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Lower Tiers GSC PU Discussion Thread (New Samples Post #84)

Following the major drops to PU and rise from PU, the GSC PU council have voted to Quickban Baton Pass. This vote was carried out after Baton Pass emerged as a major issue in testing and it was agreed immediate action was needed for tier stability.

We will be revisiting action on Baton Pass in the near future with the possibility of a resuspect or some other action, we are interested to hear people's take on it as we move forward with the tier.


Tagging Marty and dhelmise for implementation, thank you.

I understand the need for stability but that is a major change for something that was not an issue pre-drops. Testing is extremely early right now, and Farfetch’d was a better target preliminarily speaking. Doing this completely changes the tier and I sincerely hope the council is sincere about resuspecting it soon rather than removing a major element of the game in a quickban without player input.

TLDR I hope the “resuspect” talk is not BS just to push this through
 
COWARDS!

Basically, my thoughts echo those of BFM: Farfetchd would be a far better ban target as none of the other new mons (bar Hitmonchan as a curse recipient?) really alter what was already a fine element of the tier. I personally find baton pass very fun to use and am saddened by its overeager ban.
 
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COWARDS!

Basically, my thoughts echo those of BFM: Farfetchd would be a far better ban target as none of the other new mons (bar Hitmonchan as a curse recipient?) really alter what was already a fine element of the tier. I personally find baton pass very fun to use and am saddened by its overeager ban.

Don’t mean to dogpile or anything but just want to add that baton pass is indeed extremely fun and the council is taking the joy away from a big part of the tier right before PUCL starts but after the draft which is a bit upsetting. A lot of the excitement was literally pulled from underneath and there’s was little reason to not simply target Farfetch’d for now. I hope this decision can be reconsidered but I doubt it will. I really hope it is revisited also but these things rarely seem to do so
 
Ban farfetchd, free baton pass. I agree with the above, this was a premature ban of what has been a valid and fun strategy.

The only thing that fundamentally changed for it was the addition of one agility sd pass merchant. Ban that guy instead and reevaluate bp later if need be.
 
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I understand the need for stability but that is a major change for something that was not an issue pre-drops. Testing is extremely early right now, and Farfetch’d was a better target preliminarily speaking. Doing this completely changes the tier and I sincerely hope the council is sincere about resuspecting it soon rather than removing a major element of the game in a quickban without player input.

TLDR I hope the “resuspect” talk is not BS just to push this throug
Ban farfetchd, free baton pass. I agree with the above, this was a premature ban of what has been a valid and fun strategy.

The only thing that fundamentally changed for it was the addition of one agility sd pass merchant. Ban that guy instead and reevaluate bp later if need be.
COWARDS!

Basically, my thoughts echo those of BFM: Farfetchd would be a far better ban target as none of the other new mons (bar Hitmonchan as a curse recipient?) really alter what was already a fine element of the tier. I personally find baton pass very fun to use and am saddened by its overeager ban.
3 things
Bp isnt suddenly only after the drops in contention last meta there was alredy an survey for bp and it was the issue seen as the most problematic of the things surveyed and mentioned as the most common issue of pu in the free write part of the survey

The second thing is farfetched isnt the only new advantage bpgot. the tier got farfetch as an new yes but we also got hitmonchan and dundparce as good curse pass recipiants and azu as another agility pass recipient that works even without sd pass from farfetched and dunsparce that works good with farfetched. lastly anti bp tech was made worse trough the drops before the drops spikes was better which gave more teams an valid reason to use roar or whirlwind and 3 of the hazers left have completely left the meta

Last thing farfetched also isnt the best bp users this and last meta the best bp users stays venomoth because of its good stats status moves and better/more common bp recipants farfetched is just an upgrade frail new agility sd pass user which makes its bp pass shenanigans an more variable on its effectiveness
 
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3 things
Bp isnt suddenly only after the drops in contention last meta there was alredy an survey for bp and it was the issue seen as the most problematic of the things surveyed and mentioned as the most common issue of pu in the free write part of the survey

The second thing is farfetched isnt the only new advantage bpgot. the tier got farfetch as an new yes but we also got hitmonchan and dundparce as good curse pass recipiants and azu as another agility pass recipient that works even without sd pass from farfetched and dunsparce that works good with farfetched. lastly anti bp tech was made worse trough the drops before the drops spikes was better which gave more teams an valid reason to use roar or whirlwind and 3 of the hazers left have completely left the meta

