Base stats weren't changed in this romhack though gym leaders were changed a bit. That's something I can figure on my own since I won't be going too in depth. I will probably do the starters and several often used pokemon.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V
- Thread starter Turdterra
- Start date
Base stats weren't changed in this romhack though gym leaders were changed a bit. That's something I can figure on my own since I won't be going too in depth. I will probably do the starters and several often used pokemon.
This thread is under my ownership and has its own way of dealing with mons. While appreciate the enthusiasm, I would like you to refrain.
This isn't about that. There is no need to feel threatened over a public forum. Your way of dealing with mons is what I like. It is a free discussion that everyone is having. I am discussing with them and then using that free information in other things if they agree. I don't have to include yours if you don't want, though speaking to other people in here has nothing to do with you.
I think you misunderstand. This doesn’t belong in this thread. You can make a separate one if the mods allows so doing the way you wish to do it. But for here, that’s a lot of unnecessary work that doesn’t need to be done in this thread at all.
Last edited:
Regardless or not, this is for GSC, not any rom hack that uses GSC as a base and shouldn’t have even been mentioned. Please keep any and all conversations relevant to the actual game we are tiering. I have no issue if you want to test a mon, but if you choose to do it here, you must abide by the guidelines and rules listed in the OP. As stated prior, if you want to do whatever you’ve talked about, inquire with a mod if the the thread doesn’t exist. (This is now officially off topic)
Either today or tomorrow, Cyndaquil will be placed in either C or B tier provided with my logs and in depth analysis of every vote that has been made to give a fair and accurate tiering for it.
Apologies for the double post. I decided to refrain from making any comments about tiering until I was done with my test.
The point being made here is that if you do it to Typh, you can do it to anyone. It's not efficient either as the casual person is just going to use ones that are found on the ground. 9,800 is a pretty big chunk of change honestly at any give point in the game. It's not recommended you do this at all either. It creates a grossly overpowered mon in the end. Besides, Zam gets by fine without that. Just use the freebies. Also GC TMs are very ill advised seeing as they are such a huge investment and you generally do not get them until Pryce if you play casually and do not spend your money willy nilly.
Moving onto the test that involves Cynda now.
Did a little VR Grind here to get everyone at the bare minimum of 40.
So, let's get the big one out of the way here. Cyndaquil. I counted all noms that had logs. If they did not have a log, they were not accounted for. Due to Cynda being one of the most controversial Pokemon, I had to take into account logs only. Any logs that had any suspect claims were also discounted (there were none. This was the in depth analysis) As a result, talllies were made and it is at a Tie. 2 As, 4 Bs. and 4 Cs. Cynda is moving to C Tier. As for the reasonings, those have been plenty explained enough as is. TM Hog, underwhelming performances (Even the MUs people said were good were in fact, not.), and just an abysmal time just waiting for it to do little.
While yes, the performance shown in the League resembles a B Tier, I am not testing an individual part of the mon but the entirety of its life. Unfortunately, as it has been shown as many others, the midgame is atrocious and that weighs fairly heavy enough for it to carry over. Even as you get it by Clair, she craps on it, leaving the League to really dictate where it will go. If Typh maybe at least swept on League Member, I would not mind it being in B, but that didn't happen after many tests.
Fire Blast was not used due to cost and its unreliability. The end game throws way too much Hax at you to be unreliable. Sunny Day was not used either simply because you can get Paralyzed/Confused or just never hit (Koga/Karen). EQ was not used as it would replace Dig which was shown to not really improve much anyways (Houndoom on Karen would still kill you as it outspeeds and Curse would finish you off.) It was better off to be given to Golem anyways since it would have relied on Magnitude.
Smokscreen and Berries for Whitney are not required, that's just extra effort to make a bad mon look good. Yes, it can sweep. Doesn't mean the mon is good after that as I showed (having to wait 2 major MUs outweighs Whitney)
Cyndaquil is now blacklisted from discussion and will remain in C Tier. Any further talks on Quil will be ignored by me. I'm over this thing derailing threads and causing them to close.
Pidgey will be put in C Tier.
Miltank was tested 2 ways. Friend Ball and Non. The preferred way it Non. You lose Morty if you do FB which is not advised as that is a VERY good MU for Miltank to have under it's belt. PB Strength was just good enough to get by in most scenarios anyway. But later on, PB Return just picks up kills like crazy. Miltank is heading A/B Tier with a lean on A.
Golem is a huge letdown and will will be nommed for C Tier. It effectively does very little post Whitney and is just killed by almost everything.
The point being made here is that if you do it to Typh, you can do it to anyone. It's not efficient either as the casual person is just going to use ones that are found on the ground. 9,800 is a pretty big chunk of change honestly at any give point in the game. It's not recommended you do this at all either. It creates a grossly overpowered mon in the end. Besides, Zam gets by fine without that. Just use the freebies. Also GC TMs are very ill advised seeing as they are such a huge investment and you generally do not get them until Pryce if you play casually and do not spend your money willy nilly.
Moving onto the test that involves Cynda now.
Pidgey (17): Gust 2HKOs the cocoons and 3HKOs Scyther. They don't threaten you. Amazing MU
Geodude (15): Rock Throw 2HKOs the cocoons and OHKOs Scyther. Amazing MU
Quilava (16): Ember is a OHKO on the cocoons and a 3HKO on Scyther. Amazing MU.
Rival (Azalea)
Pidgeotto (18): Gust 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat, 4HKOs Croc. Good MU
Quilava (16): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat. Hard L to Croc.
Geodude (16): Magnitude 5 and up OHKOs Gastly. Rock Throw OHKOs Zubat. Hard L to Croc.
Geodude (15): Rock Throw 2HKOs the cocoons and OHKOs Scyther. Amazing MU
Quilava (16): Ember is a OHKO on the cocoons and a 3HKO on Scyther. Amazing MU.
Rival (Azalea)
Pidgeotto (18): Gust 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat, 4HKOs Croc. Good MU
Quilava (16): Ember 2HKOs Gastly and Zubat. Hard L to Croc.
Geodude (16): Magnitude 5 and up OHKOs Gastly. Rock Throw OHKOs Zubat. Hard L to Croc.
Quilava (21): Tested both Rollout and Fury Cutter. Rollout is the vastly safer option as Rollout 3 takes out Clefairy having Miltank take a 4 and 5 for the W. Fury Cutter is more dependent on Clefairy not hitting you with a bunch of Doubleslaps. If you fall to about half HP (basically the upper range of Green bar), Rollout 2HKOs off Miltank. Neither test relied on the inefficient Smokescreen strat. Nor did it require outside Berry help.
Rollout swept twice, and Fury Cutter once in a total of 6 tests.
Geodude (21): DCurl + Rollout equals an incredibly easy win. Granted you have a chance to miss but Whitney does absolutely nothing to threaten you.
Pidgeotto (21): Return is a 2HKO on Clefairy and about a 6HKO on Miltank. Miltank 3HKOs with Rollout.
Rollout swept twice, and Fury Cutter once in a total of 6 tests.
Geodude (21): DCurl + Rollout equals an incredibly easy win. Granted you have a chance to miss but Whitney does absolutely nothing to threaten you.
Pidgeotto (21): Return is a 2HKO on Clefairy and about a 6HKO on Miltank. Miltank 3HKOs with Rollout.
Miltank (19-21)): DCurl + Rollout sweep Morty. Mint Berry is a must to ensure you are not interrupted on Haunter 1. Gastly 1 is an OHKO, Haunter 1 is a 2HKO, and the rest are all OHKO. Amazing MU
Otto (22-(23)): No matter what you do, Otto fails here. Mint Berry and Beak were both tested. Without Beak, Otto fails to 2HKO Haunter 1 (It also fails to OHKO Gastly). Gengar is a 4HKO with Beak but you won't see this due to Curse damage.
Golem (25): DCurl + Rollout is the way to go. Due to Golem's low speed, you are kinda stuck between using PRZCure or Mint. Use Mint. You are already slow but Sleep is far worse in this scenario due to need to land Rollouts. Everything is an OHKO from this. Dig was tested but there was no sweep. You fall to Curse Damage on Haunter 2.
Quilava (22 - 23): Using Dig is your only method of dealing with Morty. Interesting thing happened when testing. Morty can counterplay your Dig strat by Mimicing it and shooting that strat in the foot as Haunter is slower than Lava here. It doesn't happen all the time as he did it in another test but didn't click Dig. You also cannot jebait the Mimic with Leer or anything as he will Curse instead. Lava takes out 2/4 in a MU that everyone says is favorable. It is not. Meh MU.
Otto (22-(23)): No matter what you do, Otto fails here. Mint Berry and Beak were both tested. Without Beak, Otto fails to 2HKO Haunter 1 (It also fails to OHKO Gastly). Gengar is a 4HKO with Beak but you won't see this due to Curse damage.
Golem (25): DCurl + Rollout is the way to go. Due to Golem's low speed, you are kinda stuck between using PRZCure or Mint. Use Mint. You are already slow but Sleep is far worse in this scenario due to need to land Rollouts. Everything is an OHKO from this. Dig was tested but there was no sweep. You fall to Curse Damage on Haunter 2.
Quilava (22 - 23): Using Dig is your only method of dealing with Morty. Interesting thing happened when testing. Morty can counterplay your Dig strat by Mimicing it and shooting that strat in the foot as Haunter is slower than Lava here. It doesn't happen all the time as he did it in another test but didn't click Dig. You also cannot jebait the Mimic with Leer or anything as he will Curse instead. Lava takes out 2/4 in a MU that everyone says is favorable. It is not. Meh MU.
Otto (29): You could use Mint Berry but you need Beak to sweep here if that is your goal. Beak makes Gust a 2HKO on Ape who tends to Leer more than anything. Wrath is a 3HKO range (4HKO) with Gust so it's better to do 2 Gusts and a Return (you outspeed everyone too). Honestly speaking, Otto's last good MU.
Miltank (24): Pretty much loses here but you do have a chance to sweep if Wrath misses DPunch but any Mind Reader will end this. Return with Pink Bow is a 2HKO on Ape and a 4HKO on Wrath. This is Friend Ball Miltank too so bear that in mind, meaning PB Strength will do far less in terms of damage and effectively make this MU non winnable potentially. PB Strength still 2HKOs Ape but it looks like a range. Wrath is still a 4HKO but the damage is far less of course.
Golem (26): You take out Ape with a 2HKO Dig, Wrath clicks Surf and you just gargle on the saltwater derived from your tears as you watch your sentient rock sink.
Lava (27): You don't even get through Primeape.....B tier amiright?
Miltank (24): Pretty much loses here but you do have a chance to sweep if Wrath misses DPunch but any Mind Reader will end this. Return with Pink Bow is a 2HKO on Ape and a 4HKO on Wrath. This is Friend Ball Miltank too so bear that in mind, meaning PB Strength will do far less in terms of damage and effectively make this MU non winnable potentially. PB Strength still 2HKOs Ape but it looks like a range. Wrath is still a 4HKO but the damage is far less of course.
Golem (26): You take out Ape with a 2HKO Dig, Wrath clicks Surf and you just gargle on the saltwater derived from your tears as you watch your sentient rock sink.
Lava (27): You don't even get through Primeape.....B tier amiright?
Lava (31) w/Charcoal: Flame Wheel OHKOs both Mags and 2HKOs Steelix. It is important to note that Flame Wheel is 100% required to pull this off as Ember will leave the Mags alive for them to kill you.
Golem (26): Dig OHKOs the Mags, but you do nothing to Steelix who OHKOs with Iron Tail.
Otto (29): Leedle. Mud-Slap is a 2HKO on Mags who just OHKOs with TBolt. It's more than 10HKO on Steelix
Miltank (25): Effectively does nothing here as well. Mud Slap hits less than Otto's and Surf deals the exact same damage.
Golem (26): Dig OHKOs the Mags, but you do nothing to Steelix who OHKOs with Iron Tail.
Otto (29): Leedle. Mud-Slap is a 2HKO on Mags who just OHKOs with TBolt. It's more than 10HKO on Steelix
Miltank (25): Effectively does nothing here as well. Mud Slap hits less than Otto's and Surf deals the exact same damage.
Quilava (34) w/ Charcoal: Return is a 2HKO on Seel and a 4HKO on Dewgong. Flame Wheel is a 4HKO on Swine due to Hyper Potion. Legit does not threaten you.
Golem (30) w/Pink Bow: Fails to Sweep as it is walled by Pilo due to Icy Wind speed drop. You are able to take 1 Blizzard however Rollout 3 is not enough to take it out. DCurl + Rollout also doesn't work because Seel hits you with an Icy Wind and an Aurora Beam which makes Blizzard one shot you instead. Bad MU.
Miltank (28): w/Pink Bow: Finally redeeming itself. Return is an OHKO on Seel, a 2HKO on Dewgong, and a 2HKO on Piloswine. They do nothing to threaten you either.
Otto (29): Tested with PB and SB. Both are a loss to Dewgong. You 2HKO Seel and 3HKO Dewgong (Return). Fly is a 2HKO on Seel and about a 5HKO on Dewgong. Never saw Pilo but I assume about the same ranges.
Golem (30) w/Pink Bow: Fails to Sweep as it is walled by Pilo due to Icy Wind speed drop. You are able to take 1 Blizzard however Rollout 3 is not enough to take it out. DCurl + Rollout also doesn't work because Seel hits you with an Icy Wind and an Aurora Beam which makes Blizzard one shot you instead. Bad MU.
Miltank (28): w/Pink Bow: Finally redeeming itself. Return is an OHKO on Seel, a 2HKO on Dewgong, and a 2HKO on Piloswine. They do nothing to threaten you either.
Otto (29): Tested with PB and SB. Both are a loss to Dewgong. You 2HKO Seel and 3HKO Dewgong (Return). Fly is a 2HKO on Seel and about a 5HKO on Dewgong. Never saw Pilo but I assume about the same ranges.
Otto (32): Golbat is a 3HKO with Return with no PB (2HKO with) and a 2HKO on Magnemite with Mud Slap, Fly is a 2HKO on Haunter, Return is a 2HKO on Sneasel. You cannot kill Gatr in time. Basically Otto does not sweep as Golbat walls you with Confuse Ray (which btw, Pink Bow boosts confusion damage by 20%). Pack a PRZCureBerry for Mags as it like to Twave.
Miltank (30 - 31): Pack PRZCure for the TWave. Return 2HKOs Golbat. Fire Punch 2HKOs Mags. You need to start Rollout on Haunter as it will Curse to kill itself while you are on Rollout 2. Rollout 3 OHKOs Sneasel and the remaining beat Gatr. Good MU.
