GSC In-Game Tier List

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The Nidos in GSC are fairly similar to their counterparts in RBY, except they arrive slightly later in the game, evolve slightly later with a backtrack requirement, get their only good STAB move later, and have a slightly weaker selection of moves to pick from (but still pretty strong). They are still solid though, once they fully evolve. They still have Surf and Body Slam/Thrash (depending on gender and assuming you evolve them at level 23 or lower) and the elemental punches are probably going to get close to as many KOs as moves like Thunderbolt and Ice Beam did. They generally don't have trouble on most routes and their coverage allows them to contribute in pretty much every important Johto battle to varying degrees (aside from Morty, they're complete dead-weight there). It also helps that they gain experience relatively quickly especially early on when they're not strong and they don't have access to all of their moves yet.

I'm a bit borderline about A vs. B. I said B before though just because I prefer to go with the lower tier in cases where I'm not 100% certain. I think the lack of STAB and the fiddling around for the Moon Stone are significant enough flaws to keep them out of A, but they may be acceptable depending on how you look at it - their wide coverage allows them to get lots of KOs without STAB, and the Moon Stone backtrack, while inconvenient, is probably not going to take THAT long when you think about it.

It may also depend on how big you want A-tier to be. I personally prefer a smaller A but if we want to be less conservative and allow more stuff into the upper tiers then A may be OK for these guys. But for now I'll say B.
 
Currently I think HM slaving is almost pointless to factor in because we are already mostly tiering Pokemon based on their battling utility. If I'm using a team of four Pokemon or less, you have two slots for HM utility. The utility you get from a Pokemon being able to learn an HM move is so small because:
- the credit is shared with a bazillion other Pokemon, all of which do the job equally well
- only one Pokemon on the team needs to have the move, there's absolutely no gain from having an extra Cutter on the team
- some HM moves are viable battling moves (Fly, Surf, Strength) while others are never or almost never needed (Headbutt, Waterfall, Whirlpool, Flash, Cut)

I honestly would not be opposed to leaving out HM utility entirely.

@ Moon Stone: the backtrack also gets you a Rare Candy for what it's worth, so it's like spending a bit of time grinding while getting an evolution to boot. Alternatively you can opt to send cash to mom from the beginning and she'll drop a Moon Stone in the PC once you're around Ecruteak I believe. Then when you get Fly you can pick up any money she has left.
 
I think HM Utility does have its rare exceptions, but yes I could also argue that battle utility is probably a bigger factor. I might exercise a rare exception for those that learn, literally, a shitton of them (Bibarel, Tropius, Sharpedo in ORAS maybe) but this likely requires more to discuss.

And feel free to test out the Nidos Philip. Good luck!
 
The Nidos provide a disappointing experience tbh and the only saving grace for them is mainly having access to the punches and the good HM. The stats are barely acceptable for having nonSTAB moves mostly.

Also I wonder something: What is the best mon for Surf/Strength actually? Both moves are somewhat strong and great ingame. The Nidos were a bit disappointing, so I wonder what mon would carry those two great moves effectively. Maybe Totodile, but his Special Attack is meh :(
 
Hiddenfreezer said:
Also I wonder something: What is the best mon for Surf/Strength actually? Both moves are somewhat strong and great ingame. The Nidos were a bit disappointing, so I wonder what mon would carry those two great moves effectively. Maybe Totodile, but his Special Attack is meh :(
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What about Lapras and Suicune? Gyarados and Quagsire could work but their SpA is pretty bad (worse than Feraligatr's) but the targets of Surf have poor SpD anyway
 
Random Passerby said:
What about Lapras and Suicune? Gyarados and Quagsire could work but their SpA is pretty bad (worse than Feraligatr's) but the targets of Surf have poor SpD anyway
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oh my... I totally forgot Suicune is a legit catch in Gen 2 Crystal...and is it worth A rank atleast? Hell yeah!(It gets Aurora Beam if I am not mistaken)
Red Gyarados is the King of the HM Slaves btw. He is also great to use. Definitely A rank for his High Level alone
Lapras is also a superinteresting mention you've made... it can be catched Friday right? Level 20 after Surf is a bit lame, but it looks like one of those mons which can carry you the whole game.
Should probably try Crystal out again soon ~
 
Hiddenfreezer said:
oh my... I totally forgot Suicune is a legit catch in Gen 2 Crystal...and is it worth A rank atleast? Hell yeah!(It gets Aurora Beam if I am not mistaken)
Red Gyarados is the King of the HM Slaves btw. He is also great to use. Definitely A rank for his High Level alone
Lapras is also a superinteresting mention you've made... it can be catched Friday right? Level 20 after Surf is a bit lame, but it looks like one of those mons which can carry you the whole game.
Should probably try Crystal out again soon ~
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Imo Suicune in Crystal is worth S rank. It comes at Lv40, which is higher than your entire team at that point. Also gets Water + Ice coverage and has great stats.

