GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[Pokeron]

This is going to be a long post:

1.
Can someone rationally explain why we choose a 4 Main Pokemon Team? Seems somewhat arbitrary. I have had the most success for making it casual with 3 for example. 4 spreads the EXP to thin, making battles against Trainers on Routes mandatory instead of optional if you want to test them.
2.
Also I read a very odd statement earlier:

Normally, players have their Pokemon around similar levels instead of say, Rattata Lv3 and Cyndaquil Lv12.

What. What?
That sounds even more arbitrary, I would even say it sounds wrong.
Let's give an example about what I think about training everything equally before facing challenges.
Real-Life example: I want to build a team right now of Cyndaquil, Exeggutor(C) and Miltank, right? *

So according to such a statement and to make sure everything ends up in a ""similar"" level for this tier list, I have to use something I don't want to use, let's say Hoothoot, and use it for some battles before the first Gym and second gym as otherwise I would have overleveled, as I have no other choice, as otherwise my Cyndaquil would overlevel(note that I haven't tried it yet but I assume Solo Quil will perform excellent until Rival 2.
But hopefully you'll realize it yourself while reading this, right? Basically for the Pokemon I want to try, I either have play worse and dumb on purpose(Hoothoot) or use Mons like Geodude(S Tier early game) again so I meet all this arbitrary criteria.

If you wonder how I concluded my opinion about this simple statement: Think a bit ahead, and don't only take statements at face-value. Think about what a same-level-training-schedule actually implies.

On that note:
3.
I always interpreted the tier list in a way in which you either see the Pokemon long-term or short-term for its viability.

Easy to understand examples for long-term:

• Abra
• Spearow(Trade)

Easy to understand examples for short-term

• Geodude(Badge 1-4)
• Ho-Oh(G)
• Rayquaza(Emerald; Elite Four incase this isn't known so well.)

Now I am not saying the tier list needs special mention of the above concept; but the paragraph/write up for the mons often states this actuallly:
"great earlygame but..." "unstoppable but you catch it late etc."
--> Short Term
"lol Abra punches everything" "Spearow fast normal type, second stab, grows fast"
--> Long Term
4.
With all this in mind and understanding how you can build your teams according to my opinion...
I think this explains why aegon the unlikely was so adamant about using the Rare Candies at exactly that point: He*, unlike all against his opinion, realized that in this thread everybody posts first of all like the "Post"Game doesn't matter, therefore there is no point in holding onto the Rare Candies and secondly that Thyplosion, if used like described, is actually better than Magmar, an A Rank in Gold and Silver.
Note that I haven't tried the Fire Starter yet, so take my opinion on that matter as unexperienced. However unlike most of you fellas I will provide screenshots of my endeavors when I finally use it.
Also I was mind-blown about not thinking about the Rare Candies as a resource before. Too bad it devolved so quickly into a fight between members despite this being great insight I didn't see mentioned in threads like that. Also it lead to a hilarious comment that we should save Rare Candies for Red. Lol. Red makes tier lists pointless anyways, no need to argue for him saving up resources.
5.
On that note I want to point something else about level-balance, even if it doesn't have to do much with the main bulk of my post.(feel free to ignore the following rambling, just wanted to add it):
Even our S-Tier Prince Feraligatr is kinda meh if you don't level him sufficiently and put him level-wise above your opponents. His Surf and Ice Punch is among the weakest you can have in Jotho after all(79 Special Atk). I mean I want visual proof about an underleveled or rather fairly-leveled(!!) Feraligatr cleaning house in Jotho. An S Tier should make this easy to demonstrate(For example Abra is a very easy-to-understand example). And no Cheese-Strats, otherwise I would count my Quick Claw Magnitude 10 // Self-Destruct Golem vs Clair a viable strat/ S-tier strat.

Long Post over.
*I know we assume four mons now for the list; let's slap Pineco into the mix
**quote this part if you are offended by the gender pronoun. English language sucks.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

3. lol. pretty sure spearow is considered s-tier because of the traded one (i def believe untraded spearow isn't s-tier). geodude can be caught in the union cave at higher levels and immediately put to work there against the hikers and firebreathers for a quick level up anyway, which is my point.

Not really. There's a trade-off between Kenya the Traded Spearow and regular Spearow.

Regular has access to Return earlier and it's also getting happiness points since the beginning of the game, so it also has a stronger one than the Traded one initially.
There's also a massive availability advantage which includes Sprout Tower, Falkner (it's immune to Mud-Slap, which means you can use it as a pivot even if it isn't your main answer to Pidgeotto to reset Accuracy debuffs), and more importantly, Bugsy.

The traded one's advantages mainly lie on the boosted Exp, which is kind of a double-edged sword because less Exp per level-up means less Stat Exp per level-up, but it definitely helps as a mon that gets quick levels in a region starved for Exp.

Also, as Kurona posted (and I kinda overlooked being at work), most of your questions aren't directly tied to GSC, but rather the tiering process itself.

You should bring those arguments to this thread so they can be discussed at length by people across all In-Game Tiering Threads so that discussions don't run parallel to each other in the case of other people having the same ideas in other threads:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/in-game-tier-list-policy-discussion-thread.3616692/

Real-Life example: I want to build a team right now of Cyndaquil, Exeggutor(C) and Miltank, right? *

Same thread suggestion applies.

I do understand where you're coming from though, but there's a fairly simple adjustment.

Instead of going to Sprout Tower before Falkner, you can beat Falkner first so you're not *too* overleveled, and in case you are anyway, just note that advantage and disregard it for testing purposes.

Sprout Tower is optional to begin with in this game, HM05 is only used in Dark Cave, which is itself another optional area.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

This is going to be a long post:

1.
Can someone rationally explain why we choose a 4 Main Pokemon Team? Seems somewhat arbitrary. I have had the most success for making it casual with 3 for example. 4 spreads the EXP to thin, making battles against Trainers on Routes mandatory instead of optional if you want to test them.
2.
Also I read a very odd statement earlier:

What. What?
That sounds even more arbitrary, I would even say it sounds wrong.
Let's give an example about what I think about training everything equally before facing challenges.
Real-Life example: I want to build a team right now of Cyndaquil, Exeggutor(C) and Miltank, right? *

So according to such a statement and to make sure everything ends up in a ""similar"" level for this tier list, I have to use something I don't want to use, let's say Hoothoot, and use it for some battles before the first Gym and second gym as otherwise I would have overleveled, as I have no other choice, as otherwise my Cyndaquil would overlevel(note that I haven't tried it yet but I assume Solo Quil will perform excellent until Rival 2.
But hopefully you'll realize it yourself while reading this, right? Basically for the Pokemon I want to try, I either have play worse and dumb on purpose(Hoothoot) or use Mons like Geodude(S Tier early game) again so I meet all this arbitrary criteria.

If you wonder how I concluded my opinion about this simple statement: Think a bit ahead, and don't only take statements at face-value. Think about what a same-level-training-schedule actually implies.

On that note:
3.
I always interpreted the tier list in a way in which you either see the Pokemon long-term or short-term for its viability.

Easy to understand examples for long-term:

• Abra
• Spearow(Trade)

Easy to understand examples for short-term

• Geodude(Badge 1-4)
• Ho-Oh(G)
• Rayquaza(Emerald; Elite Four incase this isn't known so well.)