Golem (33): Stopped by Gatr. DCurl + Rollout OHKOs Golbat, Haunter, Sneasel, and a Dig beats Mags (you can use Magnitude as well).
Lava (35): Charcoal Flame Wheel 3HKOs Golbat, OHKOs Mags and Sneasel and Dig 2HKOs Haunter (Flame Wheel is a 2HKO as well but you take some damage if you opt this way while you simply take a Curse on the way back up)
Typh (36): TPunch 2HKOs Golbat and Gatr (ranges around 3HKO surprisingly). Flame Wheel OHKOs everything barring Haunter who is left with a smidge of HP.
Miltank (30 - 31): Pack PRZCure for the TWave. Return 2HKOs Golbat. Fire Punch 2HKOs Mags. You need to start Rollout on Haunter as it will Curse to kill itself while you are on Rollout 2. Rollout 3 OHKOs Sneasel and the remaining beat Gatr. Good MU.
Golem (33): Stopped by Gatr. DCurl + Rollout OHKOs Golbat, Haunter, Sneasel, and a Dig beats Mags (you can use Magnitude as well).
Lava (35): Charcoal Flame Wheel 3HKOs Golbat, OHKOs Mags and Sneasel and Dig 2HKOs Haunter (Flame Wheel is a 2HKO as well but you take some damage if you opt this way while you simply take a Curse on the way back up)
Typh (36): TPunch 2HKOs Golbat and Gatr (ranges around 3HKO surprisingly). Flame Wheel OHKOs everything barring Haunter who is left with a smidge of HP.
Miltank (35): Sweeps albeit shaky. Use PRZCureBerry for the TWave on Nair 1. You want her to open with Surf as that limits her TWaves. Curlout take 3 Rollouts to take out Nair 1, 4 and 5 OHKO the other Nairs (You outspeed all of them) and Kingdra is a slugfest with Return/Strength. Smokescreen is annoying but out of 6 tests I got 3 sweeps so 50/50 on a sweep. Pretty darn good.
Golem (35): Surf OHKOs you. Don't even try.
Typh (37): Surf 3HKOs you and you don't even threaten a Nair remotely.
Pidgeot (36): You take out 2 Nairs due to Twave limiting you. PRZCure is used early one on Nair 1. Return is a 2HKO on all Nairs. Kingdra is about a 4HKO. Does better than Typh
Golem (35): Surf OHKOs you. Don't even try.
Typh (37): Surf 3HKOs you and you don't even threaten a Nair remotely.
Pidgeot (36): You take out 2 Nairs due to Twave limiting you. PRZCure is used early one on Nair 1. Return is a 2HKO on all Nairs. Kingdra is about a 4HKO. Does better than Typh
Miltank (38): Sweeps with Curlout. By the time you finish off Curlout, 4 of his members are down. Sneasel is a 2HKO, Golbat, Magneton, and Haunter are all OHKOs. Return is an OHKO on Kadabra and a 3HKO on Gatr. Takes out 6/6 mons.
Golem (37): You 2HKO Sneasel with Curlout before losing to Gatr and a Water move. Curlout 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs everything esle after. Takes out 5/6 Mons
Pidgeot (37-38): Return with PB ranges on an OHKO to 2HKO on Sneasel. Mud-Slap is a 3HKO on Magneton (You lose this fight as well). Fly is an "OHKO" on Haunter (It offs itself with Curse). Return is a 3HKO on Gatr, OHKO on Kadabra, and a 2HKO on Golbat. Takes out 5/6 Mons.
Typhlosion (39-41 (Ends at level 41)): Charcoal Fire Punch is an OHKO on Haunter, Magneton, and Sneasel, 2HKO on Kadabra. Thunder Punch is a 2HKO on Gatr and Golbat. Takes out 6/6 mons
Golem (37): You 2HKO Sneasel with Curlout before losing to Gatr and a Water move. Curlout 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs everything esle after. Takes out 5/6 Mons
Pidgeot (37-38): Return with PB ranges on an OHKO to 2HKO on Sneasel. Mud-Slap is a 3HKO on Magneton (You lose this fight as well). Fly is an "OHKO" on Haunter (It offs itself with Curse). Return is a 3HKO on Gatr, OHKO on Kadabra, and a 2HKO on Golbat. Takes out 5/6 Mons.
Typhlosion (39-41 (Ends at level 41)): Charcoal Fire Punch is an OHKO on Haunter, Magneton, and Sneasel, 2HKO on Kadabra. Thunder Punch is a 2HKO on Gatr and Golbat. Takes out 6/6 mons
Did a little VR Grind here to get everyone at the bare minimum of 40.
Miltank (40-41): Return sweeps Will but you might want to put on a Bitter Berry for Confuse Ray. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu, an OHKO on Jynx, 2HKO on Eggexutor, and a 3HKO on Slowbro. None of them really threaten you as you outspeed but Confuse Ray can cause an L. 6/6 are taken out.
Pidgeot (40-41): Bitter Berry is a must. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu and an OHKO on Jynx. 3-4HKO on Slowbro (all it does is use Amnesia) and Fly is a 2HKO on Eggs. 6/6 taken out.
Golem (40-41): Just don't bother with this. You can take out Slowbro barely and that is about it. Eggs walls you if you aren't using Curlout and everything outspeeds you. Horrendous MU.
Typhlosion (41-42): You cannot sweep. I tested 4 times. Tpunch is a 2HKO on Xatus and a 3HKO on Slowbro. You take too much damage from Xatu 1 and Slowbro. Fire Punch boosted with Charcoal OHKOs Jynx (It is a range without) and OHKOs Eggs. Magnet Tpunch does not matter here as the HKOs are the same without it.
Pidgeot (40-41): Bitter Berry is a must. Return is a 2HKO on all Xatu and an OHKO on Jynx. 3-4HKO on Slowbro (all it does is use Amnesia) and Fly is a 2HKO on Eggs. 6/6 taken out.
Golem (40-41): Just don't bother with this. You can take out Slowbro barely and that is about it. Eggs walls you if you aren't using Curlout and everything outspeeds you. Horrendous MU.
Typhlosion (41-42): You cannot sweep. I tested 4 times. Tpunch is a 2HKO on Xatus and a 3HKO on Slowbro. You take too much damage from Xatu 1 and Slowbro. Fire Punch boosted with Charcoal OHKOs Jynx (It is a range without) and OHKOs Eggs. Magnet Tpunch does not matter here as the HKOs are the same without it.
Miltank (40-41): PB Return 2HKOs everything barring Forretress which is instead 2HKO'd by Fire Punch.
Golem (41-42): EQ is a 2HKO on Ariados, an OHKO on Muk, a 3HKO on Forretress. Rollout is a 3HKO on Crobat and an OHKO on Venomoth due to it being Rollout 4. Not a good MU due to Double Team but no mon can easily sweep Koga anyways due to hax.
Pidgeot (40-41): Fly is an OHKO on Ariados. PB Return is a 2HKO on Muk, Crobat, and Venomoth (Fly is a 1-2HKO). You do nothing to Forretress due to it using Protect on your Fly.
Typholosion (42-43): Does not sweep due to Muk. Fire Punch is an OHKO on Ariados, Forretress, and Venomoth with no Charcoal. Crobat is a 2HKO with Magnet Thunder Punch.
Golem (41-42): EQ is a 2HKO on Ariados, an OHKO on Muk, a 3HKO on Forretress. Rollout is a 3HKO on Crobat and an OHKO on Venomoth due to it being Rollout 4. Not a good MU due to Double Team but no mon can easily sweep Koga anyways due to hax.
Pidgeot (40-41): Fly is an OHKO on Ariados. PB Return is a 2HKO on Muk, Crobat, and Venomoth (Fly is a 1-2HKO). You do nothing to Forretress due to it using Protect on your Fly.
Typholosion (42-43): Does not sweep due to Muk. Fire Punch is an OHKO on Ariados, Forretress, and Venomoth with no Charcoal. Crobat is a 2HKO with Magnet Thunder Punch.
Miltank (41): PB Return 2HKOs Top (You should prob DCurl on Top's Dig Turn), OHKOs Lee and 2HKOs Chan. 3-4HKOs Champ but one Cross Chop OHKOs you. You do nothing to Onix unless you invested EQ into Miltank.
Pidgeot (40-41): Return (Non PB) is a 2HKO on Top. It will Protect on Fly turns. Fly with Sharp Beak is an OHKO on Lee and Chan. 2HKO on Champ. Be wary of Rock Slide, seems to be a range. You do nothing to Onix.
Golem (40-41): EQ is an OHKO on Top due to Dig doubling EQ's Power. EQ is a 2HKO on Lee and Chan. 3HKO on Champ. 2HKO on Onix. You don't get past Lee often which is his second mon.
Typh (43-44): You cannot Sweep at all. Charcoal Fire Punch is a 2HKO on Top, Chan, and Lee while a 3-6KO on Machamp (Due to Potion but I never saw it as I can't break past Champ before it kills me). Champ 2HKOs you with Cross Chop. Onix is not threatened by you at all.
Pidgeot (40-41): Return (Non PB) is a 2HKO on Top. It will Protect on Fly turns. Fly with Sharp Beak is an OHKO on Lee and Chan. 2HKO on Champ. Be wary of Rock Slide, seems to be a range. You do nothing to Onix.
Golem (40-41): EQ is an OHKO on Top due to Dig doubling EQ's Power. EQ is a 2HKO on Lee and Chan. 3HKO on Champ. 2HKO on Onix. You don't get past Lee often which is his second mon.
Typh (43-44): You cannot Sweep at all. Charcoal Fire Punch is a 2HKO on Top, Chan, and Lee while a 3-6KO on Machamp (Due to Potion but I never saw it as I can't break past Champ before it kills me). Champ 2HKOs you with Cross Chop. Onix is not threatened by you at all.
Typhlosion (44): You 4HKO Umbreon with Charcoal Fire Punch. You take Sand Attacks. You whiff moves. Gengar is a 2HKO with Dig but it is advised you do Fire Punch as it will be KO's from using Curse as well. (If you Dig, she does not use Curse right away). FIre Punch OHKOs Vileplume and Thunder Punch OHKOs Murkrow. Dig is a 3HKO on Doom, but if you invest EQ it is a 2HKO. Regardless, you do not sweep due to Curse Damage, Sand Attacks, and Doom chucking HP.
Miltank (42): PRZCureberry is used due to Plume. Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon (PB does NOT decrease this range), a 2HKO on Doom, Plume, and Murkrow. Gengar is OHKO's by EQ, though you do not outspeed Gengar so the sweep is very unlikely due to Curse.
Pidgept (42): PB Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon. 2HKO on Doom and Murkrow. Fly is a OHKO on Gengar due to Curse and a 2HKO on Plume. You don't sweep but take out 4/5 mons before Doom kills you.
Golem: (42): EQ is a 3HKO on Umbreon. You do nothing to Vileplume as it OHKOs you. Murkrow is a 2HKO on Rollout but Doom kills you due to damage. Gengar is OHKO'd by EQ.
Miltank (42): PRZCureberry is used due to Plume. Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon (PB does NOT decrease this range), a 2HKO on Doom, Plume, and Murkrow. Gengar is OHKO's by EQ, though you do not outspeed Gengar so the sweep is very unlikely due to Curse.
Pidgept (42): PB Return is a 3HKO on Umbreon. 2HKO on Doom and Murkrow. Fly is a OHKO on Gengar due to Curse and a 2HKO on Plume. You don't sweep but take out 4/5 mons before Doom kills you.
Golem: (42): EQ is a 3HKO on Umbreon. You do nothing to Vileplume as it OHKOs you. Murkrow is a 2HKO on Rollout but Doom kills you due to damage. Gengar is OHKO'd by EQ.
Typh: (44): TPunch with Magnet is a range on Gyarados but most often not it is an OHKO. Zard is a 2HKO as is Aero but Aero 2HKOs with Rock Slide and you don't outspeed. You do very little to the Nites.
Miltank (43): Sweeps Lance albeit not a guarantee. Curlout 2HKOs Gyarados while Rollout 3,4,5 take out Nite 1, 2, and Aero respectively. Aero does outspeed causing the sweep to fail but if it misses, you win. Zard is 2HKO'd while Nite 3 is OHKOed. While not a clear sweep, the potential goes far. Even if you don't sweep, you take out 4 of his 6 mons.
Golem (42): Takes out Aero and Zard with Rollout and that is it. Nite (Blizzard) OHKOs you.
Pidgeot (42): PB Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Zard. You lose to Nite (Thunder) and Nite (Blizzard). You do nothing to Nites and Aero.
Miltank (43): Sweeps Lance albeit not a guarantee. Curlout 2HKOs Gyarados while Rollout 3,4,5 take out Nite 1, 2, and Aero respectively. Aero does outspeed causing the sweep to fail but if it misses, you win. Zard is 2HKO'd while Nite 3 is OHKOed. While not a clear sweep, the potential goes far. Even if you don't sweep, you take out 4 of his 6 mons.
Golem (42): Takes out Aero and Zard with Rollout and that is it. Nite (Blizzard) OHKOs you.
Pidgeot (42): PB Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Zard. You lose to Nite (Thunder) and Nite (Blizzard). You do nothing to Nites and Aero.
So, let's get the big one out of the way here. Cyndaquil. I counted all noms that had logs. If they did not have a log, they were not accounted for. Due to Cynda being one of the most controversial Pokemon, I had to take into account logs only. Any logs that had any suspect claims were also discounted (there were none. This was the in depth analysis) As a result, talllies were made and it is at a Tie. 2 As, 4 Bs. and 4 Cs. Cynda is moving to C Tier. As for the reasonings, those have been plenty explained enough as is. TM Hog, underwhelming performances (Even the MUs people said were good were in fact, not.), and just an abysmal time just waiting for it to do little.
While yes, the performance shown in the League resembles a B Tier, I am not testing an individual part of the mon but the entirety of its life. Unfortunately, as it has been shown as many others, the midgame is atrocious and that weighs fairly heavy enough for it to carry over. Even as you get it by Clair, she craps on it, leaving the League to really dictate where it will go. If Typh maybe at least swept on League Member, I would not mind it being in B, but that didn't happen after many tests.
Fire Blast was not used due to cost and its unreliability. The end game throws way too much Hax at you to be unreliable. Sunny Day was not used either simply because you can get Paralyzed/Confused or just never hit (Koga/Karen). EQ was not used as it would replace Dig which was shown to not really improve much anyways (Houndoom on Karen would still kill you as it outspeeds and Curse would finish you off.) It was better off to be given to Golem anyways since it would have relied on Magnitude.