Last thing farfetched also isnt the best bp users this and last meta the best bp users stays venomoth because of its good stats status moves and better/more common bp recipants farfetched is just an upgrade frail new agility sd pass user which makes its bp pass shenanigans an more variable on its effectiveness
My point though is not that BP is fine, it’s that this was premature and it’s not something that should be quickbanned. Let the players play, and let the players decide. It feels like the drops simply provided an opportunity for the council to ban something they already wanted to ban and get an easy to use justification, just very dishonest imo and I’m quite disappointed
 
To be clear the intent is very much to have a retest of some sort and the council were not discussing what action to take on BP before the drops, the only discussion going on at all was the direction of the shifts.

What we WERE doing was playing and viewing games and BP was very obviously going to be taking over play throughout the upcoming tournaments to the point that we felt it would stifle meta development majorly during an important period for the tier. The council voted unanimously to do this and didn't do so lightly. From my personal POV it's better to take action prior to a major tour than to end up in a situation where we have to take action mid way through a tour.

Regarding Farfetch'd it was indeed seeming like a problem but Venomoth was emerging to be as much of a problem if not even more, as a mon with all the same tools as it had before shifts.

I'm sorry that the approach has made some of you unhappy, we had the discussion in public rooms which anyone could have chimed in on and we got next to 0 backlash to the idea until after the post finally got made. This decision was never going to be permanent though, we were always going to revisit BP asap and I'm glad this has galvanised people to get involved if nothing else.
 
Hello GSC PUers, with GSC PU Slam and GSC PU Classic coming up imminently the council has discussed the next steps regarding the BP ban. For the purposes of those 2 tournaments we will be unbanning Baton Pass via challenge code (/challenge gen 2 pu@@@ +baton pass) so you may use Baton Pass in both of those tournaments. Following the conclusion of those tournaments we will hold a suspect vote, the parameters of which will be set closer to the time as we gather info. Thanks :woop:
 
:gs/Furret: NEW SAMPLE TEAMS! :gs/Hitmonchan:

The GSC PU Council has been gathering samples for the new metagame just in time for GSC PU Cup and GSC PU Open! Both of these tournaments will have Baton Pass UNBANNED, and as such we hoped to get some teams to people for this meta. Below are some samples that various players have graciously submitted so that others can use them during these tournaments (click the mons images for the pastes):

:Furret: :Murkrow: :Tangela: :Cubone: :Hitmonchan: :Arbok: Murkrow/Cubone by MrSoup
:Dunsparce: :Hitmonchan: :Tangela: :Furret: :Murkrow: :Arbok: Lead Dunparce Arbok by Indulge in dreams
:Elekid: :Furret: :Venomoth: :Hitmonchan: :Corsola: :Magcargo: Thief Elekid by Indulge in dreams
:Furret: :Delibird: :Venomoth: :Rhyhorn: :Hitmonchan: :Tangela: Mono-Hitmonchan Spikes by CrossHeart
:Venomoth: :Furret: :Dunsparce: :Corsola: :Flaaffy: :Delibird: Lead Moth Spikes by leoperi
:Voltorb: :Noctowl: :Seaking: :Dunsparce: :Arbok: :Tangela: Voltorb Screens by THE_CHUNGLER
:Elekid: :Hitmonchan: :Delibird: :Rhyhorn: :Tangela: :Noctowl: WW Noctowl Spikes by KeshBa54
:Furret: :Hitmonchan: :Houndour: :Gastly: :Seadra: :Delibird: Houndour Gastly Spikes by BigFatMantis
:Venomoth: :Farfetchd: :Sneasel: :Hitmonchan: :Furret: :Corsola: SD Pass Farfetch'd by BigFatMantis
:Venomoth: :Machoke: :Hitmonchan: :Murkrow: :Furret: :Corsola: CursePass Venomoth by BigFatMantis

Thank you again to everyone who submitted! Aurist PHB11677 please be sure to link this post when R1 goes up of each tour. Good luck everyone!
 
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Had fun playing this tour for cup, will give some thoughts on some mons.

