its slow; its low speed made me feel a little bit of a B Tier, but otherwise it seems fine for A Tier

Nidoqueen
=Whitney=
Nidorina L21
Double Kick 2HKOs Clefairy and is close to 3HKOing Miltank. Nidorina can survive 3 Rollout, but Miltank outspeeds. very close to sweep, unless you get a lucky miss

As Nidoqueen
Double Kick 3HKOs Miltank and puts Clefairy in red. It reliably sweeps
=Rival 3=
Nidorina L22 @ Pink Bow
Mud-Slap 2HKOs Haunter after it uses Curse
Double Kick 2HKOs Magnemite
Pink Bow Headbutt 2HKOs Zubat and 5HKOs Bayleef without Reflect. Bayleef outspeeds
Beat 2 at best(Magnemite and Zubat. Needs 1 heal to beat Bayleef

As Nidoqueen
Charcoal Fire Punch puts Haunter in red after it uses Curse, 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Bayleef. Haunter still outspeeds
Ice Punch 1HKOs Zubat
Can possibly sweep
=Morty=
Nidorina L23 @ Mint Berry
The only move it has to touch Ghosts is a 20 BP Mud-Slap
Mud-Slap 3HKOs Gastly(close to 1HKOing after it uses Curse), 4HKOs Haunter(2HKOs after it uses Curse) and 6HKOs Gengar. All outspeeds
Bad

As Nidoqueen
Ice Punch 2HKOs Gastly(1HKOs after it uses Curse), 4HKOs Gengar, and is super close to 2HKOing both Haunters(close to 1HKOing L21 Haunter after it uses Curse). L21 Haunter speedties, Gengar and L23 Haunter outspeeds

Beats 2 at best
=Pryce=
Nidoqueen L31-32 @ Magnet
Magnet 2HKOs Seel and has a roll to 2HKO Dewgong. Dewgong outspeeds and 3HKOs back after getting hit by Seel's Icy Wind. Needs Magnet to get a 2HKO on the latter
Fire Punch has a roll to 2HKO Piloswine

Needs luck around Blizzard miss to sweep
=Chuck=
Nidoqueen L32 @ Mint Berry / Magnet
Headbutt is close to 2HKOing Primeape
Strength/Body Slam 2HKOs Primeape
Thunder Punch is close to 2HKOing Poliwrath(guaranteed with Magnet). Poliwrath 2HKOs back but sometimes goes for Hypnosis

Can possibly sweep
=Jasmine=
Nidoqueen L32 @ Charcoal
Charcoal Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Steelix. Steelix 3HKOs back. Clean sweep
=Rival 4=
Nidoqueen L34-35
Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and Haunter, and has a roll to 2HKO Meganium(guaranteed with Nevermeltice)
Fire Punch 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel
Sweep is possible barring hax. Golbat sometimes goes for Wing Attack turn 1
=Clair=
Nidoqueen L37
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Dragonairs and 5HKOs Kingdra. Surf/Ice Beam Dragonairs almost 2HKOs back, Kingdra outspeeds and almost 1HKOs Back

Beats 2 Dragonairs at best, it needs 1 heal to beat the 3rd one.
=Rival 5=
Nidoqueen L39-41 @ Bitter Berry
Earthquake 1HKOs Haunter, Magneton and Kadabra and puts Sneasel in red
Ice Punch 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium
Sweep without heal is possible barring confuse hax
=Will=
Nidoqueen L40 @ Soft Sand
Ice Punch 2HKOs the Xatus and Exeggutor.
Soft Sand Earthquake 1HKOs Jynx.
Thunderpunch 3HKOs Slowbro without Amnesia(was put in red in 2 hits)
All puts Nidoqueen in red, with Slowbro barely reaching it. Jynx and both Xatus outspeeds
Beats 1 at best(or 2 if you offscreen heal). Not good
=Koga=
Nidoqueen L40-41 @ Nevermeltice
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 2HKOs Crobat
Fire Punch 1HKOs Forretress
Earthquake 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and puts Muk in red. Venomoth outspeeds and can 2HKO back

Beats 4 at best. Could sweep here, but it requires luck around Venomoth going for Supersonic turn 1 and not getting hit by confusion
=Bruno=
Nidoqueen L41 @ Nevermeltice
Earthquake 3HKOs Machamp and 2HKOs the Hitmons. Machamp 4HKOs back
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 1HKOs Onix
Needs 1 heal to get a full sweep
=Karen=
Nidoqueen L41-42 @ Nevermeltice
Nevermeltice Ice Punch has a roll to 2HKO Vileplume and puts Murkrow in red
Earthquake 1HKOs Gengar, has a roll to 1HKO Houndoom and is close to 3HKOing Umbreon. Houndoom outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back
Beats 3 or 4 at best with 1 heal
=Lance=
Nidoqueen L42
Thunderpunch 2HKOs Gyarados and 3HKOs Charizard. Gyarados 2HKOs back but sometimes goes for Rain Dance, Charizard outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back
Nevermeltice Ice Punch 2HKOs the rest. They all outspeed bar Gyarados, L50 Dragonite 2HKOs back with Outrage, Blizzard Dragonite 2HKOs back.

Can beat 3(Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Thunder Dragonite) with 1 or 2 heal.
The Moon Stone is locked behind Tohjo Falls, which is only accessible after you beat Morty, and I actually didn't know that it is possible that you can get a Moon Stone around Whitney until hayateknight mentioned it, but you need to backtrack all the way to New Bark Town and deposit 15,000 Gold, which is a lot at that point of the game, and in order for the phone call to trigger, you need to fight trainers outside, it doesn't work inside the Gym or in the Underground. Okay, back to the nomination, if Nidoking is currently in the C Tier, then Nidoqueen should be in C Tier too. Those two are too similar to even try seperating them in this tier list; both are available in the same area at Route 35(GS) or National Park(C), had same encounter rate of 30%, and is obtainable at same level at Level 12, they also had same movepool in elemental punches and Headbutt(with the latter completely nullified their Scratch vs Horn Attack comparison) and typing, with the only difference being their stat distribution, which is minor. One of my issues to Nidos are their typing, which makes some matchup a mixed bag or shaky even if you have super-effective coverage against them, such examples are against Pryce, Chuck's Poliwrath, Clair's Surf/Ice Beam Dragonairs, Lance's Gyarados and Will.
=Pryce=
Gyarados L32 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Thrash 2HKOs Dewgong and has a roll to 2HKO Piloswine and 1HKO Seel
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Dewgong and is close to 2HKOing Piloswine and 1HKOing Seel. Piloswine 4HKOs back, Dewgong outspeeds after an Icy Wind, but does little back