Smokscreen and Berries for Whitney are not required, that's just extra effort to make a bad mon look good. Yes, it can sweep. Doesn't mean the mon is good after that as I showed (having to wait 2 major MUs outweighs Whitney)
Cyndaquil is now blacklisted from discussion and will remain in C Tier. Any further talks on Quil will be ignored by me. I'm over this thing derailing threads and causing them to close.
Pidgey will be put in C Tier.
Miltank was tested 2 ways. Friend Ball and Non. The preferred way it Non. You lose Morty if you do FB which is not advised as that is a VERY good MU for Miltank to have under it's belt. PB Strength was just good enough to get by in most scenarios anyway. But later on, PB Return just picks up kills like crazy. Miltank is heading A/B Tier with a lean on A.
Golem is a huge letdown and will will be nommed for C Tier. It effectively does very little post Whitney and is just killed by almost everything.
Last edited:
Have you already tried spearow as a replacement for pidgey? For me Fearow was better in the late game compared to Pidgeot.
I didn't test Fearow. When you test, you don't replace a mon for a better option. You test the mon until the end of the test. Only in extreme circumstances may a Mon be dropped but not replaced. Besides, Spearow is objectively better than Pidgey. It's not even a competition between the two.
You mean when you test that's not how you do it. That's not exactly how I do it either. I don't know what you mean about contest. I never said anything about that. There are many ways to test. I level every possible pokemon that can be caught in the early stages and test them with save states or if possible redoing every gym leader if they have re-challenge enabled.
I have no idea what you are trying to argue then. In Game Tier List threads work in a way your testing is not feasible. The OP has a number of mons allowed for testing that is optimal and efficient and has guidelines on who is tested.
I’m pretty sure I said what I meant. We don’t replace a mon because a superior option exists. We test the Mon we picked to completion, from when we get it to the very end of the test.
When you use the word “compared” it becomes a type of contest of sorts. Pidgeot is very much inferior to Fearow in every sense.
I wasn't trying to argue. I think you are taking offense to my comments when there wasn't any offense meant to be made. I shared an observation and I expected a response that wasn't at all like what you gave.
I thought either "yes I experienced the same or no I had a different experience." In that case I would have wanted to know what moveset and conditions you chose that made Pidgeot Superior. Tier lists are made to place which mons are better than others. The only way to do that with any certainty is to try many different configurations which involves changing mons around, correct?
The way I test still does each mon to completion, however the way they perform at different stages of the game are important to the overall performance rating IMO.
For instance a Mon could perform exceptionally to the completion of the game, yet be inferior overall once they reach level 80 or above which is post game.
Another is that they perform mediocre until very late game and post end game. That still deserves consideration for overall tier. If it is an in game tier list then post game strength values a bit less than the strength during the bulk of the game.
Mons are placed based on their ability in all situations and configurations overall in its ability to complete the game. If you don't try them all then how can anybody be sure?
I think that might be because it's not exactly clear what point you are trying to make. If you support or do not support Pidgey to C, it might be better to explain clearly why you agree/do not agree with the decision
I am not sure if this is a mistake or something, but I am fairly sure he says Pidgeot is inferior to Fearow, not the opposite.
Yes, this is how stuff is generally tiered. If a Pokemon is good only in specific parts of the game, it obviously will drop slightly in ranking, though this depends on circumstances as well (for example, Gastly (Gengar) is a bit of a pain to use early on, but its overwhelmingly good performance after evolving into Gengar offsets this, for most parts; obviously, it still counts against it, just not that much due to the results you get later on)
I hope I am misunderstanding, but how it performs in the post-game (or how good it is at level 80, which idk what that would mean anyways) is of no relevance for the purposes of this list; the goal of the list is to say how good a particular Pokemon for completing the main game--that is, the moment you get your starter up until you defeat Lance for the first time. Whether it's good at level 80 (which is entirely unrealistic for the purposes of an efficient run) or no does not influence its ranking and neither does its performance in the post-game (or, in this scenario, Kanto).
If you think Pidgey (or any particular Pokemon) wasn't used "correctly", you might wanna be specific as to how it'd have been better used. It is important to keep in mind that some "configurations" are just outright inefficient and therefore probably wouldn't be considered (e.g. RNGing a perfect IVs Pokemon and overleveling it by 20 levels)
Probably best to take it here.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/in-game-tier-list-policy-discussion-thread.3616692/
The "how it is better used" is what I expected from the players who have been doing this for years instead of "this isn't a contest" in a thread specifically aimed at comparing them against each other.
The part you are misunderstanding. you basically rewrote everything I said in a few sentences. The main game part is where things get blurry. For some it is simply seeing the end credits. For others it is completing the dex. I have different tiers based on original and romhacks. I am omitting romhacks here, though they will factor into my other tier lists as getting some of the legendary pokemon are harder in terms of the encounters along the way than seeing the end credits.
I also never said Pidgey was used incorrectly. I was giving an instance that could occur, though it did not. I have my experiences, though you all have been doingthis for years so I expected that you would have more in depth knowledge. "This isn't a contest" isn't exactly that though.
fuck it I'll get involved cause man I'm curious. let's go to the source
Simple question, hopefully warrants a simple answer:
Are you suggesting that Fearow should be used during a test of Pidgey? If so, why?
Simple question, hopefully warrants a simple answer:
Are you suggesting that Fearow should be used during a test of Pidgey? If so, why?
Why exactly is Scyther in C? Bro can nearly cleave through the E4 by setting up Swords Dance and Agility, then breaking faces with Return. You could even get SD before Clair with a bit of grinding (L42). I agree it comes a little too late to fully be dominant, but B at least makes more sense IMO.
Have to frankly laugh at the idea of a certain starter being in C. It feels like my tests and those of many others were completely invalidated or ignored, and the fact people even went as far as denying them TMs they had little competition for (Fury Cutter and Fire Blast) is a major bruh moment. Ironically, I was willing to accept B myself, but C is just criminal. 4 Bs and 4 Cs, on their own, would lead to a B/C average for Cyndaquil; the fact you also had 2 As would bring the average back to B. In other words, the grading reasoning didn't even make any sense. The idea of Golem being in C is also similarly silly, given their great earlygame performance and continued (if fairly lower) usefulness in the mid to lategame. They beat the first 4 gyms, can beat Jasmine with Defense Curl setup, pretty much laugh at Team Rocket and much of the team of your Rival (particularly if they picked Cyndaquil), and take out 3 of Lance's Pokemon. B at least.
I concede C is a better rank for Chikorita; having used her a number of times, I can attest to the fact she just lacks the power and/or movepool to truly be effective. Grass is a bad defensive (and offensive) typing in Johto, playing defense and support is kinda inefficient, and Chiko really lacks moves like Sleep Powder or Leech Seed that could have really helped. Not so sure about A for Totodile, have to test that, but I can see it too.
I also would like to test Good Rod Gyarados (yes, I mean Good Rod Gyarados, caught as a L20 Magikarp and ready to evolve with just a bit of training). Seems like a pretty interesting Mon if weird in terms of stat distribution. Their bulk, insane Attack, and decent coverage should compensate for their poor Special Attack and sparse physical movepool to a degree, but the question is to what degree.
Have to frankly laugh at the idea of a certain starter being in C. It feels like my tests and those of many others were completely invalidated or ignored, and the fact people even went as far as denying them TMs they had little competition for (Fury Cutter and Fire Blast) is a major bruh moment. Ironically, I was willing to accept B myself, but C is just criminal. 4 Bs and 4 Cs, on their own, would lead to a B/C average for Cyndaquil; the fact you also had 2 As would bring the average back to B. In other words, the grading reasoning didn't even make any sense. The idea of Golem being in C is also similarly silly, given their great earlygame performance and continued (if fairly lower) usefulness in the mid to lategame. They beat the first 4 gyms, can beat Jasmine with Defense Curl setup, pretty much laugh at Team Rocket and much of the team of your Rival (particularly if they picked Cyndaquil), and take out 3 of Lance's Pokemon. B at least.
I concede C is a better rank for Chikorita; having used her a number of times, I can attest to the fact she just lacks the power and/or movepool to truly be effective. Grass is a bad defensive (and offensive) typing in Johto, playing defense and support is kinda inefficient, and Chiko really lacks moves like Sleep Powder or Leech Seed that could have really helped. Not so sure about A for Totodile, have to test that, but I can see it too.
I also would like to test Good Rod Gyarados (yes, I mean Good Rod Gyarados, caught as a L20 Magikarp and ready to evolve with just a bit of training). Seems like a pretty interesting Mon if weird in terms of stat distribution. Their bulk, insane Attack, and decent coverage should compensate for their poor Special Attack and sparse physical movepool to a degree, but the question is to what degree.
Last edited:
Golem was worded poorly on my part. That's just a nom to C for it. It's been edited to reflect this.
Scyther is in C due to availability, getting it on a specific day which is 5%, lasts 20 minutes, etc. There are times I have been unable to even find one in 20 minutes. Also 42 at Clair is unfeasible and should not be even remotely attempted. That's League levels. The average level for Clair is around mid to high 30s (36 to 38 generally).
I see.
Doesn't seem that bad, though? Resetting time isn't that inconvenient and you have three days in a week to get him so it's even less of a problem.
I've made it to L40 multiple times at that point with pretty much my entire team at that level (maybe some just under; think L39). My logs attest to it. No wild grinding, just fighting mostly every NPC I could find. I don't think that's too unreasonable at that point in the game, but agree to disagree. At least, it deserves consideration. If you have a spare Rare Candy or two, as allowed by the OP, it can be even easier (but not mandatory or necessary).
Scyther isn't efficient if I have to reset to get him. While I haven't personally tested him in recent time, I plan to do a test involving him, Pinsir, Sentret, and Jynx.
While you can make it to 40 multiple times, it also boils down to party comp and their XP Groups (This plays quite a big factor in a game that is very stingy on it's XP). While it is possible to get to 40. 42 is asking a lot there at the least. For most, 38 is pretty much the height you are gonna be at for Clair, barely hitting 39 for the most part. 40 I would expect about the VR Rival.
Completed a run with Sentret, Slowpoke, Tentacruel (caught as Cruel) and Jynx.
Onto the rankings!
Furret was a weird beast. I highly recommend you read the logs for this one. It's so bizarre to me, because statwise, Furret really isn't anything special, like, look at those stats.
And yet...Furret has an honest-to-goodness chance for A tier.
It does have a rough start as Sentret (20 base Speed sucks early on), but Sentret beats Faulkner, Furret overpowers Bugsy and Curlouts over Whitney and Morty, laughs at Chuck with Return, can Surf against Jasmine's Steelix if you really want to, eats Pryce alive, and somehow outspeeds and 1v1s Clair's Kingdra! Its fragility definitely shows at the League, where it is 2HKOed by virtually any strong move, but even then, it tends to KO 2 or 3 members with Return, and even against Lance it's at worst taking half his team (Gyarados and 2 Dragonite assuming you hit Curlout). It does like shuffling its moves around earlygame (upgrade from Quick Attack to Swift to Headbutt to Strength alongside Return in a pretty brief span of time) but that's minor - you could feasibly go without Swift if you have someone else help with Bugsy and Rival 2 (and I doubt Furret is bad for either because it is roughly even in the stats department at the point.
Every time I think about B tier for Furret, I look at Miltank and Spearow, who are both A despite coming later and boasting roughly similar credentials and it looks weird. B tier makes sense with those stats, but the dominance in major battles cannot be overstated. I hear Turdterra is going to test with this, but I urge others to try it out, it's by all means wayyyyyyyyy better than you'd expect and makes me wonder how good Rattata might be, maybe it has a chance for a high tier too.
I'm honestly shocked to be saying this after how much crap I talked about it in FRLG, but Slowpoke / Well Slowbro/King is still a C tier. Yes, it is slow killing early bosses with Curse. Yes, it is still going to be outsped by everything. But taking to account most people will simply grab a Slowbro and get to the midgame bosses (which I didn't, raised Poke from scratch), I honestly think it's not that bad. My Slowpoke unevolved still swept Pryce lol. C is the absolute highest it should go. The reason I say C is because it was consistently useful in the League with its resistances and generally contributed there. But it's still the Slowpoke family, and you already know how much that isn't efficient. D isn't unreasonable but I think it's kind of overkill, personally.
Tentacruel is B tier. Honestly don't have much to say on this. It's decently versatile (Barrier helps endgame) and has a good STAB combo, but there are plenty of battles it doesn't run over in the Pokemon League and that holds it back, despite taking Clair's Kingdra fine. Also, Slow growth rate sucks, and coming post-Morty isn't really desirable for an A tier (I cite Magmar and Miltank - both are As and come pre-Morty, roughly halfway through the game). A tiers that late need some unparalled dominance near constantly, and Tentacool / Cruel simply doesn't do that once you hit the Pokemon League. Check the logs if need be.
Jynx's tier depends on how much you weigh the late availability. There's no denying it performs from the moment you get it but it is really late, and that can easily sway me in favor of C. On the other hand, it really does matter in the battles it is around for aside from Bruno and maybe Karen (though it gets two KOs there). Borderline B / C, it really comes down to how much you think good Clair and Lance matchups weigh in this game. Check the logs for more information, there's not much else to say.
Faulkner:
Sentret (13): Quick Attack 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto. They don’t kill you fast enough: you should end the fight at roughly 1/3 HP (14/33 HP).
Bugsy:
Furret (16): Pink Bow. 2HKO cocoons with Swift, 3HKO Scyther, last bit of Scyther can be picked off by Quick Attack unless you get low damage rolls. They never kill you.
Slowpoke (16): Much to my surprise, +6 Tackle doesn’t even 2HKO Scyther, and it can probably crit you. Assuming it doesn’t crit you, you win, though Tackle’s miss chance can be a pain (Water Gun can probably finish off Scyther) and the damage can get pretty close to killing you. Ended in red.
Rival 2:
Furret (17): Pink Bow. You’re probably going to 4HKO Bayleef with Swift due to Growl (Razor Leaf seems to be a 5HKO, but I wouldn’t bet on that due to crits. Usually it derps). Zubat is 2HKOed by Swift (I assume I had a rebuff).
Slowpoke (16): 3HKOs Gastly with Water Gun. Zubat seems like a 4HKO with Water Gun but just avoid it; Supersonic and Bite are too annoying. Obviously avoid Bayleef.