:gs/farfetchd: :gs/venomoth: (this is basically baton pass). BP I think is mostly fine in the tier, as while in the early rounds I did utilise it from the cursepass sample and it won all the games, it didn't feel 'broken'. Unless your opp heavily messes up, you will get max 2 passes, but more typically it will be one pass. Venomoth is a great pokemon but it doesn't have the typing to make it happen consistently, usually having to rely on sleep powder at lead to do so. Farfetch'd is more threteaning with SD and agility, but it takes a lot from attacks so it can fall a bit flat. Its def not broken but The main issue with BP is a pokemon which I'll talk about next.


:gs/hitmonchan: Hitmonchan is broken. I think the primary reason why the meta is as offensive as it is, is due to Hitmonchan. Now, offensive GSC metas are fine and I honestlty prefer them, but frankly put I think the tier is too offensive, to the point where defensive playstyles do not feel great. I remember somebody saying in GSC cord that "I try not to have more then 1/2 mons have rest or any recovery" and while I have made teams with 3 recovery mons, that is the absolute limit. The two teams with 4 recovery mons that I made sucked ass and only won 1 match, which it did have to get pretty lucky to do so. IDT this is a good direction for the meta, and I'll explain further why hitmonchan is the mon to cause it.
While there are a lot of pokemon that have limited checks (arbok, murkrow, dunsparce, elekid etc), they usually have something holding them back. In arbok and murkrows case, they typically want to run non rest talk sets and thus most damage will stick more. In elekids case it really struggles to switch in and does need to choose its coverage if it uses restalk (psychic and ice punch are both important). Dunsparce can struggle to break through tang/rocks easily etc (though dunsparce is def bordering healthy territory at times).
Hitmonchan kinda just, doesn't really have many of these issues. Even a simple rest talk set has all the moves it wants with just a simple hp rock and hjk (I think bslam rest talk is prob chans worse set since it struggles to break through a lot of things). The only consistent checks are tangela and arbok. Tangela is annoying but runs into the problem of pursuit. While it only does 40% on switch out, thats going to add up over the course of a game, particularly if you are running something like rhyhorn to check normals (which if the opponent has furret is going to not be fun). Arbok suffers from the issue that it not only prefers non rest talk (thus being much easier to chip) but also can struggle with curse variants if they are rest talk, which a lot are I feel. Sure at +1 hjk isn't immediately threatening but it can boost constantly to just make sludge bomb do pitiful damage. That kinda leaves just slowpoke and drowzee as like, consistent checks, which IDT I want to really run those mons (and slowpoke has to run psychic otherwise it loses lol), due to the fact that murkrow is a top mon and they are pretty passive mons all around even with twave.
The sets are also varied and restrict counterplay. HP rock with rest talk is like, a good bread and butter set for its ability to threaten a lot of the meta naturally with its coverage and power. Curse rest talk struggle to initially wallbreak with their inability to break through the poisons but late game once they have been removed it is able to sweep teams easily. Curse 3A trades like crazy with its ability to threaten teams that think they can scout and then punish it. Thief 3A cripples the poisons for teammates and its own sweeping etc. Its just so versitile in what it can do that you can never truely answer defensively and I think the meta will be much better without it.

:gs/dunsparce: Seen a bit of complaining about this and I think its fine for the most part but I see where people are coming from. Endgame dunsparce is an amazing cleaner since its great bulk and high power after a boost or two, but it is definetely managable. Its best set in curse talk can't really break through the rocks and can't touch gastly at all (though gastly is a bit fringe) and while it can sweep teams, it isn't doing it instantly, it gives the opponent a lot of room to outplay initially. Curse HP sets either lack recovery or can't run rest talk, depending on what you choose, which means that you can either trade with it early or punish the resting turns with strong special damage (which most teams will have somewhat). Every other set is fine so yeah, good mon, maybe keep an eye on but for the most part its fine.


Now to talk about some cool mons

:gs/raticate: Raticate is firmly the 3rd best normal but I think it should be running different sets then people are currently running. Rest talk I do not like, I think it is basically just a worse furret even if super fang to chip down walls seems appealing but furrets better bulk and access to surf means it is not only more consistent at breaking, but also has less switch ins. Non rest talk sets I think are great though, utilising stuff like ice beam and thunderbolt alongside the free hit of super fang to chip anything down and you have a mon who is suprisingly difficult to switch into. This also leaves a free moveslot, toxic can cripple certain walls without rest, thief can cripple any wall as well, sub can scout switches and protect can help gain lefties chip if needed. I think that it really plays to the strengths of raticate of being a strong fast attacker that differentiates itself from other normals.

