Does anything besides Gengar need testing in Crystal?
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GSC In-Game Tier List Mark V
- Thread starter Turdterra
- Start date
- Slowbro could use another run, it has no clear consensus yet (1 nomination for D, C/D, and C each).
I am also currently doing a Silver run with one but another opinion would be nice. - Same with Flareon (has 1 Nomination for C, C/D and D each).
- Tentacool is also a bit up in the air (currently has 2-tier B and 3 C-tier nominations).
- Exeggcute is currently tied (2 nomination for C tier and 2 nomination for D Tier).
I am soon finishing a Silver run with Slowbro, Seaking, Octillery and Lugia as well.
So test is done. Before I post the logs, I want to talk about the A and B discourse. I can see why most think B. The beginning of it is pretty bad. It takes til 21 for it to do anything notable. However, I am also seeing people overhype the amount of Trainers with Normal Types on their team. If we bar Whitney, that's 5 NPCs. Five. That's...not a very strong point to make honestly. I have never been one to really weigh a Pokemon on its ability to Route Clear because any Pokemon is capable of that just about. But that's...kinda where the B feeling ends? Around Whitney, you can easily get a Gengar if you only have Gastly and a Starter. Is it advised? No. You are 5 over. But I ended up 4 over because I got my third member right by Whitney. Doesn't really change the MU at all either so it's a fairly moot point. During my tests, once Gengar was acquired it decimated the game. There were only very few fights it was stopped in. Those were in the League and Clair. That's it. 3 fights as Gengar and it couldn't sweep through. That's....a pretty good sign of being an S tier. However, due to the pretty bad early game, it gets put in A Tier.
To the logs:
So in all, I nominate Gastly (Trade) to A tier. It's very hard to say this is B with those MUs. Obviously levels are high. My teams levels were around 2-3 under Gengar going into the League so about average for Johto. If you want the levels throughout the test, I will post them of course.
To the logs:
Falkner:
Gastly (13): Hypnosis support. All it can do. Legit F Tier if we had it.
Bugsy:
Gastly (18): 6-7HKOs Metapod with Lick. Granted if it gets a few Hardens, this range increases. Kakuna is 5HKO after 1 Harden use. Most likely a 4HKO without. Using Hypnosis first and then Curse, Scyther slowly goes down. 3 Licks on top and you sweep. C/B tier here.
(I forgot to get logs of Rival 2, but it is pretty much the same experience everyone else has had.)
Whitney:
Gastly (24): beats Miltank with Hypnosis + Curse. Obviously you cannot sweep here since you need HP for both. You can use a Super Potion to offset the HP loss on Clefairy and just do the same thing
Rival 3:
Gengar (25) just...nukes everything. Thunderpunch OHKOs Zubat, Fire Punch OHKOs Bayleef, Magnemite, Haunter. If I forgot someone, they just got OHKO'd.
Morty:
Gengar (27): Using Charcoal and Fire Punch you OHKO Gastly and 2HKO then Haunters. Being 28, I believe you OHKO the lower Gastly. You will need to Hypnosis his Gengar and 3HKO with Fire Punch. Solid A Tier Performance here. Relying on Hypnosis for him is what brings it a bit down for me.
Chuck:
Gengar (29): Holding Magnet and using TPunch you 2HKO both Pokemon. You'll take a Surf due to Wrath's bulk to not even half but close. S Tier Performance
Jasmine:
Gengar (30): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs both Magnemites and 2HKOs Steelix. You can take one Iron Tail. S Tier Performance again.
Pryce:
Gengar (33): Fire Punch and Thunderpunch. Tpunch OHKOs Seel, 2HKOs Dewgong, and Charcoal boosted Fire Punch OHKOs Piloswine. I originally used Magnet TPunch for Dewgong but the range was the same, while unboosted FPunch left Pilo alive. Charcoal ensures the KO however. Another S Tier performance.
Rival (Underground):
Gengar (34): I would say get a Bitter Berry for Golbat's Confuse Ray. TPunch 2HKOs it regardless. Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel and Magnemite. SBall OHKOs Haunter, and Fire Punch 2HKOs Meganium. S Tier once more
Clair:
Gengar (37): NMI Ice Punch is a OHKO on all Nairs. You do lose to Kingdra if you do not carry Hypnosis. Even then, it's a slugfest if you do not get a Sp. Def drop from SBall, if you do, Ice Punch is a 3HKO. Be careful of the Full Heal she uses though after Hyper Potion. A Tier performance due to Kingdra eseentially walling you.
Rival (VR):
Gengar (41): You just OHKO everything with Charcoal Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Shadow Ball. The only mon who isn't OHKO'd is Meganium who requires 2 Fire Punches. S Tier.
Will:
Gengar (42): NMI Ice Punch OHKOs Xatu 1 and Eggs. Eggs is a range however. It will OHKO back with Psychic. At level 43, this seems to not be an issue though. Jynx is OHKO'd with SBall. TPunch is a 2HKO on Slowbro. You can barely take one Psychic. NMI Ice Punch OHKOs Xatu 2. Basically, it sweeps here if you are level 43. 42 you can but requires a high roll on Eggs. I would say S tier here. You have Candy access to get to 43 at the least.
Koga:
Gengar (43. Levels to 44 in fight): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs both Forretress and Ariados. Venomoth is a range in which it will derp and try Supersonic or nail you hard with Psychic. It 2HKOs with Psychic. You 4HKO Muk with Charcoal Fire Punch while it hits you with Sludge Bomb. Not an issue. You 2HKO Crobat and outspeed with TPunch. It sweeps here too
Bruno:
Gengar (44 to 45 via in fight XP): You take out Top, Lee, and Onix and that's it. Top is 3HKO with really any move you have while Dig is a 3HKO back on you. Onix is OHKO'd by Ice Punch and Lee is 2HKO'd with SBall. Interesting to note here that at 45, you 2HKO Chan as well if you can get there. Machamp just has too much bulk for Gengar to deal with and it's been Foresighted so it will just use Cross Chop which is a 2-3HKO on you. I would say B Tier for this MU. Could say A but I would like to take out 4 Mons for an A tier for sure.
Karen:
Gengar (45): Gengar OHKOs Murkrow with NMI Ice Punch and Gengar with SBall. 2HKOs Vileplume with Ice Punch though could be a range. Doom and Umbreon wall you. B Tier
Lance:
Gengar (46-47): Ice Punch OHKOs 3 Nites and 1 Aero. At 46, Ice Punch NMI is a range to OHKO but at 47 it isn't. Zard is 2HKO's by TPunch and you OHKO Gyarados with TPunch. S/A Tier here
Gastly (13): Hypnosis support. All it can do. Legit F Tier if we had it.
Bugsy:
Gastly (18): 6-7HKOs Metapod with Lick. Granted if it gets a few Hardens, this range increases. Kakuna is 5HKO after 1 Harden use. Most likely a 4HKO without. Using Hypnosis first and then Curse, Scyther slowly goes down. 3 Licks on top and you sweep. C/B tier here.
(I forgot to get logs of Rival 2, but it is pretty much the same experience everyone else has had.)
Whitney:
Gastly (24): beats Miltank with Hypnosis + Curse. Obviously you cannot sweep here since you need HP for both. You can use a Super Potion to offset the HP loss on Clefairy and just do the same thing
Rival 3:
Gengar (25) just...nukes everything. Thunderpunch OHKOs Zubat, Fire Punch OHKOs Bayleef, Magnemite, Haunter. If I forgot someone, they just got OHKO'd.
Morty:
Gengar (27): Using Charcoal and Fire Punch you OHKO Gastly and 2HKO then Haunters. Being 28, I believe you OHKO the lower Gastly. You will need to Hypnosis his Gengar and 3HKO with Fire Punch. Solid A Tier Performance here. Relying on Hypnosis for him is what brings it a bit down for me.
Chuck:
Gengar (29): Holding Magnet and using TPunch you 2HKO both Pokemon. You'll take a Surf due to Wrath's bulk to not even half but close. S Tier Performance
Jasmine:
Gengar (30): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs both Magnemites and 2HKOs Steelix. You can take one Iron Tail. S Tier Performance again.
Pryce:
Gengar (33): Fire Punch and Thunderpunch. Tpunch OHKOs Seel, 2HKOs Dewgong, and Charcoal boosted Fire Punch OHKOs Piloswine. I originally used Magnet TPunch for Dewgong but the range was the same, while unboosted FPunch left Pilo alive. Charcoal ensures the KO however. Another S Tier performance.
Rival (Underground):
Gengar (34): I would say get a Bitter Berry for Golbat's Confuse Ray. TPunch 2HKOs it regardless. Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel and Magnemite. SBall OHKOs Haunter, and Fire Punch 2HKOs Meganium. S Tier once more
Clair:
Gengar (37): NMI Ice Punch is a OHKO on all Nairs. You do lose to Kingdra if you do not carry Hypnosis. Even then, it's a slugfest if you do not get a Sp. Def drop from SBall, if you do, Ice Punch is a 3HKO. Be careful of the Full Heal she uses though after Hyper Potion. A Tier performance due to Kingdra eseentially walling you.
Rival (VR):
Gengar (41): You just OHKO everything with Charcoal Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Shadow Ball. The only mon who isn't OHKO'd is Meganium who requires 2 Fire Punches. S Tier.
Will:
Gengar (42): NMI Ice Punch OHKOs Xatu 1 and Eggs. Eggs is a range however. It will OHKO back with Psychic. At level 43, this seems to not be an issue though. Jynx is OHKO'd with SBall. TPunch is a 2HKO on Slowbro. You can barely take one Psychic. NMI Ice Punch OHKOs Xatu 2. Basically, it sweeps here if you are level 43. 42 you can but requires a high roll on Eggs. I would say S tier here. You have Candy access to get to 43 at the least.
Koga:
Gengar (43. Levels to 44 in fight): Charcoal Fire Punch OHKOs both Forretress and Ariados. Venomoth is a range in which it will derp and try Supersonic or nail you hard with Psychic. It 2HKOs with Psychic. You 4HKO Muk with Charcoal Fire Punch while it hits you with Sludge Bomb. Not an issue. You 2HKO Crobat and outspeed with TPunch. It sweeps here too
Bruno:
Gengar (44 to 45 via in fight XP): You take out Top, Lee, and Onix and that's it. Top is 3HKO with really any move you have while Dig is a 3HKO back on you. Onix is OHKO'd by Ice Punch and Lee is 2HKO'd with SBall. Interesting to note here that at 45, you 2HKO Chan as well if you can get there. Machamp just has too much bulk for Gengar to deal with and it's been Foresighted so it will just use Cross Chop which is a 2-3HKO on you. I would say B Tier for this MU. Could say A but I would like to take out 4 Mons for an A tier for sure.
Karen:
Gengar (45): Gengar OHKOs Murkrow with NMI Ice Punch and Gengar with SBall. 2HKOs Vileplume with Ice Punch though could be a range. Doom and Umbreon wall you. B Tier
Lance:
Gengar (46-47): Ice Punch OHKOs 3 Nites and 1 Aero. At 46, Ice Punch NMI is a range to OHKO but at 47 it isn't. Zard is 2HKO's by TPunch and you OHKO Gyarados with TPunch. S/A Tier here
So in all, I nominate Gastly (Trade) to A tier. It's very hard to say this is B with those MUs. Obviously levels are high. My teams levels were around 2-3 under Gengar going into the League so about average for Johto. If you want the levels throughout the test, I will post them of course.
Could you go into more detail about raising the Gastly in the early game? You say that route-clearing doesn't really matter because it's something that basically any Pokemon can do, but you neglect to say how well Gastly managed it.
A recurring issue in this discussion is that basically everyone agrees that Gastly (Trade) has outstanding matchups in almost every significant battle besides Falkner, but everyone who supports a higher placement only ever posts the usual log of Gym Leader, Rival, and E4 battles, which doesn't really contribute any information that isn't already the consensus view.