Whitney:
Furret (20): Defense Curl into Rollout 2HKOs Clefairy and 2HKOs Miltank (it is faster). Even though it crit on Stomp and Milk Drinked, it still died. In an attempt where Clefairy used Growl and I missed Rollout on Tank, I STILL swept in low HP. So yeah, pretty watertight.
Slowpoke (20): Curse like 5 times and you spam Headbutt to win (Clefairy might live a Headbutt if it Curses once or twice).
Morty:
Furret (25): Pink Bow. Gastly Curses as you Defense Curl. Rollout 1 finishes it off, then Rollout 2 OHKOs Haunter, then you outspeed and OHKO Gengar with Rollout 3 (!). Rollout 4 OHKOs Gengar. If Gastly uses Spite turn 1, this doesn’t change the outcome.
Slowpoke (25): Gastly uses Curse and you kill it with Surf. Haunter tries to Hypnosis you and is 2HKOed by Surf. Gengar comes out, sleeps you and you die. I could Mint Berry but I think you’re only beating Gastly and one Haunter anyway.
Pryce:
Slowpoke (32-33): Pink Bow. +1 Strength takes Seel to red, and if it uses Rest, you can get another Curse off easily. +2 Strength does 2/3s of Dewgong’s HP, now you’re around half HP. Piloswine comes in and you 2HKO it with Surf, but…

Yeah. Two Blizzards come VERY close to killing you. +3 Strength does 2/3s to Piloswine by the way. Sweep seems consistent.
Furret (32): Pink Bow. First attempt had me 2HKO Seel and Dewgong (Seel looks like a roll to OHKO) with Strength, but Piloswine (3HKO) landed a crit Blizzard to finish me off. Second attempt went virtually the same, but Headbutting Piloswine gives you significantly better chances due to flinch chance and Blizzard miss chance and derp chance.
Classic Curlout works even better: Seel dies to Rollout 2, Dewgong is OHKOed, and Piloswine is OHKOed, not even an Attack drop from Aurora Beam stops this, notably.
Tentacruel (32): Sludge Bomb knocks Seel to red, but Dewgong is a 3HKO stall fest unless you poison it first turn (it still Rested on me turn 2, I eventually crit). Piloswine Surf OHKO seems like a roll. It seems consistent, still great as they aren’t really hurting you fast like ever.
Chuck:
Slowpoke (35): Mystic Water. Primape gets OHKOed by Strength after 3 Curses and you do 2/3s to Poliwrath with +3 Strength. You win at roughly 1/3 HP. You don’t even need Pink Bow here. Two uses of Curse OHKOs Primape and 2HKOs Poliwrath.
Furret (35): Pink Bow. Outspeed and OHKO Primape with Pink Bow Strength. Outspeed and 2HKO Poliwrath with Pink Bow Strength (looks close though). Easy sweep.
Tentacruel (35): Poison Barb. Outspeed and OHKO Primape with Sludge Bomb. Sludge Bomb is a shaky 2HKO on Poliwrath but potential poison can bridge the gap.
Jasmine:
Slowpoke (35): Mystic Water. Magnemite outspeeds and OHKOs you with Thunderbolt, don’t even try. Steelix dies like a baby (2HKO with Surf). Even if it puts sun up, it’s not beating you (you 3HKO).
Furret (35): PRZCureBerry. With PRZCureBerry, you can actually still barely 2HKO both Magnemite with Strength (look like rolls sometimes though, particularly when I crit), and thus take both of them. Otherwise (in another attempt, not paralyzed), you can also give it Surf to easily 2HKO Steelix, whose Iron Tail will likely do roughy half your HP. Not as useless as you’d imagine.
Tentacruel (35): Poison Barb. Even without Mystic Water, you outspeed and OHKO everything with Surf. Thunderbolt does 1/3 of your HP if you are wondering.
Rival Tunnel:
Jynx (34-35): NeverMeltIce. Outspeed and OHKO Golbat with Ice Punch (very helpful). Sneasel comes in, but you can 3HKO it while taking roughly half your HP in exchange. Magnemite comes in, you sleep it to avoid paralysis and 2HKO it. Haunter is so frail it folds to neutral Ice Punch, and Meganium is actually OHKOed.
In my second attempt I slept Sneasel, but got paralyzed by Magnemite and finished off by Haunter and Meganium. Still pretty good, it’s not like Magnemite or Sneasel threaten the average team with a Surf user anyway.
Slowbro (37): Mystic Water. Hey, remember Slowbro is slow? Yeah Bite flinches and Confuse Ray suck here, and to make matters worse, you leave Golbat in red with Surf. Magnemite adds in Thunder Wave to make confusion EVEN MORE of a pain. I have legit lost to Magnemite chipping me down with Thundershock because status is just that big of a pain in this battle.
Testing with Bitter Berry goes a lot better, you outspeed and thankfully OHKO Magnemite with Surf. Sneasel struggles to break your bulk as you 2HKO with Surf (I think it 5HKOs with Faint Attack lol). Avoiding Meganium for obvious reasons. You have enough health to eat a Shadow Ball from Haunter, OHKO it with Surf, then end at about 1/3 HP. One of the few matchups where Slowbro’s playstyle of 1v1ing doesn’t actively hurt, but you need a Berry nonetheless.
Tentacruel (36): Poison Barb. Golbat is cleanly left alive by Surf but confusion is annoying (feel free to use Bitter Berry if you want). Magnemite is OHKOed by Surf, as is Haunter. Both Sneasel and Meganium are left in red by Sludge Bomb. You should have just enough HP to sweep. One attempt. And no, Golbat doesn’t even come close to dying with Mystic Water Surf.
Furret (35-36): Pink Bow. Return sadly takes Golbat to red and 2HKOs Magnemite, but OHKOs Sneasel. Meganium is 2HKOed by Return. I didn’t heal Magnetite’s paralysis off and still won in red (never got fully paralyzed).
Try Curlout with a Bitter Berry. 2 Rollouts kill Golbat, Rollout 3 kills Magnemite, 4 kills Haunter, and 5 kills Sneasel assuming accuracy doesn’t screw you over. Return should 2HKO Meganium unless it goes for Reflect.
Clair:
Furret (39): Pink Bow. 250-255 Return consistently misses OHKOs on the Dragonair while they 4HKO with the special move of choice. Took out two before needing to heal, but at that point I reset.
With PRZCureBerry, you seem to 3HKO the first Dragonair with Rollout without Defense Curl. With Defense Curl…Dragonair sadly still lives two Rollouts, PLUS you need to have them not use Thunder Wave for two turns. Curlout 3 and 4 OHKO the other two Dragonair though. Kingdra comes out, and despite you outspeeding and 2HKOing with Return, it finishes you off by 2HKOing with Surf. Good.
Slowbro (38): PRZCureBerry. Unboosted Strength (with Pink Bow 3HKOs Dragonair while they do very little damage with DragonBreath. Using Curse without Pink Bow means you 2HKO Dragonair at +1. Unfortunately, the Thunderbolt Dragonair comes out and ruins your day. Kingdra’s DragonBreath is a 4HKO.
After two Curses you actually just manage to 2HKO Kingdra with Strength (no Pink Bow). But again, the Thunderbolt Dragonair comes out and 3HKOs with Thunderbolt, and it lives +2 Strength in mid-yellow. You’re just not sweeping here, not with paralysis and Smokescreen - I’m not bothering.
Tentacruel (38): PRZCureBerry. You do 2/3s to Dragonair with Poison Barb Sludge Bomb, but you can thankfully just barely 2HKO Dragonair without it while hopefully dodging Thunder Wave. You’ll very likely be paralyzed when Kingdra comes out, but you can Barrier to mitigate Hyper Beam. Sadly you’ll only have 4 Sludge Bomb PP left, but you 4HKO - I healed up at 19 HP. I was able to do it with one item and a lucky poison at 9 HP. I think you either take the Dragonair or take Kingdra. Regardless, pretty great! One test, can do more if need be but seems kinda clear cut.
Jynx (38): NeverMeltIce. Dragonair is outsped and OHKOed by Ice Punch and Kingdra comes in, thankfully you outspeed it. Sadly, you just BARELY miss the 2HKO on Kingdra with Ice Punch and Hyper Beam does 3/4s of your HP. Clair did use Smokescreen once, but that didn’t stop me from hitting the other Dragonair. It’s best to Lovely Kiss Kingdra, hope it stays asleep until Clair uses an item or two (she Hyper Potioned, then Full Healed once, after which I crit). You can use Powder Snow to prevent a heal. All you need is one Sleep really, but even discounting that, outspending and OHKOing the Dragonair trio is huge.
Rival VR:
Furret (40, 41 for Meganium): Pink Bow. Defense Curl, then 2HKO Sneasel with Rollout, Rollout 3 OHKOs Golbat, Rollout 4 OHKOs Magneton, Rollout 5 OHKOs Haunter. Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Return, Meganium is barely 2HKOed by Return. You can probably afford to X Accuracy on Sneasel, don’t usually advise that but it is fodder in every sense of the word.
Slowbro (40): Mystic Water. 2HKO Sneasel with Surf, OHKO Magneton with Surf, 2HKO Golbat with Surf (don’t try if paralyzed from Ton, Bite and Confuse Ray sucks), Haunter is a pain if paralyzed due to Confuse Ray, Curse and Shadow Ball, Kadabra is OHKOed and is a pansy, avoid Meganium.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Surf takes Sneasel and Magneton to red (inviting paralysis, I Full Heal it off as Kadabra comes in). Sludge Bomb OHKOs Kadabra and Surf 2HKOs Golbat. Surf OHKOs Haunter. You’re likely in low yellow from Golbat and Future Sight. Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Meganium. Obviously PRZCureBerry makes this better but I’m not bothering to test with it. Either way you get pretty low on HP, but good.
Jynx (40, 41 after Haunter): NeverMeltIce. You can Lovely Kiss Sneasel to prevent Screech and 3HKO with Ice Punch. Golbat comes in and dies. Magneton comes in, we both miss Thunder Wave and Lovely Kiss lol before I land the kiss of death. Based on a crit I got, Ice Punch likely 3HKOs Magneton - you definitely need sleep here. Ice Punch OHKOS Haunter and Kadabra and Meganium it seems.
Will:
Furret (41): Pink Bow. Return knocks Xatu 1 to red as Psychic just barely 2HKOs you (you outsped, it got a Special Defense drop but I seriously doubt it matters). Jynx comes in and is thankfully outsped and OHKOed. Exeggutor is a 2HKO with Return, but finishes you off with Psychic. Decent with Return.
Bitter Berry for Rollout. Rollout does not 2HKO Xatu unless you Defense Curl first. Anyway, after a lot of resets until the right timeline where Xatu 1 Confuse Ray, then Psychics, Curlout 2 kills Xatu, three OHKOS Jynx, 4 SOMEHOW OHKOs Exeggutor with a neutral move, and Curlout 5 drops Slowbro. Xatu 2 comes in, but I survive Psychic likely due to both a low roll and getting some HP upon level up earlier. BUT, it actually has Quick Attack - hilariously I lived at one HP.
So what do I think of this matchup? It’s alright, but nothing spectacular. The amount of RNG hoops you have to jump through (Xatu, Rollout not missing five times) is simply asking a bit too much with how fragile Furret is. However, getting 2.5 KOs normally with Return is not shabby at all. Not testing this more because it was bad enough just getting one attempt where everything went perfectly. Killing four with Rollout is nice, even if it’s likely out of reach with normal circumstances. Good.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Actually halfway decent. You 2HKO Xatu as it struggles to break your bulk with Psychic (two Xatu Psychics don’t even get you to yellow, does roughly 50 damage of your almost 150 HP combined). Jynx seems 3HKOed by Strength if my crit is any indication, does absolutely nothing with Psychic, but obviously watch out for Lovely Kiss. You’re around half HP with Xatu 2 comes in. You have juuuuuuuust enough HP (read: end in red) to 2HKO it with Surf. Pretty darn good, didn’t try on Exeggutor or Slowbro.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Outspeed and 2HKO Xatu 1 with Surf while it 2HKOs with Psychic, Jynx seems like it cleanly lives Sludge Bomb in low-yellow (read: Poison Barb doesn’t change this to a KO most likely) as it kills you, Slowbro is 4HKOed by Sludge Bomb as it 2HKOs you, the second Xatu seems like a range to 2HKO with Surf if my critical hit is any indiction, Exeggutor is taken to 1/3 HP by Sludge Bomb. Everything looks like it 2HKOs with Psychic if my Revives are any indication: I spammed them to speed up testing.
TLDR: You take 1 and a half mons, pretty poor. I think you outspeed everything though.
Jynx (41): NeverMeltIce. Outsped and nuke Xatu off the face of Johto with Ice Punch, Jynx comes in and this is where this gets funny, you sleep it then 2HKO with Body Slam of all moves (learned at 41) before it sleeps you. Slowbro is best left to something else - you can sleep it, but Ice Punch is a 4HKO. Second Xatu happens exactly the same way the first did. Now at level 42, Ice Punch OHKOs Exeggutor as well. Pretty great.
Koga:
Furret (41): Pink Bow. Return 2HKOs Ariados cleanly and knocks Venomoth to red, though Supersonic and Toxic suck. Avoid Forretress (Full Restored Furret after switching in case evasion rears its head later). Return thankfully 2HKOs Crobat even if you don’t outspeed - I consider this notable as most things fail to 2HKO Crobat. Muk is 2HKOed by Return. Pretty good, but yeah, hax.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Slowbro sadly can’t OHKO Ariados with Surf, but Forretress is pretty much a free 2HKO. Probably don’t bother with Crobat, you miss the Surf 2HKO and healing happens. You 3HKO Muk with Surf while it 4HKOs with Sludge Bomb, hope it doesn’t Minimize and Toxic you. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Surf and isn’t doing much beyond confusing you. Alright, I THINK you’re outsped by most things, but I don’t really care enough to double check at this point. Nevertheless, slightly good.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Outspeeds and 2HKOs Ariados with Surf but Double Team is a pain. Just barely 2HKOs Venomoth with Surf. Unfortunately, bad luck with confusion necessitates healing on Forretress - I’m at a third when it falls via Surf 2HKO. Surf 3HKOs Muk and you can Barrier to make Sludge Bomb do chip damage if you want. I’m now at 32 HP. Crobat is left to something that can kill it faster - it is 3HKOed by Surf and I ACTUALLY RAN OUT OF PP ON SURF BEFORE I COULD KILL IT. And Full Restore means you have to resort to BubbleBeam. LOL. Decent, resisting Muk’s Sludge Bomb is a pretty big help, it’s just they are going to get evasion crap going whether you like it or not.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. Ariados is knocked to red by Ice Punch. Surprisingly, you barely 3HKO Forretress with Ice Punch. Venomoth is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Punch, and one Max Elixir later (usually use these offscreen, so not counting it against Jynx) I am level 43 for Crobat as I use some fodder. Unfortunately, due to chip from Spikes and other moves, Jynx dies to Wing Attack. Despite this concerning pedigree, if you land a hit on Crobat you OHKO it with Ice Punch (full disclosure, I Max Revived for speed here). You can Lovely Kiss Muk and 3HKO it with Ice Punch, but Sludge Bomb does like 3/4s of your HP. Despite the mess, I’d say this is good (a little worse than Will).