It sweeps
=Chuck=
Gyarados L32 @ Pink Bow / Mint Berry
Pink Bow Thrash 1HKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath. Needs Pink Bow to get the range
Strength 3HKOs Poliwrath(2 hits puts it in red) and puts Primeape in red

It sweeps
=Jasmine=
Gyarados L32 @ MysticWater
MysticWater Surf puts Steelix in red and has a very low roll to 1HKO Magnemite. Magnemite 1HKOs back

Only beats Steelix
=Rival 4=
Gyarados L34 @ MysticWater
Strength 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel and 3HKOs Meganium without Reflect
MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Haunter

Beats 4 at best. Sweep is possible, but requires luck with Meganium not going for Reflect and Haunter not going for Curse
=Clair=
Gyarados L37 @ PRZCure Berry
Strength 2HKOs the Dragonairs and 3HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra almost 4HKOs back with Dragonbreath. At full, Gyarados survives a 2 Dragonbreath followed by Hyper Beam.

Can beat Kingdra and 1 Dragonair barring Dragonbreath para, you need 1 heal if you're going to beat Ice Beam Dragonair
=Rival 5=
Gyarados L39-40 @ PRZCure Berry
Strength 1HKOs Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Meganium without Reflect(a total of 5HKO if it does), and puts Sneasel in red
Surf 2HKOs Magneton and Haunter. Magneton seems to prefer going to Thunder Wave a lot turn 1

Might need 1 heal to sweep and some luck with confuse hax and Sneasel not going for Screech. PRZCure Berry is needed to beat Magneton
=Will=
Gyarados L40-41 @ Bitter Berry / Pink Bow
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Xatus, 3HKOs Exeggutor, 4HKOs Slowbro without Curse and is close to 1HKOing Jynx. All 3HKOs back, L42 Xatu outspeeds if you're Level 40
Pink Bow Thrash 1HKOs Jynx

Beats 3 at best, barring confuse hax, though you might need 1 heal
=Koga=
Gyarados L40 @ MysticWater
Strength 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 3HKO Crobat and Muk. Muk 3HKOs back
MysticWater Surf has a roll to 2HKO Forretress
Beats 4 barring hax, though you might need 1 heal
=Bruno=
Gyarados L40-41 @ Pink Bow / Bitter Berry
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Lee and Chan, 3HKOs Machamp and is close to 2HKOing Top. Chan 3HKOs back, Machamp 2HKOs back

Beats 4 at best without heal barring swagger hax
=Karen=
Gyarados L41 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Strength 2HKOs Murkrow and Houndoom, 3HKOs Vileplume, and is close to 3HKOing Umbreon. Houndoom outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Surf 2HKOs Gengar after a Curse.
Beats 3 at best with 1 heal barring hax
=Lance=
Gyarados L42 @ Pink Bow
Pink Bow Strength 3HKOs Gyarados, 4HKOs the Dragonites
Surf 2HKOs Charizard. Charizard outspeeds
Beats Gyarados and Charizard with 1 heal
I'm going for B Tier on this one. Relying on unSTAB Normal move a lot can suck, but its still doing fine even with just that and there's other good traits it could make up for. It completely skips the Magikarp phase, joins at a high level and will always have a guaranteed 14 atk DVs, and 10 on everything else bar HP. Its also a great HM Water Slave to slap in Waterfall and Whirlpool, since its only needing Strength and Surf on most matches.
=Chuck=
Seel L30 @ MysticWater
MysticWater Surf 2HKOs Primeape. Primeape outspeeds and after a Leer, it almost 2HKOs back
Poliwrath outspeeds and 2HKOs Seel without Leer from Primeape while it does little back with Headbutt(around 8-9HKO)

Only beats Primeape
=Jasmine=
Seel L32 @ PRZCure Berry / MysticWater
Surf 2HKOs Magnemite. Magnemite almost 1HKOs back, but it went for Thunder Wave turn 1 instead
Surf is close to 2HKOing Steelix after it goes Sunny Day turn 1. With Sunny Day up after it heals, Surf 4HKOs while Steelix 3HKOs back with Iron Tail. With MysticWater, Surf has a roll to put Steelix in potion range, though Surf is a 3HKO with sun up after it heals.

Only beats Steelix at best
=Rival 4=
Seel L34 @ MysticWater / PRZCure Berry
Surf 3HKOs Golbat, 2HKOs Haunter, puts Magnemite in red and is close to 2HKOing Sneasel. Magnemite 3HKOs back, Golbat outspeeds and 4HKOs back
Meganium outspeeds and 2HKOs Seel while it only 3HKOs back with Aurora Beam

Could only beat 2 or 3 at best

As L35 Dewgong
It outspeeds and 2HKOs Golbat and Meganium with Aurora Beam
MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Haunter(KOs after a Curse) and Sneasel

Beat 4 at best. A sweep seems a little bit possible with 1 heal barring hax
=Clair=
Dewgong L37 @ PRZCure Berry
Ice Beam 1HKOs the Dragonairs and 3HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back with Hyper Beam or almost 4HKOs back with Dragonbreath. Without Nevermeltice, 2 Ice Beams has a low chance of putting Kingdra in range of a Potion healing

Barring Smokescreen hax and Dragonbreath para, it sweeps
=Rival 5=
Dewgong L40-41 @ PRZCure Berry / Nevermeltice
Ice Beam 1HKOs Golbat and is close to 1HKOing Meganium, even with Nevermeltice. The rest are 2HKOed by Surf bar Kadabra, who was put in red. Sneasel, Golbat, Haunter and Kadabra outspeeds.
Sweep is possible without heal, but it requires PRZCure Berry for Magneton's TWave and luck around Haunter not going for Curse.

With Rain Dance, Surf 1HKOs Sneasel, Magneton, Haunter and Kadabra
Can sweep without heal barring hax
=Will=
Dewgong L40-41 @ Bitter Berry / Nevermeltice
Ice Beam 1HKOs the Xatus and is close to 1HKOing Exeggutor(guaranteed with Nevermeltice). The Xatus outspeeds and 3HKOs back
Surf 3HKOs Jynx. Jynx outspeeds and 3HKOs back, and can possibly go for Lovely Kiss
Take Down seems a 6HKO on Slowbro without Curse

Beats 3 at best barring confuse hax
=Koga=
Dewgong L40-41 @ MysticWater
MysticWater Surf 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth and Forretress and is super close to 3HKOing Muk. Venomoth outspeeds and seems to 5HKO back, Muk 3HKOs back
Ice Beam 2HKOs Crobat
With Rain Dance, Surf has a roll to 1HKO Ariados and 2HKO Muk and puts Venomoth and Forretress in red.