:gs/houndour: While its def worse then murkrow, I do think houndour has a good place in the tier. It completely and utterly fucks tangela, unlike murkrow who can be sniped by hp ice (nobody is running hp water rn and for good reason, its ass outside of hitting houndour). Tangela cannot stay in and thus has to take a meaty chunk out of its health, letting opposing sweepers have an easier time breaking through it. You also are pretty great offensively, with a good chunk of mons not liking flame+hp grass in combination with thief. I haven't seen it much aside from using it myself, but I do think its decent.

:gs/azumarill: Azumarill is such a weird mon. It should be incredibly goated due to its insane defenses, but that insane defenses come with a lack of offenses, unless you try and do belly drum stuff which like, prob don't lol. Thus you have a pokemon which can easily take even boosted attacks, but can't do a whole lot in return. Thats kinda why the only set that I think works is perish trap, which I think is decently effective at making sure teams don't get too comfy trying to abuse it. Due to its insane bulk, you can easily live the three turns needed to wait for the timer to run out, even if they do have boosting moves. Even certain super effective moves can bounce off if they aren't STAB, leading to a good chunk more things that it can trap. The primary issue is that when its forced to rest, it becomes pretty unreliable at actually trapping which is unfortunate, but it def has its place on certain teams.

:gs/abra: Abra is a nice offensive mon that despite the dark weakness, is pretty threatening to standard comps. Not much likes taking psychic+t-wave+coverage, which chunks a large part of the meta for good damage, even 3HKO'ing something like furret. It does die to any stray physical attack, but if you can do good double switching, it can get the chance to launch off pretty powerful attacks. Last moveslot is pretty flexible. Substitute is great to take advantage of switches easily, thief can cripple special walls easily, counter is cool to surprise a physical attacker etc. If you can drop t-wave, then you can fit encore on too which is great for disrupting opponents as well, though it is also incompatible with sub so you can't fit this set on every team. Still a good set though.

:gs/mantine: In a tier which tang is a top tier mon, having a water type that does not really give a fuck about it is amazing, combined with the fact that it is also a check to hitmonchan. While it isn't the most threatening pokemon, it does have enough firepower to make sure it can't be used as setup fodder for a few mons. However, I think that haze+3A is 100% the only set that works rn, otherwise it is setup fodder for curse chan and that is not exactly great.... 'Maybe' curse with hp flying could work but I am very unsure of how it could even be supported properly due to its low damage output (even at +1 furret isn't 4hko'd...)

Finally, heres my PVR. Some of the lower ranks are subject to being moved around.

1778119426043.png
 
SURVEY RESULTS

At the conclusion of the latest GSC PU Tournaments, which had Baton Pass legalized, we asked the top performers within those respective tours to give thoughts via a survey on what GSC PU should do about Baton Pass. As you recall, the GSC PU Council temporarily Quickbanned Baton Pass after the mass drops simply to ensure stability during PUCL, but the intention was always to re-evaluate it later. Here are the survey results, and then you can use this thread for discussion afterwards:

Forms response chart. Question title: Do you believe something should be done about Baton Pass in the tier?. Number of responses: 16 responses.


The most basic question, should something be done about Baton Pass, is fairly inconclusive. 43% of the players believe something should be done, far below a reasonable threshold for taking action against. However, only 32.3% believe something shouldn't be done, while 1/4 of players don't really care either way. Regardless of how you feel about the issue, this data is rampantly inconclusive.

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Forms response chart. Question title: If you believe it to be problematic, what is your preference of approaching it?. Number of responses: 10 responses.


This data is also very inconclusive. There is no majority opinion on how to approach Baton Pass if something were to be done about it.

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Forms response chart. Question title: On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most problematic, how problematic do you think Swords Dance Baton Pass is in the tier at the moment?. Number of responses: 16 responses.

Forms response chart. Question title: On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most problematic, how problematic do you think Curse Baton Pass is in the tier at the moment?. Number of responses: 16 responses.