Bruno:
Furret (42): Pink Bow. Return does 2/3s to Hitmontop as it uses Dig. Since you are faster you can get a free Defense Curl here. Hitmonlee comes out, much to my shock, you outspeed and OHKO with Return. Hitmonchan comes out and Mach Punches, but thanks to Defense Curl it only does like 3HKO damage thanks to chip from Dig. Return, based on a crit seems like it 3HKOs Machamp. I tested again, and yeah, Lee is still OHKOed, and yes, Machamp is 3HKOed. Oddly solid.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. This matchup plays out really weirdly in that you can actually Curse to max and OHKO stuff, though you likely need to heal by the time Hitmonchan falls second (Hitmonchan’s Thunderpunch is maybe a 3HKO or 4HKO). Lee comes out and dies, and Onix dies to Surf as it sets sand. Machamp’s Rock Slide flinches are a pain (I swear I flinched like three turns in a row) but if you hit it should die with Sandstorm chip. You can Pink Bow if you want but I didn’t need to.
Surf 3HKOs Top, 2HKOs Chan, and OHKOs Onix, who you will need to heal after you beat (again, you Curse once as Top uses Dig for a free boost). You 2HKO Lee with Surf and 3HKO Machamp with Surf, but again, Rock Slide flinches and a Max Potion use on Machamp sucks. Finished in red HP.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Sadly Surf only 3HKOs Hitmontop, though you can Barrier on the second turn of Dig (it does less than 30 damage this way). After another Barrier and you kill it, you should be at 2/3s HP. Hitmonchan comes out, you 3HKO it, but Thunderpunch unfortunately paralyzes me. I kill Chan and Full Restore as Lee comes out, and Lee is again a 3HKO with Surf, though I score a crit this time. Onix comes out and gets crit to death but I doubt it matters. Machamp comes out, it heals once, and I run out of Surf PP but that matters little since I crit with Sludge Bomb and it’s not killing you. Meh, they can’t kill you but you also take longer than you should to kill them. If you could 2HKO more I’d call this good. Ended in yellow HP with one item used, seems clear-cut.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. Hitmontop and Hitmonchan are 2HKOed by Ice Punch barely, but they do enough chip that you’ll need to heal when Onix comes out…sadly it 2HKOs with Rock Slide, so just OHKO it with Ice Punch. Fodder for a potion later, Machamp comes out. I sleep it and Max Elixir (again, not holding this against Jynx). It turns out you 3HKO Machamp, but Rock Slide OHKOs you back. Jynx crit Hitmonlee out (you 2HKO with Ice Punch), but another attempt reveals Swagger confusion hit + HJK kills you. Mediocre.
Karen:
Furret (42): Pink Bow. Return 3HKOs Umbreon but it can chip you with Confuse Ray and Faint Attack (like I was around roughly 1/3 HP when I beat it). Vileplume is 2HKOed by Return and Petal Dance does 1/3 of your HP. Gengar you can’t touch. You and Houndoom 2HKO each other with Return and Flamethrower but you should come out on top if you are faster. Murkrow is actually outsped and OHKOed by Return. You’re not sweeping at all, but this is decent.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Don’t bother with Umbreon, Surf is a 4HKO, it can confuse you, and IIRC Faint Attack is like a 3HKO. Avoid Vileplume obviously. Curse + Surf KOs Gengar. Murkrow only 3HKOs with Faint Attack while you knock it to red with Surf. You and Houndoom both knock each other to red with Surf and Crunch respectively: it comes out on top. Poor.
Tentacruel (42): Poison Barb. Sludge Bomb 4HKOs Umbreon, but three uses and a round of poison after the third use actually made the difference. I switched out after to rid myself of confusion and accuracy drops as Vileplume locked into Petal Dance. I think Petal Dance is a rough 4HKO but Plume crit me with some prior damage from Umbreon while you IIRC 3HKO back with Sludge Bomb. Curse + Surf sadly leaves Gengar alive, but Mystic Water may close the gap on that - it can also Destiny Bond you. Sludge Bomb damage also looked a little close on Plume though too.
Tentacruel outspeeds and 2HKOs Houndoom with Surf as Crunch is a 3HKO. Now at level 43, I outspeed and cleanly 2HKO Murkrow with Surf. Decent.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. Umbreon 3HKOs with Faint Attack, but you can Lovely Kiss it; sadly Ice Punch misses the 3HKO. Obviously avoid Houndoom. Vileplume lives Ice Punch (I had one attempt where it was OHKOed, oddly, but I think it usually lives in red) but does pretty insignificant damage with Petal Dance. Now at level 43, I accidentally misclick Powder Snow to do like 1/3 to Gengar, then have to heal - sadly Lick paralyzes me after and Ice Punch does 2/3s of Gengar’s HP to kill it, which I confirmed in another attempt clicking correctly. Murkrow 2HKOs with Faint Attack, but assuming no paralysis, you outspeed and OHKO with Ice Punch. Decent.
Lance:
Furret (42): Pink Bow. You outspeed and Defense Curl as Gyarados uses Rain Dance. Curlout 1 does 1/3 as rain-boosted Surf does 2/3s of your HP. Curlout 2 finishes Gyarados off. Level 47 Dragonite comes in, you outspeed and blow it up with Curlout 3. The other 47 Dragonite comes in, it gets outsped and blown up. Furret grows to level 43 as Aerodactyl comes in, Rock Slides me to red (thus, a 4HKO I believe) and Curlout 5 kills it. It’s obvious I’m too frail to make healing matter as Charizard comes out - Curlout 1 takes it to low yellow as Flamethrower kills me.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Surf knocks Charizard to red and you can easily eat Hyper Beams from it. AncientPower from Aerodactyl does like 40 damage (4HKO) as Surf surprisingly OHKOs Aerodactyl. Not testing the others.
Tentacruel (43): Poison Barb. You can Barrier as much as you like on Gyarados because it spams Flail, it’s helpful that you outspeed it. At max Defense, Gyarados’s Hyper Beam does like 20 damage of your roughly 130 HP. Despite Gyarados’s high Special Defense, Poison Barb Sludge Bomb cleanly 3HKOs it. Dragonite level 47 comes out and I’m at about 2/3s HP.
Then goofy stuff happens. I miss Icy Wind as he misses Thunder Wave. THEN I crit Icy Wind to knock it to red (thus it’s probably a 3HKO) as he misses Thunder. The next level 47 Dragonite comes out and Sludge Bomb a little less damage than Icy Wind, but I oddly picked up the KO with Icy Wind on Dragonite after one round of Sludge Bomb poison (read: Icy Wind did like 2/3s of its HP) so I dunno.
Third Dragonite comes out (level 50) and I’m still paralyzed from the last one. Outrage is a 3HKO on Tentacruel as I barely miss the 2HKO with Icy Wind, implying the last bit of damage with it wasn’t the fluke. Since I’m at red and paralyzed, I Full Restore up. Just like the last Dragonite, I pick up the KO with Icy Wind (I legit dunno how this keeps happening).
Charizard comes out, I outspeed and Surf it to red as Flamethrower takes me to yellow. Aerodactyl Hyper Beams me to 34 HP as I Icy Wind Aerodactyl (I expected Rock Slide to screw me over). Surf finishes it off.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. You can outspeed and sleep Gyarados with Lovely Kiss. Ice Punch does just enough for a 3HKO on it. Charizard is a definite no - it outspeeds and OHKOs with Flamethrower. Level 47 Dragonite comes in after I’m all revived. Ice Punch OHKO, Jynx grows to level 43, Aerodactyl comes in and forces Jynx out (no way it’s living Rock Slide). Both the level 47 and level 50 Dragonite are outsped and OHKOed by Ice Punch.
Sentret (13): Quick Attack 2HKOs Pidgey and 3HKOs Pidgeotto. They don’t kill you fast enough: you should end the fight at roughly 1/3 HP (14/33 HP).
Bugsy:
Furret (16): Pink Bow. 2HKO cocoons with Swift, 3HKO Scyther, last bit of Scyther can be picked off by Quick Attack unless you get low damage rolls. They never kill you.
Slowpoke (16): Much to my surprise, +6 Tackle doesn’t even 2HKO Scyther, and it can probably crit you. Assuming it doesn’t crit you, you win, though Tackle’s miss chance can be a pain (Water Gun can probably finish off Scyther) and the damage can get pretty close to killing you. Ended in red.
Rival 2:
Furret (17): Pink Bow. You’re probably going to 4HKO Bayleef with Swift due to Growl (Razor Leaf seems to be a 5HKO, but I wouldn’t bet on that due to crits. Usually it derps). Zubat is 2HKOed by Swift (I assume I had a rebuff).
Slowpoke (16): 3HKOs Gastly with Water Gun. Zubat seems like a 4HKO with Water Gun but just avoid it; Supersonic and Bite are too annoying. Obviously avoid Bayleef.
Whitney:
Furret (20): Defense Curl into Rollout 2HKOs Clefairy and 2HKOs Miltank (it is faster). Even though it crit on Stomp and Milk Drinked, it still died. In an attempt where Clefairy used Growl and I missed Rollout on Tank, I STILL swept in low HP. So yeah, pretty watertight.
Slowpoke (20): Curse like 5 times and you spam Headbutt to win (Clefairy might live a Headbutt if it Curses once or twice).
Morty:
Furret (25): Pink Bow. Gastly Curses as you Defense Curl. Rollout 1 finishes it off, then Rollout 2 OHKOs Haunter, then you outspeed and OHKO Gengar with Rollout 3 (!). Rollout 4 OHKOs Gengar. If Gastly uses Spite turn 1, this doesn’t change the outcome.
Slowpoke (25): Gastly uses Curse and you kill it with Surf. Haunter tries to Hypnosis you and is 2HKOed by Surf. Gengar comes out, sleeps you and you die. I could Mint Berry but I think you’re only beating Gastly and one Haunter anyway.
Pryce:
Slowpoke (32-33): Pink Bow. +1 Strength takes Seel to red, and if it uses Rest, you can get another Curse off easily. +2 Strength does 2/3s of Dewgong’s HP, now you’re around half HP. Piloswine comes in and you 2HKO it with Surf, but…

Yeah. Two Blizzards come VERY close to killing you. +3 Strength does 2/3s to Piloswine by the way. Sweep seems consistent.
Furret (32): Pink Bow. First attempt had me 2HKO Seel and Dewgong (Seel looks like a roll to OHKO) with Strength, but Piloswine (3HKO) landed a crit Blizzard to finish me off. Second attempt went virtually the same, but Headbutting Piloswine gives you significantly better chances due to flinch chance and Blizzard miss chance and derp chance.
Classic Curlout works even better: Seel dies to Rollout 2, Dewgong is OHKOed, and Piloswine is OHKOed, not even an Attack drop from Aurora Beam stops this, notably.
Tentacruel (32): Sludge Bomb knocks Seel to red, but Dewgong is a 3HKO stall fest unless you poison it first turn (it still Rested on me turn 2, I eventually crit). Piloswine Surf OHKO seems like a roll. It seems consistent, still great as they aren’t really hurting you fast like ever.
Chuck:
Slowpoke (35): Mystic Water. Primape gets OHKOed by Strength after 3 Curses and you do 2/3s to Poliwrath with +3 Strength. You win at roughly 1/3 HP. You don’t even need Pink Bow here. Two uses of Curse OHKOs Primape and 2HKOs Poliwrath.
Furret (35): Pink Bow. Outspeed and OHKO Primape with Pink Bow Strength. Outspeed and 2HKO Poliwrath with Pink Bow Strength (looks close though). Easy sweep.
Tentacruel (35): Poison Barb. Outspeed and OHKO Primape with Sludge Bomb. Sludge Bomb is a shaky 2HKO on Poliwrath but potential poison can bridge the gap.
Jasmine:
Slowpoke (35): Mystic Water. Magnemite outspeeds and OHKOs you with Thunderbolt, don’t even try. Steelix dies like a baby (2HKO with Surf). Even if it puts sun up, it’s not beating you (you 3HKO).
Furret (35): PRZCureBerry. With PRZCureBerry, you can actually still barely 2HKO both Magnemite with Strength (look like rolls sometimes though, particularly when I crit), and thus take both of them. Otherwise (in another attempt, not paralyzed), you can also give it Surf to easily 2HKO Steelix, whose Iron Tail will likely do roughy half your HP. Not as useless as you’d imagine.
Tentacruel (35): Poison Barb. Even without Mystic Water, you outspeed and OHKO everything with Surf. Thunderbolt does 1/3 of your HP if you are wondering.
Rival Tunnel:
Jynx (34-35): NeverMeltIce. Outspeed and OHKO Golbat with Ice Punch (very helpful). Sneasel comes in, but you can 3HKO it while taking roughly half your HP in exchange. Magnemite comes in, you sleep it to avoid paralysis and 2HKO it. Haunter is so frail it folds to neutral Ice Punch, and Meganium is actually OHKOed.
In my second attempt I slept Sneasel, but got paralyzed by Magnemite and finished off by Haunter and Meganium. Still pretty good, it’s not like Magnemite or Sneasel threaten the average team with a Surf user anyway.
Slowbro (37): Mystic Water. Hey, remember Slowbro is slow? Yeah Bite flinches and Confuse Ray suck here, and to make matters worse, you leave Golbat in red with Surf. Magnemite adds in Thunder Wave to make confusion EVEN MORE of a pain. I have legit lost to Magnemite chipping me down with Thundershock because status is just that big of a pain in this battle.
Testing with Bitter Berry goes a lot better, you outspeed and thankfully OHKO Magnemite with Surf. Sneasel struggles to break your bulk as you 2HKO with Surf (I think it 5HKOs with Faint Attack lol). Avoiding Meganium for obvious reasons. You have enough health to eat a Shadow Ball from Haunter, OHKO it with Surf, then end at about 1/3 HP. One of the few matchups where Slowbro’s playstyle of 1v1ing doesn’t actively hurt, but you need a Berry nonetheless.