Now I am not saying the tier list needs special mention of the above concept; but the paragraph/write up for the mons often states this actuallly:
"great earlygame but..." "unstoppable but you catch it late etc."
--> Short Term
"lol Abra punches everything" "Spearow fast normal type, second stab, grows fast"
--> Long Term
4.
With all this in mind and understanding how you can build your teams according to my opinion...
I think this explains why aegon the unlikely was so adamant about using the Rare Candies at exactly that point: He*, unlike all against his opinion, realized that in this thread everybody posts first of all like the "Post"Game doesn't matter, therefore there is no point in holding onto the Rare Candies and secondly that Thyplosion, if used like described, is actually better than Magmar, an A Rank in Gold and Silver.
Note that I haven't tried the Fire Starter yet, so take my opinion on that matter as unexperienced. However unlike most of you fellas I will provide screenshots of my endeavors when I finally use it.
Also I was mind-blown about not thinking about the Rare Candies as a resource before. Too bad it devolved so quickly into a fight between members despite this being great insight I didn't see mentioned in threads like that. Also it lead to a hilarious comment that we should save Rare Candies for Red. Lol. Red makes tier lists pointless anyways, no need to argue for him saving up resources.
5.
On that note I want to point something else about level-balance, even if it doesn't have to do much with the main bulk of my post.(feel free to ignore the following rambling, just wanted to add it):
Even our S-Tier Prince Feraligatr is kinda meh if you don't level him sufficiently and put him level-wise above your opponents. His Surf and Ice Punch is among the weakest you can have in Jotho after all(79 Special Atk). I mean I want visual proof about an underleveled or rather fairly-leveled(!!) Feraligatr cleaning house in Jotho. An S Tier should make this easy to demonstrate(For example Abra is a very easy-to-understand example). And no Cheese-Strats, otherwise I would count my Quick Claw Magnitude 10 // Self-Destruct Golem vs Clair a viable strat/ S-tier strat.

Long Post over.
*I know we assume four mons now for the list; let's slap Pineco into the mix
**quote this part if you are offended by the gender pronoun. English language sucks.

1. i think 4 is basically the largest team size you can still get away with in johto sans crazy grinding. 3 would be even better as you said, but i think Random Passerby and others might feel 3 is too small a size to assume under the impression that people would rather have more pokemon.

2. agreed completely. there are times when trying to grind teammates equally is a terrible idea, such as when you're in a gym or a route with lots of pokemon that crush a teammate in combat due to serious type and/or level mismatches. for instance, it would be unreasonable to penalize someone for letting their geodude fall behind between olivine and cianwood, given the massive amount of pokemon who geodude does not enjoy fighting there (the sea route mons obv as well as jasmine and chuck themselves plus chuck's own gym trainers). likewise, some mons like hoothoot and sentret obviously suck in the early game to the point using them is inefficient in itself and will drag down your capable teammates too, in which case delaying their training after getting access to better training routes, tms, or even higher leveled versions of those pokemon is better.

3. i also think the short-term and long-term stuff could be talked about more. geodude is really good in the short-term and while he still does decently in the long-term, he has to avoid water and grass matchups like the plague, pretty much.

4. thank you for being more understanding than most. the idea of saving rare candies for red is a dumbfounding notion, given that you need like 20 rare candies just for one of your pokemon to be close to his and the most you can legally get - sans buena's password - is 12. my four pokemon were in the early l50s by the time i defeated blue (i didn't fight npc trainers much at all admittedly, and i do wonder if we even should given how time-consuming it is and how little experience it yields anyhow). the best time to use rare candies is logically when they're actually most useful, and that would be when the level curve is starting to get really bad but, unlike red, can still be managed. keep in mind i'm even willing to accept their arguments against ranking typhlosion higher because of this, but that doesn't mean the entire team also doesn't benefit from this strategy.

5. i think totodile deserves to be s-class, though mainly because he can somehow hit every major trainer at least very hard and has excellent tm access at convenient points in the game, allowing him to pulverize a lot of his matchups in a way no a-tiers can claim to. his actual special attack is underwhelming - not helped by ice punch's lower base power in relation to something like ice beam. then again, much of the same can be said for cyndaquil too, who's only really screwed against clair's kingdra and lance's dragonites as far as matchups go honestly. while totodile is much better than cyndaquil and deserving of s-tier, the gap isn't so big that cynda deserves to be all the way down in b (which is better fit for chikorita).

* quick tip if you want exeggutor - you can potentially get a leaf stone really early from picnicker gina outside goldenrod, though it might require some waiting and/or dst manipulation. however, i'd recommend waiting until l19 to pick up confusion, as that will be your only non-thief (lol) special move until you pick up solarbeam and solarbeam only comes after eight badges. if you evolve at l19, you will also get stomp immediately.

** no worries! i'm a dude, but thanks for asking.

Not really. There's a trade-off between Kenya the Traded Spearow and regular Spearow.

Regular has access to Return earlier and it's also getting happiness points since the beginning of the game, so it also has a stronger one than the Traded one initially.
There's also a massive availability advantage which includes Sprout Tower, Falkner (it's immune to Mud-Slap, which means you can use it as a pivot even if it isn't your main answer to Pidgeotto to reset Accuracy debuffs), and more importantly, Bugsy.

The traded one's advantages mainly lie on the boosted Exp, which is kind of a double-edged sword because less Exp per level-up means less Stat Exp per level-up, but it definitely helps as a mon that gets quick levels in a region starved for Exp.

Also, as Kurona posted (and I kinda overlooked being at work), most of your questions aren't directly tied to GSC, but rather the tiering process itself.

You should bring those arguments to this thread so they can be discussed at length by people across all In-Game Tiering Threads so that discussions don't run parallel to each other in the case of other people having the same ideas in other threads:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/in-game-tier-list-policy-discussion-thread.3616692/


Same thread suggestion applies.

I do understand where you're coming from though, but there's a fairly simple adjustment.

Instead of going to Sprout Tower before Falkner, you can beat Falkner first so you're not *too* overleveled, and in case you are anyway, just note that advantage and disregard it for testing purposes.

Sprout Tower is optional to begin with in this game, HM05 is only used in Dark Cave, which is itself another optional area.

1. i understand there's a tradeoff, but it's more than worth it. you don't really need tm-return any time soon, given that tm-swift in my experience is more than powerful enough to carry you through the early and even mid-game (where you eventually get fly anyway). by the time you fight chuck your fearow will be very happy and can easily crush his pokemon with tm-return, at which point you're not really missing the earlier spearow. sprout tower, falkner, and bugsy are admittedly solid points in non-trade's favor but that's not good enough to peg them as equals. i never really felt any of the stat exp shortfall and the relatively small differences between stats at lower levels mean it's not really a point in non-trade spearow's favor.

2. why on earth should i beat falkner ''first''? i'm confused. the sprout tower is in the same location and their pokemon are overall far weaker than those of falkner's gym (to the point even totodile can beat the lower level sprouts without too hard a time in spite of the elemental disadvantage, whereas falkner's first gym trainer alone can immediately threaten your starter) - asking people to bring their pokemon to fight a much stronger opponent first is dubious and not becoming of a tier list that prizes efficiency. it's as if we're trying to make the game difficult at this point lol, and while i respect people who want a challenge - believe it or not, i'm all for nuzlockes and level caps and all that - we are here to make things easier.

even though elder li's hoothoot is l10 and falkner's pidgeotto is l9, hoothoot is pretty much fodder apart from high special bulk whereas the pidgeotto can be a legitimate monster with greater stats relative to your mons even in spite of the lower levels, access to stab in gust, and access to the dreaded mud-slap. even the two dudes you fight before falkner are about as tough as li or even tougher, especially when fought back to back.