Because route clearing isn’t really that important in the scheme of things? Hence it’s not really mentioned at all in logs at all. Sure we may mention it but it’s not something we tier a Pokemon based on. But if you want to know, it’s literally just click Lick and Hypnosis for the more bulky Pokemon but it’s not required, until you get Night Shade and you hit that instead. A majority of the Pokemon you encounter can’t really hurt you and you have a level advantage over them as well. There are a few trainers like the Goldeen one and the Hikers that take time but they can’t really harm you effectively. I didn’t have really any trouble leveling it on the early game at all and there weren’t many Pokemon Center trips involved while doing so.
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Good lord
I'll take a look at them, maybe not all of them in one go. I do need to check some stuff in Crystal, so I might as well run a test, but I probably won't have time for it before August 15th.
Preliminary opinions
Slowbro: Medium-Fast, Lv. 37 evolution in Johto, 40 SpA, no Confusion until Lv. 20, 15 Speed in a region where all leaders want to employ some kind of hax.
Yeah, D-tier and I'm not looking back.
Flareon: 130 Attack is really good, so it's not like it has no options just because it doesn't have Fire moves. I can see it working well with Strength/Return and Shadow Ball. There was a recent test for it, I'll read that again. Medium-Fast is sad though.
Tentacool: The Slow experience group is a pretty nasty problem to have in this game, but being able to cut to the chase and get an underleveled Tentacruel with Surf is neat. Honestly, this seems like the most splashable mon in this list.
Exeggcute: Hey, Reflect and Leech Seed is pretty great... Where are the offensive moves?
M-Maybe I can breed one with Razor Leaf... *Slow Exp. Group*
Man... No wonder they're left to be tested this late in the tier list.
I'm pretty sure two Slow Exp. Group mons would ensure Gengar won't reach the level thresholds it needs to work... At least we'd be able to put that to rest?
Yeah... Could you please elaborate on that? What was the rest of the team?
Barring the absurd highness of Gastly (which was a whoops on my part, not that it changed the MU other than you outspeed Miltank at Whitney and Morty. Most levels were 2 to 3 under Gengar. I treated Gengar as my “starter” more or less. Levels are reflective of a casual playthrough using 4 Pokemon too.Good lord
I'll take a look at them, maybe not all of them in one go. I do need to check some stuff in Crystal, so I might as well run a test, but I probably won't have time for it before August 15th.
Preliminary opinions
Slowbro: Medium-Fast, Lv. 37 evolution in Johto, 40 SpA, no Confusion until Lv. 20, 15 Speed in a region where all leaders want to employ some kind of hax.
Yeah, D-tier and I'm not looking back.
Flareon: 130 Attack is really good, so it's not like it has no options just because it doesn't have Fire moves. I can see it working well with Strength/Return and Shadow Ball. There was a recent test for it, I'll read that again. Medium-Fast is sad though.
Tentacool: The Slow experience group is a pretty nasty problem to have in this game, but being able to cut to the chase and get an underleveled Tentacruel with Surf is neat. Honestly, this seems like the most splashable mon in this list.
Exeggcute: Hey, Reflect and Leech Seed is pretty great... Where are the offensive moves?
M-Maybe I can breed one with Razor Leaf... *Slow Exp. Group*
View attachment 655947
Man... No wonder they're left to be tested this late in the tier list.
I'm pretty sure two Slow Exp. Group mons would ensure Gengar won't reach the level thresholds it needs to work... At least we'd be able to put that to rest?
Yeah... Could you please elaborate on that? What was the rest of the team?
But for more in depth (on mobile so no fancy spoiler tag insert avail for whatever reason):
Falkner:
Gastly (13)
Totodile (12)
Bugsy:
Gastly (18)
Totodile (16)
Rival 2:
Gastly (18)
Croconaw (18, reset the Bugsy match to give XP to Totodile to evolve)
Whitney:
Gastly (24)
Croconaw (21)
Drowzee (18)
Morty:
Gengar (27, fairly high but you get the same results even at a lower level)
Croconaw (22)
Drowzee (21)
Chuck:
Gengar (29)
Chinchou (23, purposely picked up a Slow XP Pokemon to halt as much level gain as I could if I needed to use Gengar for anything + avoid favoritism for it)
Hypno (28)
Gatr (30)
Jasmine:
Gengar (30)
Chinchou (23)
Hypno (28)
Gatr (30)
Not many fights avail after clearing them out between Chuck and Jasmine. Gengar leveled up in the fight hence the only change in level.
Pryce:
Gengar (33)
Lanturn (28)
Gatr (30)
Hypno (30)
Lanturn ate a lot of XP but it still wasn’t enough to really get it caught up with the rest of the team unless I just 100% focused on it.
Rival Tunnel:
Gengar (34)
Hypno (32)
Lanturn (31)
Gatr (32)
Clair:
Gengar (37)
Gatr (36)
Hypno (36)
Lanturn (34)
Rival VR:
Gengar (41, gets to 42 after hence why I have a 42 at Will)
Gatr (39)
Hypno (39)
Lanturn (38)
After this, I just kept levels on Gengar after E4 matchups, hence why it hit Level 45 at Lance. I used a Candy to test ranges in Aerodactyl so I was 46 there. I used a level 100 Mew (HM User) to clean up Pokemon Gengar couldn’t do anything to. Could I have given it to the other member? Sure, but I wasn’t testing them either.
Also, Slowbro can be caught post Morty and is probably the more advised way to use it. 37 is at Clair otherwise.
the only reason to catch Slowpoke at your earliest convenience is if you are going to evolve it into Slowking and want to use Curse to sweep Bugsy and Whitney (at a fairly slow rate, might I add). Theoritically, I think you could still catch a Curse Slowpoke post-Surf and directly evolve it into a Slowking if you want Curse (which theoritically helps against Lance if you don't mind healing it)
when using Slowbro, you might as well just catch it post-Surf and save yourself the hassle of late evolution level
re: Exeggcute, it's been a long time since I've used it, but yeah, I can attest to the atrocity that are the first levels until Confusion. If you thought Gastly's early-game was bad, then just wait till you see Exeggcute (for real, though, Exeggcute manages to be more painful for 9 levels than Gastly for 15-18 levels).
You could theoritically teach Exeggcute Rollout to *somewhat* circumvent this, but I feel like the early grind will still be painful
when using Slowbro, you might as well just catch it post-Surf and save yourself the hassle of late evolution level
re: Exeggcute, it's been a long time since I've used it, but yeah, I can attest to the atrocity that are the first levels until Confusion. If you thought Gastly's early-game was bad, then just wait till you see Exeggcute (for real, though, Exeggcute manages to be more painful for 9 levels than Gastly for 15-18 levels).
You could theoritically teach Exeggcute Rollout to *somewhat* circumvent this, but I feel like the early grind will still be painful
Finally got around to finish the Silver run with Typhlosion, Fearow (Kenya), Slowpoke (Slowbro), Goldeen, Remoraid and Lugia (Silver).
Doing logs of the Elite Four and Champion is so excruciating and mentally taxing...
Here are my logs for them:
Slowpoke has very weird stats compared to Slowbro, where it has very low special attack and better attack for some reason. It is also super slow and nearly always moves second, even after it evolves. I guess it is in the name but constantly going second is such a bad trait, especially in the hax generation that is gen 2. The Slowbro evolution is also insanly high at level 37. Still, it is not all bad. Water / Psychic is an amazing typing and the coverage of Surf / Confusion / Ice Punch and Strength is really good. It also is available early in Slowpoke Well before the second gym. Curse is also a good setup move for early game that allows it to sweep some otherwise difficult matchups like Bugsy, Whitney and Pryce. Still, its speed becomes more and more of an issue and is the cause for some of its worst matchups.
Slowpoke (Slowbro) had 1 nomination each for C-tier, C/D-tier and D-tier so far. D-tier feels too harsh to be because it does okay overall. But its bad speed does knock it down a tier for me, so I belive C-tier for Slowpoke (Slowbro) is correct.
Goldeen is available as soon as Union Cave but just like Tentacool it is more better to catch a later underleveled Seaking instead to skip its bad early stage. Seaking can be encountered on Route 42 as soon as you get the 5th badge and also at a reasonable level. It is best to catch it in a Friend Ball. The Apricorn for it is on the same route but making the ball requires backtracking to Azalea Town and back. But it is worth it to give Seaking and pretty functional moveset of almost full power Return and Surf immediately. For the point of the game you get this Seaking, it is actually pretty good, which suprised me. I didn't think Seaking would perform as an S- and A-tier for 3 gym. Still, it eventually falls off due to its mediocre stats. Icy Wind and Blizzard are kind of necessary TMs for it as well, so it is pretty TM dependent.
Goldeen has 2 nominations for D-tier and I assume they went with the earliest possible Goldeen instead. But if you go for the later Seaking, I actually think Goldeen makes it into C-tier. The slight backtrack and the required TMs are pulling it down but not enough to be in D-tier imo.
Remoraid is such a shame. It is barely not available in the mid game. You can get to Mahogany Town before clearing the 4th gym. But without having having cleared the first 7 gyms a NPC at the east just won't leave you out of town. At least you can still get Remoraid before you clear out Team Rocket in Goldenrod City, unlike in the remakes, but it still means that it comes very late. It also has similar requirements to stone evolutions, as it is a pure Swarm encounter, which you have to cause through a phone call with a certain NPC on Route 44. At least you have Fly by then, so it isn't backtracking to your house, and the NPC in question only has one response unlike the stone NPCs. You also might trade in the Red Scale at the Prof while you are in your home town because Remoraid is awful and pretty underleveled. You will have to raise it 5 levels with the Exp Share to evolve it because it can't do it on its own. Octilliery is okay. Aurora Beam and Psybeam are cool coverage moves via level-up but due to their low base power, they are only useful against super-effective targets that also resist Water due to how strong STAB Surf is. Octillery has pretty much no highlights left. At best it is okay and at worst it just dies due to its low speed and bulk. It offers little that other early Water types can't do much better.
Remoraid had 2 nominations for D-tier and 1 for E-tier. I honestly think E-tier is more accurate. It comes super late, underleveled at that, requires the DST trick, still has a babysitting stage, is slow and frail, has no good matchups left and is interchangable. So yeah, it is awful. E-tier for Remoraid.
Lugia is very weird. You can go to its encounter location before you clear the 5th and 6th gym. Only Surf and Whirlpool from gym 4 and 7 are needed to get there. But Lugia just straightup won't be there until you receive the Silver Wing from the Goldenrod Radio Tower for defeating Team Rocket. Which means Lugia is only obtainable before the 8th gym. You also won't have the Master Ball until after clearing the final gym. And due to Lugia's incredibly low catch rate and the fact that only the Sleep and Freeze statuses increase the catch rate as well as Lugia having Recover, the best strategy seriously is just to buy like 40 Pokeballs and toss them at a full health Lugia until you get lucky. It is legit a ~1% catch chance, the change in catch rate for other things like the Heavy Ball is so miniscule (~2%), that it is just not worth it. You could easily waste over half an hour doing this. So there is a debate here to just skip it for gym 8 to catch it with the Master Ball, so you only use it for the Pokemon League. Clair is a good matchup for it, though, so that is a shame. While Lugia's offenses are kind of mediocre, it is pretty much unkillable until Karen and Lance. It will sweep most remaining trainers without needing many if any healing items. Still, Karen and Lance are surprisingly difficult for this legendary Pokemon due to its low offenses and lack of useful moves. Aeroblast is a good move but it only has 5PP and coming from Lugia it is not doing that much damage. Dragonbreath is its best move against Lance if you can't come up with the Blizzard TM. Lance being such a tough matchup for it really surprised me.
Lugia has 1 nomination for A-, B- and C-tier each. And despite the fact that it mostly has amazing matchups left, it sucks that the last two are so bad. Of course it is also super late, possibly annoying to get and almost wants at least 1 or 2 TMs. B-tier feels too high for me. Lugia (Silver) should be in C-tier.