Could beat 4 barring hax, though it might need 1 heal
=Bruno=
Dewgong L41-42 @ MysticWater
MysticWaterSurf 3HKOs Machamp, 1HKOs Onix and is close to 2HKOing the Hitmons. Lee outspeeds and 2HKOs back, Chan 3HKOs back, Machamp 1HKOs back
With Rain Dance, MysticWater Surf 2HKOs the Hitmons and is close to 2HKOing Machamp

Beats Top and Onix. Not good
=Karen=
Dewgong L41 @ MysticWater
With Rain Dance, MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Houndoom, and 3HKOs Umbreon. Houndoom outspeeds
Ice Beam 1HKOs Murkrow and 2HKOs Vileplume. Vileplume 2HKOs back, but it sometimes goes for Stun Spore first, then followed by Moonlight, Murkrow outspeeds

Beats 3 or 4 without heal barring para hax. You need to set-up Rain Dance against Gengar. Dewgong barely lives a Curse + Murkrow's Faint Attack + Houndoom's Crunch with 16 hp left

=Lance=
Dewgong L42-43 @ Nevermeltice
Nevermeltice Ice Beam 3HKOs Gyarados, 1HKOs the Dragonites and puts Aerodactyl in red. All outspeeds, L50 Dragonite almost 2HKOs back with Outrage, Aerodactyl and Thunder Dragonite 2HKOs back, the latter likely goes for Thunder Wave turn 1 if you're at full. Blizzard Dragonite still goes for Blizzard if you're at full after a para.
Surf 2HKOs Charizard. Charizard outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back

Beats 3 Dragonites at best with 1 or 2 heal. If Thunder Dragonite came first and used Thunder Wave, you can beat all 3 of them without healing barring para hax. You need to heal if you're planning to beat Charizard too if it goes first before level 50 Dragonite; Dewgong still avoids a 2HKO from Flamethrower after a Blizzard.
Mixed between D and C on this one. The D Tier largely comes from its availability, you need to beat Pryce first in order to get it early, and it really misses out the free EXP that is Mahogany Team Rocket. While Seel evolves at Level 34, it is worth noting you should delay it until Level 37 for Ice Beam. There might be a possibility of a C Tier, but that would depend on how much you value Ice Beam on it, especially against Clair and Lance.
=Clair=
Suicune L41 @ PRZCure Berry
Aurora Beam 2HKOs the Dragonairs and 5HKOs Kingdra. Kingdra 5HKOs back with Dragonbreath
=Rival 5=
Suicune L41 @ Nevermeltice
Nevermeltice Aurora Beam is close to 2HKOing Meganium. Meganium 3HKOs back
With Rain Dance, Surf 1HKOs the rest bar Golbat, who is close to 1HKOing. Rain ends after you beat Meganium, Silver goes for Golbat next, in which you can set it up again. Golbat is more likely clicking Wing Attack

It barely lives, but it can sweep this without healing barring hax
=Will=
Suicune L41 @ Nevermeltice
Nevermeltice Aurora Beam 2HKOs Exeggutor and both Xatus
Surf 3HKOs Jynx
With Rain Dance, Surf 2HKOs Jynx and puts the Xatus in red. Jynx and both Xatus outspeeds; both Xatus 4HKOs back while the rest 3HKOs back

Beats 2 or 3 at best with 1 heal barring confuse hax
=Koga=
Suicune L41
Surf 2HKOs Ariados, Venomoth and Forretress, and is close to 3HKOing Muk. Muk 4HKOs back
Aurora Beam 3HKOs Crobat
With Rain Dance, Surf 2HKOs Venomoth, Forretress and Crobat and is close to 1HKOing Ariados and 2HKOing Muk
Beat 4 at best barring hax, though it might need 1 heal
=Bruno=
Suicune L41 @ MysticWater
With Rain Dance, MysticWater Surf 1HKOs Onix and 2HKOs the Hitmons and is super close to 2HKOing Machamp. Machamp almost 2HKOs back. Set-up Rain Dance on turn 2, it ends after attacking Lee, who is still in KO range from a normal Surf. Bruno goes from Top to Chan to Lee.
Beats 4 at best with no heal bar swagger hax.
=Karen=
Suicune L41 @ MysticWater
With Rain Dance, MysticWater Surf 3HKOs Umbreon, 2HKOs Gengar and 1HKOs Murkrow and Houndoom. Murkrow and Houndoom outspeeds
Aurora Beam 3HKOs Vileplume. Vileplume 2HKOs back
Beats 3 at best without heal. Needs to set-up Rain Dance against Gengar. Suicune barely lives a Curse + Murkrow's Faint Attack + Houndoom's Crunch with 30 hp left
=Lance=
Suicune L42-43 @ Nevermeltice
Surf 2HKOs Aerodactyl and Charizard.
Nevermeltice Aurora Beam 2HKOs the Dragonites. L50 Dragonite outspeeds and almost 2HKOs back

Can beat 3 or 4 with 1 heal (4 or 5 with 2 heal)
Honestly, i might want to go C Tier on this one, but i might be a little bit harsh on that. I really do like that it requires almost no investment to get going compared to Raikou and Entei, who might need to cash out an expensive GC TM, and that it joins at a high level, but my main problem to this mon is that its just a generic Water that joins late. I'm unsure about the GS one because its a roaming pokemon and it needs Icy Wind TM because Aurora Beam is Crystal-exclusive level-up move.
 
While I’ve never used it, C on Suicune sounds just fine to me. I mean sure, it’s a Suicune with good stats, but how much use are you gonna get out of it when pretty much all the remaining matchups bar Lance are neutral?

Yes, you can Master Ball it, yes it is level 40 or whatever. But it’s still going to mostly be a Surf beatstick (Aurora Beam is pretty niche outside of Lance), which, while fine, just isn’t that impressive when you really want super-effective hits for those last few opponents, especially when Suicune only has 90 Special Attack.
 
How are we ranking the Eeveelutions? From personal experience (and yes, I have logs), Vaporeon is really good. They have solid bulk, a lot of power, and natural Ice-type STAB. Rain Dance + Surf allows them to sweep with great force. Catch is that their speed kinda blows, though not Geodude-tier bad. You can obtain them, the Water Stone, and Surf all practically around the same time, so they are already kinda set from the word go. My previous nomination was an A, but I can see a B too, potentially.