Lapras is catchable on Friday nights. Totally worth it since you get STAB Ice Beam naturally. It also has great stats and movepool. Furthermore, you are probably around Lv21 - 23 after Morty so it's not too much of a grind to catch up.
 
Gyarados and Feraligatr have weaker Surfs but their Strengths are at least stronger than most Water-types with their higher base Attack.

Suicune for S? Dunno. It is undeniably strong but it is kind of late too.
 
Random Passerby said:
Imo Suicune in Crystal is worth S rank. It comes at Lv40, which is higher than your entire team at that point. Also gets Water + Ice coverage and has great stats.

Lapras is catchable on Friday nights. Totally worth it since you get STAB Ice Beam naturally. It also has great stats and movepool. Furthermore, you are probably around Lv21 - 23 after Morty so it's not too much of a grind to catch up.
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Agreed on both. Lapras is somewhat promising too

Colonel M How is before the 8th badge late? We are not talking about frickin Tyranitar or Dragonite, it is aviable before we even put one foot onto Kanto... also its level fits yours pretty well.

Also I should say "If late is bad, think about Primal Groudon in ORAS, and never say late = bad again"...always think of ORAS Groudon/Kyogre if late is not S rank worthy...
 
Hiddenfreezer said:
Agreed on both. Lapras is somewhat promising too

Colonel M How is before the 8th badge late? We are not talking about frickin Tyranitar or Dragonite, it is aviable before we even put one foot onto Kanto... also its level fits yours pretty well.

Also I should say "If late is bad, think about Primal Groudon in ORAS, and never say late = bad again"...always think of ORAS Groudon/Kyogre if late is not S rank worthy...
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Suicune's pretty late if you're excluding the Kanto section of the game, and by that point, a player would've probably settled with another good Water type such as Lapras. Late=bad isn't necessarily true, but Pokemon available earlier tend to be more favorable than similar Pokemon that come after a good portion of the game's big battles.

iirc, Suicune doesn't learn any Ice moves via level up in C (besides lolmist), which is another problem with it. Crystal has Ice Beam available at the Game Corner, and Blizzard is there too, but getting the coins for either of them isn't really efficient unless you're swimming in money.

Suicune's definitely an A rank Pokemon due to it's stellar stats and available level, but S may be pushing it.

Edit: I'm an idiot; I forgot about Aurora Beam. Late availability still hurts it a little bit though, and it still could use a better Ice move.
 
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Hiddenfreezer said:
Agreed on both. Lapras is somewhat promising too

Colonel M How is before the 8th badge late? We are not talking about frickin Tyranitar or Dragonite, it is aviable before we even put one foot onto Kanto... also its level fits yours pretty well.

Also I should say "If late is bad, think about Primal Groudon in ORAS, and never say late = bad again"...always think of ORAS Groudon/Kyogre if late is not S rank worthy...
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Remember I am one of those that teetered back and forth.

Kanto is assumed, but one really big problem is that Kanto is quite the blowout. Not to say there is no content, but it is much shorter than the original Johto campaign.

Suicune is great. Don't get me wrong. But it also isn't quite Primal Groudon / Kyogre level in some ways (the biggest example is it lacks a setup move). It does decently against the Dragonairs but it is ineffective vs Kingdra with Claire.

- Will is okay for Suicune. Xatus wont dent it too hard and, IIRC, Exeggutor lacks any real Grass-type move. Not doing crap to Slowbro though.
- Again Suicune is okay against Koga too. Having a high Def and lower Attack makes it less pain inducing to face Crobat at least (in regards to Confuse Ray). It hits Forretress on its weaker defenses but on Muk's stronger one too.
- Bruno is odd. This is because the Hitmons have decent SpD. It creams Onix... but... who... doesn't? I think Suicune stands toe to toe with Machamp though Cross Chop crit could suck.
- Not bad against Karen. Umbreon is more annoying than threatening.
- Very solid vs Lance - Thunder is shaky to take but Gyarados is the only other struggle.

With Rain Dance it has a psuedo setup that at least helps. But then - what about Ho-oh? Though requiring a detour STAB Fly and Sunny Day Sacred Fire shreds through a lot of the E4 too - with a good SpD to boot.

I am not necessarily saying no to Suicune S - just have some doubts on it. Undeniably the minumum it should be is A, but to compare to Primal ORAS legendaries is hard because they actually obliterate the last gym and the Elite Four with almost 0 fucks given (Phoebe Curse is the only shenanigan aside from temporary Light Screen from Glalie that honestly "matters").
 
Suicune isn't S-tier worthy at all, I find. The offensive bases are just "good enough", it takes a while to kill stuff in the E4 and it misses most of the game. Hard to catch too. I'd rather grab a Golduck myself!
 