These two charts illustrate how people feel individually about SD Baton Pass and also Curse Baton Pass. Speed pass and Growth pass weren't surveyed since nobody has mentioned them being problematic on their own. The averages for these charts are:

Swords Dance BP: 5.635
Curse BP: 4.875

Basically, a slight majority of players believe Swords Dance BP to be problematic (above 5), while a slight minority of players believe Curse BP to be problematic (below 5).

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Forms response chart. Question title: On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the tier with Baton Pass, with 10 being the most enjoyable and 1 being not at all enjoyable. Number of responses: 16 responses.

Average: 6.9375

In spite of all of this, a pretty substantial majority of players find the tier to bee very enjoyable at the moment with Baton Pass.

----------------------

I didn't give my own personal opinions on this yet, but I wanted to share the data with everyone here and open it up for further discussion. Ultimately the council has not decided how to proceed on this. It's possible there will be a vote soon on what to do though. If you have any additional thoughts, please post them below.
 
given a plurality believe action should be taken to some extent (44%) and within that plurality, 90% responded that either farfetch’d, statpass, or baton pass as a whole should be banned, I think a vote being held on farfetch’d would satisfy some people’s concerns without many people being against it.

i personally don’t think farfetch’d is a problem at all however and should a vote be held, i would not vote to ban it. My personal opinion isn’t that important, i think the data demonstrates that a farfetch’d vote between qualified players would be reasonable. even the players who voted “no action should be taken on baton pass” would still get to vote and express that opinion by voting dnb on fetch’d.

overall i think it would be ok to continue waiting and not take action on anything, i didnt see baton pass be particularly oppressive in any games i watched. this doesnt mean we cant be open to taking action in the future should new baton pass strategies develop. we are a small community and that means we can act fast to change the metagame
 
While support for action isn't overwhelming it's clear as Chungler said that a plurality support action and the primary identified issue is SD pass, leaving Farfetch'd the only SD passer the best vote for action.

I don't think it would be right for no action to emerge from a poll with such a notable amount of pro action sentiment, especially when a good chunk of that is calling for the full BP ban to remain. However, there are also plenty people who would unban BP with nothing else done. From my perspective, it's best to look at a compromise on offering action and voting on Farfetch'd (while unbanning Baton Pass) seems to be the best one here.
 
My personal thoughts:

I’m concerned about a stand alone Farfetch’d vote mostly because I feel some people may vote in consideration of future preferable action. However I do concede that procedurally speaking it is the correct thing to do at this point. In theory, a rank choice vote giving several options would best encompass what people truly want, but it is not really our place to try to police motivations of how people vote. So, I also support the action aurist and Chungler mentioned as the right thing to do in this very moment. Tiering policy has always dictated targetting mons individually whenever possible before looking at other things.

I would only ask that anyone who votes on this will take the current issue only as consideration. What that means is, only answer the question at hand, do you believe Farfetch’d is problematic. Don’t vote yes or no because you are contemplating a future vote on BP generally, or you don’t want a future vote on BP, or a different kind of focus like looking at a different mon later like Chan. If we can just focus on the current issue, then we can get a correct result, and if something is problematic later we can always look at that next.
 
So the plan from council side based on these outcomes is to run a suspect vote on Farfetch'd (qualifier list being the usual, last few tournaments etc) and unban Baton Pass at the point of outcome of the Farfetch'd result, no matter the result.

Given the split nature of the survey we wanted to open the floor to objection to the above and further feedback. Speak now or forever hold your peace :woop:

Pinging prospective voters: betathunder BloodAce BigFatMantis CrossHeart DD Joe DKM ExequielChef Heatranator hex KeshBa54 MrSoup Premonitions Theycallmephil THE_CHUNGLER torkonpeter tylerkehne zben elodin leoperi Raahel damien the genius Indulge in dreams
 
IDT that farfetch'd is really broken/should be banned but if it did get banned it's not the end of the world or anything.
Kinda just a bit of a cheese mon but the tier has multiple phaze/haze mons that are great in the tier (primary ones that come to mind are rhyhorn/noctowl and murkrow/seadra). Farfetch'd also doesn't have the best bulk in the world nor is it really fast at all (speed ties Tangela), and while it can get an agility off to alleviate the latter issue, passing that+SD is very difficult to do without having the opponent using their answer to it, and thus shutting down the entire strategy.
The only thing that is really broken with sd pass is hitmonchan, but if it's one Pokemon that's breaking the playstyle then said Pokemon should be banned. However, even looking at it from a perspective of "is farfetch'd broken" I would still say no. The playstyle is not broken and as a result farfetch'd is also not broken, and I would still vote dnb even if chan doesn't get voted on/banned.
 