Flareon and Jolteon are interesting - Flareon can (in my experience, no logs unfortunately) carry their weight off Normal-type STAB and Shadow Ball even before you obtain a Fire-type STAB, and you only really need Fire Blast before Jasmine and arguably Pryce. Their Attack stat is 130, which is superior to that of Gyarados (125) and equal to that of Machamp (130). Jolteon isn't so lucky due to a much lower Attack stat and also need not just Thunder but also Rain Dance to make things work on the STAB end. These TMs cost a lot of money and you are unlikely to get one before badge 7-8. I truthfully don't see at least Jolteon making it to B - C seems about right. Flareon may make it to B IMO, more testing required.

From a recent playthrough (no logs), I found Umbreon unironically more impressive than Espeon, though both are kinda weird. Both require a LOT of babying just to evolve, which translates to like a shit ton of money or time - for me, the Eevees evolved around L36-L37, which is also pretty much after badge 7. They essentially miss every important trainer before Clair! On the other hand, Eevee isn't total fodder and can carry their weight against mandatory Rockets, Pryce, and the like. Espeon IMO is worse in that even multiple vitamins later, they really lacked killing power at the Elite Four and were really frail against physical attacks. Koga of all people killed my Espeon, that bad. Umbreon also really lacks killing power, though at least they really wall Will relatively well and can contribute against Lance in a pinch. Neither is really good, neither belongs in B - the investment is ridiculous. C.
 
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How are we ranking the Eeveelutions? From personal experience (and yes, I have logs), Vaporeon is really good. They have solid bulk, a lot of power, and natural Ice-type STAB. Rain Dance + Surf allows them to sweep with great force. Catch is that their speed kinda blows, though not Geodude-tier bad. You can obtain them, the Water Stone, and Surf all practically around the same time, so they are already kinda set from the word go. My previous nomination was an A, but I can see a B too, potentially.

Flareon and Jolteon are interesting - Flareon can (in my experience, no logs unfortunately) carry their weight off Normal-type STAB and Shadow Ball even before you obtain a Fire-type STAB, and you only really need Fire Blast before Jasmine and arguably Pryce. Their Attack stat is 130, which is superior to that of Gyarados (125) and equal to that of Machamp (130). Jolteon isn't so lucky due to a much lower Attack stat and also need not just Thunder but also Rain Dance to make things work on the STAB end. These TMs cost a lot of money and you are unlikely to get one before badge 7-8. I truthfully don't see at least Jolteon making it to B - C seems about right. Flareon may make it to B IMO, more testing required.

From a recent playthrough (no logs), I found Umbreon unironically more impressive than Espeon, though both are kinda weird. Both require a LOT of babying just to evolve, which translates to like a shit ton of money or time - for me, the Eevees evolved around L36-L37, which is also pretty much after badge 7. They essentially miss every important trainer before Clair! On the other hand, Eevee isn't total fodder and can carry their weight against mandatory Rockets, Pryce, and the like. Espeon IMO is worse in that even multiple vitamins later, they really lacked killing power at the Elite Four and were really frail against physical attacks. Koga of all people killed my Espeon, that bad. Umbreon also really lacks killing power, though at least they really wall Will relatively well and can contribute against Lance in a pinch. Neither is really good, neither belongs in B - the investment is ridiculous. C.
For the sake of the list, all Eeveelutions will be assumed to be on Crystal, simply because of the DST Trick. GS ones would be D or lower.

Vapo is B/A is reasonable. It’s legit one of the best Waters in the game but A might be too much of a stretch. I’ll need to do a test to get my thoughts on such a placement.

Flareon is interesting. Shadow Ball is physical and you have unlimited Headbutt and later Return/Strength. You still have a useable Sp. Atk stat as well. Really just boils down to its MUs at this point. B might work but for now, we will have it sit in C until further testing.

Jolteon to C is reasonable.

Umbreon and Espeon won’t be anywhere higher than D. C is the most I can do and that would be for Espeon most likely. Umbreon simply isn’t good main game despite having really good defensive stats.The issue is it’s lack of offensive prowess.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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I'd rank the Eeveelutions the following:

Vaporeon - B. It's pretty much the best Eeveelution, since it's usable from the get-go and requires little investment for that. It does require some backtracks (mainly to DST trick a Water Stone and Rain Dance TM, though not sure if you really need it for Gym 5-7) and I don't particularly remember it performing well enough to warrant A-tier

Jolteon - I would rather say D-tier on this. Its only STAB move is Thunder, which is a GC TM. I don't remember it being particularly usable in the period I didn't have Thunder on that thing and you desperately need to backtrack for Rain Dance here just to make Thunder accurate. And there's the problem of you having to always set Rain Dance if you don't want to roll dice with Thunder's accuracy. Its later performance is somewhat acceptable (but not flawless), but this sounds like a huge investment to me

Flareon - C, It has some of Jolteon's issues with good STAB moves (or lack thereof), but unlike it, its usable even without Fire Blast thanks to its particularly good attack, allowing you to do some stuff with Headbutt and Shadow Ball.

Espeon - yeah, this one is an easy D-tier and good luck with getting an Espeon. Unless you decide to do some form of clock manipulation to get yourself infinite haircuts (I don't know of such methods myself, so would need to be enlightened here), you are unlikely to get Espeon before late into the game (idr when I got my Espeon and I am psure I had to hack it in because my Eevee wouldn't evolve at all). And even the end-game performance is somewhat meh (it's okay for most E4 members, but you aren't sweeping any of them without some assistance iirc), I don't see why you would ever want to use this over any other Psychic-type (bar meme options like Unown) that you have in this game

Umbreon - I will admit I have never used it in GSC, but I have used it in other games (including HGSS) and I can tell you there's almost nothing good about this no matter the game. It has the same issues as Espeon when it comes to happiness, but combine it with utterly mediocre offensive stats and almost unhelpful typing and you get one Pokemon that simply has too little usefulness to do much. Dark typing helps against Will, but you will be sitting there for a while with your glorious Bite coming off 60 Special Attack. I'd honestly place it in E-tier, especially since I don't remember Eevee by itself doing much in major fights either when I used Espeon
 
Unless you decide to do some form of clock manipulation to get yourself infinite haircuts (I don't know of such methods myself, so would need to be enlightened here)
You need to access the hidden menu with your secret code that is obtained by current money and trainer ID. There is a site for it. So you’d have to use a new code everytime you would want a haircut. If you are on VC, I think you just change the 3DS internal but you may still need to access the secret menu.
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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Time manipulation for haircuts is not something I would recommend, but as an alternative, you can also raise Eevee's happiness by using X Items on it. In GSC, each X Item used raises happiness by 1 for as long as the Pokemon's happiness is below 200, and it's pretty easy to fish up a Magikarp with the Old Rod and spam X Items while it Splashes. The Item doesn't even have to raise the stat successfully, so it can be used on a 6+ mon and the X Item still be consumed and happiness will increase accordingly. I did another one of my experiments way back when to see how early you could get Espeon/Umbreon using this strategy and was able to evolve Eevee at level 25 (here).