I would like to know your stance on these Pokemon.
Doing logs of the Elite Four and Champion is so excruciating and mentally taxing...
Here are my logs for them:
Gym 2: level 15, Slowpoke can freely set up Curses on Metapod and then knock it out, at +5 Slowpoke 2HKOs Scyther with Swift and can take 2 Fury Cutters easily, Kakuna is then also easily knocked out, performance A-tier
Rival 2: level 16, Gastly can only be annoying but it can't do much damage, Water Gun is a 3HKO, Zubat can potentially be rather dangerous with Supersonic and Bite, Swift is a 3HKO, Slowpoke neeeds a Super Potion before it takes on the last Pokemon, Croconaw and Quilava are walled and Slowpoke can take them out with a few Curses and Swifts, Bayleef is a losing matchup however, performance B/C-tier
Gym 3: level 20, Slowpoke can easily set up Curses on Clefairy while its Doule Slaps do absolutely no damage, at +4 Headbutt is an OHKO on Clefairy and a 3HKO on Miltank, Slowpoke can easily tank its Rollouts with its boosted defense, performance S/A-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Confusion is barely not an OHKO on Ghastly, so it will get some Licks off before it goes down, they don't do any damage, though, and the paralysis can actually be helpful as it prevents Slowpoke being put to sleep by Hypnosis later, Haunter will use Curse but dies to Confusion afterwards, its Night Shade is only a 5HKO on Slowpoke, Gengar's Shadow Ball is a 2HKO and Confusion is only a 3HKO, the second Haunter is also 2HKOed by Confusion and its Night Shade is only very slightly stronger, performance B-tier
Rival 3: level 25, Haunter will get a Curse off before it goes down to Confusion, Magnemite does too much damage in combination with Curse, Surf is a 2HKO, though, if you gave Slowpoke the Dig TM, then it could OHKO Magnemite, Zubat is 2HKOed by Confusion but Bite and Confuse Ray can become dangerous, at some point Slowpoke has to switch out and back in to reset Curse, Croconaw does a decent amount of damage with Bite, so Slowpoke has trouble setting up Curses, Headbutt and Confusion are 3+HKOs, if the rival has Quilava the fight gets easier, if he has Bayleef it gets even harder, performance C/D-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Slowpoke's Confusion is barely not able to 2HKO Primeape, it will use Leer and try to get some damage off with Fury Swipes but it won't be too much, Poliwrath is 4HKOed by Confusion and its STAB moves don't do all that much to Slowpoke, a safer strategy for this fight is to set up 3 Curses on Primeape and then sweep with Strength, OHKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath, performance A-tier
Gym 6: level 33, the two Magnemites outspeed and OHKO Slowpoke from full with Thunderbolt, Steelix is somehow faster than Slowpoke and once it sets up Sunny Day, Surf is only a 3HKO while it starts to Screech, Slowpoke should still win this 1v1 at least, performance D-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Pryce's entire team is walled by Slowpoke, it can easily set up 3 Curses on Seel and then sweep his team, Seel is OHKO by +3 Strength, Dewgong is 2HKOed and Piloswine is also 2HKOed, performance S-tier
Rival 4: level 35, Golbat can be annoying with Confuse Ray and Bite, which does a lot of damage, sadly Slowpoke can only 3HKO Golbat with Confusion, Surf or Strength, Magnemite is faster and its Thunder Shock is a 3HKO on Slowpoke, Surf is only a 2HKO, so multiple Hyper Potions are needed, Sneasel's Faint Attack does actually do decent damage for once and Slowpoke's Strength or Surf are only a 3HKO, more healing needed, Feraligatr's Bite does way too much damage while Slowpoke does only 5HKO in return, the matchup is even worse against Meganium and better against Quilava, Haunter's Shadow Ball is a 3HKO on Slowpoke, while its Confusion is a 2HKO on Hautner, performance D-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Slowbro 2HKOs the three Dragonairs with Ice Punch, the Surf and Ice Beam Dragonair can't really damage Slowbro much but Thunderbolt is doing around 35-40%, 1 Hyper Potion will be needed for the Dragonairs and 1 Full Restore before taking on Kingdra, its Dragon Breath does 30%, sadly Slowbro can only 5HKO Kingdra with Ice Punch, so more healing is needed for this 1v1, a Curse sweep could also be possible, but it likely needs to set up to +6, performance B/C-tier
Rival 5: level 40, Sneasel's Faint Attack does okay damage and it can also Screech, Surf has a chance to OHKO it with Mystic Water, Magneton does decent damage with Thunder Shock but it is then OHKOed by Surf in return, Golbat can be annoying but it is 2HKOed by any move, Haunter is OHKOed by Surf but it could get decent Shadow Ball damage or a Curse off, Kadabra wastes its turn on Future Sight and is then OHKOed by Surf, Feraligatr's Slash does little damage and Confusion is a 4HKO, 1 Hyper Potion might be needed, though, the matchup against Typhlosion is better and Meganium is largely the same, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 40, Xatu is walled by Slowbro and can only attempt to hax it with Confuse Ray or Psychic special drops, Ice Punch is a clean 2HKO, Exeggutor is faster and can get off a Leech Seed or Reflect but its Psychic is not doing very much, Ice Punch sadly only 2HKOs, even with Never-Melt Ice, the second Xatu is just like the first one, it is walled and Ice Punch or Surf 2HKO, Jynx is also walled but it can put Slowbro to sleep with Lovely Kiss, Surf or Strength 2HKO, Will's Slowbro is the only slower Pokemon but your Slowbro is kind of walled because Strength and Surf aren't doing much while his Slowbro can set up with Amnesia and Curse, you probably win the 1v1 anyway but it does take a while, but if Exeggutor did Leech Seed you, you have to switch out,, 1-3 healing items are likely needed for this fight, being slow just is such a downside, otherwise this would be an easy S-tier fight, performance A-tier
Koga: level 40, Ariados is faster and its Giga Drain does okay damage, Confusion is a 2HKO, Forretress is also faster than Slowbro, Surf is a 2HKO and the first Surf won't knock Forretress low enough to likely use Explosion on the next turn, so all it does is set up Spikes and use Swift once, Venomoth is walled and 2HKOed by Confusion, all it can do is status cheese if it even goes for it, Muk is faster and its Sludge Bomb actually does decent damage, Slowbro probably needs its first Hyper Potion or Full Restore here, Confusion is a 3HKO, Crobat can't do much and is 2HKOed by Never-Melt Ice boosted Ice Punch, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 40, Hitmontop can't do any real damage and is 2HKOed by Mystic Water boosted Surf, same with Hitmonchan, 2HKOed by Surf and its Thunder Punch does little damage, Machamp is only doing around 20-25% with Rock Slide but it can flinch Slowbro, Confusion or Surf 3HKOs it, Hitmonlee is walled and 2HKOed by Surf, Onix doesn't do much with Earthquake and is OHKOed by Surf, performance A-tier
Karen: level 41, Umbreon is faster and barely 3HKOs with Faint Attack, Surf is also a 3HKO with Mystic Water on Umbreon, 1 Full Restore or Hyper Potion might be needed, Murkow has a chance to 2HKO Slowbro with Faint Attack but Ice Punch has a chance to OHKO with Never-Melt Ice, Vileplume outspeeds Slowbro and Petal Dance is a 2HKO, Ice Punch 2HKOs it in return, Gengar's Lick isn't doing much und Surf is a 2HKO, it can attempt to Destiny Bond Slowbro, though, Houndoom outspeeds and OHKOs Slowbro with Crunch, performance D-tier
Lance: level 41, Gyarados's Surf is doing little damage and even Hyper Beam isn't doing too much but Slowbro can only 5HKO it with either Strength or Ice Punch, Thunder from Dragonite is almost an OHKO from full, Ice Punch is not an OHKO on the level 47 Dragonites, even with Never-Melt Ice, Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite is a 2HKO, Ice Punch again only 2HKOs back, Charizard is not doing much with its attacks besides Hyper Beam and Surf 2HKOs, same with Aerodactyl but Surf OHKOs, performance B-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Rival 2: level 16, Gastly can only be annoying but it can't do much damage, Water Gun is a 3HKO, Zubat can potentially be rather dangerous with Supersonic and Bite, Swift is a 3HKO, Slowpoke neeeds a Super Potion before it takes on the last Pokemon, Croconaw and Quilava are walled and Slowpoke can take them out with a few Curses and Swifts, Bayleef is a losing matchup however, performance B/C-tier
Gym 3: level 20, Slowpoke can easily set up Curses on Clefairy while its Doule Slaps do absolutely no damage, at +4 Headbutt is an OHKO on Clefairy and a 3HKO on Miltank, Slowpoke can easily tank its Rollouts with its boosted defense, performance S/A-tier
Gym 4: level 25, Confusion is barely not an OHKO on Ghastly, so it will get some Licks off before it goes down, they don't do any damage, though, and the paralysis can actually be helpful as it prevents Slowpoke being put to sleep by Hypnosis later, Haunter will use Curse but dies to Confusion afterwards, its Night Shade is only a 5HKO on Slowpoke, Gengar's Shadow Ball is a 2HKO and Confusion is only a 3HKO, the second Haunter is also 2HKOed by Confusion and its Night Shade is only very slightly stronger, performance B-tier
Rival 3: level 25, Haunter will get a Curse off before it goes down to Confusion, Magnemite does too much damage in combination with Curse, Surf is a 2HKO, though, if you gave Slowpoke the Dig TM, then it could OHKO Magnemite, Zubat is 2HKOed by Confusion but Bite and Confuse Ray can become dangerous, at some point Slowpoke has to switch out and back in to reset Curse, Croconaw does a decent amount of damage with Bite, so Slowpoke has trouble setting up Curses, Headbutt and Confusion are 3+HKOs, if the rival has Quilava the fight gets easier, if he has Bayleef it gets even harder, performance C/D-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Slowpoke's Confusion is barely not able to 2HKO Primeape, it will use Leer and try to get some damage off with Fury Swipes but it won't be too much, Poliwrath is 4HKOed by Confusion and its STAB moves don't do all that much to Slowpoke, a safer strategy for this fight is to set up 3 Curses on Primeape and then sweep with Strength, OHKOs Primeape and 2HKOs Poliwrath, performance A-tier
Gym 6: level 33, the two Magnemites outspeed and OHKO Slowpoke from full with Thunderbolt, Steelix is somehow faster than Slowpoke and once it sets up Sunny Day, Surf is only a 3HKO while it starts to Screech, Slowpoke should still win this 1v1 at least, performance D-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Pryce's entire team is walled by Slowpoke, it can easily set up 3 Curses on Seel and then sweep his team, Seel is OHKO by +3 Strength, Dewgong is 2HKOed and Piloswine is also 2HKOed, performance S-tier
Rival 4: level 35, Golbat can be annoying with Confuse Ray and Bite, which does a lot of damage, sadly Slowpoke can only 3HKO Golbat with Confusion, Surf or Strength, Magnemite is faster and its Thunder Shock is a 3HKO on Slowpoke, Surf is only a 2HKO, so multiple Hyper Potions are needed, Sneasel's Faint Attack does actually do decent damage for once and Slowpoke's Strength or Surf are only a 3HKO, more healing needed, Feraligatr's Bite does way too much damage while Slowpoke does only 5HKO in return, the matchup is even worse against Meganium and better against Quilava, Haunter's Shadow Ball is a 3HKO on Slowpoke, while its Confusion is a 2HKO on Hautner, performance D-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Slowbro 2HKOs the three Dragonairs with Ice Punch, the Surf and Ice Beam Dragonair can't really damage Slowbro much but Thunderbolt is doing around 35-40%, 1 Hyper Potion will be needed for the Dragonairs and 1 Full Restore before taking on Kingdra, its Dragon Breath does 30%, sadly Slowbro can only 5HKO Kingdra with Ice Punch, so more healing is needed for this 1v1, a Curse sweep could also be possible, but it likely needs to set up to +6, performance B/C-tier