3. so? i thought your policy was to fight all the trainers in the game and just avoid grinding in the wild? sprout tower is literally right there, it's not like you're taking some massive detour before fighting falkner or something lol.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

trainers in the game and just avoid grinding in the wild?

This is my personal policy, but as I was corrected today outside of this thread, optional areas are considered detours and are not "efficient" because technically, you never had to do them to begin with, why are you messing with those?

Of course, between those and Wild Grinding, it's preferable to explore those optional areas and beat their trainers.

Tbh, I was a little shocked at it too, but it does make sense.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

This is my personal policy, but as I was corrected today outside of this thread, optional areas are considered detours and are not "efficient" because technically, you never had to do them to begin with, why are you messing with those?

Of course, between those and Wild Grinding, it's preferable to explore those optional areas and beat their trainers.

Tbh, I was a little shocked at it too, but it does make sense.

1. the idea that a detour that just involves beating up a bunch of low level bellsprouts and the occasional hoothoot seems strange. it's not particularly time consuming and in fact highly rewarding, both in terms of money as well as experience. this isn't some battle tower stuff. even penalizing a detour to union cave's lower half in a game which is notorious for its garbage tier level curve also comes off as incredibly unreasonable, and if we are supposed to adhere to ''efficiency'' so much then why even bother having more than maybe two pokemon (your starter and type coverage mon)?

2. agreed.

3. nah, i don't think so. it's one thing to not actively encourage grinding against trainers, but discouraging it sounds super unreasonable. at that point this ingame tier list is becoming a lot closer to a speedrun - my suggestion of slowing down your team size increase is a lot more modest.

if a pokemon can hypothetically ace falkner's gym with little to no training and/or item use, that's awesome (and only geodude as well as the traded onix can really pull this off). however, that's just a point in their favor, not an argument against avoiding the sprout tower.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

1. the idea that a detour that just involves beating up a bunch of low level bellsprouts and the occasional hoothoot seems strange. it's not particularly time consuming and in fact highly rewarding, both in terms of money as well as experience. this isn't some battle tower stuff. even penalizing a detour to union cave's lower half in a game which is notorious for its garbage tier level curve also comes off as incredibly unreasonable, and if we are supposed to adhere to ''efficiency'' so much then why even bother having more than maybe two pokemon (your starter and type coverage mon)?

Basically, this involves a bit of consistency.

Optional = Detour. The time used is of little concern for this definition, otherwise, we need to start specifying what is a "reasonable detour" and that is a whole other can of worms.

Yes, the Sprout Tower is right there, but even in-universe it's treated as a glorified grinding spot. There is no significant reward other than money and exp. Not that these are bad, mind you, but if you're beelining to the E4, you wouldn't take detours.

As for the team size... I already said my piece on the subject. Sure, if nothing early-game appeals to you, no problem, just keep in mind the overleveling rule when considering to write something about a major matchup.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Basically, this involves a bit of consistency.

Optional = Detour. The time used is of little concern for this definition, otherwise, we need to start specifying what is a "reasonable detour" and that is a whole other can of worms.

Yes, the Sprout Tower is right there, but even in-universe it's treated as a glorified grinding spot. There is no significant reward other than money and exp. Not that these are bad, mind you, but if you're beelining to the E4, you wouldn't take detours.

As for the team size... I already said my piece on the subject. Sure, if nothing early-game appeals to you, no problem, just keep in mind the overleveling rule when considering to write something about a major matchup.

1. does it though? i'm awaiting your answer to the question on the other thread.

2. catching more pokemon is optional too. why not just use your starter and maybe free pokemon (e.g. eevee, dratini, and master ball catches)? if a pokemon can do more with less, that's a point for them...specifically because they're the exception in that regard.

3. actually, if you want a better chance of beating the e4, you would take detours earlier in the game. every time i did, i was closer to them in ability.

4. fair.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

2. catching more pokemon is optional too. why not just use your starter and maybe free pokemon (e.g. eevee, dratini, and master ball catches)? if a pokemon can do more with less, that's a point for them...specifically because they're the exception in that regard.

The less mons, the more likely you'll be overleveled.

You got an Lv. 15 Quilava to prove it.

3. actually, if you want a better chance of beating the e4, you would take detours earlier in the game. every time i did, i was closer to them in ability.

Yes, and I would recognize that either:

A - The game's level curve failed to provide me with enough experience points across a reasonably-sized team on the shortest yet glitchless path possible.

B - I wasted time taking detours to bolster my chances against a major opponent, therefore, there was a cost to that boost.

1. does it though? i'm awaiting your answer to the question on the other thread.

Yes it does, I literally stated why in the line below, are you kidding me?

4. fair.

I try to.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

being able to compare how many exp. points translate to a specific level would be a huge boon for the tier list. sure, a l30 tauros will likely far outdo a l30 aipom in dealing damage...but it takes far more time for tauros to get to l30 than aipom. hypothetically speaking, it wouldn't be unheard of for your aipom to be sitting in the late l30s while tauros is still in the early l30s with the exact same experience points, at which point the power gap between them shrinks significantly. combine that with the fact both aipom and tauros come around l10 when you find them the first time but aipom comes much earlier and at a much closer level relative to your team, and aipom might ultimately have a superior offensive presence for you.

also, one thing i want to state for heracross is that they are very, very annoying to catch (as i have seen in many a nuzlocke). not only do they have a very low catch rate to the point i've run out of poke and great balls multiple times trying to capture them. in addition, you want to fight them in the daytime as they're asleep then and cannot flee while they're asleep - thankfully, and unlike the entei-raikou-suicune trio.

edit: just did the math for aipom and tauros. thanks to bulbapedia's handy exp. tables!

aipom needs 21,600 exp. points to hit l30 from l29, tauros 33,750.

if aipom had 33,750 exp. points, they'd be at l32 (they only need 32,768 to hit l32).

now it's time to input that into pokemon showdown's calculator against a l30 blank mew set.

Lvl 30 0 Atk Tauros Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 37-45 (33.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (37, 37, 39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 40, 40, 42, 42, 42, 43, 43, 43, 45)

Lvl 32 0 Atk Aipom Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 30-36 (27.5 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Possible damage amounts: (30, 30, 30, 31, 31, 31, 31, 33, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 34, 36)

take into account, however, the fact that aipom will likely be at a much higher level if you've been training them than a wild tauros will be so getting to l32 is easier than tauros to l30, and the fact that aipom - having spent much more time with you - will also likely be much happier than tauros will be. these two points should be able to bridge the damage roll difference between tauros and aipom if not reverse it.


now, let's go higher.

it takes 80,000 exp points to hit ll40 for tauros - that many exp points raises aipom to l46.

and...

Lvl 40 0 Atk Tauros Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 63-75 (57.7 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (63, 64, 64, 66, 66, 67, 67, 69, 69, 70, 70, 72, 72, 73, 73, 75)

Lvl 46 0 Atk Aipom Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 58-70 (53.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (58, 60, 60, 61, 61, 63, 63, 64, 64, 66, 66, 67, 67, 69, 69, 70)

not even that different, and the two may even hit for similar amounts of damage - in fact, aipom may even outdo tauros at times.

here are a few other pokemon compared to the duo. granbull is in the fast exp group, raticate and furret mid-high, miltank low, and stantler low.

also added stantler, another slow growth mon.