Tentacruel (36): Poison Barb. Golbat is cleanly left alive by Surf but confusion is annoying (feel free to use Bitter Berry if you want). Magnemite is OHKOed by Surf, as is Haunter. Both Sneasel and Meganium are left in red by Sludge Bomb. You should have just enough HP to sweep. One attempt. And no, Golbat doesn’t even come close to dying with Mystic Water Surf.
Furret (35-36): Pink Bow. Return sadly takes Golbat to red and 2HKOs Magnemite, but OHKOs Sneasel. Meganium is 2HKOed by Return. I didn’t heal Magnetite’s paralysis off and still won in red (never got fully paralyzed).
Try Curlout with a Bitter Berry. 2 Rollouts kill Golbat, Rollout 3 kills Magnemite, 4 kills Haunter, and 5 kills Sneasel assuming accuracy doesn’t screw you over. Return should 2HKO Meganium unless it goes for Reflect.
Clair:
Furret (39): Pink Bow. 250-255 Return consistently misses OHKOs on the Dragonair while they 4HKO with the special move of choice. Took out two before needing to heal, but at that point I reset.
With PRZCureBerry, you seem to 3HKO the first Dragonair with Rollout without Defense Curl. With Defense Curl…Dragonair sadly still lives two Rollouts, PLUS you need to have them not use Thunder Wave for two turns. Curlout 3 and 4 OHKO the other two Dragonair though. Kingdra comes out, and despite you outspeeding and 2HKOing with Return, it finishes you off by 2HKOing with Surf. Good.
Slowbro (38): PRZCureBerry. Unboosted Strength (with Pink Bow 3HKOs Dragonair while they do very little damage with DragonBreath. Using Curse without Pink Bow means you 2HKO Dragonair at +1. Unfortunately, the Thunderbolt Dragonair comes out and ruins your day. Kingdra’s DragonBreath is a 4HKO.
After two Curses you actually just manage to 2HKO Kingdra with Strength (no Pink Bow). But again, the Thunderbolt Dragonair comes out and 3HKOs with Thunderbolt, and it lives +2 Strength in mid-yellow. You’re just not sweeping here, not with paralysis and Smokescreen - I’m not bothering.
Tentacruel (38): PRZCureBerry. You do 2/3s to Dragonair with Poison Barb Sludge Bomb, but you can thankfully just barely 2HKO Dragonair without it while hopefully dodging Thunder Wave. You’ll very likely be paralyzed when Kingdra comes out, but you can Barrier to mitigate Hyper Beam. Sadly you’ll only have 4 Sludge Bomb PP left, but you 4HKO - I healed up at 19 HP. I was able to do it with one item and a lucky poison at 9 HP. I think you either take the Dragonair or take Kingdra. Regardless, pretty great! One test, can do more if need be but seems kinda clear cut.
Jynx (38): NeverMeltIce. Dragonair is outsped and OHKOed by Ice Punch and Kingdra comes in, thankfully you outspeed it. Sadly, you just BARELY miss the 2HKO on Kingdra with Ice Punch and Hyper Beam does 3/4s of your HP. Clair did use Smokescreen once, but that didn’t stop me from hitting the other Dragonair. It’s best to Lovely Kiss Kingdra, hope it stays asleep until Clair uses an item or two (she Hyper Potioned, then Full Healed once, after which I crit). You can use Powder Snow to prevent a heal. All you need is one Sleep really, but even discounting that, outspending and OHKOing the Dragonair trio is huge.
Rival VR:
Furret (40, 41 for Meganium): Pink Bow. Defense Curl, then 2HKO Sneasel with Rollout, Rollout 3 OHKOs Golbat, Rollout 4 OHKOs Magneton, Rollout 5 OHKOs Haunter. Haunter is outsped and OHKOed by Return, Meganium is barely 2HKOed by Return. You can probably afford to X Accuracy on Sneasel, don’t usually advise that but it is fodder in every sense of the word.
Slowbro (40): Mystic Water. 2HKO Sneasel with Surf, OHKO Magneton with Surf, 2HKO Golbat with Surf (don’t try if paralyzed from Ton, Bite and Confuse Ray sucks), Haunter is a pain if paralyzed due to Confuse Ray, Curse and Shadow Ball, Kadabra is OHKOed and is a pansy, avoid Meganium.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Surf takes Sneasel and Magneton to red (inviting paralysis, I Full Heal it off as Kadabra comes in). Sludge Bomb OHKOs Kadabra and Surf 2HKOs Golbat. Surf OHKOs Haunter. You’re likely in low yellow from Golbat and Future Sight. Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Meganium. Obviously PRZCureBerry makes this better but I’m not bothering to test with it. Either way you get pretty low on HP, but good.
Jynx (40, 41 after Haunter): NeverMeltIce. You can Lovely Kiss Sneasel to prevent Screech and 3HKO with Ice Punch. Golbat comes in and dies. Magneton comes in, we both miss Thunder Wave and Lovely Kiss lol before I land the kiss of death. Based on a crit I got, Ice Punch likely 3HKOs Magneton - you definitely need sleep here. Ice Punch OHKOS Haunter and Kadabra and Meganium it seems.
Will:
Furret (41): Pink Bow. Return knocks Xatu 1 to red as Psychic just barely 2HKOs you (you outsped, it got a Special Defense drop but I seriously doubt it matters). Jynx comes in and is thankfully outsped and OHKOed. Exeggutor is a 2HKO with Return, but finishes you off with Psychic. Decent with Return.
Bitter Berry for Rollout. Rollout does not 2HKO Xatu unless you Defense Curl first. Anyway, after a lot of resets until the right timeline where Xatu 1 Confuse Ray, then Psychics, Curlout 2 kills Xatu, three OHKOS Jynx, 4 SOMEHOW OHKOs Exeggutor with a neutral move, and Curlout 5 drops Slowbro. Xatu 2 comes in, but I survive Psychic likely due to both a low roll and getting some HP upon level up earlier. BUT, it actually has Quick Attack - hilariously I lived at one HP.
So what do I think of this matchup? It’s alright, but nothing spectacular. The amount of RNG hoops you have to jump through (Xatu, Rollout not missing five times) is simply asking a bit too much with how fragile Furret is. However, getting 2.5 KOs normally with Return is not shabby at all. Not testing this more because it was bad enough just getting one attempt where everything went perfectly. Killing four with Rollout is nice, even if it’s likely out of reach with normal circumstances. Good.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Actually halfway decent. You 2HKO Xatu as it struggles to break your bulk with Psychic (two Xatu Psychics don’t even get you to yellow, does roughly 50 damage of your almost 150 HP combined). Jynx seems 3HKOed by Strength if my crit is any indication, does absolutely nothing with Psychic, but obviously watch out for Lovely Kiss. You’re around half HP with Xatu 2 comes in. You have juuuuuuuust enough HP (read: end in red) to 2HKO it with Surf. Pretty darn good, didn’t try on Exeggutor or Slowbro.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Outspeed and 2HKO Xatu 1 with Surf while it 2HKOs with Psychic, Jynx seems like it cleanly lives Sludge Bomb in low-yellow (read: Poison Barb doesn’t change this to a KO most likely) as it kills you, Slowbro is 4HKOed by Sludge Bomb as it 2HKOs you, the second Xatu seems like a range to 2HKO with Surf if my critical hit is any indiction, Exeggutor is taken to 1/3 HP by Sludge Bomb. Everything looks like it 2HKOs with Psychic if my Revives are any indication: I spammed them to speed up testing.
TLDR: You take 1 and a half mons, pretty poor. I think you outspeed everything though.
Jynx (41): NeverMeltIce. Outsped and nuke Xatu off the face of Johto with Ice Punch, Jynx comes in and this is where this gets funny, you sleep it then 2HKO with Body Slam of all moves (learned at 41) before it sleeps you. Slowbro is best left to something else - you can sleep it, but Ice Punch is a 4HKO. Second Xatu happens exactly the same way the first did. Now at level 42, Ice Punch OHKOs Exeggutor as well. Pretty great.
Koga:
Furret (41): Pink Bow. Return 2HKOs Ariados cleanly and knocks Venomoth to red, though Supersonic and Toxic suck. Avoid Forretress (Full Restored Furret after switching in case evasion rears its head later). Return thankfully 2HKOs Crobat even if you don’t outspeed - I consider this notable as most things fail to 2HKO Crobat. Muk is 2HKOed by Return. Pretty good, but yeah, hax.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Slowbro sadly can’t OHKO Ariados with Surf, but Forretress is pretty much a free 2HKO. Probably don’t bother with Crobat, you miss the Surf 2HKO and healing happens. You 3HKO Muk with Surf while it 4HKOs with Sludge Bomb, hope it doesn’t Minimize and Toxic you. Venomoth is 2HKOed by Surf and isn’t doing much beyond confusing you. Alright, I THINK you’re outsped by most things, but I don’t really care enough to double check at this point. Nevertheless, slightly good.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Outspeeds and 2HKOs Ariados with Surf but Double Team is a pain. Just barely 2HKOs Venomoth with Surf. Unfortunately, bad luck with confusion necessitates healing on Forretress - I’m at a third when it falls via Surf 2HKO. Surf 3HKOs Muk and you can Barrier to make Sludge Bomb do chip damage if you want. I’m now at 32 HP. Crobat is left to something that can kill it faster - it is 3HKOed by Surf and I ACTUALLY RAN OUT OF PP ON SURF BEFORE I COULD KILL IT. And Full Restore means you have to resort to BubbleBeam. LOL. Decent, resisting Muk’s Sludge Bomb is a pretty big help, it’s just they are going to get evasion crap going whether you like it or not.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. Ariados is knocked to red by Ice Punch. Surprisingly, you barely 3HKO Forretress with Ice Punch. Venomoth is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Punch, and one Max Elixir later (usually use these offscreen, so not counting it against Jynx) I am level 43 for Crobat as I use some fodder. Unfortunately, due to chip from Spikes and other moves, Jynx dies to Wing Attack. Despite this concerning pedigree, if you land a hit on Crobat you OHKO it with Ice Punch (full disclosure, I Max Revived for speed here). You can Lovely Kiss Muk and 3HKO it with Ice Punch, but Sludge Bomb does like 3/4s of your HP. Despite the mess, I’d say this is good (a little worse than Will).
Bruno:
Furret (42): Pink Bow. Return does 2/3s to Hitmontop as it uses Dig. Since you are faster you can get a free Defense Curl here. Hitmonlee comes out, much to my shock, you outspeed and OHKO with Return. Hitmonchan comes out and Mach Punches, but thanks to Defense Curl it only does like 3HKO damage thanks to chip from Dig. Return, based on a crit seems like it 3HKOs Machamp. I tested again, and yeah, Lee is still OHKOed, and yes, Machamp is 3HKOed. Oddly solid.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. This matchup plays out really weirdly in that you can actually Curse to max and OHKO stuff, though you likely need to heal by the time Hitmonchan falls second (Hitmonchan’s Thunderpunch is maybe a 3HKO or 4HKO). Lee comes out and dies, and Onix dies to Surf as it sets sand. Machamp’s Rock Slide flinches are a pain (I swear I flinched like three turns in a row) but if you hit it should die with Sandstorm chip. You can Pink Bow if you want but I didn’t need to.
Surf 3HKOs Top, 2HKOs Chan, and OHKOs Onix, who you will need to heal after you beat (again, you Curse once as Top uses Dig for a free boost). You 2HKO Lee with Surf and 3HKO Machamp with Surf, but again, Rock Slide flinches and a Max Potion use on Machamp sucks. Finished in red HP.
Tentacruel (41): Mystic Water. Sadly Surf only 3HKOs Hitmontop, though you can Barrier on the second turn of Dig (it does less than 30 damage this way). After another Barrier and you kill it, you should be at 2/3s HP. Hitmonchan comes out, you 3HKO it, but Thunderpunch unfortunately paralyzes me. I kill Chan and Full Restore as Lee comes out, and Lee is again a 3HKO with Surf, though I score a crit this time. Onix comes out and gets crit to death but I doubt it matters. Machamp comes out, it heals once, and I run out of Surf PP but that matters little since I crit with Sludge Bomb and it’s not killing you. Meh, they can’t kill you but you also take longer than you should to kill them. If you could 2HKO more I’d call this good. Ended in yellow HP with one item used, seems clear-cut.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. Hitmontop and Hitmonchan are 2HKOed by Ice Punch barely, but they do enough chip that you’ll need to heal when Onix comes out…sadly it 2HKOs with Rock Slide, so just OHKO it with Ice Punch. Fodder for a potion later, Machamp comes out. I sleep it and Max Elixir (again, not holding this against Jynx). It turns out you 3HKO Machamp, but Rock Slide OHKOs you back. Jynx crit Hitmonlee out (you 2HKO with Ice Punch), but another attempt reveals Swagger confusion hit + HJK kills you. Mediocre.
Karen:
Furret (42): Pink Bow. Return 3HKOs Umbreon but it can chip you with Confuse Ray and Faint Attack (like I was around roughly 1/3 HP when I beat it). Vileplume is 2HKOed by Return and Petal Dance does 1/3 of your HP. Gengar you can’t touch. You and Houndoom 2HKO each other with Return and Flamethrower but you should come out on top if you are faster. Murkrow is actually outsped and OHKOed by Return. You’re not sweeping at all, but this is decent.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Don’t bother with Umbreon, Surf is a 4HKO, it can confuse you, and IIRC Faint Attack is like a 3HKO. Avoid Vileplume obviously. Curse + Surf KOs Gengar. Murkrow only 3HKOs with Faint Attack while you knock it to red with Surf. You and Houndoom both knock each other to red with Surf and Crunch respectively: it comes out on top. Poor.
Tentacruel (42): Poison Barb. Sludge Bomb 4HKOs Umbreon, but three uses and a round of poison after the third use actually made the difference. I switched out after to rid myself of confusion and accuracy drops as Vileplume locked into Petal Dance. I think Petal Dance is a rough 4HKO but Plume crit me with some prior damage from Umbreon while you IIRC 3HKO back with Sludge Bomb. Curse + Surf sadly leaves Gengar alive, but Mystic Water may close the gap on that - it can also Destiny Bond you. Sludge Bomb damage also looked a little close on Plume though too.