Id honestly prefer we look at bp in its entirety but I see the data doesn't quite agree w me.
All in all im perfectly fine voting on far-fetched I see little reason not to ban him
SD pass, like all passing is simply too strong and too free down here.
Kill the duck.
 
So my own personal opinion on this:

I think that the only, singular broken aspect of the tier atm is very specifically SD Pass to Hitmonchan. The problem is this though to me:

1) I don't think BP is broken or unhealthy in any other aspects. Curse BP imo is easy to manage. SD Pass to things like Furret are tough but also manageable. Any other kind of pass like Growth, Agility, Sub, etc. is not even on the radar for any issues.
2) Farfetch'd by itself is also perfectly fine. Even with BP it's fine usually. The only problematic aspect is passing the SD to Hitmonchan (doesn't even need to Agility). I think passing Agility to anything is fine (and other mons do this too), passing SD to anything else like Furret is manageable as previously stated. So, Farfetch'd alone doesn't seem to be an issue. It's just that it's the only mon that can actually pass SD in this tier atm (as in, no other pokemon in PU/ZU can learn SD + Baton Pass).
3) Hitmonchan also by itself I think is perfectly fine and actually quite beneficial to the tier. The only thing imo that breaks Chan is receiving an SD Pass.

But, in spite of all this, that singular action of passing SD to Hitmonchan I think is definitely problematic. And so when we cannot pinpoint the exact root of the cause (all 3 things are fine without this singular interaction), then I think something still should probably be done. So, I would vote to ban Farfetch'd only because I think that interaction should not be available in the tier and that seems like the action that will cause the least disturbance to everything else. Additionally, we are supposed to first target singular pokemon before moving on to other things, and it seems silly to target Hitmonchan over Farfetch'd when Hitmonchan can have many other roles besides SD Receiver, while Farfetch'd really only has two things it does, BP or a Flail user, and the latter is not used much at all whereas Hitmonchan is used in various roles on many teams.

If we could specifically ban Hitmonchan from receiving an SD Pass that would be great but that's obviously not how tiering works, so I'd probably vote to ban Farfetch'd.
 
:gs/Farfetchd:

The GSC PU suspect for Farfetch'd is now up for voting! If you qualified, you can vote via this link: https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/218

The following users qualified for voting:
Aurist betathunder BloodAce BigFatMantis CrossHeart DD Joe DKM ExequielChef Heatranator hex KeshBa54 MrSoup Premonitions Theycallmephil THE_CHUNGLER torkonpeter tylerkehne zben elodin leoperi Raahel damien the genius Indulge in dreams

Users qualified via the following: Quarter Finals in either GSC PU Cup 2026 or GSC PU Open 2026, Semi Finals in GSC PU New Tier Shifts Tournament, and 3 games with minimum 1 win in PUCL 1.

A couple notes for those voting: After the results of the Farfetch'd vote, Baton Pass will be unbanned as was agreed post-quickban. However, this does not have to be the final action we take on Baton Pass. If further action on Baton Pass is called for in the future, we can act accordingly.

Thanks :woop:
 
I'm a tourist to GSC PU so I'd like anyone who reads this to take it with a grain of salt. I'm also relatively unbiased as to whether or not Farfetch'd is banned (I have my own opinion, but I'm not holding much stake in it because of my tourism). But I'd like it if some mainers responded so I can gather more POV's n_n

Whenever stuff like this is being tested, I always try to use it in tour/ladder games. I tried using BP in my GSC cup run and I just felt like it wasn't worth using. Me losing with it was mostly a result of me feeling like the play style is ass and I should've just used a regular team, and winning with it just felt like me getting lucky. You have to neuter your opponent with inaccurate moves and then also hope they don't roll specific moves to break sub or whatever else with Rest Talk and then also hope they don't really have a phaser.