Lvl 46 0 Atk Granbull Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 62-73 (56.8 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - just slightly behind tauros
Possible damage amounts: (62, 62, 63, 64, 64, 65, 66, 67, 67, 68, 69, 70, 70, 71, 72, 73)

Lvl 43 0 Atk Raticate Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 58-70 (53.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO - same as aipom
Possible damage amounts: (58, 60, 60, 61, 61, 63, 63, 64, 64, 66, 66, 67, 67, 69, 69, 70)

Lvl 43 0 Atk Furret Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 57-67 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO - lower than aipom
Possible damage amounts: (57, 57, 58, 58, 60, 60, 60, 61, 61, 63, 63, 64, 64, 66, 66, 67)

Lvl 40 0 Atk Miltank Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 52-63 (47.7 - 57.7%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO - worst of the lot
Possible damage amounts: (52, 54, 54, 54, 55, 55, 57, 57, 58, 58, 58, 60, 60, 61, 61, 63)

Lvl 40 0 Atk Stantler Return vs. Lvl 30 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 60-72 (55 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - only second to tauros
Possible damage amounts: (60, 61, 61, 63, 63, 64, 64, 66, 66, 67, 67, 69, 69, 70, 70, 72)

therefore, strictly attack power-wise and accounting for equal exp, we have...

tauros > stantler > granbull > aipom = raticate > furret > miltank

bear in mind that aipom, rattata, gs stantler, and sentret all come relatively early. in crystal, snubbull comes pretty early too - gs snubbull can be found in a swarm and iirc swarms can be made reliable enough by using the dst trick. tauros, crystal stantler, and miltank come...later. this further cements miltank's position at the back of the line, while narrowing the gap between tauros and the other four.

i think based on this list, furret should go above or in the same tier as miltank (or miltank dropped to furret's tier) due to being capable of everything miltank is (minus earthquake) and being better in every way. i think granbull should be in a or b and aipom maybe at least b.

also, it looks like i made a good call by going for stantler and not miltank lol (would love to try aipom even more now too). thoughts?

Random Passerby Pokeron Xator_Nova

 

[Random Passerby]

Normal-type mons stuff

Yeah, I did mention that Snubbull may deserve a raise in Crystal but it doesn't receive any support so I did nothing. I understand your point about Aipom vs Tauros (see my response to you in the other thread). In-game tier list does punish those Slow EXP groups but we do not ration out the EXP. That has been the way it is. Maybe someone can give you a better answer there.

2. catching more pokemon is optional too. why not just use your starter and maybe free pokemon (e.g. eevee, dratini, and master ball catches)? if a pokemon can do more with less, that's a point for them...specifically because they're the exception in that regard.

Yup that's why Alakazam, Nidoking, Feraligatr are ranked highly compared to others who has a bit of a rough patch.

3. actually, if you want a better chance of beating the e4, you would take detours earlier in the game. every time i did, i was closer to them in ability.

I think detours are fine actually as long as it is not too big of a detour such as Karate King in Mt. Mortar. Something like Bell Tower, and Route 34 sisters are short detours and doesn't warrant punishing mons. What I meant much earlier about Cyndaquil is if you play that way, you don't add early mons at all because it is more efficient for your chosen team. This is fine but generally, people might want to add early mons and we try to cater to a wide player base. You may disagree but I don't see a way to resolve this without a thread derail so let's leave it at that.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Yeah, I did mention that Snubbull may deserve a raise in Crystal but it doesn't receive any support so I did nothing. I understand your point about Aipom vs Tauros (see my response to you in the other thread). In-game tier list does punish those Slow EXP groups but we do not ration out the EXP. That has been the way it is. Maybe someone can give you a better answer there.


Yup that's why Alakazam, Nidoking, Feraligatr are ranked highly compared to others who has a bit of a rough patch.



I think detours are fine actually as long as it is not too big of a detour such as Karate King in Mt. Mortar. Something like Bell Tower, and Route 34 sisters are short detours and doesn't warrant punishing mons. What I meant much earlier about Cyndaquil is if you play that way, you don't add early mons at all because it is more efficient for your chosen team. This is fine but generally, people might want to add early mons and we try to cater to a wide player base. You may disagree but I don't see a way to resolve this without a thread derail so let's leave it at that.

1. i think someone should test snubbull then. i could do it, but you'd have to wait. i'm not talking about rationing exp so much as i'm wondering whether aipom should be raised due to having very similar power while also benefiting your team more due to them having more exp to get as well as appearing reasonably early. their lack of moves and bulk is a problem, but they seem pretty much identical to raticate who's in b, so...

2. um, what? you literally need to buy abra from the game corner or catch one in the wild lol. nidoran too comes in the wild only.

3. thank you, that's much more reasonable. Volt-Ikazuchi, there you go, sprout tower's good.

 

[Random Passerby]

If you have no Water mons, I'd ask for you to test Seadra. Otherwise, I might do so myself next week.
Xator_Nova can you do it in your run? Then, we'll compare the results. If not, I'll just state my experiences here.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

If you have no Water mons, I'd ask for you to test Seadra. Otherwise, I might do so myself next week.

unfortunately, i'm already planning to acquire quagsire lol. sorry man.

however, if you have any mons you'd like me to test for a future run, fire away.

also, big news.

my l21 quilava just soloed whitney's team with fury cutter, no items or support needed. cyndaquil not a tier my foot. s tier or bust. /s

my l21 weepinbell evolved into victreebel, i got a phone call before the gym battle and evolved her on the spot (in hindsight i should've waited for acid at l24, but return should be on par with that if i can get it). i have not been able to procure tm-return for yet.

my pokemon are ''cute'' but not quite friendly enough for the tm. :(

edit: never mind, i got return lol. my quilava beating whitney was good enough apparently. also just caught l14 stantler, prongs, with a poke ball on my first try after whittling down with quilava's fury cutter + smokescreen (to prevent fury cutter from getting too strong) and sleeping with victreebel. prongs, whom i taught headbutt, grew to l18 just by battering all the trainers near goldenrod whom i missed. technically there are more and i haven't fought them yet, but he even destroyed the guy with the kadabra and the magmar man, even tanking confusion albeit in the yellow.

he's brutally strong and pretty bulky, at least for now in the game. that's a very good thing, and this kinda means tauros and miltank possess those qualities too - miltank being less strong but bulkier and faster and tauros being slightly stronger as well as faster. i can see why people like them a lot, although stantler somewhat surprised me by not being able to learn dig, but that's fine as now i feel less guilty about teaching it to quilava...

 

[Revelation]

If exp. is so valuable and scarce that we have to limit to 4 mon teams for this tier list project, even though most players outside of it use 6 mons, I think I actually do agree with judging them from an exp. POV instead of level.

 

[Xator_Nova]

If you have no Water mons, I'd ask for you to test Seadra. Otherwise, I might do so myself next week.
Xator_Nova can you do it in your run? Then, we'll compare the results. If not, I'll just state my experiences here.

it'd have to be next run though since i'm already past the point of getting seadra in my current playthrough
if you want to i can try next run. are there other three mons you'd like me to test?-

edit: just did the math for aipom and tauros. thanks to bulbapedia's handy exp. tables!

aipom needs 21,600 exp. points to hit l30 from l29, tauros 33,750.

if aipom had 33,750 exp. points, they'd be at l32 (they only need 32,768 to hit l32).

aipom belongs to the fast experience group, so aipom would be lv34, close to lv35

 

[cherryb0ng]

I tried paying attention to this but it is hard to take this thread seriously.