Tentacruel outspeeds and 2HKOs Houndoom with Surf as Crunch is a 3HKO. Now at level 43, I outspeed and cleanly 2HKO Murkrow with Surf. Decent.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. Umbreon 3HKOs with Faint Attack, but you can Lovely Kiss it; sadly Ice Punch misses the 3HKO. Obviously avoid Houndoom. Vileplume lives Ice Punch (I had one attempt where it was OHKOed, oddly, but I think it usually lives in red) but does pretty insignificant damage with Petal Dance. Now at level 43, I accidentally misclick Powder Snow to do like 1/3 to Gengar, then have to heal - sadly Lick paralyzes me after and Ice Punch does 2/3s of Gengar’s HP to kill it, which I confirmed in another attempt clicking correctly. Murkrow 2HKOs with Faint Attack, but assuming no paralysis, you outspeed and OHKO with Ice Punch. Decent.
Lance:
Furret (42): Pink Bow. You outspeed and Defense Curl as Gyarados uses Rain Dance. Curlout 1 does 1/3 as rain-boosted Surf does 2/3s of your HP. Curlout 2 finishes Gyarados off. Level 47 Dragonite comes in, you outspeed and blow it up with Curlout 3. The other 47 Dragonite comes in, it gets outsped and blown up. Furret grows to level 43 as Aerodactyl comes in, Rock Slides me to red (thus, a 4HKO I believe) and Curlout 5 kills it. It’s obvious I’m too frail to make healing matter as Charizard comes out - Curlout 1 takes it to low yellow as Flamethrower kills me.
Slowbro (41): Mystic Water. Surf knocks Charizard to red and you can easily eat Hyper Beams from it. AncientPower from Aerodactyl does like 40 damage (4HKO) as Surf surprisingly OHKOs Aerodactyl. Not testing the others.
Tentacruel (43): Poison Barb. You can Barrier as much as you like on Gyarados because it spams Flail, it’s helpful that you outspeed it. At max Defense, Gyarados’s Hyper Beam does like 20 damage of your roughly 130 HP. Despite Gyarados’s high Special Defense, Poison Barb Sludge Bomb cleanly 3HKOs it. Dragonite level 47 comes out and I’m at about 2/3s HP.
Then goofy stuff happens. I miss Icy Wind as he misses Thunder Wave. THEN I crit Icy Wind to knock it to red (thus it’s probably a 3HKO) as he misses Thunder. The next level 47 Dragonite comes out and Sludge Bomb a little less damage than Icy Wind, but I oddly picked up the KO with Icy Wind on Dragonite after one round of Sludge Bomb poison (read: Icy Wind did like 2/3s of its HP) so I dunno.
Third Dragonite comes out (level 50) and I’m still paralyzed from the last one. Outrage is a 3HKO on Tentacruel as I barely miss the 2HKO with Icy Wind, implying the last bit of damage with it wasn’t the fluke. Since I’m at red and paralyzed, I Full Restore up. Just like the last Dragonite, I pick up the KO with Icy Wind (I legit dunno how this keeps happening).
Charizard comes out, I outspeed and Surf it to red as Flamethrower takes me to yellow. Aerodactyl Hyper Beams me to 34 HP as I Icy Wind Aerodactyl (I expected Rock Slide to screw me over). Surf finishes it off.
Jynx (42): NeverMeltIce. You can outspeed and sleep Gyarados with Lovely Kiss. Ice Punch does just enough for a 3HKO on it. Charizard is a definite no - it outspeeds and OHKOs with Flamethrower. Level 47 Dragonite comes in after I’m all revived. Ice Punch OHKO, Jynx grows to level 43, Aerodactyl comes in and forces Jynx out (no way it’s living Rock Slide). Both the level 47 and level 50 Dragonite are outsped and OHKOed by Ice Punch.
Onto the rankings!
Furret was a weird beast. I highly recommend you read the logs for this one. It's so bizarre to me, because statwise, Furret really isn't anything special, like, look at those stats.
And yet...Furret has an honest-to-goodness chance for A tier.
It does have a rough start as Sentret (20 base Speed sucks early on), but Sentret beats Faulkner, Furret overpowers Bugsy and Curlouts over Whitney and Morty, laughs at Chuck with Return, can Surf against Jasmine's Steelix if you really want to, eats Pryce alive, and somehow outspeeds and 1v1s Clair's Kingdra! Its fragility definitely shows at the League, where it is 2HKOed by virtually any strong move, but even then, it tends to KO 2 or 3 members with Return, and even against Lance it's at worst taking half his team (Gyarados and 2 Dragonite assuming you hit Curlout). It does like shuffling its moves around earlygame (upgrade from Quick Attack to Swift to Headbutt to Strength alongside Return in a pretty brief span of time) but that's minor - you could feasibly go without Swift if you have someone else help with Bugsy and Rival 2 (and I doubt Furret is bad for either because it is roughly even in the stats department at the point.
Every time I think about B tier for Furret, I look at Miltank and Spearow, who are both A despite coming later and boasting roughly similar credentials and it looks weird. B tier makes sense with those stats, but the dominance in major battles cannot be overstated. I hear Turdterra is going to test with this, but I urge others to try it out, it's by all means wayyyyyyyyy better than you'd expect and makes me wonder how good Rattata might be, maybe it has a chance for a high tier too.
I'm honestly shocked to be saying this after how much crap I talked about it in FRLG, but Slowpoke / Well Slowbro/King is still a C tier. Yes, it is slow killing early bosses with Curse. Yes, it is still going to be outsped by everything. But taking to account most people will simply grab a Slowbro and get to the midgame bosses (which I didn't, raised Poke from scratch), I honestly think it's not that bad. My Slowpoke unevolved still swept Pryce lol. C is the absolute highest it should go. The reason I say C is because it was consistently useful in the League with its resistances and generally contributed there. But it's still the Slowpoke family, and you already know how much that isn't efficient. D isn't unreasonable but I think it's kind of overkill, personally.
Tentacruel is B tier. Honestly don't have much to say on this. It's decently versatile (Barrier helps endgame) and has a good STAB combo, but there are plenty of battles it doesn't run over in the Pokemon League and that holds it back, despite taking Clair's Kingdra fine. Also, Slow growth rate sucks, and coming post-Morty isn't really desirable for an A tier (I cite Magmar and Miltank - both are As and come pre-Morty, roughly halfway through the game). A tiers that late need some unparalled dominance near constantly, and Tentacool / Cruel simply doesn't do that once you hit the Pokemon League. Check the logs if need be.
Jynx's tier depends on how much you weigh the late availability. There's no denying it performs from the moment you get it but it is really late, and that can easily sway me in favor of C. On the other hand, it really does matter in the battles it is around for aside from Bruno and maybe Karen (though it gets two KOs there). Borderline B / C, it really comes down to how much you think good Clair and Lance matchups weigh in this game. Check the logs for more information, there's not much else to say.
Last edited:
Are there any mons that need additional testing?
While I said I have nothing else to test, I realized that Rattata was put in C-tier because of a preliminary run I did and decided to retest it. The tl;dr is that I greatly undersold it back then, for which I apologize
First, here are the logs
so here's a summary of its performance - it is all-around a great Pokemon. Outside of maybe Clair, Raticate performs well in all Gyms, notably sweeping Whitney *effortlessly* (four Headbutts have something like 76% chance of flinching it at least once, not considering that Rollout can miss). Yes, other Pokemon can do it with Rollout, but having something do it without relying on significant luck / thought is fairly good. Its Elite Four performance was okay-ish; it didn't sweep anything, but it took out a few Pokemon per team (e.g. Karen's Houndoom and Murkrow and Bruno's Hitmons).
I would place this as low as B-tier with an argument for A-tier. Sentret might be a bit better cause of Rollout against Lance and HM utiltiy (if you decide not to invest too much into an attacking Furret), though whether they are the same tier or not isn't too important to me.
First, here are the logs
Falkner(13): Quick Attack 2HKOes Pidgey and 3HKOes Pidgeotto. I tested with QA to assume lower level, but if you are level 13, you can safely use Hyper Fang here
Bugsy(17): PB Swift 2HKOes the cacoons (Harden doesn't change the KO). Scyther is faster even if you weren't hit by String Shot and 3HKOes with Fury Cutter. However, two Hyper Fangs put Scyther in range for Quick Attack, so you have to rely a bit on HFang hitting. Decent
Silver(18): avoid Gastly. Zubat dies to Hyper Fang (Swift doesn't OHKO) and 3HKOes Bayleef (Swift can pick up the KO). Bayleef seems to 2-3HKO with Razor Leaf, though it might derp and go for Poisonpowder
Whitney(21): PB Headbutt 2HKOes Clefairy and 3-4HKOes Miltank, depending on rolls. You are faster and Miltank generally needs four Rollouts to KO you unless Clefairy dealt significant damage to Raticate. Furthermore, Headbutt has a 76% chance to flinch at least once within four hits, so this is a great matchup
Morty(25/26): outspeeds eveything. Dig 2HKOes Gengar and OHKOes the rest. Lv. 23 Haunter was faced at level 26, not sure if that influenced rolls or not
Chuck(30): PB Return (82 BP) 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Dynamic Punch kills you
Jasmine(31): Dig OHKOes Magnemite. Nope against Steelix
Pryce(32): PB Return OHKOes Seel and 2HKOes the rest. Blizzard seems to 2HKO after Aurora Beam, though Piloswine tends to go for Mist turn one (+ you outspeed anyways)
Silver(34/35): Dig OHKOes Magnemite and almost OHKOes Haunter. PB Return 2HKOes the rest. Meganium came out last and I was level 35, so that might have influenced the rolls. Decent anyways
Clair(38): results are similar at level 39. PB Return 2HKOes Dragonair and 3HKOes Kingdra. It is possible to 1v1 Kingdra if it goes for Smokescreen turn one and you avoid healing range, but otherwise, it beats you. Dragonair's special moves seem to 4HKO Raticate, so you are likely taking out two at best
Silver(40/41): PB Return OHKOes Sneasel and Kadabra and 2HKOes Golbat. Dig OHKOes Magneton and Haunter Meganium at level 41 is 2HKOed by Return (idek if level 40 misses the 2HKO; Super Fang might help in this case)
Will(42): PB Return 2HKOes Xatu and OHKOes Jynx. Xatu's Psychic is a 3HKO. Avoid Exeggutor and Slowbro, which avoid a 2HKO
Koga(42/43): PB Return 2HKOes everything but Forry. Crobat is faster, but deals something like 30 out of 119 HP, so not threatening unless it gets annoying with DTeam and you are low on HP. Muk also 2HKOes with Sludge Bomb and can go for Acid Armor or Minimize. Raticate became level 43 after beating Ariados
Bruno(43/44): PB Return OHKOes Lee and 2HKOes the other Hitmons. Hitmontop can be trolled with Dig when it goes for Dig to avoid damage. Lee is slower and Chan's Mach Punch is a 3HKO. Avoid the rest, as you will be too damaged. Raticate became level 44 after beating Lee
Karen(44): PB Return OHKOes Murkrow, 3HKOes Umbreon, and 2HKOes the rest (bar Gengar). Umbreon gets out of control very quickly, though, and Vileplume paralyzes you. Houndoom is slower, though it 2HKOes with Flamethrower. Gengar is 2HKOed by Dig, but Curse might impact your sweeping potental later on
Lance(45): PB Return 2HKOes Gyara and Zard while outspeeding, with Gyara giving you a free turn. The 2HKOes were rather flat, so at lower levels, you will most likely miss them. Avoid the rest, which aren't 2HKOed and can pmuch paralyze you and/or kill you on the spot
Bugsy(17): PB Swift 2HKOes the cacoons (Harden doesn't change the KO). Scyther is faster even if you weren't hit by String Shot and 3HKOes with Fury Cutter. However, two Hyper Fangs put Scyther in range for Quick Attack, so you have to rely a bit on HFang hitting. Decent
Silver(18): avoid Gastly. Zubat dies to Hyper Fang (Swift doesn't OHKO) and 3HKOes Bayleef (Swift can pick up the KO). Bayleef seems to 2-3HKO with Razor Leaf, though it might derp and go for Poisonpowder
Whitney(21): PB Headbutt 2HKOes Clefairy and 3-4HKOes Miltank, depending on rolls. You are faster and Miltank generally needs four Rollouts to KO you unless Clefairy dealt significant damage to Raticate. Furthermore, Headbutt has a 76% chance to flinch at least once within four hits, so this is a great matchup
Morty(25/26): outspeeds eveything. Dig 2HKOes Gengar and OHKOes the rest. Lv. 23 Haunter was faced at level 26, not sure if that influenced rolls or not
Chuck(30): PB Return (82 BP) 2HKOes Primeape and 3HKOes Poliwrath. Dynamic Punch kills you
Jasmine(31): Dig OHKOes Magnemite. Nope against Steelix
Pryce(32): PB Return OHKOes Seel and 2HKOes the rest. Blizzard seems to 2HKO after Aurora Beam, though Piloswine tends to go for Mist turn one (+ you outspeed anyways)
Silver(34/35): Dig OHKOes Magnemite and almost OHKOes Haunter. PB Return 2HKOes the rest. Meganium came out last and I was level 35, so that might have influenced the rolls. Decent anyways
Clair(38): results are similar at level 39. PB Return 2HKOes Dragonair and 3HKOes Kingdra. It is possible to 1v1 Kingdra if it goes for Smokescreen turn one and you avoid healing range, but otherwise, it beats you. Dragonair's special moves seem to 4HKO Raticate, so you are likely taking out two at best
Silver(40/41): PB Return OHKOes Sneasel and Kadabra and 2HKOes Golbat. Dig OHKOes Magneton and Haunter Meganium at level 41 is 2HKOed by Return (idek if level 40 misses the 2HKO; Super Fang might help in this case)
Will(42): PB Return 2HKOes Xatu and OHKOes Jynx. Xatu's Psychic is a 3HKO. Avoid Exeggutor and Slowbro, which avoid a 2HKO
Koga(42/43): PB Return 2HKOes everything but Forry. Crobat is faster, but deals something like 30 out of 119 HP, so not threatening unless it gets annoying with DTeam and you are low on HP. Muk also 2HKOes with Sludge Bomb and can go for Acid Armor or Minimize. Raticate became level 43 after beating Ariados
Bruno(43/44): PB Return OHKOes Lee and 2HKOes the other Hitmons. Hitmontop can be trolled with Dig when it goes for Dig to avoid damage. Lee is slower and Chan's Mach Punch is a 3HKO. Avoid the rest, as you will be too damaged. Raticate became level 44 after beating Lee
Karen(44): PB Return OHKOes Murkrow, 3HKOes Umbreon, and 2HKOes the rest (bar Gengar). Umbreon gets out of control very quickly, though, and Vileplume paralyzes you. Houndoom is slower, though it 2HKOes with Flamethrower. Gengar is 2HKOed by Dig, but Curse might impact your sweeping potental later on
Lance(45): PB Return 2HKOes Gyara and Zard while outspeeding, with Gyara giving you a free turn. The 2HKOes were rather flat, so at lower levels, you will most likely miss them. Avoid the rest, which aren't 2HKOed and can pmuch paralyze you and/or kill you on the spot
so here's a summary of its performance - it is all-around a great Pokemon. Outside of maybe Clair, Raticate performs well in all Gyms, notably sweeping Whitney *effortlessly* (four Headbutts have something like 76% chance of flinching it at least once, not considering that Rollout can miss). Yes, other Pokemon can do it with Rollout, but having something do it without relying on significant luck / thought is fairly good. Its Elite Four performance was okay-ish; it didn't sweep anything, but it took out a few Pokemon per team (e.g. Karen's Houndoom and Murkrow and Bruno's Hitmons).