Rival 5: level 40, Sneasel's Faint Attack does okay damage and it can also Screech, Surf has a chance to OHKO it with Mystic Water, Magneton does decent damage with Thunder Shock but it is then OHKOed by Surf in return, Golbat can be annoying but it is 2HKOed by any move, Haunter is OHKOed by Surf but it could get decent Shadow Ball damage or a Curse off, Kadabra wastes its turn on Future Sight and is then OHKOed by Surf, Feraligatr's Slash does little damage and Confusion is a 4HKO, 1 Hyper Potion might be needed, though, the matchup against Typhlosion is better and Meganium is largely the same, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 40, Xatu is walled by Slowbro and can only attempt to hax it with Confuse Ray or Psychic special drops, Ice Punch is a clean 2HKO, Exeggutor is faster and can get off a Leech Seed or Reflect but its Psychic is not doing very much, Ice Punch sadly only 2HKOs, even with Never-Melt Ice, the second Xatu is just like the first one, it is walled and Ice Punch or Surf 2HKO, Jynx is also walled but it can put Slowbro to sleep with Lovely Kiss, Surf or Strength 2HKO, Will's Slowbro is the only slower Pokemon but your Slowbro is kind of walled because Strength and Surf aren't doing much while his Slowbro can set up with Amnesia and Curse, you probably win the 1v1 anyway but it does take a while, but if Exeggutor did Leech Seed you, you have to switch out,, 1-3 healing items are likely needed for this fight, being slow just is such a downside, otherwise this would be an easy S-tier fight, performance A-tier
Koga: level 40, Ariados is faster and its Giga Drain does okay damage, Confusion is a 2HKO, Forretress is also faster than Slowbro, Surf is a 2HKO and the first Surf won't knock Forretress low enough to likely use Explosion on the next turn, so all it does is set up Spikes and use Swift once, Venomoth is walled and 2HKOed by Confusion, all it can do is status cheese if it even goes for it, Muk is faster and its Sludge Bomb actually does decent damage, Slowbro probably needs its first Hyper Potion or Full Restore here, Confusion is a 3HKO, Crobat can't do much and is 2HKOed by Never-Melt Ice boosted Ice Punch, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 40, Hitmontop can't do any real damage and is 2HKOed by Mystic Water boosted Surf, same with Hitmonchan, 2HKOed by Surf and its Thunder Punch does little damage, Machamp is only doing around 20-25% with Rock Slide but it can flinch Slowbro, Confusion or Surf 3HKOs it, Hitmonlee is walled and 2HKOed by Surf, Onix doesn't do much with Earthquake and is OHKOed by Surf, performance A-tier
Karen: level 41, Umbreon is faster and barely 3HKOs with Faint Attack, Surf is also a 3HKO with Mystic Water on Umbreon, 1 Full Restore or Hyper Potion might be needed, Murkow has a chance to 2HKO Slowbro with Faint Attack but Ice Punch has a chance to OHKO with Never-Melt Ice, Vileplume outspeeds Slowbro and Petal Dance is a 2HKO, Ice Punch 2HKOs it in return, Gengar's Lick isn't doing much und Surf is a 2HKO, it can attempt to Destiny Bond Slowbro, though, Houndoom outspeeds and OHKOs Slowbro with Crunch, performance D-tier
Lance: level 41, Gyarados's Surf is doing little damage and even Hyper Beam isn't doing too much but Slowbro can only 5HKO it with either Strength or Ice Punch, Thunder from Dragonite is almost an OHKO from full, Ice Punch is not an OHKO on the level 47 Dragonites, even with Never-Melt Ice, Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite is a 2HKO, Ice Punch again only 2HKOs back, Charizard is not doing much with its attacks besides Hyper Beam and Surf 2HKOs, same with Aerodactyl but Surf OHKOs, performance B-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Rival 3: level 22, Haunter is faster and could get a Curse off before it goes down to a Surf, Magnemite is slower and is 2HKOed by Surf, its Thunder Shock does sting if it decides to go for it, though, Seaking is faster than Zubat but only 2HKOs with either Surf or Return, Zubat can only be annoying, though, Seaking outspeeds Croconaw and 3HKOs it with Return, Croconaw can't really do much in return but with the lingering Curse, Seaking will have to switch out and back in, if the rival has Quilava the fight gets easier and if he has Bayleef the fight gets harder, performance B/C-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape is faster and often goes for Leer, Seaking 2HKOs with Return its Karate Chops can bring Seaking to half before it goes down, Poiwrath is slower and Return is only a 4HKO, Dynamic Punch is a 2HKO but it will constantly go for the raw punch instead of setting it up with Mind Reader, so Seaking has good chances, performance B-tier
Gym 6: level 33, Seaking outspeeds and OHKOs both Magnemites, Surf has a chance to OHKO Steelix, if it lives Surf, it will set up sun and Jasmine heals it up to full with a Hyper Potion, then Surf is a 3HKO, Steelix is also walled by Seaking as none of its attacks do much damage,
performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seaking outspeeds seel and 2HKOs with Return, Seel will only slow Seaking down with Icy Wind, but Seaking is still faster than Seel even at -1, Dewgong is faster after the speedrop, tough, and tries to Headbutt flinch, but it doesn't do much damage, Return is a 3HKO, so Dewgong's Rest is only lengthening the battle, Piloswine is faster than -1 Seaking but it is almost walled and 2 Surfs easily take it out, performance S/A-tier
Rival 4: level 35, Seaking speedties Golbat, Blizzard OHKOs while Return is a 2HKO, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is faster and could get a Curse off (though in my 3 tries it always went for Mean Look), Icy Wind into Surf 2HKOs from full, Sneasel is faster but doesn't really do anything, Return is a 2HKO, Feraligatr is slower and 3HKOed by Return, its Bites don't do much damage, the fight should be about the same if the rival has Meganium and even easier if he has Quilava, performance S/A-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Seaking outspeeds all three Dragonairs but Blizzard is not an OHKO, even with Never-Melt Ice, Return is a 2HKO on all three, the Surf and Ice Beam Dragonair can't do too much damage but Thunderbolt is doing almost half, a Full Restore should be used before knocking out the last Dragonair, Kingdra outspeeds Seaking but Dragon Breath is only around 30% and Return is a 3HKO, if Seaking got low enough HP you can bait Kingdra into Hyper Beam which does exactly half, use a Hyper Potion to take it and then knock out Kingdra on the charge turn without Clair getting a chance to use her Full Restore, performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 39, Sneasel is faster but the most it can do is lower Seaking's defenses with Screech for a later teammate, Return is a 2HKO, Magneton is slower and 2HKOed by Surf, it can paralyse Seaking and Thunder Shock does 35-40%, so a Full Restore is needed here, Golbat is faster and can be annoying, Icy Wind into Blizzard or Return knocks it out, Haunter is faster but its Shadow Ball does do very much, it could get a Curse off, though, Icy Wind into Surf 2HKOs it, Kadabra is faster but wastes its turn on Future Sight, even if it could kill Seaking, Return OHKOs it, Seaking outspeeds Feraligatr and 3HKOs it with Return, Slash isn't doing that much without a crit but another Hyper Potion will be needed to close out this fight, the fight is largely the same if the Rival has Typhlosion or Meganium, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 40, Xatu is faster and Psychic is doing a ton, but Icy Wind into Return is a 2HKO, Exeggutor is slower but its Psychic is even stronger and is doing over half, Blizzard into Return is a 2HKO, Jynx is faster than Seaking and its Psychic 2HKOs, Seaking is too low on HP at this point, so you have to switch out and heal up Seaking, Seaking has a chance to OHKO it with Icy Wind into Return, though, if it carries the Pink Bow, Slowbro is 3HKOed by Return unless it uses Curse, its Psychic is close to a 2HKO on Seaking, the second Xatu is similar to the first one, its Psychic is not a 2HKO yet but Icy Wind into Return is only a chance to OHKO, performance C-tier
Koga: level 40, Seaking is faster and 2HKOes with Pink Bow boosted Return, if Ariados used Giga Drain on the first turn, then it will be a 3HKO, Venomoth is faster and its Psychic is doing okay damage, Return is a 2HKO, Forretress is 3HKOed by Surf and doesn't do much in return if it doesn't explode, Muk is slower and 3HKOed by Return but its Sludge Bomb is doing a lot of damage, Crobat is faster than Seaking even at -1, Blizzard is a 2HKO and Return a 3HKO, its Wing Attack is also doing good damage, 1-3 Full Restores will probably be needed for this fight, performance C-tier
Bruno: level 42, Seaking is faster than Hitmontop and Pink Bow boosted Return has a chance to 2HKO, Dig isn't doing much, Hitmonchan is the same, Seaking is faster, Return 2HKOs and Thunder Punch isn't doing much, Hitmonlee is faster, High Jump Kick is close to a 2HKO on Seaking, it might also go for Swagger, Seaking 2HKOs with Return, Seaking is faster than Machamp and 3HKOs with Return, however Seaking can only take 1 Cross Chop from full, Onix gets outsped and OHKOed by Surf, performance B/C-tier
Karen: level 42, Seaking outspeeds Umbreon and Return is a 4HKO, its Faint Attacks aren't doing much, Seaking outspeeds Vileplume and Blizzard is a 2HKO, but so is Petal Dance, Gengar is faster and can use Curse, Seaking needs Icy Wind and 2 Surfs to kill it from full, Murkrow is faster and does good damage with Faint Attack, Seaking can 2HKO it with Icy Wind into Return, Houndoom is faster and Crunch has a chance to 2HKO Seaking, Surf 2HKOs it in return, performance C-tier
Lance: level 42, Gyarados is faster and its Hyper Beam does around 70%, Return is a 4HKO, up to two Hyper Potions are needed for this 1v1, all three Dragonites are faster but 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Blizzard, Thunder has a chance to OHKO Seaking and Hyper Beam from the level 47 Dragonites also does a ton of damage, Seaking is 2HKOed by Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite but it can barely take a Hyper Beam from full, Charizard also outspeeds and its Hyper Beam does just a bit over half, Surf is a 2HKO in return, Aerodactly is similar in damage and is also only 2HKOed by Surf, a lot of healing items are needed in this fight, performance C/D-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Gym 5: level 30, Primeape is faster and often goes for Leer, Seaking 2HKOs with Return its Karate Chops can bring Seaking to half before it goes down, Poiwrath is slower and Return is only a 4HKO, Dynamic Punch is a 2HKO but it will constantly go for the raw punch instead of setting it up with Mind Reader, so Seaking has good chances, performance B-tier
Gym 6: level 33, Seaking outspeeds and OHKOs both Magnemites, Surf has a chance to OHKO Steelix, if it lives Surf, it will set up sun and Jasmine heals it up to full with a Hyper Potion, then Surf is a 3HKO, Steelix is also walled by Seaking as none of its attacks do much damage,
performance S-tier
Gym 7: level 31, Seaking outspeeds seel and 2HKOs with Return, Seel will only slow Seaking down with Icy Wind, but Seaking is still faster than Seel even at -1, Dewgong is faster after the speedrop, tough, and tries to Headbutt flinch, but it doesn't do much damage, Return is a 3HKO, so Dewgong's Rest is only lengthening the battle, Piloswine is faster than -1 Seaking but it is almost walled and 2 Surfs easily take it out, performance S/A-tier