Can someone explain to me why overlevelling is bad? It sounds like the you guys are trying really hard to make this standout from speedrunning.

I don't mind this per se, but a few arguments about levelling up or "external assistance" not being allowed don't help someone who might want to try this understand why it's important for you. You can simply say you want the play through to feel unique and not to be in the veins of a speedrun but to try and make the play through cost efficient.

 

[Punchshroom]

I tried paying attention to this but it is hard to take this thread seriously.

Can someone explain to me why overlevelling is bad? It sounds like the you guys are trying really hard to make this standout from speedrunning.

I don't mind this per se, but a few arguments about levelling up or "external assistance" not being allowed don't help someone who might want to try this understand why it's important for you. You can simply say you want the play through to feel unique and not to be in the veins of a speedrun but to try and make the play through cost efficient.

Overleveling to beat a boss can be done by literally any Pokemon so it doesn't really attribute to a mon's overall ranking at all. Which of course leads to the consensus that if a mon does not need to overlevel by much/at all to beat a boss, it gets weighted accordingly to mons who need to overlevel to beat a boss. From what I can see so far, Quilava falls into the category of having a greater reliance of overleveling compared to pretty much all of the A tiers for me to comfortably agree to rank Cyndaquil alongside them.

Simply put, the less time you spend grinding levels or the less resources you spend to power up your mons (this includes both Rare Candies and the cash to buy expensive TMs), the better. Overleveling is the indication that the mon needs an excessive amount of resources to do well. For that matter, we also do not try to factor overleveling into the equation even when concerning "solo Pokemon runs", and we assume that solo mon is still operating on more or less equal levels to the boss fights despite getting all the experience to itself; if anything, solo runs that end up being overleveled don't factor much into ranking the mon either.

 

[DHR-107]

If exp. is so valuable and scarce that we have to limit to 4 mon teams for this tier list project, even though most players outside of it use 6 mons, I think I actually do agree with judging them from an exp. POV instead of level.

We put this "limit" on because the vast majority of players would probably want to play with 6 mons. To stop us from being totally off mark with a lot of the list, we try and keep a reasonable amount of mons available in any particular play through. Ofc, the smaller your team (with appropriate coverage) the higher level you'll be (and therefore better off), but that gets to a point where it twists rankings wildly out of order compared to others as Punchshroom said.

If you play with less mons, you're always going to get better results with those mons, in any tier list at all.

 

[Xator_Nova]

Rival (Goldenrod Tunnel)

Quilava Lv34 (w/ Charcoal | Bitter Berry): Flame Wheel 3HKOs Golbat, 2HKOs Haunter and Sneasel, and OHKOs Magnemite. Sadly, Quilava 5HKOs Feraligatr with Strength, while Feraligatr 2HKOs with Water Gun. With the Rollout TM however, Quilava 3HKOs Golbat, and the fourth hit 2HKOs Feraligatr.

Raticate Lv32 (w/ Pink Bow): Raticate can't defeat Haunter without a TM. Strength 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, and 3HKOs Feraligatr and Magnemite. Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter. Dig 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite.

Furret Lv32 (w/ Pink Bow). Strength 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, and 3HKOs Feraligatr. Surf 3HKOs Haunter. Fire Punch 2HKOs Magnemite. Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter. Dig 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite.

Tauros Lv29 (w/ Pink Bow): Strength 3HKOs Feraligatr, and 2HKOs Sneasel, Golbat. Surf 4HKOs Haunter.

Clair

Typhlosion Lv38 (w/Pink Bow | PRZCureBerry): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 4HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 3HKOs with Surf, and Kingdra 2HKOs. Rollout 3HKOs Dragonair, and the 4th Rollout 2HKOs Kingdra, although defeating Kingdra can be disrupted by a miss or paralysis.

Raticate Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 4HKOs with Surf, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Kingdra 2HKOs with Surf.

Furret Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow | PRZCureBerry): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 4HKOs with Surf, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Kingdra 2HKOs with Surf. Defense Curl with Rollout allows Furret to defeat the first three Dragonairs, but paralysis can disrupt the strategy (a sweep is possible at Lv40).

Tauros Lv32 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 4HKOs with Surf, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Kingdra 2HKOs with Surf.

Rival (Victory Road)

Typhlosion Lv40 (w/ Charcoal): Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel, Magneton and Haunter, and 2HKOs Golbat (OHKO with Sunny Day). Return OHKOs Kadabra. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Feraligatr. Fire Blast OHKOs Golbat.

Raticate Lv38 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Feraligatr and Magneton. Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter. Dig 2HKOs Magneton and Haunter (probably a range for a OHKO?)

Furret Lv38 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Feraligatr. Surf 3HKOs Haunter. Fire Punch 2HKOs Magneton. Dig 2HKOs Magneton and Haunter (probably a range for a OHKO?). Without a TM to target Haunter, Curse can disrupt the sweep.

Tauros Lv34 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Feraligatr and Magneton. Surf 4HKOs Haunter. Earthquake OHKOs Magneton and Haunter. Fire Blast 2HKOs Magneton and 3HKOs Haunter. Without a TM to target Haunter, Curse can disrupt the sweep.

Once the player gets access to the Goldenrod TMs or the Earthquake TM, it feels like Tauros can overtake the other normals in terms of available options (and the Earthquake TM is much better than the Dig TM). However I feel like the period of time where Tauros feels inferior to the others is significant enough to make it the inferior choice. Also, Tauros has 177 friendship, which means that its Strength still hits harder than Return, something that isn't the case with the others (their Return has 93 base power)

Typhlosion also evolves way too late. Typhlosion by itself seems excellent - however the first major battle I've had it for was Clair, which isn't a good match-up. I also got enough money for the Fire Blast TM by the time I defeated the Rockets at Goldenrod.

only the pokémon league remains

EDIT: aegon the unlikely i think there are some mistakes in your calcs - it didn't make sense to me that granbull, a pokémon with +20 base attack over tauros, inflicts less damage than tauros being six levels higher


Lvl 40 Tauros Return vs. Lvl 30 Celebi: 63-75 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (63, 64, 64, 64, 65, 65, 65, 65, 66, 66, 66, 67, 67, 67, 67, 68, 68, 68, 69, 69, 69, 70, 70, 70, 70, 71, 71, 71, 72, 72, 72, 72, 73, 73, 73, 74, 74, 74, 75)

Lvl 46 Aipom Return vs. Lvl 30 Celebi: 63-75 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (63, 64, 64, 64, 65, 65, 65, 65, 66, 66, 66, 67, 67, 67, 67, 68, 68, 68, 69, 69, 69, 70, 70, 70, 70, 71, 71, 71, 72, 72, 72, 72, 73, 73, 73, 74, 74, 74, 75)

Lvl 46 Granbull Return vs. Lvl 30 Celebi: 91-108 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (91, 92, 92, 93, 93, 94, 94, 94, 95, 95, 96, 96, 96, 97, 97, 98, 98, 99, 99, 99, 100, 100, 101, 101, 102, 102, 102, 103, 103, 104, 104, 105, 105, 105, 106, 106, 107, 107, 108)

EDIT 2: starting to get convinced of snubbull (crystal) A tier because of the above calculations. it even learns bite for ghosts, ice punch for rock|grounds and fire punch for steels without the need of one-use or expensive TMs. why is it C?