I would place this as low as B-tier with an argument for A-tier. Sentret might be a bit better cause of Rollout against Lance and HM utiltiy (if you decide not to invest too much into an attacking Furret), though whether they are the same tier or not isn't too important to me.
Not the OP, but Jynx and Graveler/Golem probs would be good. Doesn't matter if it's Graveler or Golem, both perform very similarly, so would likely end up in the same tier
Last edited:
Okay, so I don't usually condone crapposting jokes too much in a thread like this, since this is a semi-professional project, but this comment is honestly 100% true and with the person in question's permission, I am going to post this hilarious screenshot. I'm not saying I want the thread to devolve into riffing on the games too much, but this comment is just so hilarious, I thought it would create a good laugh for anybody who reads tier lists. I give The Mind Electric full credit for the comment / screenshot:
Gloriously accurate.
Gloriously accurate.
Normal-type is truly king in this game. Just for fun, I calculated how strong certain Normal-type TMs are in this game, accounting for badge boosts and Pink Bow, as well as notable moves that would be comparable to them from future generations. Initial means only the Falkner badge boost is accounted for, while final accounts for both badge boosts and the Pink Bow. Yes, this is all before accounting for STAB.
Swift -> 67 (initial; Comparable: Aerial Ace; 83 (final); Comparable: Dragon Claw
Headbutt -> 78 (initial), Comparable: Rock Slide; 97 (final), Comparable: Flamethrower
Strength -> 118 (final), Comparable: Fire Blast
Return -> 142 (final); Comparable: Draco Meteor (!!!)
Hyper Beam -> 208 (final); Comparable: Selfdestruct (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
And that is why even Raticate and Furretress seem inordinately powerful.
Also really benefits Arcanine, Gyarados, Scyther, and others who lack their physical STABs, at least before the endgame.
Swift -> 67 (initial; Comparable: Aerial Ace; 83 (final); Comparable: Dragon Claw
Headbutt -> 78 (initial), Comparable: Rock Slide; 97 (final), Comparable: Flamethrower
Strength -> 118 (final), Comparable: Fire Blast
Return -> 142 (final); Comparable: Draco Meteor (!!!)
Hyper Beam -> 208 (final); Comparable: Selfdestruct (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
And that is why even Raticate and Furretress seem inordinately powerful.
Also really benefits Arcanine, Gyarados, Scyther, and others who lack their physical STABs, at least before the endgame.
Last edited:
Sorry for the double post, but I have test results! As I earlier mentioned, I began testing Totodile.
Current verdict: Was really impressed by Totodile earlier in the game, but from the Rival onwards as Croconaw takes a serious hit. Their lack of speed, bulk, and power really start to show from Whitney onwards, causing them to be status bait and take damage more often while failing to KO fully evolved Mons or Mons with comparable bulk even with SE moves. Feraligatr is quite a bit better and can more or less reliably beat Chuck and Jasmine, even destroying the latter. However, Totodile really wants Dig and Fury Cutter, and the first TM has a lot of competition. Their Special Attack is not exactly bad but more disappointing; it will generally get the job done, but sometimes just falls short in embarrassing or risky ways.
I can see the current A ranking, feels like a B to me at worst (though I feel that is a tad too harsh).
Falkner: S
Level: 10 (11 after beating Pidgey)
Log: Spammed Rage x3 until Pidgey fell and x2 for Pidgeotto. No items necessary, ez ez.
Bugsy: S
Level: 16 (17 after beating Metapod)
Log: Rage spam once again. Metapod actually Tackles you pretty often (and Kakuna went for one Poison Sting at least on two runs) so building up Rage is pretty easy. Scyther caved to Rage x2, failing to do more than bring Totodile to the yellow with Quick Attack x2 or Fury Cutter x2. No items.
Rival 2: D (with Fury Cutter)
Level: 18
Log: Pretty bad fight tbh, but winnable...only if you have Fury Cutter. Water Gun 2HKOes Gastly but Gastly and I speed-tied. Bayleef often tries to start with Poison Powder or Reflect and did so on two runs; however, Bayleef also OHKOed on me two runs with one critical Razor Leaf. I did beat Bayleef on one try by setting up Fury Cutter for three hits, thanks to them trying to start with Reflect, missing one Razor Leaf, and landing a non-crit one eventually; Zubat falls easily to 2-3 Water Guns. Healing support (Parlyz Heal) was necessary on 3rd try thanks to Lick.
Whitney: B (with Fury Cutter)
Level: 20.
Log: Surprisingly brutal fight tbh, and Rage spam failed me on three different tries; the damage accumulated from Clefairy, coupled with Miltank Rollout/Stomp, killed me each time. Things went better with Fury Cutter, but not by much - the first try went smoothly, but the second try Miltank flinched me and killed me with two Stomps after Clefairy already brought me to yellow. The third try, Clefairy killed me with Metronome -> Dragon Rage when I had less than 40 HP remaining and was setting up Fury Cutter. Fourth try (yes, a fourth), I won again with Fury Cutter spam; crazily enough, Croconaw amazingly kept going through a Metronome -> Thunder Wave AND a Stomp without paraflinch and critted Miltank with FC.
I feel a Gold Berry could have saved the matchup and brought it to a B. You can obtain it for essentially 200 coins and have Croconaw wear it; trying to use Potions will be counterproductive as that prevents setting up Rage or Fury Cutter. Clefairy is also an annoying RNG machine.
Rival 3: B
Level: 23 (24 after beating Magnemite).
Log: Haunter outpaced and Cursed Croconaw each time only to die to Surf; Magnemite got OHKOed by Dig (but does live a Surf), and Bayleef...is interesting. If Bayleef uses stuff like Poison Powder - which he also missed twice on my second try - Ice Punch can 3HKO reliably for the win as you can take a non-crit Razor Leaf (a crit kills you, however; and you want to switch to a teammate ASAP so you can dispel Curse and heal Croconaw). I lost on my first try due to Poison Powder, Curse, and Razor Leaf damage all accumulating though. Zubat dies to Ice Punch easily enough.
Not too bad, but needs some team/item support and Dig.
Morty: B
Level: 25.
Log: Failed in all three non-Dig tries; Curse, combined with the superior speed of the non-Gastly Ghosts (Gastly had a speed tie, my Croconaw has a bad Speed IV) and Shadow Ball/Mean Look/Hypnosis shenanigans killed me each time. Things improved after I taught Dig and equipped a Mint Berry for sleep. Surf 3HKOes Gengar, OHKOes Gastly, and 2HKOes both Haunters (and OHKO after Curse on 1st Haunter). Dig one-shots the first two Ghosts but not the final Haunter or Gengar, both of whom are 2HKOed (Gengar actually was 3HKOed at one point IIRC). Overall, winnable, but you need to cast aside a good TM move to improve your odds sufficiently. SE Bite is weaker than Surf and SE Dig btw.
Chuck: B
Level: 30 (31 after beating Primeape).
Log: Overall, not bad. Strength reliably 2HKOes Primeape (as does Surf), whom you outspeed and tank and whose biggest threat is really Leering you. Pink Bow Strength also reliably 3HKOes Poliwrath who has a propensity for starting with Mind Reader and missing as many as 3 Dynamicpunches on one occasion (interestingly, Wrath missed a Hypnosis after using Mind Reader). Feraligatr can eat at least one Dynamicpunch reliably. A Leer + crit Dynamicpunch will kill Feraligatr and confusion can be annoying, though in my case I powered through it or sleep every time it landed while Wrath struggled to land a hit. Solid matchup mostly but switch out if Leered and consider wearing a Mint Berry or Bitter Berry.
Jasmine: A
Level: 31 (32 after beating Magnemite x2).
Log: Magnemites are 2-1HKOed by Surf and outsped, but in return reliably 2HKO you too. Not having Dig here can be a real difference between victory and defeat, as that OHKOes Magnemite (but does peanuts to Steelix). Steelix cannot even 2HKO with Iron Tail barring Defense drops or crits or both and its lack of accuracy helps there, and is taken out by 4 Surfs even if they manage to cast Sun if you account for the Hyper Potion.
Level: 10 (11 after beating Pidgey)
Log: Spammed Rage x3 until Pidgey fell and x2 for Pidgeotto. No items necessary, ez ez.
Bugsy: S
Level: 16 (17 after beating Metapod)
Log: Rage spam once again. Metapod actually Tackles you pretty often (and Kakuna went for one Poison Sting at least on two runs) so building up Rage is pretty easy. Scyther caved to Rage x2, failing to do more than bring Totodile to the yellow with Quick Attack x2 or Fury Cutter x2. No items.
Rival 2: D (with Fury Cutter)
Level: 18
Log: Pretty bad fight tbh, but winnable...only if you have Fury Cutter. Water Gun 2HKOes Gastly but Gastly and I speed-tied. Bayleef often tries to start with Poison Powder or Reflect and did so on two runs; however, Bayleef also OHKOed on me two runs with one critical Razor Leaf. I did beat Bayleef on one try by setting up Fury Cutter for three hits, thanks to them trying to start with Reflect, missing one Razor Leaf, and landing a non-crit one eventually; Zubat falls easily to 2-3 Water Guns. Healing support (Parlyz Heal) was necessary on 3rd try thanks to Lick.
Whitney: B (with Fury Cutter)
Level: 20.
Log: Surprisingly brutal fight tbh, and Rage spam failed me on three different tries; the damage accumulated from Clefairy, coupled with Miltank Rollout/Stomp, killed me each time. Things went better with Fury Cutter, but not by much - the first try went smoothly, but the second try Miltank flinched me and killed me with two Stomps after Clefairy already brought me to yellow. The third try, Clefairy killed me with Metronome -> Dragon Rage when I had less than 40 HP remaining and was setting up Fury Cutter. Fourth try (yes, a fourth), I won again with Fury Cutter spam; crazily enough, Croconaw amazingly kept going through a Metronome -> Thunder Wave AND a Stomp without paraflinch and critted Miltank with FC.
I feel a Gold Berry could have saved the matchup and brought it to a B. You can obtain it for essentially 200 coins and have Croconaw wear it; trying to use Potions will be counterproductive as that prevents setting up Rage or Fury Cutter. Clefairy is also an annoying RNG machine.
Rival 3: B
Level: 23 (24 after beating Magnemite).
Log: Haunter outpaced and Cursed Croconaw each time only to die to Surf; Magnemite got OHKOed by Dig (but does live a Surf), and Bayleef...is interesting. If Bayleef uses stuff like Poison Powder - which he also missed twice on my second try - Ice Punch can 3HKO reliably for the win as you can take a non-crit Razor Leaf (a crit kills you, however; and you want to switch to a teammate ASAP so you can dispel Curse and heal Croconaw). I lost on my first try due to Poison Powder, Curse, and Razor Leaf damage all accumulating though. Zubat dies to Ice Punch easily enough.
Not too bad, but needs some team/item support and Dig.
Morty: B
Level: 25.
Log: Failed in all three non-Dig tries; Curse, combined with the superior speed of the non-Gastly Ghosts (Gastly had a speed tie, my Croconaw has a bad Speed IV) and Shadow Ball/Mean Look/Hypnosis shenanigans killed me each time. Things improved after I taught Dig and equipped a Mint Berry for sleep. Surf 3HKOes Gengar, OHKOes Gastly, and 2HKOes both Haunters (and OHKO after Curse on 1st Haunter). Dig one-shots the first two Ghosts but not the final Haunter or Gengar, both of whom are 2HKOed (Gengar actually was 3HKOed at one point IIRC). Overall, winnable, but you need to cast aside a good TM move to improve your odds sufficiently. SE Bite is weaker than Surf and SE Dig btw.
Chuck: B
Level: 30 (31 after beating Primeape).
Log: Overall, not bad. Strength reliably 2HKOes Primeape (as does Surf), whom you outspeed and tank and whose biggest threat is really Leering you. Pink Bow Strength also reliably 3HKOes Poliwrath who has a propensity for starting with Mind Reader and missing as many as 3 Dynamicpunches on one occasion (interestingly, Wrath missed a Hypnosis after using Mind Reader). Feraligatr can eat at least one Dynamicpunch reliably. A Leer + crit Dynamicpunch will kill Feraligatr and confusion can be annoying, though in my case I powered through it or sleep every time it landed while Wrath struggled to land a hit. Solid matchup mostly but switch out if Leered and consider wearing a Mint Berry or Bitter Berry.
Jasmine: A
Level: 31 (32 after beating Magnemite x2).
Log: Magnemites are 2-1HKOed by Surf and outsped, but in return reliably 2HKO you too. Not having Dig here can be a real difference between victory and defeat, as that OHKOes Magnemite (but does peanuts to Steelix). Steelix cannot even 2HKO with Iron Tail barring Defense drops or crits or both and its lack of accuracy helps there, and is taken out by 4 Surfs even if they manage to cast Sun if you account for the Hyper Potion.
Current verdict: Was really impressed by Totodile earlier in the game, but from the Rival onwards as Croconaw takes a serious hit. Their lack of speed, bulk, and power really start to show from Whitney onwards, causing them to be status bait and take damage more often while failing to KO fully evolved Mons or Mons with comparable bulk even with SE moves. Feraligatr is quite a bit better and can more or less reliably beat Chuck and Jasmine, even destroying the latter. However, Totodile really wants Dig and Fury Cutter, and the first TM has a lot of competition. Their Special Attack is not exactly bad but more disappointing; it will generally get the job done, but sometimes just falls short in embarrassing or risky ways.
I can see the current A ranking, feels like a B to me at worst (though I feel that is a tad too harsh).
Last edited: