Just to verify, those combos are still banned
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Lower Tiers GSC PU Discussion Thread (New Samples Post #84)
- Thread starter DAWNBUSTER
- Start date
We are so back, perhaps it’s time to give the tier another shot
PUFL homeskillet I’ll see you there
Hey yall I had fun making teams and kinda learning this tier as I played it more this PUFL. Felt compelled to share them here.
If you wanna see some of my thought process or want any help with this tier feel free to dm.
https://pokepast.es/efc5bdd4b0d10365 week 4
https://pokepast.es/cbb5d1032ed39dcc week 5 (double subbed)
https://pokepast.es/ccd242965c059e11 semifinals
https://pokepast.es/77187b4e6fb0e3ab finals ( I learned 15 minutes before the game that I could not have confusion + synthesis on tangela!)
Till next time!
If you wanna see some of my thought process or want any help with this tier feel free to dm.
https://pokepast.es/efc5bdd4b0d10365 week 4
https://pokepast.es/cbb5d1032ed39dcc week 5 (double subbed)
https://pokepast.es/ccd242965c059e11 semifinals
https://pokepast.es/77187b4e6fb0e3ab finals ( I learned 15 minutes before the game that I could not have confusion + synthesis on tangela!)
Till next time!
Last edited:
hi! puff is over and i ended up playing gsc for it which was fun.
gonna talk about the tier as a whole here, focusing on
1. how I feel about the tier as a whole
2. what I'd do to improve it
3. The puff poliwhirl suspect
4. my VR as of the very end of the tournament
on the whole i think the shifts (the larger one not poliwhirl test) are a massive improvement to this tier, the in-game interactions are more interesting than i think they've ever been. that said my impression of the tier isn't super positive rn, not like it was in early weeks. this is mostly because i think building the tier..really really sucks. i think the tier has a classic overload of things to account for, and some threats currently just do too much that its unhealthy and punishing to scout them. the tier is far from hard to salvage tho and I'll explain that in the next section.
this tier needs bans. it really just does.
my ideal action map focuses on 3 things, not 3 pokemon.
The Bans.
Baton pass
i think this move needs to be banned all together. it was done briefly before and i still don't get why that was reversed. the meta is exclusively made worse by the inclusion of baton pass. the strong and reasonably common users are venomoth(curse/agility passer) and farfetchd(swords dance/agility passer) and i think looking at how this move affects these pokemon really sells home my argument, venomoth is an S tier pokemon no matter how you slice it and this is still the case without baton pass, this pokemon is actually pushed to the point of being somewhat unhealthy by the existence of its baton passer sets when otherwise it'd be a very healthy and central threat i believe the tier needs. on the complete other end of the spectrum is farfetchd, this pokemon I'm 99% sure will not exist without baton pass and i think thats fine. we just drop it and move on. as of rn its not adding anything to the tier but i also do think our previous test of this pokemon is misguided as sd pass i believe is actually weaker than cursepass. ban baton pass the move, not any specific abuser.
Elekid
this will probably be the most controversial part of my post. i think elekid has become extremely unhealthy in this meta. obviously, it hits really really hard and has a movepool that lets it tech a consistent bomb vs most top meta pokemon. but what really breaks this to me is the speed and ease of spreading para. there are 3 pokemon that outspeed elekid, only 2 of which id actually call good and none that id call splashable or reliable into it. elekids best set is the resttalk variants with ice punch/psychic and sometimes pursuit as the second attack. this pokemon constrains the builder and often forces teams to use suboptimal pokemon and comps which struggle into other threats. i hate this pokemons impact on the tier and truly think its the most bannable thing here.
Dunsparce
to the surprise of no one i take issue with this big fat snake. next level bulk and ramps up too easily. this mon will often mandate multiple checks for a team to actually feel sturdy against it and many of the pokemon its checked by you can tech for easily on offensive builds or simply not very good pokemon so they drag your comp down to use them. there is a slight asterisk on this entry however as i think the 2 bans i talk about above might make dunsparce less of a headache but im not positive on that. as of rn id ban this
The next section of the post is about the poliwhirl
suspect, a subject i encourage more gsc pu likers and especially puff starters to post about
Poliwhirl
This pokemon had a strange tour because it wasnt actually used very much, being brought 3 times and only winning in a mirror match
this kinda demonstrates the question we face with this mon. it's pretty bad and very inconsistent but it also adds nothing of value to the tier whatsoever. my strongest opinion on this pokemon is that i hope we sort it out quickly so we can address the things in the tier that actually matter. as it stands im undecided how id really vote on this pokemon and wish we got more damage but i couldn't seriously consider bringing it for much of this tournament.
now for the fun stuff, my vr and reasons for those placements.