Rival 4: level 35, Seaking speedties Golbat, Blizzard OHKOs while Return is a 2HKO, Magnemite is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Haunter is faster and could get a Curse off (though in my 3 tries it always went for Mean Look), Icy Wind into Surf 2HKOs from full, Sneasel is faster but doesn't really do anything, Return is a 2HKO, Feraligatr is slower and 3HKOed by Return, its Bites don't do much damage, the fight should be about the same if the rival has Meganium and even easier if he has Quilava, performance S/A-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Seaking outspeeds all three Dragonairs but Blizzard is not an OHKO, even with Never-Melt Ice, Return is a 2HKO on all three, the Surf and Ice Beam Dragonair can't do too much damage but Thunderbolt is doing almost half, a Full Restore should be used before knocking out the last Dragonair, Kingdra outspeeds Seaking but Dragon Breath is only around 30% and Return is a 3HKO, if Seaking got low enough HP you can bait Kingdra into Hyper Beam which does exactly half, use a Hyper Potion to take it and then knock out Kingdra on the charge turn without Clair getting a chance to use her Full Restore, performance A/B-tier
Rival 5: level 39, Sneasel is faster but the most it can do is lower Seaking's defenses with Screech for a later teammate, Return is a 2HKO, Magneton is slower and 2HKOed by Surf, it can paralyse Seaking and Thunder Shock does 35-40%, so a Full Restore is needed here, Golbat is faster and can be annoying, Icy Wind into Blizzard or Return knocks it out, Haunter is faster but its Shadow Ball does do very much, it could get a Curse off, though, Icy Wind into Surf 2HKOs it, Kadabra is faster but wastes its turn on Future Sight, even if it could kill Seaking, Return OHKOs it, Seaking outspeeds Feraligatr and 3HKOs it with Return, Slash isn't doing that much without a crit but another Hyper Potion will be needed to close out this fight, the fight is largely the same if the Rival has Typhlosion or Meganium, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 40, Xatu is faster and Psychic is doing a ton, but Icy Wind into Return is a 2HKO, Exeggutor is slower but its Psychic is even stronger and is doing over half, Blizzard into Return is a 2HKO, Jynx is faster than Seaking and its Psychic 2HKOs, Seaking is too low on HP at this point, so you have to switch out and heal up Seaking, Seaking has a chance to OHKO it with Icy Wind into Return, though, if it carries the Pink Bow, Slowbro is 3HKOed by Return unless it uses Curse, its Psychic is close to a 2HKO on Seaking, the second Xatu is similar to the first one, its Psychic is not a 2HKO yet but Icy Wind into Return is only a chance to OHKO, performance C-tier
Koga: level 40, Seaking is faster and 2HKOes with Pink Bow boosted Return, if Ariados used Giga Drain on the first turn, then it will be a 3HKO, Venomoth is faster and its Psychic is doing okay damage, Return is a 2HKO, Forretress is 3HKOed by Surf and doesn't do much in return if it doesn't explode, Muk is slower and 3HKOed by Return but its Sludge Bomb is doing a lot of damage, Crobat is faster than Seaking even at -1, Blizzard is a 2HKO and Return a 3HKO, its Wing Attack is also doing good damage, 1-3 Full Restores will probably be needed for this fight, performance C-tier
Bruno: level 42, Seaking is faster than Hitmontop and Pink Bow boosted Return has a chance to 2HKO, Dig isn't doing much, Hitmonchan is the same, Seaking is faster, Return 2HKOs and Thunder Punch isn't doing much, Hitmonlee is faster, High Jump Kick is close to a 2HKO on Seaking, it might also go for Swagger, Seaking 2HKOs with Return, Seaking is faster than Machamp and 3HKOs with Return, however Seaking can only take 1 Cross Chop from full, Onix gets outsped and OHKOed by Surf, performance B/C-tier
Karen: level 42, Seaking outspeeds Umbreon and Return is a 4HKO, its Faint Attacks aren't doing much, Seaking outspeeds Vileplume and Blizzard is a 2HKO, but so is Petal Dance, Gengar is faster and can use Curse, Seaking needs Icy Wind and 2 Surfs to kill it from full, Murkrow is faster and does good damage with Faint Attack, Seaking can 2HKO it with Icy Wind into Return, Houndoom is faster and Crunch has a chance to 2HKO Seaking, Surf 2HKOs it in return, performance C-tier
Lance: level 42, Gyarados is faster and its Hyper Beam does around 70%, Return is a 4HKO, up to two Hyper Potions are needed for this 1v1, all three Dragonites are faster but 2HKOed by Icy Wind into Blizzard, Thunder has a chance to OHKO Seaking and Hyper Beam from the level 47 Dragonites also does a ton of damage, Seaking is 2HKOed by Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite but it can barely take a Hyper Beam from full, Charizard also outspeeds and its Hyper Beam does just a bit over half, Surf is a 2HKO in return, Aerodactly is similar in damage and is also only 2HKOed by Surf, a lot of healing items are needed in this fight, performance C/D-tier
Overall battle performance: B-tier
Rival 4: level 35, Golbat is faster, Octillerty only 2HKOs Golbat as Surf barely doesn't OHKO, even with the Mystic Water, Psybeam and Aurora Beam also only 2HKO, Golbat can get off a decent bit of damage, Magnemite gets outspeed and OHKOed by Surf, it can be dangerous if you hit yourself in confusion, though, Haunter is faster and could get a Curse off before it goes down but Psybeam is an OHKO even from full, Sneasel does barely any damage and Surf has a chance to OHKO, Feraligatr is faster and will go for Bite flinches but it doesn't do very much, Octillerty can sadly only 4HKO it, so Curse will come into effect if Haunter used it, the fight is larely similar against Meganium, Quilava is the easiest, performance A/B-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Octillery is slower but 2HKOs all three Dragonairs with Aurora Beam, the Surf and Ice Beam Dragonair don't deall too much damage but Thunderbolt is almost doing half, multiple healing items are needed, Kingdra's Dragon Breath is doing 30% and Aurora Beam is only a 5HKO, Hyper Beam does half, many healing items are needed for this 1v1, performance C-tier
Rival 5: level 39, Sneasel can't do much except Screech, Surf OHKOs it, Magneton is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Golbat can be annoying but is 2HKOed by any move, Haunter's Shadow Ball doesn't do much and Surf OHKOs it, Haunter could get a Curse off, though, Kadabra is faster but wastes its turn on Future Sight, even if it could knock out Octillery, Surf OHKOs it, Feraligatr is faster but its Slash is only a 5HKO and Octillerty can 3HKO it with Mystic Water Surf, because of the Future Sight 2 Hyper Potions are needed, though, the matchup against the rival with Typhlosion or Meganium is mostly the same, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 39, Xatu is faster and Psychic is almost a 2HKO, Surf 2HKOs in return, Exeggutor is slower and 2HKOed by Aurora Beam but Octillery is too low on HP after Xatu, so Exeggutor's Psychic which already 2HKOs knocks it out and Octillery has to be revived, Jynx is faster and 2HKOs with Psychic or puts Octillery to sleep with Lovely Kiss, Surf is a 2HKO with Mystic Water, Octillery is walled by Slowbro and its Psychics are doing too much damage to win the 1v1, the second Xatu is dealing even more damage than the first, Surf is still a 2HKO, though, performance D-tier
Koga: level 40, Octillery outspeeds and easily 2HKOs Ariados, its Giga Drains don't do much damage, Venomoth is faster and can do okay damage with Psychic or status, Surf is a 2HKO, Forretress is outsped and 2HKOed by Surf, it only gets Spikes up, Muk is outsped and 3HKOed by Surf but its Sludge Bomb do a lot of damage, there is a good chance that it will waste its turns, though, Crobat is 2HKOed by Mystic Water boosted Surf and its Wing Attack isn't doing too much damage, performance B/C-tier
Bruno: level 41, Hitmontop is faster and goes for Dig, which doesn't do a lot, Surf is a 2HKO, Hitmonchan is similar, it is faster, Thunder Punch isn't dealing that much damage and Surf 2HKOs, Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick is stronger but it still isn't a 2HKO on Octillery, Surf also 2HKOs, 2 Hyper Potions are needed til here, Machamp is slower, Surf is only a 3HKO and Cross Chop 2HKOs, Onix doesn't do too much with Earthquake and then gets OHKOed by Surf, performance B-tier
Karen: level 41, Umbreon is faster and its Faint Attacks aren't doing that much, Surf is a chance for a 3HKO, Umbreon can be a hassle with its status moves, Octillery outspeeds Vileplume and 2HKOs with Never-Melt Ice boosted Aurora Beam, however Petal Dance is doing a ton and Octillery can only take one from full, Gengar is faster and can get a Curse or Destiny Bond off, Surf kills after it uses Curse or 2HKOs from full, Murkrow is doing decent damage with Faint Attack but Surf has a chance to OHKO, Houndoom 2HKOs with Crunch and Surf is an OHKO without Mystic Water,
performance C-tier
Lance: level 41, Gyarados is faster and Hyper Beam is doing 60%, Aurora Beam is only a 5HKOs, Thunder from Dragonite has a chance to OHKO Octillery from full, Hyper Beam is also doing a ton of damage and Aurora Beam isn't an OHKO back on any of the Dragonites, Outrage also 2HKOs, Octillery OHKOs Aerodactyl but its attacks also do a lot of damage, Charizard is similar in damage but it is not OHKOed by Surf, performance D-tier
Overall battle performance: B/C-tier
Gym 8: level 37, Octillery is slower but 2HKOs all three Dragonairs with Aurora Beam, the Surf and Ice Beam Dragonair don't deall too much damage but Thunderbolt is almost doing half, multiple healing items are needed, Kingdra's Dragon Breath is doing 30% and Aurora Beam is only a 5HKO, Hyper Beam does half, many healing items are needed for this 1v1, performance C-tier
Rival 5: level 39, Sneasel can't do much except Screech, Surf OHKOs it, Magneton is outsped and OHKOed by Surf, Golbat can be annoying but is 2HKOed by any move, Haunter's Shadow Ball doesn't do much and Surf OHKOs it, Haunter could get a Curse off, though, Kadabra is faster but wastes its turn on Future Sight, even if it could knock out Octillery, Surf OHKOs it, Feraligatr is faster but its Slash is only a 5HKO and Octillerty can 3HKO it with Mystic Water Surf, because of the Future Sight 2 Hyper Potions are needed, though, the matchup against the rival with Typhlosion or Meganium is mostly the same, performance A/B-tier
Will: level 39, Xatu is faster and Psychic is almost a 2HKO, Surf 2HKOs in return, Exeggutor is slower and 2HKOed by Aurora Beam but Octillery is too low on HP after Xatu, so Exeggutor's Psychic which already 2HKOs knocks it out and Octillery has to be revived, Jynx is faster and 2HKOs with Psychic or puts Octillery to sleep with Lovely Kiss, Surf is a 2HKO with Mystic Water, Octillery is walled by Slowbro and its Psychics are doing too much damage to win the 1v1, the second Xatu is dealing even more damage than the first, Surf is still a 2HKO, though, performance D-tier
Koga: level 40, Octillery outspeeds and easily 2HKOs Ariados, its Giga Drains don't do much damage, Venomoth is faster and can do okay damage with Psychic or status, Surf is a 2HKO, Forretress is outsped and 2HKOed by Surf, it only gets Spikes up, Muk is outsped and 3HKOed by Surf but its Sludge Bomb do a lot of damage, there is a good chance that it will waste its turns, though, Crobat is 2HKOed by Mystic Water boosted Surf and its Wing Attack isn't doing too much damage, performance B/C-tier
Bruno: level 41, Hitmontop is faster and goes for Dig, which doesn't do a lot, Surf is a 2HKO, Hitmonchan is similar, it is faster, Thunder Punch isn't dealing that much damage and Surf 2HKOs, Hitmonlee's High Jump Kick is stronger but it still isn't a 2HKO on Octillery, Surf also 2HKOs, 2 Hyper Potions are needed til here, Machamp is slower, Surf is only a 3HKO and Cross Chop 2HKOs, Onix doesn't do too much with Earthquake and then gets OHKOed by Surf, performance B-tier