As I said back then, I think going all out like that isn't really optimal because it involves spending time making no progress, and to be perfectly honest.....Espeon and Umbreon aren't even that drastic of an improvement over Eevee during that part of the game, at least not in terms of power, because Eevee does more damage with Normal moves than either Espeon or Umbreon can due to the STAB boost, and Normal moves are going to form the main part of its offense at that point. Meanwhile, Espeon doesn't really receive a massive power boost until Bite (meh) and Psybeam, and Umbreon is probably on par with Eevee damage-wise even after it gets STAB given that Eevee has stronger STAB options plus a badge boost from Whitney's gym! So I don't think you'd even WANT to evolve it immediately (I recognise that power isn't the whole story though - Espeon gains a huge speed boost and Umbreon has the bulk). Still, I think throwing some X Items on it initially to give itself a bit of a head-start is a reasonable option given how simple it is to set up, just to ensure that it evolves at a suitable time. This matters more for Espeon because it wants to evolve in time for Psybeam, but also likes to delay its evolution for a bit to learn Bite as an Eevee for coverage (30-36 is the sweetspot). Umbreon can just evolve whenever and actually doesn't even need to delay evolving for Bite if it has access to Shadow Ball (it does basically the same damage as Bite/Faint Attack because of the badge boost from Morty's gym and the coverage is virtually identical).

Unevolved Eevee is unfortunately mostly limited in usefulness to killing route fodder which can make it feel like a waste of a team slot, but it's actually not awful for that given it has strong STAB options, and it also comes at a good level to limit the experience grind, which in turn limits the blow of the X Item happiness grind should you wish to go down that route. Espeon is sucky before the late game and is arguably worse than Eevee during this time in some respects, but it's helpful against the Elite 4 due to its Psychic/Dark coverage. Thus, "dealing" with Eevee could be seen as an ok trade-off, since it's reasonable enough to grind Eevee during Johto without having to baby it THAT much and then have it evolve in time for Espeon to beat the Poison, Fighting and Psychic-types used by the Elite 4. Umbreon is the worse of the two and there isn't really a legitimate niche for it if you compare it to Espeon. It's good as heal fodder and I guess there would be match-ups where it would be more likely to win than Espeon but overall Espeon's contributions are going to be more impactful when Eevee is ready to evolve and the choice has to be made.

If I were considering their placements in relation to how all the other Pokemon perform, I view Espeon as a mid tier and Umbreon as a low (not bottom) tier, but based on the tier descriptions in the OP, Espeon D and Umbreon E is probably a reasonable fit. I think Espeon would probably fit the current D-tier description of being "average" (good for Elite 4, less good in match-ups prior to that but ok for route fodder during that time, seems to even out as "average") and Umbreon the E-tier description of "low". Putting Umbreon in the lowest tier seems harsh to me since I think there are many Pokemon that will likely end up there that are MUCH worse than it, but it's reasonable to expect the tiers to contain a variety of Pokemon that themselves differ in overall "efficiency" (sub-tiers if you will) ESPECIALLY in the lower tiers, and I don't think differentiating between bad Pokemon and very bad Pokemon is that important.
 
Sorry for the double post, but can someone suggest some Pokemon to test? I am already considering testing one of the Eeveelutions (not Vaporeon).

Also, here are my Vaporeon logs. Note that I did use some Vitamins later in the game (badge 5-6+ mark), but nothing crazy.

Vaporeon (L23, Ecruteak Rival): Surf GG. Everyone - that's right, everyone - gets one-shotted by Surf (or at least 81.3% of the time for a full HP Haunter). The only issue is if you get paralyzed by Lick, but a held Przcureberry allows you to cleanly sweep their team. I didn't even need the Przcureberry on 2/3 tries. Quilava's Smokescreen spam can also be annoying, though not a major threat (it wasn't to me). Easy A.

Vaporeon (L25, Morty): Reliably outpace Gastly and OHKO through Surf. Haunter reliably outpaces you but also gets OHKOed by Surf. Gengar outpaces you but can't even 3HKO you through Dream Eater or Shadow Ball (barring a crit). In return, Gengar reliably gets 2HKOed through Surf. That being said, being put to sleep multiple times is a possibility. A held Mint Berry and a Super Potion sufficed for me on try 1 and 3 (Vaporeon tanked Dream Eater long enough to break out of sleep and fire back against Gengar who put me to sleep after Haunter 1 did the same to me; I needed the Super Potion because my HP had been dangerously low by the time I did break out of sleep) and on try 2 only got put to sleep once. A held Mint Berry and a couple of Awakenings should suffice you, all in all. I had an Awakening in my bag but didn't need (or use it). Solid A-Tier match.

Vaporeon (L31, Chuck): A Rain-boosted Surf reliably OHKOes Primeape, who outpaces but can't even bring you below the green with a Leer + non-crit Karate Chop. Reliably outpace Poliwrath and reliably 3HKO with Rain Surf. Dynamicpunch reliably 3HKO you in return. A-Tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L31, Pryce): Set up a Guard Spec to avoid having your speed lowered by Icy Wind. Bite reliably 3HKOes Seel (whom you outpace) - in return, Icy Wind and Headbutt do very, very, very little damage. Bite is not good against Dewgong, though. Fortunately, Rain + Surf reliably 2HKOes Seel and reliably 3HKOes Dewgong, whom you outpace too. Piloswine gets reliably OHKOed and outpaced (too). Easy S-Tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L33, Jasmine): Vaporeon reliably outpaced and OHKOed everyone through Surf. No Rain needed. S-tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L34, Goldenrod Rival): Rain Surf OHKOs Golbat, although he outpaces you and can confuse you - he can't do much back to you in return with Wing Attack. Outpace Magnemite and OHKO Magnemite. Haunter outpaces and gets OHKOed. Got to L35 after that. Ditto for Sneasel. Quilava gets OHKOed cleanly even after rain stops. A-tier matchup, Golbat is the only annoyance and/or threat.

Vaporeon (L39, Clair): Vaporeon reliably outpaces Dragonair and two-shots with Aurora Beam (decent chance at one-shotting with Nevermeltice at least). Even a crit Thunderbolt can only 2HKO at best. Aurora Beam reliably 4HKOs Kingdra and Hyper Beam cannot even 2HKO you - Kingdra does outpace you, though. The Hyper Beam charge turns can be exploited given it's really her only way to not do absolutely little damage to you here, albeit you might want some healing support to deal with it better. A-tier, only lower because paralysis + Smokescreen shenanigans can get in the way.

Vaporeon (L42-43, Victory Road Rival): Apart from Screech (and even with), Sneasel is a total joke and Rain Dance setup fodder. Surf OHKOs everyone under the rain, though everyone outpaces you apart from Magneton thankfully. Haunter and Golbat can be annoying with their respective shenanigans but are OHKOed and Confusion isn't that annoying to Vaporeon anyway given their stat distribution (not very good Attack or Defense but solid HP). Surf OHKOs Kadabra even without rain as they set up Future Sight - ditto for Typhlosion. A-tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L42-43, Will): Although Xatu outspeeds, he only 4HKOes with Psychic and you reliably 2HKO in return through Surf (no Rain Dance needed). Xatu 2 no different. You reliably outpace Exeggutor and 2HKO with Bite, Psychic only 4HKOing at best. Jynx also fails to 3HKO and gets 2HKOed by Surf. You usually 3HKO Slowbro even if he uses Amnesia, possibly 2HKO without. Overall an A-tier matchup - you only need healing due to being slow and getting worn down and possible status b-but....you nuke Will.

Vaporeon (L43, Koga): Rain Dance Surf reliably OHKOs everyone but Muk and Crobat, both of who are 2HKOed. You outpace everyone but Crobat and Venomoth - set up Rain Dance against Ariados. Might need some healing depending on Minimize/Double Team/Protect/status shenanigans. B-tier.

Vaporeon (L43, Bruno): Outpace Hitmontop and 2HKO with Surf. Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee outpace but get 2HKOed too. You will very likely need to heal once Hitmonlee or Machamp appears. Machamp can 2HKO with Cross Chop and live even a Rain-boosted Surf, however - not a safe matchup. Onix is fodder. B-tier matchup - needs healing and support with Machamp but otherwise can solo.

Vaporeon (L43-44, Karen): Rain Dance Surf reliably 2HKOs Umbreon - use Guard Spec immediately, again. Outpace Umbreon and Vileplume. Ouptace and 2HKO with Aurora Beam. Surf reliably 2HKOs Gengar outside rain (rain ended at this point for me) - watch out for paralysis. Aurora Beam and Surf both OHKO Murkrow. Surf 2HKOs (can OHKO outright) Houndoom outside rain and you can live both Crunch and Faint Attack fairly comfortably if they don't crit or you are at or near full HP. A-tier matchup, might need some healing but otherwise good to go.

Vaporeon (L43-45, Lance): Aurora Beam is a 5HKO on Gyarados - you can exploit the cooldown turns from Hyper Beam (a 3HKO) to heal or attack (depending on your HP and Gyarados's). He also tends to use Surf on you for some reason, making it even easier. Dragonite 1 outpaces and 2HKOs with Thunder (might 3HKO too though) - don't engage him unless you're ready to fish for Thunder misses and risk a crit OHKO on you. Aurora Beam reliably 2HKOs each Dragonite. Hyper Beam from D-Nite 1 and 2 3HKOes or 2HKOes you - utilize the recharge turns for healing. D-Nite 3 reliably 2HKOs you with Hyper Beam at any rate - heal during recharge turns, while Outrage seems to be a 3HKO at best. Aerodactyl 3HKOs you with Hyper Beam and gets OHKOed by Surf. Charizard is a total joke and gets OHKOed by Surf. Overall a very solid matchup, though a crit Hyper Beam can be really bad and Thunder D-Nite may require aid. A-tier matchup.

I feel one could make a case for Chuck, Clair, Morty, Karen, and Will being B-tier. I stand by the rest.
 
Sorry for the double post, but can someone suggest some Pokemon to test? I am already considering testing one of the Eeveelutions (not Vaporeon).

Also, here are my Vaporeon logs. Note that I did use some Vitamins later in the game (badge 5-6+ mark), but nothing crazy.

Vaporeon (L23, Ecruteak Rival): Surf GG. Everyone - that's right, everyone - gets one-shotted by Surf (or at least 81.3% of the time for a full HP Haunter). The only issue is if you get paralyzed by Lick, but a held Przcureberry allows you to cleanly sweep their team. I didn't even need the Przcureberry on 2/3 tries. Quilava's Smokescreen spam can also be annoying, though not a major threat (it wasn't to me). Easy A.

Vaporeon (L25, Morty): Reliably outpace Gastly and OHKO through Surf. Haunter reliably outpaces you but also gets OHKOed by Surf. Gengar outpaces you but can't even 3HKO you through Dream Eater or Shadow Ball (barring a crit). In return, Gengar reliably gets 2HKOed through Surf. That being said, being put to sleep multiple times is a possibility. A held Mint Berry and a Super Potion sufficed for me on try 1 and 3 (Vaporeon tanked Dream Eater long enough to break out of sleep and fire back against Gengar who put me to sleep after Haunter 1 did the same to me; I needed the Super Potion because my HP had been dangerously low by the time I did break out of sleep) and on try 2 only got put to sleep once. A held Mint Berry and a couple of Awakenings should suffice you, all in all. I had an Awakening in my bag but didn't need (or use it). Solid A-Tier match.

Vaporeon (L31, Chuck): A Rain-boosted Surf reliably OHKOes Primeape, who outpaces but can't even bring you below the green with a Leer + non-crit Karate Chop. Reliably outpace Poliwrath and reliably 3HKO with Rain Surf. Dynamicpunch reliably 3HKO you in return. A-Tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L31, Pryce): Set up a Guard Spec to avoid having your speed lowered by Icy Wind. Bite reliably 3HKOes Seel (whom you outpace) - in return, Icy Wind and Headbutt do very, very, very little damage. Bite is not good against Dewgong, though. Fortunately, Rain + Surf reliably 2HKOes Seel and reliably 3HKOes Dewgong, whom you outpace too. Piloswine gets reliably OHKOed and outpaced (too). Easy S-Tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L33, Jasmine): Vaporeon reliably outpaced and OHKOed everyone through Surf. No Rain needed. S-tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L34, Goldenrod Rival): Rain Surf OHKOs Golbat, although he outpaces you and can confuse you - he can't do much back to you in return with Wing Attack. Outpace Magnemite and OHKO Magnemite. Haunter outpaces and gets OHKOed. Got to L35 after that. Ditto for Sneasel. Quilava gets OHKOed cleanly even after rain stops. A-tier matchup, Golbat is the only annoyance and/or threat.