 

[cherryb0ng]

Overleveling to beat a boss can be done by literally any Pokemon so it doesn't really attribute to a mon's overall ranking at all. Which of course leads to the consensus that if a mon does not need to overlevel by much/at all to beat a boss, it gets weighted accordingly to mons who need to overlevel to beat a boss. From what I can see so far, Quilava falls into the category of having a greater reliance of overleveling compared to pretty much all of the A tiers for me to comfortably agree to rank Cyndaquil alongside them.

Simply put, the less time you spend grinding levels or the less resources you spend to power up your mons (this includes both Rare Candies and the cash to buy expensive TMs), the better. Overleveling is the indication that the mon needs an excessive amount of resources to do well. For that matter, we also do not try to factor overleveling into the equation even when concerning "solo Pokemon runs", and we assume that solo mon is still operating on more or less equal levels to the boss fights despite getting all the experience to itself; if anything, solo runs that end up being overleveled don't factor much into ranking the mon either.

Ok that makes it a lot more interesting. I thought it was just arbitrary.

 

[ASMRxism]

The level vs. exp distinction is interesting, but it seems odd to say that EXP is the way to measure rather than level. When I'm training my team to manage levels, I'm not saying "okay, Butterfree has gotten 1,000 exp, time to use Rhyhorn for 1,000 exp." I'm saying "Butterfree leveled up, let's level up Rhyhorn now".

Fast vs. slow EXP should definitely be a significant factor in tiering, as it's obviously a major aspect of efficiency. But using these to determine levels for damage calcs and such seems misguided because in a normal playthrough, the fast EXP Pokemon won't actually be several levels higher than the slow EXP mon, it'll just take less effort to match the level of the party, since that is what I'm assuming is a typical playthrough (keeping the team generally at the same or similar levels).

In general, I think this thread has lost the... uh, thread as to who this list is for. My experience finding it, as I'm guessing most people's would be, is as a guide on ingame viability for a typical playthrough, which doesn't involve lengthy calculations, detours, or unintuitive practices. They probably won't read too far past the list in the OP and won't think to divide EXP equally rather than levels, catch Pokemon at later times than they first appear, or use items like TMs and Rare Candies too much later after they obtain them rather than on whatever they're most useful for at the time. They just need a list that gives them a rough idea if the Pokemon they encountered in the wild is worth putting in their party or if it's just Dex filler.

You might argue that this type of player is too casual, but who is this list for if not a casual player? An optimal player looking to speedrun has no use for a list like this, they'd need a single Pokemon speedrun like RBY Nidoking or something. I think this, just like any writing, should have its reader in mind first and foremost, and as we get into such overly technical discussion, we risk reaching answers that are technically correct and practically useless.

So while yes, a level 46 Aipom and a level 40 Tauros might have comparable damage output, is anyone actually playing the game that way? The math may be valid, but is it useful?

(Sorry if this might be better discussed in the general tiering thread, but it seems like an issue afflicting this thread in particular).

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Rival (Goldenrod Tunnel)

Quilava Lv34 (w/ Charcoal | Bitter Berry): Flame Wheel 3HKOs Golbat, 2HKOs Haunter and Sneasel, and OHKOs Magnemite. Sadly, Quilava 5HKOs Feraligatr with Strength, while Feraligatr 2HKOs with Water Gun. With the Rollout TM however, Quilava 3HKOs Golbat, and the fourth hit 2HKOs Feraligatr.

Raticate Lv32 (w/ Pink Bow): Raticate can't defeat Haunter without a TM. Strength 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, and 3HKOs Feraligatr and Magnemite. Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter. Dig 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite.

Furret Lv32 (w/ Pink Bow). Strength 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel, and 3HKOs Feraligatr. Surf 3HKOs Haunter. Fire Punch 2HKOs Magnemite. Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter. Dig 2HKOs Haunter and OHKOs Magnemite.

Tauros Lv29 (w/ Pink Bow): Strength 3HKOs Feraligatr, and 2HKOs Sneasel, Golbat. Surf 4HKOs Haunter.

Clair

Typhlosion Lv38 (w/Pink Bow | PRZCureBerry): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 4HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 3HKOs with Surf, and Kingdra 2HKOs. Rollout 3HKOs Dragonair, and the 4th Rollout 2HKOs Kingdra, although defeating Kingdra can be disrupted by a miss or paralysis.

Raticate Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 4HKOs with Surf, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Kingdra 2HKOs with Surf.

Furret Lv36 (w/ Pink Bow | PRZCureBerry): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 4HKOs with Surf, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Kingdra 2HKOs with Surf. Defense Curl with Rollout allows Furret to defeat the first three Dragonairs, but paralysis can disrupt the strategy (a sweep is possible at Lv40).

Tauros Lv32 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Kingdra. Dragonair 4HKOs with Surf, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Kingdra 2HKOs with Surf.

Rival (Victory Road)

Typhlosion Lv40 (w/ Charcoal): Fire Punch OHKOs Sneasel, Magneton and Haunter, and 2HKOs Golbat (OHKO with Sunny Day). Return OHKOs Kadabra. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Feraligatr. Fire Blast OHKOs Golbat.

Raticate Lv38 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Feraligatr and Magneton. Shadow Ball OHKOs Haunter. Dig 2HKOs Magneton and Haunter (probably a range for a OHKO?)

Furret Lv38 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Feraligatr. Surf 3HKOs Haunter. Fire Punch 2HKOs Magneton. Dig 2HKOs Magneton and Haunter (probably a range for a OHKO?). Without a TM to target Haunter, Curse can disrupt the sweep.

Tauros Lv34 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra, 2HKOs Golbat, 3HKOs Feraligatr and Magneton. Surf 4HKOs Haunter. Earthquake OHKOs Magneton and Haunter. Fire Blast 2HKOs Magneton and 3HKOs Haunter. Without a TM to target Haunter, Curse can disrupt the sweep.

Once the player gets access to the Goldenrod TMs or the Earthquake TM, it feels like Tauros can overtake the other normals in terms of available options (and the Earthquake TM is much better than the Dig TM). However I feel like the period of time where Tauros feels inferior to the others is significant enough to make it the inferior choice. Also, Tauros has 177 friendship, which means that its Strength still hits harder than Return, something that isn't the case with the others (their Return has 93 base power)

Typhlosion also evolves way too late. Typhlosion by itself seems excellent - however the first major battle I've had it for was Clair, which isn't a good match-up. I also got enough money for the Fire Blast TM by the time I defeated the Rockets at Goldenrod.

only the pokémon league remains

EDIT: aegon the unlikely i think there are some mistakes in your calcs - it didn't make sense to me that granbull, a pokémon with +20 base attack over tauros, inflicts less damage than tauros being six levels higher


Lvl 40 Tauros Return vs. Lvl 30 Celebi: 63-75 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (63, 64, 64, 64, 65, 65, 65, 65, 66, 66, 66, 67, 67, 67, 67, 68, 68, 68, 69, 69, 69, 70, 70, 70, 70, 71, 71, 71, 72, 72, 72, 72, 73, 73, 73, 74, 74, 74, 75)

Lvl 46 Aipom Return vs. Lvl 30 Celebi: 63-75 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (63, 64, 64, 64, 65, 65, 65, 65, 66, 66, 66, 67, 67, 67, 67, 68, 68, 68, 69, 69, 69, 70, 70, 70, 70, 71, 71, 71, 72, 72, 72, 72, 73, 73, 73, 74, 74, 74, 75)

Lvl 46 Granbull Return vs. Lvl 30 Celebi: 91-108 (77.1 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (91, 92, 92, 93, 93, 94, 94, 94, 95, 95, 96, 96, 96, 97, 97, 98, 98, 99, 99, 99, 100, 100, 101, 101, 102, 102, 102, 103, 103, 104, 104, 105, 105, 105, 106, 106, 107, 107, 108)

EDIT 2: starting to get convinced of snubbull (crystal) A tier because of the above calculations. it even learns bite for ghosts, ice punch for rock|grounds and fire punch for steels without the need of one-use or expensive TMs. why is it C?

the fact 3/4 of your team is well below the e4's weakest pokemon is proof you want (if not need) those optional trainers and this anti-overleveling rage is just pure bunk lol. like what kind of tier list encourages people to not overlevel in a game where the level curve even prevents it anyway?

also, before someone accuses me of doing so again on flimsy grounds, i'm not saying that to be mean - having had an unconscious rule of always being >= the level of the next boss's strongest pokemon by the time of fighting them (barring exceptions like the e4 and champions), i find it genuinely dumbfounding to discourage people from leveling their pokemon up when it's easy and takes no time.

good catch with granbull! not sure what happened there.

The level vs. exp distinction is interesting, but it seems odd to say that EXP is the way to measure rather than level. When I'm training my team to manage levels, I'm not saying "okay, Butterfree has gotten 1,000 exp, time to use Rhyhorn for 1,000 exp." I'm saying "Butterfree leveled up, let's level up Rhyhorn now".

Fast vs. slow EXP should definitely be a significant factor in tiering, as it's obviously a major aspect of efficiency. But using these to determine levels for damage calcs and such seems misguided because in a normal playthrough, the fast EXP Pokemon won't actually be several levels higher than the slow EXP mon, it'll just take less effort to match the level of the party, since that is what I'm assuming is a typical playthrough (keeping the team generally at the same or similar levels).

In general, I think this thread has lost the... uh, thread as to who this list is for. My experience finding it, as I'm guessing most people's would be, is as a guide on ingame viability for a typical playthrough, which doesn't involve lengthy calculations, detours, or unintuitive practices. They probably won't read too far past the list in the OP and won't think to divide EXP equally rather than levels, catch Pokemon at later times than they first appear, or use items like TMs and Rare Candies too much later after they obtain them rather than on whatever they're most useful for at the time. They just need a list that gives them a rough idea if the Pokemon they encountered in the wild is worth putting in their party or if it's just Dex filler.

You might argue that this type of player is too casual, but who is this list for if not a casual player? An optimal player looking to speedrun has no use for a list like this, they'd need a single Pokemon speedrun like RBY Nidoking or something. I think this, just like any writing, should have its reader in mind first and foremost, and as we get into such overly technical discussion, we risk reaching answers that are technically correct and practically useless.

So while yes, a level 46 Aipom and a level 40 Tauros might have comparable damage output, is anyone actually playing the game that way? The math may be valid, but is it useful?

(Sorry if this might be better discussed in the general tiering thread, but it seems like an issue afflicting this thread in particular).

you're overthinking this. casual fans can simply be told that tauros takes too long to level up relative to aipom, which means all things considered aipom hits about as hard as tauros. they can also be told that experience is limited in this game and using aipom means their other teammates will have far more experience to share than if they used tauros instead. this is nintendo level handholding i'm seeing from your post, my man, if people are capable of looking up a tier list in the first place they're capable of understanding it. ''casual players'' still use walkthroughs and websites to help themselves, i know i did when i was a kid and i know i still did when i grew older. don't underestimate them.

the other issue is that aipom will level up more than tauros no matter what for the same experience points. you will be benefiting from aipom's fast exp. group directly and indirectly whether or not you realize it, and you will be hurt by tauros's slow exp. group whether or not you realize it. it may be true that people don't care about exp. groups if they're casual players, but it's also true that in no way stops them from mattering. they do.

and yeah, the math is absolutely useful when it means your other pokemon get to evolve, learn more moves, and just straight up perform better than if they would if one pokemon was taking too much exp to raise. that's a pretty huge benefit you're overlooking. again, this is a generation which is notoriously stingy when it comes to experience, a game where you're already being encouraged to have 4 mons and yet even those 4 mons are struggling to keep up with major bosses (and i don't even mean red/blue/lance, i mean jasmine and will) without out-of-the-way experience.

i'm doing my current run not only to assess stantler, cyndaquil (w/o rare candy amp), and mid-game quagsire but also to see how having a slow growth pokemon affects the team's average levels relative to something like trade-spearow which is essentially a fast growth pokemon.

Random Passerby, as an aside, here are some tiering thoughts i had:

- Spearow should be divided into Spearow (Trade) and Spearow (Wild). The former should stay in S but the latter should drop to A. The former gets boosted experience on top of already being a mid-high growth Pokemon, making them not only much better than normal but also indirectly benefiting your entire team by making more experience available to them. They don't benefit from Return as early as Spearow (Wild) but they can hit more than hard enough with Swift at that point in the game and by the time you fight Chuck or so, can get and hit hard with Return anyway. The lack of stat exp isn't really a big deal given that being at higher levels with similar levels of exp already counterbalances that.

Spearow (Wild) is basically a Rattata with marginally higher Attack (60 > 56 and when evolved, 90 > 81), easier grinding against Sprout Tower, and a better performance against Bugsy due to resisting Fury Cutter. Bear in mind that Hyper Fang is more than x2 the power of Peck (80 > 35), making it even stronger than a super-effective Peck (80 > 70). Even with the badge boosts taken into account, Rattata does at least as much damage bp wise - a badge boosted super-effective Peck does have 70 x 1.125 x 1.125 = 89 base power while a badge boosted neutral Hyper Fang has 80 x 1.125 = 90 base power. That's nice, but it doesn't seem nice enough to justify Fearow being two tiers above Raticate IMHO. I think even a full tier ahead is pushing it, given that Raticate at least gets stuff like Dig to throw at enemy gyms like Morty's and Jasmine's. They also hit a lot harder faster in the early game.

For another comparison, while Spearow evolves much earlier than Pidgey does into their final form, Pidgey at least picks up Wing Attack naturally to throw at Chuck's Fighting types while Fearow's Return is his best move - Peck isn't good enough. Yet a super-effective Wing Attack > a neutral max happiness Return (120 > 102), and this remains constant as both Pidgeotto and Fearow get badge and stat boosts by the time of this fight. It's not even clear if your Fearow - traded or otherwise - will be at max happiness by that point. Even if you take into account Fearow's admittedly higher Attack (90 > 60), Pidgeotto would outdamage Fearow while being only slightly weaker bulk-wise.

 

[ASMRxism]

also, before someone accuses me of doing so again on flimsy grounds, i'm not saying that to be mean

...

i find it genuinely dumbfounding to discourage people from leveling their pokemon up when it's easy and takes no time.

1) starting a sentence with "I'm not trying to be mean" and then italicizing the mean part is still being mean. You can't just say "no offense but..."

2) unless you're talking about rare candies, leveling up does take time.

3) who is discouraging people from leveling their Pokemon? people are saying that optional leveling areas aren't taken into account. This is a straw man.