Karen: level 41, Umbreon is faster and its Faint Attacks aren't doing that much, Surf is a chance for a 3HKO, Umbreon can be a hassle with its status moves, Octillery outspeeds Vileplume and 2HKOs with Never-Melt Ice boosted Aurora Beam, however Petal Dance is doing a ton and Octillery can only take one from full, Gengar is faster and can get a Curse or Destiny Bond off, Surf kills after it uses Curse or 2HKOs from full, Murkrow is doing decent damage with Faint Attack but Surf has a chance to OHKO, Houndoom 2HKOs with Crunch and Surf is an OHKO without Mystic Water,
performance C-tier
Lance: level 41, Gyarados is faster and Hyper Beam is doing 60%, Aurora Beam is only a 5HKOs, Thunder from Dragonite has a chance to OHKO Octillery from full, Hyper Beam is also doing a ton of damage and Aurora Beam isn't an OHKO back on any of the Dragonites, Outrage also 2HKOs, Octillery OHKOs Aerodactyl but its attacks also do a lot of damage, Charizard is similar in damage but it is not OHKOed by Surf, performance D-tier
Overall battle performance: B/C-tier
Gym 8: level 40, Lugia's Aeroblast barely doesn't OHKO the three Dragonairs, even with Sharp Beak, Shadow Ball has a good chance to 2HKO with Spell Tag, the three Dragonir can't do more than paralyse Lugia as even their super-effective Thunderbolt und Ice Beam is doing little damage, 1 Full Restore before knocking out the last Dragonair can be helpful, Kingdra can't really damage Lugia either, Aeroblast is sadly not a 2HKO, though, unless you get a crit, performance S/A-tier
Rival 5: level 40, Lugia outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel with Aeroblast, Magneton is 2HKOed by Mystic Water Waterfall (or OHKOed by Earthquake if you gave Lugia the TM), Magneton doesn't do much damage outside of Thunder Wave, Golbat is similar, 2HKOed by Aeroblast into Waterfall, can only really confuse Lugia as Bite does almost nothing, Haunter and Kadabra are outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Feraligatr is has a chance to be 2HKOed by Aeroblast while being no threat in return, the fight es even easier against Meganium and Typhlosion, performance S-tier
Will: level 40, Lugia outspeeds every Pokemon, the two Xatus can't touch it and Shadow Ball is a clean 2HKO, Jynx is OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Slowbro is only 3HKOed by Shadow Ball but it also can't really touch Lugia outside of maybe paraylizing it with Body Slam if it even goes for it, Exeggutor has a chance to be OHKOEd by Aeroblast with Sharp Peak, overall very easy and risk free sweep, performance S-tier
Koga: level 40, Lugia outspeeds and OHKOs Ariados with Aeroblast, Forretress is 3HKOed by Waterfall with Mystic Water (or Surf), it won't do any real damage back, Crobat is faster but can't do anything besides evasion cheese and using Toxic, Aeroblast is a 3HKO, Venomoth is outsped and OHKOed by Aeroblast, Muk is 3HKOed by Aeroblast or 4HKOed by Waterfall or Shadow Ball, all Muk can do is evasion cheese and status, it hurts Lugia that is doesn't get a STAB Psychic move until Kanto, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 40, Lugia outspeeds every Pokemon, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are all OHKOed by Aeroblast, Onix is OHKOed by Waterfall, Machamp lives 1 Aeroblast, so Shadow Ball into Aeronlast should be done to avoid Bruno's Max Potion, Machamp's Rock Slide is a 2HKO on Lugia, performance S-tier
Karen: level 40, Lugia outspeeds every Pokemon, Lugia 3HKOs Umbreon with Sharp Beak boosted Aeroblast, Faint Attack isn't doing too much but the status moves are annoying, Murkrow is not OHKOed by Aeroblast, so it is only 2HKOed by Aeroblast into Waterfall, its Faint Attacks leave a bit more of a mark, Houndoom is only 3HKOed by Waterfall (Surf would be a 2HKO), but Aeroblast into Waterfall is a 2HKO, Houndoom's Crunch is also a 2HKO on Lugia, Gengar can't do much to Lugia and is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, Vileplume is OHKOed by Aeroblast, Umbreon can mess things up immensely for the rest of the fight, performance C-tier
Lance: level 41, Lugia outspeeds Gyarados and 3HKOs it with 2 Aeroblast and 1 Shadow Ball, its Hyper Beams only deal 35-40%, Lugia can only 4HKO the Dragonites with Dragon Breath (or any other move unless you gave it the Blizzard TM), meanwhile Thunder and Blizzard are almost 2HKOs, Aerodactyl is faster and 2HKOs with Rock Slide, Waterfall is only a 2HKO, Charizard has a chance to be 2HKOed by Waterfall, its attacks do decent damage, Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite is only doing 30% and its Hyper Beam is not a 2HKO, performance C/D-tier
Overall battle performance: A-tier
Rival 5: level 40, Lugia outspeeds and OHKOs Sneasel with Aeroblast, Magneton is 2HKOed by Mystic Water Waterfall (or OHKOed by Earthquake if you gave Lugia the TM), Magneton doesn't do much damage outside of Thunder Wave, Golbat is similar, 2HKOed by Aeroblast into Waterfall, can only really confuse Lugia as Bite does almost nothing, Haunter and Kadabra are outsped and OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Feraligatr is has a chance to be 2HKOed by Aeroblast while being no threat in return, the fight es even easier against Meganium and Typhlosion, performance S-tier
Will: level 40, Lugia outspeeds every Pokemon, the two Xatus can't touch it and Shadow Ball is a clean 2HKO, Jynx is OHKOed by Shadow Ball, Slowbro is only 3HKOed by Shadow Ball but it also can't really touch Lugia outside of maybe paraylizing it with Body Slam if it even goes for it, Exeggutor has a chance to be OHKOEd by Aeroblast with Sharp Peak, overall very easy and risk free sweep, performance S-tier
Koga: level 40, Lugia outspeeds and OHKOs Ariados with Aeroblast, Forretress is 3HKOed by Waterfall with Mystic Water (or Surf), it won't do any real damage back, Crobat is faster but can't do anything besides evasion cheese and using Toxic, Aeroblast is a 3HKO, Venomoth is outsped and OHKOed by Aeroblast, Muk is 3HKOed by Aeroblast or 4HKOed by Waterfall or Shadow Ball, all Muk can do is evasion cheese and status, it hurts Lugia that is doesn't get a STAB Psychic move until Kanto, performance A-tier
Bruno: level 40, Lugia outspeeds every Pokemon, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee are all OHKOed by Aeroblast, Onix is OHKOed by Waterfall, Machamp lives 1 Aeroblast, so Shadow Ball into Aeronlast should be done to avoid Bruno's Max Potion, Machamp's Rock Slide is a 2HKO on Lugia, performance S-tier
Karen: level 40, Lugia outspeeds every Pokemon, Lugia 3HKOs Umbreon with Sharp Beak boosted Aeroblast, Faint Attack isn't doing too much but the status moves are annoying, Murkrow is not OHKOed by Aeroblast, so it is only 2HKOed by Aeroblast into Waterfall, its Faint Attacks leave a bit more of a mark, Houndoom is only 3HKOed by Waterfall (Surf would be a 2HKO), but Aeroblast into Waterfall is a 2HKO, Houndoom's Crunch is also a 2HKO on Lugia, Gengar can't do much to Lugia and is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, Vileplume is OHKOed by Aeroblast, Umbreon can mess things up immensely for the rest of the fight, performance C-tier
Lance: level 41, Lugia outspeeds Gyarados and 3HKOs it with 2 Aeroblast and 1 Shadow Ball, its Hyper Beams only deal 35-40%, Lugia can only 4HKO the Dragonites with Dragon Breath (or any other move unless you gave it the Blizzard TM), meanwhile Thunder and Blizzard are almost 2HKOs, Aerodactyl is faster and 2HKOs with Rock Slide, Waterfall is only a 2HKO, Charizard has a chance to be 2HKOed by Waterfall, its attacks do decent damage, Outrage from the level 50 Dragonite is only doing 30% and its Hyper Beam is not a 2HKO, performance C/D-tier
Overall battle performance: A-tier
Slowpoke has very weird stats compared to Slowbro, where it has very low special attack and better attack for some reason. It is also super slow and nearly always moves second, even after it evolves. I guess it is in the name but constantly going second is such a bad trait, especially in the hax generation that is gen 2. The Slowbro evolution is also insanly high at level 37. Still, it is not all bad. Water / Psychic is an amazing typing and the coverage of Surf / Confusion / Ice Punch and Strength is really good. It also is available early in Slowpoke Well before the second gym. Curse is also a good setup move for early game that allows it to sweep some otherwise difficult matchups like Bugsy, Whitney and Pryce. Still, its speed becomes more and more of an issue and is the cause for some of its worst matchups.
Slowpoke (Slowbro) had 1 nomination each for C-tier, C/D-tier and D-tier so far. D-tier feels too harsh to be because it does okay overall. But its bad speed does knock it down a tier for me, so I belive C-tier for Slowpoke (Slowbro) is correct.
Goldeen is available as soon as Union Cave but just like Tentacool it is more better to catch a later underleveled Seaking instead to skip its bad early stage. Seaking can be encountered on Route 42 as soon as you get the 5th badge and also at a reasonable level. It is best to catch it in a Friend Ball. The Apricorn for it is on the same route but making the ball requires backtracking to Azalea Town and back. But it is worth it to give Seaking and pretty functional moveset of almost full power Return and Surf immediately. For the point of the game you get this Seaking, it is actually pretty good, which suprised me. I didn't think Seaking would perform as an S- and A-tier for 3 gym. Still, it eventually falls off due to its mediocre stats. Icy Wind and Blizzard are kind of necessary TMs for it as well, so it is pretty TM dependent.
Goldeen has 2 nominations for D-tier and I assume they went with the earliest possible Goldeen instead. But if you go for the later Seaking, I actually think Goldeen makes it into C-tier. The slight backtrack and the required TMs are pulling it down but not enough to be in D-tier imo.
Remoraid is such a shame. It is barely not available in the mid game. You can get to Mahogany Town before clearing the 4th gym. But without having having cleared the first 7 gyms a NPC at the east just won't leave you out of town. At least you can still get Remoraid before you clear out Team Rocket in Goldenrod City, unlike in the remakes, but it still means that it comes very late. It also has similar requirements to stone evolutions, as it is a pure Swarm encounter, which you have to cause through a phone call with a certain NPC on Route 44. At least you have Fly by then, so it isn't backtracking to your house, and the NPC in question only has one response unlike the stone NPCs. You also might trade in the Red Scale at the Prof while you are in your home town because Remoraid is awful and pretty underleveled. You will have to raise it 5 levels with the Exp Share to evolve it because it can't do it on its own. Octilliery is okay. Aurora Beam and Psybeam are cool coverage moves via level-up but due to their low base power, they are only useful against super-effective targets that also resist Water due to how strong STAB Surf is. Octillery has pretty much no highlights left. At best it is okay and at worst it just dies due to its low speed and bulk. It offers little that other early Water types can't do much better.
Remoraid had 2 nominations for D-tier and 1 for E-tier. I honestly think E-tier is more accurate. It comes super late, underleveled at that, requires the DST trick, still has a babysitting stage, is slow and frail, has no good matchups left and is interchangable. So yeah, it is awful. E-tier for Remoraid.