Vaporeon (L39, Clair): Vaporeon reliably outpaces Dragonair and two-shots with Aurora Beam (decent chance at one-shotting with Nevermeltice at least). Even a crit Thunderbolt can only 2HKO at best. Aurora Beam reliably 4HKOs Kingdra and Hyper Beam cannot even 2HKO you - Kingdra does outpace you, though. The Hyper Beam charge turns can be exploited given it's really her only way to not do absolutely little damage to you here, albeit you might want some healing support to deal with it better. A-tier, only lower because paralysis + Smokescreen shenanigans can get in the way.

Vaporeon (L42-43, Victory Road Rival): Apart from Screech (and even with), Sneasel is a total joke and Rain Dance setup fodder. Surf OHKOs everyone under the rain, though everyone outpaces you apart from Magneton thankfully. Haunter and Golbat can be annoying with their respective shenanigans but are OHKOed and Confusion isn't that annoying to Vaporeon anyway given their stat distribution (not very good Attack or Defense but solid HP). Surf OHKOs Kadabra even without rain as they set up Future Sight - ditto for Typhlosion. A-tier matchup.

Vaporeon (L42-43, Will): Although Xatu outspeeds, he only 4HKOes with Psychic and you reliably 2HKO in return through Surf (no Rain Dance needed). Xatu 2 no different. You reliably outpace Exeggutor and 2HKO with Bite, Psychic only 4HKOing at best. Jynx also fails to 3HKO and gets 2HKOed by Surf. You usually 3HKO Slowbro even if he uses Amnesia, possibly 2HKO without. Overall an A-tier matchup - you only need healing due to being slow and getting worn down and possible status b-but....you nuke Will.

Vaporeon (L43, Koga): Rain Dance Surf reliably OHKOs everyone but Muk and Crobat, both of who are 2HKOed. You outpace everyone but Crobat and Venomoth - set up Rain Dance against Ariados. Might need some healing depending on Minimize/Double Team/Protect/status shenanigans. B-tier.

Vaporeon (L43, Bruno): Outpace Hitmontop and 2HKO with Surf. Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee outpace but get 2HKOed too. You will very likely need to heal once Hitmonlee or Machamp appears. Machamp can 2HKO with Cross Chop and live even a Rain-boosted Surf, however - not a safe matchup. Onix is fodder. B-tier matchup - needs healing and support with Machamp but otherwise can solo.

Vaporeon (L43-44, Karen): Rain Dance Surf reliably 2HKOs Umbreon - use Guard Spec immediately, again. Outpace Umbreon and Vileplume. Ouptace and 2HKO with Aurora Beam. Surf reliably 2HKOs Gengar outside rain (rain ended at this point for me) - watch out for paralysis. Aurora Beam and Surf both OHKO Murkrow. Surf 2HKOs (can OHKO outright) Houndoom outside rain and you can live both Crunch and Faint Attack fairly comfortably if they don't crit or you are at or near full HP. A-tier matchup, might need some healing but otherwise good to go.

Vaporeon (L43-45, Lance): Aurora Beam is a 5HKO on Gyarados - you can exploit the cooldown turns from Hyper Beam (a 3HKO) to heal or attack (depending on your HP and Gyarados's). He also tends to use Surf on you for some reason, making it even easier. Dragonite 1 outpaces and 2HKOs with Thunder (might 3HKO too though) - don't engage him unless you're ready to fish for Thunder misses and risk a crit OHKO on you. Aurora Beam reliably 2HKOs each Dragonite. Hyper Beam from D-Nite 1 and 2 3HKOes or 2HKOes you - utilize the recharge turns for healing. D-Nite 3 reliably 2HKOs you with Hyper Beam at any rate - heal during recharge turns, while Outrage seems to be a 3HKO at best. Aerodactyl 3HKOs you with Hyper Beam and gets OHKOed by Surf. Charizard is a total joke and gets OHKOed by Surf. Overall a very solid matchup, though a crit Hyper Beam can be really bad and Thunder D-Nite may require aid. A-tier matchup.

I feel one could make a case for Chuck, Clair, Morty, Karen, and Will being B-tier. I stand by the rest.
Once I get a running track of things, I can. I'm busy getting HGSS off to GP right now. Once that is done, I will sit down and get everything back in order here for this list.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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Sorry for the double post, but can someone suggest some Pokemon to test? I am already considering testing one of the Eeveelutions (not Vaporeon).
Girafarig would probably be good, if only to see if someone isn't on the fence between B and A-tier

(also, fyi, double posting is generally acceptable if your next post is different enough that simply editing it wouldn't be suitable)
 
So it seems that the descriptions of tiers, the expectations for number of pokemon and what constitutes 'casual efficiency' have changed quite a bit in the last few years, and I don't have quite as many complaints there.

For the sake of posterity, I'd like to note that Cyndaquil's weakspot in a run to E4 (Red/16Badges is more relevant IMO, but however I understand the challenge for ranking purposes) can be casually covered almost completely and trivially by grabbing the shiny immediately after Morty and the two have ludicrously good combined matchups during the entire section that people complain about Quilava.

Again given the rules on leveling/stopping at E4... I'm not necessarily advocating for a different rank for it, but it is a simple strat that goes woefully underappreciated for those interested in not blindly picking totodile as used to be quite common.

I wouldn't mind copying over some details for the Wooper/Poliwag (particularly in crystal) discussions we had in 2018 under the Colonel M thread.
 
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So it seems that the descriptions of tiers, the expectations for number of pokemon and what constitutes 'casual efficiency' have changed quite a bit in the last few years, and I don't have quite as many complaints there.

For the sake of posterity, I'd like to note that Cyndaquil's weakspot in a run to E4 (Red/16Badges is more relevant IMO, but however I understand the challenge for ranking purposes) can be casually covered almost completely and trivially by grabbing the shiny immediately after Morty and the two have ludicrously good combined matchups during the entire section that people complain about Quilava.

Again given the rules on leveling/stopping at E4... I'm not necessarily advocating for a different rank for it, but it is a simple strat that goes woefully underappreciated for those interested in not blindly picking totodile as used to be quite common.

I wouldn't mind copying over some details for the Wooper/Poliwag (particularly in crystal) discussions we had in 2018 under the Colonel M thread.
Not to be that guy or anything, but we don’t decide rankings based on how well things form a “core” with each other to cover for weaknesses, like mons tend to do in competitive. It’s speaking to the effectiveness of Gyarados in more than it speaks to the effectiveness of Quilava.