S tiers
currently i have this as the best pokemon in the tier, if my requested bp ban goes through it probably gets passed by furret but i cant see it dropping any further and that really speaks to its power. elite check to pokemon like hp ice tangela and hitmonchan, very fast for the tier, probably the most splashable resttalker. its just elite.
HES BACK. long time followers of gsc pu remeber this guy as an all powerful god that was banned long before shifts. after shifts however hes been unbanned and comes out to be just elite rather than broken or overwhelming. resttalk is checked comfortably by corsola and tangela and curse is walled out by ur usual curse normal answers. this pokemon is very good but i can say confidently its found a comfortable place in the tier.
after being in the tier for a very long time the stars have finally aligned to make this comfortably the best grass type in the tier, a role which seems only more important with every passing day. not much to say here just very very good.
the above explains it but yeah, best curse sweeper, mandates answers on every team to just get to play the game.
i think glare sets are good and deserve more exploring.
A Tiers...part 1
if i wanted to make the visual ugly itd have these guys seperated into like A1
i mean yeah, so fast and strong. switchins to thunder are either terrified of your coverage or paralysis. screw this little bastard
i see ppl put this at like top 3 or 1 sometimes and ngl while i dont see it..i do think this is a pokemon who warrants a response on serious teams. fighting type damage+filling the shoes of our dearly departed
i hate body slam so much. joking aside this pokemon just has like 2 main roles and does them both well. in a confusing lead metagame this shines as one of the better ones imo
i hope we've woken up to realize this mon never fell off, incredible sweeper that can outpace some curse sweepers.
as elite as ever.
A tiers pt2
a slight step down from pt1 but still large parts of the meta
the spiker, but you know it does that and probably know that spikes are good. but more importantly its just a good special threat in this meta, its speed feels less like of a drag now and the combination of ice beam and thief is very uncomfortable to switch into.
i think this mon struggles from having next to no staying power but obv water stab tears through many teams.
if this was a bit easier to fit itd easily be top 8, whirlwind on a fast and strong curse attacker is just really strong.
we overrated this mon alot when drops first came out but i still think its an A tier threat, best pursuiter.
i once called this the honest version of curse venomoth, which i do agree with despite the mons access to paraflinch technology(glare+rock slide) still tho its a very good physical threat
B Tiers
i know im probably the only player this high on her, but this is by far the best alternate grass type to Tangela while still being a solid curse sweeper in its own right, it trades some power of the normals for instant recovery and the ability to sidestep their most common checks with its stab. i find myself building with this mon frequently.
similar to hitmonchan, but with more initial physical bulk than special, lower speed, access to cross chop. this helps against curse sweepers and can be one itself. very nice
i think this is the best rock just because its the best at getting around its passivity.
i do think its time to admit this mons overrated, the absolute best thing it has going for it is the elekid outspeed which yes does make it pretty hard to revenge, but its bulk is just not on the level of furrets and it struggles a bit to choose between resttalk and threatening normal resists
feels a bit forced to run roll out or be passive, definitely soured on this mon recently but its still very solid
almost wanted to put this lower since it feels like it has no results but the potential is there, i tried a curse set i never got to bring that i think is maybe cute
PUs rising star, part of puff was the realization that mantine isnt potential mon anymore its just good, ultimately a bit similar to seadra with a better defensive profile.
this guys a fraud, b4 this tour there were discussions that it may be unhealthy but no its extremely passive and a bit hard to justify, definitely dont waste time suspecting this guy lol
C tiers
these will be split into 2 between mons id keep pu and mons id drop
:flaafy: i think this mons usage is carried a bit by being a good response to elekid, otherwise i find it pretty disappointing in bulk and output
for now he stays pu. if bp goes hes obviously cooked but as is sd pass is strong enough to make this guy a real pu pkm
i genuinely think being the tiers premier spinner is big enough of a niche to be pu, sd/screech depending on ur comp, ability to always fit a move for grass types, good special bulk. the mons got the tools and i enjoyed using it
the 3rd rock and the last one im ranking pu, the problem w this guy is that its still hit by the usual hidden powers and is harder to fit. stab fire blast is nice tho so it can stay
i dont like this mon, i think its a chore to use and being forced on spikes is very awkard because u then struggle to switch into alot of things idk not a fan, need to see more. cant fall to zu with a tang mu like that tho.