Lugia is very weird. You can go to its encounter location before you clear the 5th and 6th gym. Only Surf and Whirlpool from gym 4 and 7 are needed to get there. But Lugia just straightup won't be there until you receive the Silver Wing from the Goldenrod Radio Tower for defeating Team Rocket. Which means Lugia is only obtainable before the 8th gym. You also won't have the Master Ball until after clearing the final gym. And due to Lugia's incredibly low catch rate and the fact that only the Sleep and Freeze statuses increase the catch rate as well as Lugia having Recover, the best strategy seriously is just to buy like 40 Pokeballs and toss them at a full health Lugia until you get lucky. It is legit a ~1% catch chance, the change in catch rate for other things like the Heavy Ball is so miniscule (~2%), that it is just not worth it. You could easily waste over half an hour doing this. So there is a debate here to just skip it for gym 8 to catch it with the Master Ball, so you only use it for the Pokemon League. Clair is a good matchup for it, though, so that is a shame. While Lugia's offenses are kind of mediocre, it is pretty much unkillable until Karen and Lance. It will sweep most remaining trainers without needing many if any healing items. Still, Karen and Lance are surprisingly difficult for this legendary Pokemon due to its low offenses and lack of useful moves. Aeroblast is a good move but it only has 5PP and coming from Lugia it is not doing that much damage. Dragonbreath is its best move against Lance if you can't come up with the Blizzard TM. Lance being such a tough matchup for it really surprised me.
Lugia has 1 nomination for A-, B- and C-tier each. And despite the fact that it mostly has amazing matchups left, it sucks that the last two are so bad. Of course it is also super late, possibly annoying to get and almost wants at least 1 or 2 TMs. B-tier feels too high for me. Lugia (Silver) should be in C-tier.
I would like to know your stance on these Pokemon.
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Not gonna lie, I completely forgot about the wild Slowbro.
Since both Slowtwins are available at exactly the same time, do you think there would be a tier difference between them, or testing either one is fine?
Since both Slowtwins are available at exactly the same time, do you think there would be a tier difference between them, or testing either one is fine?
I don't agree with that. The underleveled Slowbro's you can catch in the lower parts of Slowpoke Well don't come with Curse because they are too high level. They will have Tackle, Growl, Water Gun and Confusion (I tested it). If you decide to catch Slowbro later instead of the early Slowpoke, it misses several important battles (Gym 2, Rival 2, Gym 3 and Gym 4). You will also have to backtrack all the way from Olivine City to Azalea Town because the lower parts of Slowpoke Well require Surf and Strength to get to. Curse is also an important move for Gym 7 as I am pretty sure Slowbro can't break through Dewgong without Curse. Its best available moves in Confusion and Strength are just too weak. I also don't think the Slowbro evolution really improves its matchups before you normally get it very much. Chuck is already a good matchup. Maybe Slowbro can take the Thunderbolts from Jasmine's Magnemites better now but it probably still isn't that good of a matchup. And besides better stats, Slowbro only has access to Ice Punch over Slowpoke, which you don't really need before Clair anyway.
Exeggcute's early game is bad but getting to Confusion isn't THAT difficult because you get it around Goldenrod City which has many availble trainers. Rollout should be given to it for sure and with Reflect and Leech Seed it can get there until the Leaf Stone. Not a fun period, tough.
I could potentially see Slowking one tier higher in B-tier because you can get it before gym 5, where Slowbro really only becomes available for gym 8 because of its high evolution level of 37. But then again, to get Slowking as soon as possible requires some long backtracking. And after gym 7 it mostly plays the same as Slowbro anyway and has the same issues (mainly its speed). Slowking was already nominated 4 times for C-rank, so those advantages and disadvantages probably cancel out and it will land in the same rank as Slowbro. Slowbro is the more contested among the two Pokemon, though. So if you want to do a run with one of them, then Slowbro would have more merit.
Also I tied Goldeen (2 nominations for C- and D-tier each) and Remoraid (2 nominations for D- and E-tier each) again with my Silver run (sorry everybody). You coud also go for one of those.
Also Turdterra, I got easily above level 40 with several Pokemon this Silver run, while my other two Crystal teams didn't. I guess it really depends a lot on the team. But I have no doubt now that Gengar can reach those important level caps it needs for KOs. I support A-tier for Gegnar.
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As strong as Curse is, if you're using a Slowpoke, you really might as well go for Slowking. It's just not worth the hassle to evolve it normally into Slowbro.
Also, Curse is not the only thing it can do. Rain Dance + Surf does a gorillion damage and the Slowtwins are more than bulky enough to set it up effortlessly.
Underleveled Slowbro can easily use a moveset of Surf/Confusion/Ice Punch(Icy Wind)/Rain Dance
I agree. Slowking and Slowbro have the same movepool and almost the same stats, but you just get Slowking earlier. I just meant that there is currently less consensus on where Slowbro should be ranked. Hence an additional Slowbro run would help out more. But you are free to choose any Pokemon you want to run with of course.
I ditched Curse on Slowbro when I got to Claire because I ran out of move slots since I needed Ice Punch + STABs, so there was no room for Curse + Strength. The fourth move could be Rain Dance, but I am not sure the Slow twins are that great of a user of the move or that it would help them much. Setup moves on slower Pokemon are better when they also boost their defenses and Slowbro has a nasty habbit of being a hax magnet, which loses rain turns. Boosted Surfs don't really help much against Chuck, Jasmine, Pryce or Claire, and I don't remember stronger Surfs being that useful in the league either. I could be wrong, though.
I'm fukking crying, y'all are unserious. Why am I even making calcs about whether or not I'm going to 5HKO Bug Catcher Wade's Lv. 2 Caterpie?
I went through the effort and compiled the current state of the mons that were brought up for the final tier list by Turdterra and Zebes, and also the new nominations of the last pages. Hopefully that is a better overview for you all.
A-tier:
Gastly (Trade)___________(4 A-tier nominations)
B-tier:
Rattata__________________(3 B-tier nominations)
Machop (Trade)_________(3 B-tier nominations)
C-tier:
Machop (No Trade)_____(3 C-tier nominations and 1 D-tier nomination)
Lugia (Silver) ____________(1 A-tier nomination, 1 B-tier nomination and 3 C-tier nomination)
Mantine_________________(3 C-tier nominations)
Shellder (Crystal)________(4 C-tier nominations and 1 C/D-tier nomination)
Slowpoke (Slowking)____(4 C-tier nominations, 1 C/D-tier nomination and 1 D-tier nomination)
Suicune (all versions)____(1 B-tier nomination, 3 C-tier nominations and 1 D-tier nomination)
D-tier:
Corsola__________________(4 D-tier nominations)
Eevee (Jolteon) (Crystal)_(3 D-tier nominations)
Spinarak_________________(3 D-tier nominations)
Vulpix____________________(3 D-tier nominations)
E-tier:
Remoraid________________(3 E-tier nominations)
Gastly (Trade)___________(4 A-tier nominations)
B-tier:
Rattata__________________(3 B-tier nominations)
Machop (Trade)_________(3 B-tier nominations)
C-tier:
Machop (No Trade)_____(3 C-tier nominations and 1 D-tier nomination)
Lugia (Silver) ____________(1 A-tier nomination, 1 B-tier nomination and 3 C-tier nomination)
Mantine_________________(3 C-tier nominations)
Shellder (Crystal)________(4 C-tier nominations and 1 C/D-tier nomination)
Slowpoke (Slowking)____(4 C-tier nominations, 1 C/D-tier nomination and 1 D-tier nomination)
Suicune (all versions)____(1 B-tier nomination, 3 C-tier nominations and 1 D-tier nomination)
D-tier:
Corsola__________________(4 D-tier nominations)
Eevee (Jolteon) (Crystal)_(3 D-tier nominations)
Spinarak_________________(3 D-tier nominations)
Vulpix____________________(3 D-tier nominations)
E-tier:
Remoraid________________(3 E-tier nominations)
Leaning towards one rank:
Slowpoke (Slowbro)_____(2 C-tier nominations, 1 C/D-tier nomination and 1 D-tier nomination)
Eevee (Flareon) (Crystal)_(1 C-tier nominations, 1 C/D-tier nomination and 2 D-tier nomination)
Dunsparce_______________(1 C-tier nomination and 2 D-tier nominations)
Tied:
Tentacool________________(3 B-tier nominations and 3 C-tier nominations)
Exeggcute (Crystal)______(2 C-tier nominations and 2 D-tier nominations)
Goldeen_________________(2 C-tier nominations and 2 D-tier nominations)
Slowpoke (Slowbro)_____(2 C-tier nominations, 1 C/D-tier nomination and 1 D-tier nomination)
Eevee (Flareon) (Crystal)_(1 C-tier nominations, 1 C/D-tier nomination and 2 D-tier nomination)
Dunsparce_______________(1 C-tier nomination and 2 D-tier nominations)
Tied:
Tentacool________________(3 B-tier nominations and 3 C-tier nominations)
Exeggcute (Crystal)______(2 C-tier nominations and 2 D-tier nominations)
Goldeen_________________(2 C-tier nominations and 2 D-tier nominations)
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I would advise getting a Male Gastly. Males in GSC have a guaranteed 8 or higher attack DV. Females are 0-7. That’s also how gender is determined. Since Ghost is Physical, it tends to help.
I'm fukking crying, y'all are unserious. Why am I even making calcs about whether or not I'm going to 5HKO Bug Catcher Wade's Lv. 2 Caterpie?
Thanks for this. Most of the Pokemon that are tied are unclear or ones that could use a bit more. Usually if it’s a disparity of 1 test (2/1, 3/2) I usually want another just to make sure.
small correction: Remoraid does not have any D-tier nominations whatsoever, a quick search suggests all nominations have been for E-tier (and for a good reason, Remoraid has nothing good going for it), so it can be regarded as concluded
What an unfortunate typo in Zebe's post haha. Fixed my overview. Thanks.
I'm aware, but at the same time, when running tests, I always get the first mon that shows up. There's a luck factor involved, after all.
While I'm at it... Might as well drop a short log.
I'm at Bugsy right now, but this testing run is not quite standard as I'm actively frontloading my team to avoid falling into a pitfall by going for a test with Gastly, Exeggcute, Flareon, and Slowbro. If that were the case, Gastly would inevitably be overleveled because it wouldn't need to split Exp with anything until Ilex Forest.
With that out of the way, I decided to pick some odd choices, but nothing that would be too uncommon in a normal run. A starter, a medium-fast early mon, and then another one.
For the sake of clarity, these mons are Charmander instead of Cyndaquil, the St2 Gift Gligar with EQ, and the Lv. 10 gift Tyrogue.
With that out of the way, I decided to pick some odd choices, but nothing that would be too uncommon in a normal run. A starter, a medium-fast early mon, and then another one.
For the sake of clarity, these mons are Charmander instead of Cyndaquil, the St2 Gift Gligar with EQ, and the Lv. 10 gift Tyrogue.
Now, to focus on Gastly since the other mons are better served to the What If thread...
Gastly's early-game is bad, but it's saved by the impact of levels in damage calculation. It's fairly acceptable to use it, especially in Sprout Tower. The problem is that it can't deal with high Defense mons, Normal-types, and it clearly struggles against anything close to its level. Otherwise, most mons are 3~4HKO'd by Lick, which isn't insufferable. Defensively, it walls about everything the game has to offer at this point but Flying moves.
Against Falkner, it simply flops. You can click Hypnosis once or twice before going down against Pidgeotto, and that's about it. It can't deal damage at all. D-Tier performance.
Gastly Lv: 8
Team Lvs: 9, 9
Rival 2 is AWFUL. Lick may be a 2HKO on Gastly, but if Hypnosis hits, reset. Zubat beats it cleanly with Bite. Croconaw also packs it up effortlessly, it needs Curse to win this matchup. D-Tier.
Gastly Lv: 14
Team Lvs: 14, 14, 15
Against Bugsy, it easily sweeps at Lv. 15. Metapod and Kakuna may take roughly 10-14 licks to go down, but you do learn Curse in the process and that's the end of Scyther. Just make sure to hold a Berry when doing Curse shenanigans. S-Tier performance.
Gastly Lv: 15
Team Lvs: 14, 15, 16
Against Falkner, it simply flops. You can click Hypnosis once or twice before going down against Pidgeotto, and that's about it. It can't deal damage at all. D-Tier performance.