Lucchini said:
Suicune isn't S-tier worthy at all, I find. The offensive bases are just "good enough", it takes a while to kill stuff in the E4 and it misses most of the game. Hard to catch too. I'd rather grab a Golduck myself!
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But Suicune comes at a high level and it is much bulkier than Golduck. It's SpA is only a mere 5 points behind it too. Natural Rain Dance (to boost Water Attacks) and Aurora Beam for coverage doesn't hurt either.
 
Doesn't the player have access the ability to purchase Ice Punch as coverage to some early game water types, a bunch of viable water types like Gyarados or Gator (and Ice Beam in C) until Suicune is met?

I think A is high enough for Suicune IMO
 
mertyville said:
Doesn't the player have access the ability to purchase Ice Punch as coverage to some early game water types, a bunch of viable water types like Gyarados or Gator (and Ice Beam in C) until Suicune is met?

I think A is high enough for Suicune IMO
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The move tutor is only available after the Elite Four. But yeah, you can have Ice Punch (buy) or Icy Wind (Gym prize)
 
It's still a mon that's just called "just good enough" that doesn't have any availability to boast. Its bulk isn't nearly as important when a bunch of key opponents endgame threaten with electric-type moves, and when we aim to kill things quickly and not stall targets out to death. If the game were hard enough to warrant the use of something like RestStalk Suicune or resembled the competitive, then it would be a non-negligible quality. Otherwise it's just a nice little boost for a mon that doesn't exist for most of the game.
 
There are several Water-types I'd rather use than Suicune. I don't think Crystal Suicune should even be A tier because it's obtained so late and the few relevant match-ups that has aren't even that amazing, although it can at least contribute in all of them.

But I'd rather have it in A than in S if I had to pick between just those two.
 
Suicune A is fine I think...
Also I wonder if there is a Pokemon we criminally undeestimate, like the Legendary Doges(lol Level 40 after Rock Smash...). Any ideas?
 
The practicality of catching one pre-Master Ball just seems nonexistent unless possible RNG manipulation is involved.

If they're captured at that point Raikou is only decent vs Will and some of Lance's Pokemon. Entei chips at Koga... and some stragglers. Kanto wise Raikou only beats Misty and some of Gary's Pokemon (and like Crobat). Entei burninates Eirika but not much outside of that.
 
Hiddenfreezer said:
Suicune A is fine I think...
Also I wonder if there is a Pokemon we criminally undeestimate, like the Legendary Doges(lol Level 40 after Rock Smash...). Any ideas?
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Lv 40 Legendary Pokemon before the 4th gym basically means nothing if you can't catch them (unless you sell your soul to RNGesus). Both Raikou and Entei are good, but they're not gonna leave the lower tiers because actually obtaining them early on will require an insane amount of time, money, and sub-par Poke Balls (Don't forget Fast Ball's boosted catch rate only applies to like, 3 Pokemon in GSC, neither of which are the legendary beasts), which is not efficient in the slightest. It's safe to say their availabllity comes when the Master Ball comes, which is pretty eh.

I think GS Mareep could possibly rise to A. It comes early and is easy to get, has good stats bar speed (which can be annoying in select battles, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be in-game), and its gym/E4 match ups are pretty good overall; the only Johto gyms Mareep doesn't like is Morty (which is where the speed shortcoming will be especially annoying, with status moves flying about) and Clair (Ampharos beats Gyarados cleanly though). Its movepool is small overall, but it has access to Thunder and Fire Punch at Goldenrod, and Thunder Wave comes in handy as well, especially against Miltank the whore.
 
Seel is too high at A imo. You can only get it after you can obtain the Whirlpool HM (which is obtained in Rocket Hideout in Mahogany City) and the badge from Pryce. While it comes at a decent level, it's stats are pretty mediocre and it has a pretty poor match-up against Chuck and Jasmine (except Steelix but then you most likely can't OHKO while it can be annoying with Sunny Day). Otherwise, it contributes just as much as any Water-type.

One advantage is has are Surf (which you WILL have ) and it comes free with Aurora Beam, which can be replaced with Ice Beam later on (although you have to hold off evolution for 3 levels). Unfortunately, it's Attacking stats are pretty subpar even as a Dewgong (70 SpA).
 
Lucchini said:
Entei and Raikou also have a movepool problem, both requiring an expensive Goldenrod TM to function.
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Entei, probably but Raikou is able to make do with Spark (at Lv41) until you get Thunderbolt in Kanto. Despite this, I agree that both are really inefficient to catch unless you have a Master Ball and even then, their performance in battle doesn't warrant the effort to catch them.
 
Okay Legendary Beasts were just an idea.

I also agree with whatever tier Seel is, Lapras is atleast one tier higher. Latter has usable stats and you can get it BEFORE Seel.
(Also if you have a Level 16 Alakazam this game because incredibly easy...xept Umbreon/Houndoom)
 
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