That said, I also generally agree with the sentiment of "Pokemon to match the upcoming boss," but the imperfect AI and movesets make this less than mandatory. This is speculation but I'd guess most Elite Four completions are underleveled in most runs of plenty of games, not just GSC, as there's usually a significant level spike from the 8th leader to the Elite Four and only Victory Road between it.

you're overthinking this. casual fans can simply be told that tauros takes too long to level up relative to aipom, which means all things considered aipom hits about as hard as tauros. they can also be told that experience is limited in this game and using aipom means their other teammates will have far more experience to share than if they used tauros instead.

So in other words, "Fast vs. slow EXP should definitely be a significant factor in tiering, as it's obviously a major aspect of efficiency."

Yes, I know. What you said is relevant, and it's also essentially what I said, but in more words. Damage calculations of different Pokemon at different levels assuming the same EXP, however, is not.

this is nintendo level handholding i'm seeing from your post, my man, if people are capable of looking up a tier list in the first place they're capable of understanding it. ''casual players'' still use walkthroughs and websites to help themselves, i know i did when i was a kid and i know i still did when i grew older. don't underestimate them.

This seems to be a response to something you think I said that I did not. I explicitly said these guides would be used by casual players, not that they won't.

the other issue is that aipom will level up more than tauros no matter what for the same experience points. you will be benefiting from aipom's fast exp. group directly and indirectly whether or not you realize it, and you will be hurt by tauros's slow exp. group whether or not you realize it. it may be true that people don't care about exp. groups if they're casual players, but it's also true that in no way stops them from mattering. they do.

And yeah, the math is absolutely useful when it means your other pokemon get to evolve, learn more moves, and just straight up perform better than if they would if one pokemon was taking too much exp to raise. that's a pretty huge benefit you're overlooking

This is also a response to an argument I did not make.

Yes, Pokemon with Fast EXP level more efficiently in a normal playthrough. However, as you ignored in my post, what probably won't happen in a normal playthrough is a fast EXP Pokemon being 6 levels higher than a slow Pokemon, so comparing their damage outputs at different levels isn't actually a practical application of damage calculation. What is likelier to happen is that the team with lower exp requirements will be the same or similar levels as each other, and maybe 1-2 levels higher than a party with more EXP requirements. That difference might be significant and relevant, butt Aipom being as strong as Tauros when it's 6 levels higher is not, since these Pokemon will probably not actually be 6 levels apart at the same point of a playthrough.

I did not say that the math of different EXP rates doesn't matter and did not overlook anything you accused me of overlooking. You mischaracterized almost my entire post while ignoring what I actually said.

On a side note, people might take your arguments more seriously than they have so far in this thread if you didn't feel the need to write so condescendingly all the time. The constant snark and obnoxious bolding and italics makes you sound less credible, not more. Reflect on what I said about considering the reader when you write.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

1) starting a sentence with "I'm not trying to be mean" and then italicizing the mean part is still being mean. You can't just say "no offense but..."

2) unless you're talking about rare candies, leveling up does take time.

3) who is discouraging people from leveling their Pokemon? people are saying that optional leveling areas aren't taken into account. This is a straw man.

That said, I also generally agree with the sentiment of "Pokemon to match the upcoming boss," but the imperfect AI and movesets make this less than mandatory. This is speculation but I'd guess most Elite Four completions are underleveled in most runs of plenty of games, not just GSC, as there's usually a significant level spike from the 8th leader to the Elite Four and only Victory Road between it.



So in other words, "Fast vs. slow EXP should definitely be a significant factor in tiering, as it's obviously a major aspect of efficiency."

Yes, I know. What you said is relevant, and it's also essentially what I said, but in more words. Damage calculations of different Pokemon at different levels assuming the same EXP, however, is not.



This seems to be a response to something you think I said that I did not. I explicitly said these guides would be used by casual players, not that they won't.



This is also a response to an argument I did not make.

Yes, Pokemon with Fast EXP level more efficiently in a normal playthrough. However, as you ignored in my post, what probably won't happen in a normal playthrough is a fast EXP Pokemon being 6 levels higher than a slow Pokemon, so comparing their damage outputs at different levels isn't actually a practical application of damage calculation. What is likelier to happen is that the team with lower exp requirements will be the same or similar levels as each other, and maybe 1-2 levels higher than a party with more EXP requirements. That difference might be significant and relevant, butt Aipom being as strong as Tauros when it's 6 levels higher is not, since these Pokemon will probably not actually be 6 levels apart at the same point of a playthrough.

I did not say that the math of different EXP rates doesn't matter and did not overlook anything you accused me of overlooking. You mischaracterized almost my entire post while ignoring what I actually said.

On a side note, people might take your arguments more seriously than they have so far in this thread if you didn't feel the need to write so condescendingly all the time. The constant snark and obnoxious bolding and italics makes you sound less credible, not more. Reflect on what I said about considering the reader when you write.

1) bruh, i'm italicizing it because i want to emphasize it. stop getting offended for no reason lol.

2) better to take time leveling up than getting walloped by an opponent you could've easily beaten by...leveling up, i say. besides, you need time for everything, and if you want to argue against time, we may as well make this a speedrun...after all, that's the fastest kind of run there is.

3) i agree it's less than mandatory, but nevertheless it's a good practice, not just for major bosses but also guys like the rocket tower thugs.

4) but damage calculations are part of the whole picture, so excluding them is not a great idea. if i can do more damage with aipom than furret more easily (or more efficiently)...why should i not consider aipom above furret in at least that regard? why should that be forgotten?

5) my apologies.

6) why wouldn't they be 6 levels higher though for the same experience? curious.

7) bruh, i'm bolding and italicizing to get my point across. it's more ''efficient'' lol. y'all are the ones attacking my character, whereas all i've done is attack your arguments (which is kind of justified given our mutual goal), and it's been constructive if harsh so far. i want the same thing y'all do, which is to make this a good tier list that players can benefit from on their adventure and also enjoy doing it.

8) are there any tier placements you think should change? i think weepinbell's early evolution access (evolves at l21) plus quick access to the leaf stone upon hitting goldenrod and tm-return (albeit you might need to fight whitney's gym and get a haircut or two first) are some really cool perks that, its other issues notwithstanding, make it deserving of a b-ranking imo. it can hit hard enough with return and growth-vine whip combos until it picks up sludge bomb, and sleep powder is really clutch for a lot of matchups as well as capturing low catch rate mons like stantler. i'm still testing them out, though the fact they can potentially sweep whitney - sleep powder the clefairy and build up some growths then go to town - is amazing.

they can also get a good matchup against chuck and pryce, sleep powder helping with the last, and aren't bad against jasmine whose magnemites are resisted and can be used as growth fodder. clair too won't appreciate being sleep powdered and then barraged with growth boosted whips.

 

[Xator_Nova]

the fact 3/4 of your team is well below the e4's weakest pokemon is proof you want (if not need) those optional trainers and this anti-overleveling rage is just pure bunk lol. like what kind of tier list encourages people to not overlevel in a game where the level curve even prevents it anyway?

also, before someone accuses me of doing so again on flimsy grounds, i'm not saying that to be mean - having had an unconscious rule of always being >= the level of the next boss's strongest pokemon by the time of fighting them (barring exceptions like the e4 and champions), i find it genuinely dumbfounding to discourage people from leveling their pokemon up when it's easy and takes no time.

i have battled every optional trainer in the game so far, otherwise my team would be under the 30s, like it has already happened to me once

it's perfectly normal to happen to be underleveled for the elite four in any of these games