I know you said Cyndaquil’s tier / rank won’t change, making this kinda a moot point. Stuff like this makes for good team building strats but undermines individual strengths and weaknesses of each Pokemon.

I appreciate your post regardless!
 
Not to be that guy or anything, but we don’t decide rankings based on how well things form a “core” with each other to cover for weaknesses, like mons tend to do in competitive. It’s speaking to the effectiveness of Gyarados in more than it speaks to the effectiveness of Quilava.

I know you said Cyndaquil’s tier / rank won’t change, making this kinda a moot point. Stuff like this makes for good team building strats but undermines individual strengths and weaknesses of each Pokemon.

I appreciate your post regardless!
I think I would strongly disagree that such considerations are 'undermining individual strengths and weaknesses'. It is evaluating the consequences of individual strengths and weakness and to what level are those mitigatable. End of the day, it is a large sequence break for most players and regardless it's use, being meh/not good for a good chunk of 3 gyms is too much (if we stop at Lance), so I wouldn't really say it deserves better than B.

But if a specific pokemon has a very bad section of the game that can/is mitigated by actions the player is pushed to during the plot (I would say have to, but I recognize you don't *have* to catch the shiny), that means something very different than needing to say... grind out a backtracked pokemon or having to use finite resources in high demand (ala the 'good tms')
 
I think I would strongly disagree that such considerations are 'undermining individual strengths and weaknesses'. It is evaluating the consequences of individual strengths and weakness and to what level are those mitigatable. End of the day, it is a large sequence break for most players and regardless it's use, being meh/not good for a good chunk of 3 gyms is too much (if we stop at Lance), so I wouldn't really say it deserves better than B.

But if a specific pokemon has a very bad section of the game that can/is mitigated by actions the player is pushed to during the plot (I would say have to, but I recognize you don't *have* to catch the shiny), that means something very different than needing to say... grind out a backtracked pokemon or having to use finite resources in high demand (ala the 'good tms')
So if I am understanding this correctly (and do please correct me if I am wrong here), are you saying that due to Red Gyara existing, it mitigates the issues that Cyndaquil has as Red Gyara is forced upon the player (only if Gyaradoes was caught)?

If this is indeed the case, each Pokemon is tested on its own individual merits in this list. Other Pokemon that help it are, in fact, a detriment to its ranking as it was no longer an individual effort. This could be said the same with items but those have a limit more or less placed on them via common sense (Once you hit 3 Items, it becomes very unlikely that the MU in question is labeled "good")
 
So if I am understanding this correctly (and do please correct me if I am wrong here), are you saying that due to Red Gyara existing, it mitigates the issues that Cyndaquil has as Red Gyara is forced upon the player (only if Gyaradoes was caught)?

If this is indeed the case, each Pokemon is tested on its own individual merits in this list. Other Pokemon that help it are, in fact, a detriment to its ranking as it was no longer an individual effort. This could be said the same with items but those have a limit more or less placed on them via common sense (Once you hit 3 Items, it becomes very unlikely that the MU in question is labeled "good")
The separation from items/HMs/TMs/leveling from catching/receiving other pokemon is a false dichotomy. All represent various forms of mitigation.

HMs are the least impactful mitigating factor (to the extent of being almost trivial unless a sequence break is required for their effective use, and thankfully in GSC that isn't the case) because the plot demands their acceptance by the player, and use on one pokemon does not generally represent an opportunity cost to the same pokemon or another (the closest thing to a detriment would be using flash/cut on a pokemon that is movepool rich before getting to the deleter, but that is not really a serious thing on almost any practical case, and represents a misplay by the trainer anyways)

We have talked to death over the years the TM opportunity cost situation and how much it matters. But for example: Abra is good if and only if you buy/use punch tms. Those tms are not expensive, not out of the way, (low opportunity cost) but without them abra is just meh. Likewise leveling and availability.

When it comes to using other pokemon the metric is quite the same. How much does it cost the player in effort/opportunity to obtain, is additional investment needed etc? In effect, every single pokemon other than the starter is partially impacted by this metric already. Abra not being available for the first two gyms is a detriment, but unless one picks chikorita and doesn't grab anything else to help along the way, the common argument is already that that part of the game is sufficiently easy/trivial that it can still be S tier despite missing out on what is 4 major battles (if you exclude sprout, slowpoke well, and think it will contribute to whitney). *Which for the record, I am 100% okay with. I am not trying to say Abra isn't S-tier, just using it as an example*

Recognizing then that a static pokemon that is forcefully encountered as part of the plot of the game would be the next closest thing to an automatic addition, that is a relatively low opportunity cost in and of itself. Then the question becomes how much investment may be involved in using that resource (pokemon in this case). Well in the hypothetical of the weak spot for Quilava in particular, the parts of Jasmine and Chuck that it struggles with (note that is technically only two major battles with the leveling rules we have laid out), the static Gyarados requires *literally 0 investment* (though HMs make it work faster). No leveling, no TMs, nothing. I cannot emphasize enough that dynamic as to why this makes the particular situation different from most other 'partner pokemon'. One only needs to catch it and go. The major penalty is that it does indeed represent a sequence break to do. Not a challenging one, but opportunity cost indeed, and we semi-arbitrarily state that these major battles are harder than the ones that others miss out on, so we assign a larger penalty to the pokemon for missing out on them.

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To circle around to your comment, this would be true of any pokemon that has a singular problem period in the run that is mitigated by static-plot required pokemon. Of course, when you look at others near the top of the list, it just so happens that very few of them gain anything from the Gyarados. Spearow/Kenya is slightly aided in Crystal by the availability of Suicune, but Gyarados/Spearow/Suicune/Totodile struggle with mostly the same pokemon (when applicable), so they don't really gain the same way that cyndaquil does, as well as offering much more general overlap in offensive coverage with each other.

Abra doesn't gain offensively, but there are some very specific threats that it quite enjoys having either static around for their bulk.

I haven't used Magmar much, but thinking about it, Steelix is annoying though the 20-40 window is Magmar's most disproportionately powerful phase in general (so likely not much help).

I'm not sure if geodude gains much from Gyarados existing... [I am fully willing to look into all of the mons here]

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The base assumption is a team of 4 anyways. It is not as if this bends the rules or changes anything whatsoever.


EDIT: tidied up some verbiage
 
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Can someone explain why Gyarados is (or at least was in the previous thread) ranked higher than Quagsire, Slowbro, Tentacruel, and Lapras? Despite having high physical attack, Gyarados usually does less damage with return than all 4 of these other Pokemon do with their STAB attacks. I get that the level 30 appearance makes Gyarados great against the next 3 gyms, but how does it remain useful in the late game?
 

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