This just made me beg the question of why GSC players want this in PU? It seems fringe at best, and skill-less cheese at worst. I feel like this doesn't breath new life into the tier, especially if the only consistent(?) passer is being suspected. Bc now that the cheese that is already inconsistent / not very skillful is freed in the tier, the best enabler is potentially going to be banned to keel said play style, making this sort of archetype even worse (dare I say unusuable..? lol). I just don't really see the roundabout point of this at all (as in, why not just ban BP outright or free and keep it as is) and just wanted to ask why GSC players are welcoming it into the tier so I can form an opinion for the suspect. My only argument for the opposing side I could think of is that it breaks apart the "boring" nature of GSC, but I don't think I'm correct in forming that thought so I'm at a loss mostly.

I honed in on BP more than I wanted to so TLDR: is Farfetch'd being banned really going to leave room for this play style to breathe, and if so, does that mean anything positive for the tier?
 
I'm a tourist to GSC PU so I'd like anyone who reads this to take it with a grain of salt. I'm also relatively unbiased as to whether or not Farfetch'd is banned (I have my own opinion, but I'm not holding much stake in it because of my tourism). But I'd like it if some mainers responded so I can gather more POV's n_n

Whenever stuff like this is being tested, I always try to use it in tour/ladder games. I tried using BP in my GSC cup run and I just felt like it wasn't worth using. Me losing with it was mostly a result of me feeling like the play style is ass and I should've just used a regular team, and winning with it just felt like me getting lucky. You have to neuter your opponent with inaccurate moves and then also hope they don't roll specific moves to break sub or whatever else with Rest Talk and then also hope they don't really have a phaser.

This just made me beg the question of why GSC players want this in PU? It seems fringe at best, and skill-less cheese at worst. I feel like this doesn't breath new life into the tier, especially if the only consistent(?) passer is being suspected. Bc now that the cheese that is already inconsistent / not very skillful is freed in the tier, the best enabler is potentially going to be banned to keel said play style, making this sort of archetype even worse (dare I say unusuable..? lol). I just don't really see the roundabout point of this at all (as in, why not just ban BP outright or free and keep it as is) and just wanted to ask why GSC players are welcoming it into the tier so I can form an opinion for the suspect. My only argument for the opposing side I could think of is that it breaks apart the "boring" nature of GSC, but I don't think I'm correct in forming that thought so I'm at a loss mostly.

I honed in on BP more than I wanted to so TLDR: is Farfetch'd being banned really going to leave room for this play style to breathe, and if so, does that mean anything positive for the tier?

So I appreciate this post and I want to respond to it in a way that actually gives you answers to the questions posed, as opposed to being argumentative.

As someone who very much enjoys GSC PU and has played it in various tournaments, I would say BP actually does have merit in many different structures. It’s not something new either - before the new drops, BP was already a strategy used on various teams and, to your point, it is certainly not overpowered but it can also be fun to use. Using funky offensive structures that are not game breaking is something that is very appealing to a lot of people, myself included. Curse Pass is, in my opinion ion, quite decent (and to some even problematic) and I used to use it with both Moth and Aipom back in day. Aipom is cool because he can also pass Curse and Agility. Theres also Growth pass which has really died down and is probably not good anymore, but it’s still under explored in the new meta. It was definitely viable though fringe in the old meta, and it made for some very interesting structures. Agility pass by itself is also decent on Cubone and even Tangela Growth structures. All in all, a well played BP team can certainly make good progress against the opponent.

However, SD Pass to Chan just feels kind of cheap. If you can successfully pull it off it has almost no answer unless you are zben and run Mantine Haze. Sure you can do your best to prevent it, but the fact that Fetchd only needs one SD with no other boosts due to Chans natural speed makes it unreasonably to answer consistently. That being said I’m also ok with it if it sticks around. It’s broken but it’s not impossible to deal with either, just requires unreasonable countermeasures.

I guess to sum up the response - BP is fun to a lot of people. A lot of people also hate it. It is quite polarizing. But I wouldn’t call it broken, so there’s no need to target it completely if people can enjoy it while reasonable counterplay exists to it.
 
The results are in, and as ban votes did not make the requisite 60%, Farfetch'd will not be banned from GSC PU. :gs/Farfetchd:

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Thanks to all the voters who participated. The voting can be found here: https://www.smogon.com/tools/suspects/view/218

As we noted for this process, Baton Pass will now be unbanned from GSC PU following its prior quickban. Tagging Marty and dhelmise for implementation.

Our next step will be looking at an updated viability rankings for the new meta and updating Smogon Dex sets for GSC PU. We have a little bit of time before next tournaments so let's get moving :woop:
 
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