Gastly Lv: 8
Team Lvs: 9, 9
Rival 2 is AWFUL. Lick may be a 2HKO on Gastly, but if Hypnosis hits, reset. Zubat beats it cleanly with Bite. Croconaw also packs it up effortlessly, it needs Curse to win this matchup. D-Tier.
Gastly Lv: 14
Team Lvs: 14, 14, 15
Against Bugsy, it easily sweeps at Lv. 15. Metapod and Kakuna may take roughly 10-14 licks to go down, but you do learn Curse in the process and that's the end of Scyther. Just make sure to hold a Berry when doing Curse shenanigans. S-Tier performance.
Gastly Lv: 15
Team Lvs: 14, 15, 16
So far, it's about what I expected tbh. My main concern with the early-game is documenting how the game develops when Gastly is thrown into a standard-ish team composition because teams like Starter, Bird, Mareep are fairly common.
I'd test Post-Surf Slowbro while I'm at it, but y'all prefer to test 4 mons in Johto. I feel 5 is more common in in-game runs, despite the issues it may bring, but your call.
Edit: Without spending a dime and beating all trainers but the cop near the daycare, I got to Goldenrod with exactly 17k. If I start selling some junk, I can easily break 20. Maybe even 22.
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At Whitney right now.
Gastly at Lv. 19, rest of the team at 19, 20, 20.
It's really hard to use Gastly at this point, the level gap doesn't influence damage calcs that much, there are a lot of Normal and bulkier mons around. Having to Curse against a Venonat is awful.
Cursing Miltank sounds like a good idea in theory. In practice, you're just giving it 2-3 free Rollout turns if Hypnosis doesn't hit. You also only have one shot at it if you hold a Berry. It outspeeds Gastly too. Horrendous matchup. Using it is legit going to get you swept. F-Tier.
Gastly at Lv. 19, rest of the team at 19, 20, 20.
It's really hard to use Gastly at this point, the level gap doesn't influence damage calcs that much, there are a lot of Normal and bulkier mons around. Having to Curse against a Venonat is awful.
Cursing Miltank sounds like a good idea in theory. In practice, you're just giving it 2-3 free Rollout turns if Hypnosis doesn't hit. You also only have one shot at it if you hold a Berry. It outspeeds Gastly too. Horrendous matchup. Using it is legit going to get you swept. F-Tier.
Ok, since you jerks didn't post in the last four days, I'll have to triple-post. 
Pls don't ban me DHR
Just got through Chuck... somehow.
Gen 2 really is the hax generation. Good lord. Let's take it slow and talk about the experience so far in three parts.
A two-tier drop for the Gastly is excessive, but one tier is more than justified.
I had to give Gastly massive favoritism for it to evolve it already because I was tired of this shit.
And then there was Morty.
After that, I headed West to equalize my team levels on the Lighthouse and head to Cianwood.
Gengar Lv: 27
Team Lvs: 26, 26, 27
We all know that this isn't exactly off-levels for this point in the game, so let's talk about the results...
Alakazam would NEVER
Now, had I gone back to R34 and Union Cave for some extra trainers, this wouldn't really have been a problem. But that's... quite a detour, so I'm not doing this in an IGTL test.
Am I supposed to believe THIS will have an S-Tier performance against Clair's Kingdra and the E4 with two bad matchups based on typing alone? Don't even get me started on Lance.
Just got through Chuck... somehow.
Gen 2 really is the hax generation. Good lord. Let's take it slow and talk about the experience so far in three parts.
Honestly, I expected the experience of having to drag a Gastly kicking and screaming with a 30BP attack factoring STAB to be like dragging my nuts through concrete and broken glass.
It wasn't. It was just mostly like that. Basically, around Violet City, the level gap makes the damage formula really helps out Gastly. So instead of getting 10~ish HKOs, it gets to 4HKO mons. We take those.
Union Cave and everywhere post-Ilex Forest is hell though.
When it comes to big battles... Gastly only got one on Bugsy. If you get in at Lv. 15 with a Berry, you win. Curse takes a dump on Scyther.
The rest?
Falkner has Mud-Slap and Gastly can't hit him at all.
Rival 2? Bite Zubat and Croconaw just spits on that ghost.
Whitney? Try to Curse Miltank and you're getting your shit swept. Straight up. Giving Miltank 2-3 turns of free Rollout is a death sentence. Curse won't kill it in time and you get ONE shot at Hypnosis saving you.
It wasn't. It was just mostly like that. Basically, around Violet City, the level gap makes the damage formula really helps out Gastly. So instead of getting 10~ish HKOs, it gets to 4HKO mons. We take those.
Union Cave and everywhere post-Ilex Forest is hell though.
When it comes to big battles... Gastly only got one on Bugsy. If you get in at Lv. 15 with a Berry, you win. Curse takes a dump on Scyther.
The rest?
Falkner has Mud-Slap and Gastly can't hit him at all.
Rival 2? Bite Zubat and Croconaw just spits on that ghost.
Whitney? Try to Curse Miltank and you're getting your shit swept. Straight up. Giving Miltank 2-3 turns of free Rollout is a death sentence. Curse won't kill it in time and you get ONE shot at Hypnosis saving you.
I had to give Gastly massive favoritism for it to evolve it already because I was tired of this shit.
And then there was Morty.
Gengar Lv: 25
Team Lvs: 23, 23, 22
Fortunately, Morty is a glue-eating imbecile. Here's the deal. Morty will ALWAYS try to put Gengar to sleep with Hypnosis. I understand that Dream Eater deals like, 95% to an OHKO, but on the other hand... Man has Shadow Ball!!!
You can get a Mint Berry, but this is a dangerous game. If you get put to sleep, you really might as well call it GGs. And if he somehow decided to use Shadow Ball, you're definitely getting packed up. The punches are a 3HKO on Morty's Gengar btw. A-Tier Performance.
Team Lvs: 23, 23, 22
Fortunately, Morty is a glue-eating imbecile. Here's the deal. Morty will ALWAYS try to put Gengar to sleep with Hypnosis. I understand that Dream Eater deals like, 95% to an OHKO, but on the other hand... Man has Shadow Ball!!!
You can get a Mint Berry, but this is a dangerous game. If you get put to sleep, you really might as well call it GGs. And if he somehow decided to use Shadow Ball, you're definitely getting packed up. The punches are a 3HKO on Morty's Gengar btw. A-Tier Performance.
After that, I headed West to equalize my team levels on the Lighthouse and head to Cianwood.
Gengar Lv: 27
Team Lvs: 26, 26, 27
We all know that this isn't exactly off-levels for this point in the game, so let's talk about the results...
Chuck was honestly supposed to be easy money, but guess what. Remember how we were discussing how Gengar had to walk a tight line when it came to levels or it was getting exposed?
THAT POLIWRATH COOKED GENGAR 1V1 FOUR TIMES BEFORE I GOT BAILED OUT BY TWO LOW ROLLS ON SURF AND WON.
THAT POLIWRATH COOKED GENGAR 1V1 FOUR TIMES BEFORE I GOT BAILED OUT BY TWO LOW ROLLS ON SURF AND WON.
Alakazam would NEVER
Now, had I gone back to R34 and Union Cave for some extra trainers, this wouldn't really have been a problem. But that's... quite a detour, so I'm not doing this in an IGTL test.
Am I supposed to believe THIS will have an S-Tier performance against Clair's Kingdra and the E4 with two bad matchups based on typing alone? Don't even get me started on Lance.
I think it has something to do with Shadow Ball not OHKOing your Gengar. Same thing happened on Starmie during my test run, Morty's Gengar just often clicks Hypnosis on it. When i got something that can lure it into using Shadow Ball, i switch-in Starmie on it and only dealt like 2/3 HP.
Also, after beating Morty, getting to near L29-L30 by Chuck is mainly just doing the Mahogany Rocket event first before going to Cianwood, bc the Rocket Grunts are just free EXP and technically not a detour (those guys have like L17 mons)
No need for the name calling mate. Even if you are joking.Ok, since you jerks didn't post in the last four days, I'll have to triple-post.
Pls don't ban me DHR
Just got through Chuck... somehow.
Gen 2 really is the hax generation. Good lord. Let's take it slow and talk about the experience so far in three parts.
A two-tier drop for the Gastly is excessive, but one tier is more than justified.Honestly, I expected the experience of having to drag a Gastly kicking and screaming with a 30BP attack factoring STAB to be like dragging my nuts through concrete and broken glass.
It wasn't. It was just mostly like that. Basically, around Violet City, the level gap makes the damage formula really helps out Gastly. So instead of getting 10~ish HKOs, it gets to 4HKO mons. We take those.
Union Cave and everywhere post-Ilex Forest is hell though.
When it comes to big battles... Gastly only got one on Bugsy. If you get in at Lv. 15 with a Berry, you win. Curse takes a dump on Scyther.
The rest?
Falkner has Mud-Slap and Gastly can't hit him at all.
Rival 2? Bite Zubat and Croconaw just spits on that ghost.
Whitney? Try to Curse Miltank and you're getting your shit swept. Straight up. Giving Miltank 2-3 turns of free Rollout is a death sentence. Curse won't kill it in time and you get ONE shot at Hypnosis saving you.
I had to give Gastly massive favoritism for it to evolve it already because I was tired of this shit.
And then there was Morty.
Gengar Lv: 25
Team Lvs: 23, 23, 22
Fortunately, Morty is a glue-eating imbecile. Here's the deal. Morty will ALWAYS try to put Gengar to sleep with Hypnosis. I understand that Dream Eater deals like, 95% to an OHKO, but on the other hand... Man has Shadow Ball!!!
You can get a Mint Berry, but this is a dangerous game. If you get put to sleep, you really might as well call it GGs. And if he somehow decided to use Shadow Ball, you're definitely getting packed up. The punches are a 3HKO on Morty's Gengar btw. A-Tier Performance.
After that, I headed West to equalize my team levels on the Lighthouse and head to Cianwood.
Gengar Lv: 27
Team Lvs: 26, 26, 27
We all know that this isn't exactly off-levels for this point in the game, so let's talk about the results...
Chuck was honestly supposed to be easy money, but guess what. Remember how we were discussing how Gengar had to walk a tight line when it came to levels or it was getting exposed?
View attachment 657789
THAT POLIWRATH COOKED GENGAR 1V1 FOUR TIMES BEFORE I GOT BAILED OUT BY TWO LOW ROLLS ON SURF AND WON.
Alakazam would NEVER
Now, had I gone back to R34 and Union Cave for some extra trainers, this wouldn't really have been a problem. But that's... quite a detour, so I'm not doing this in an IGTL test.
Am I supposed to believe THIS will have an S-Tier performance against Clair's Kingdra and the E4 with two bad matchups based on typing alone? Don't even get me started on Lance.
Moving off on that, your Chuck levels are low. Simple as is. But they are off levels for sure. Even when I had Gengar horribly overleveled around Morty, I still got to Chuck with 29s average and a Chinchou absorbing a lot of XP. I had stopped using Gengar pretty much entirely until his Gym to get levels. This was just the Lighthouse and the Water Route as well. I don’t even touch the Rocket Stuff yet. Moving off my issues with your levels, you don’t mention what held item you are using. Mint Berry would have made it easy or Magnet would have made it a 2HKO. Where are the ranges on Primeape as well? Where is the rest of Morty?
If you are wanting Gengar to be in B or A, we need full logs, not just partial ones. Even if the results on those are the same, it just validates what is already there and if not, makes us look at them again. At this point, Gengar has 4 A Nominations and 2 ongoing tests.
You can alter the day by the secret menu and running the calc on many of the sites to get your code if you are needing a specific day item but it should only be Magnet really.
Gastly (Trade) will be closing in 2 weeks on the 27th. Please make sure all existing tests are done by then. This gives you ample time to get through testing and any other who wish to test it the ability to do so. It’s dragging on long enough and information is coming out the same for the most part.
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