C tiers under the cutoff
pursuit and fire blast is cool, stats are really bad tho. definitely the worst drop unfort
i want to like this mon more than i do but it kinda suffers from bad resttalk rolls and phys bulk alot
the test subject, i said it above but this guy like..sucks hes inconsistent and lame.
frail drowzee with actual coverage, not huge on it rn 90 is too crowded of a speed tier.
this mon sucks major butt, this is who i was talking abt when i said dunsparce makes you consider bad mons as serious threats, too slow, too frail, too weak, needs to literally die to make an impact.
i think he's closer to gastly than the D tiers, typing is interesting.
D Tiers
not gonna talk abt all of em
the remaining 2 grasses, sunfloras historic fall has only continued, probably UR without the improved elekid mu, ivysaur is mostly a swords dance mon that can enter on the rounds and rocks while flexing its toxic immunity, niche but useable.
i liked resttalk, struggles vs waters but bslam is a good move. i genuinely considered bringing it and thats more than i can say for nearly all other D tiers. the speed is cute on a fire type especially
the other passers, ariados is like a more predictable bulkier venomoth, same attacks and moves to pass just no statuses so ur very telegraphed
eevee passes growth which im yet to actually see work but idt its unviable at all.
the bad rocks, onix is kinda just a weak rhyhorn with boom and oma is a bad corsola with more immediate power and thief.
other spinners, my thoughts rlly are just use tent. staryu has more upside with fine speed, twave, instant recovery but it just does no damage ever.
i think wartortle is really bad but atleast its the bulkiest spinner in the tier that uh..counts for something
basically, it passes barrier and agility as seen above. it's not a good mon, just a testament to how stupid bp is we need to ban this nonsense.
i tried several times to make beedrill work, boosted sludge just sounds so appealing but its too frail and slow to be good or consistent, charmeleon i think is slighty better because it can run fire blast or hp grass to be a mixed threat which is ok.
thats my vr, overall my goal with this post is more people to post about the problems i covered and also about poliwhirl so we can sort him out fast.
i enjoy gsc pu alot and hope we can continue improving it, bye bye
gonna talk about the tier as a whole here, focusing on
1. how I feel about the tier as a whole
2. what I'd do to improve it
3. The puff poliwhirl suspect
4. my VR as of the very end of the tournament
on the whole i think the shifts (the larger one not poliwhirl test) are a massive improvement to this tier, the in-game interactions are more interesting than i think they've ever been. that said my impression of the tier isn't super positive rn, not like it was in early weeks. this is mostly because i think building the tier..really really sucks. i think the tier has a classic overload of things to account for, and some threats currently just do too much that its unhealthy and punishing to scout them. the tier is far from hard to salvage tho and I'll explain that in the next section.
this tier needs bans. it really just does.
my ideal action map focuses on 3 things, not 3 pokemon.
The Bans.
Baton pass
i think this move needs to be banned all together. it was done briefly before and i still don't get why that was reversed. the meta is exclusively made worse by the inclusion of baton pass. the strong and reasonably common users are venomoth(curse/agility passer) and farfetchd(swords dance/agility passer) and i think looking at how this move affects these pokemon really sells home my argument, venomoth is an S tier pokemon no matter how you slice it and this is still the case without baton pass, this pokemon is actually pushed to the point of being somewhat unhealthy by the existence of its baton passer sets when otherwise it'd be a very healthy and central threat i believe the tier needs. on the complete other end of the spectrum is farfetchd, this pokemon I'm 99% sure will not exist without baton pass and i think thats fine. we just drop it and move on. as of rn its not adding anything to the tier but i also do think our previous test of this pokemon is misguided as sd pass i believe is actually weaker than cursepass. ban baton pass the move, not any specific abuser.
Elekid
this will probably be the most controversial part of my post. i think elekid has become extremely unhealthy in this meta. obviously, it hits really really hard and has a movepool that lets it tech a consistent bomb vs most top meta pokemon. but what really breaks this to me is the speed and ease of spreading para. there are 3 pokemon that outspeed elekid, only 2 of which id actually call good and none that id call splashable or reliable into it. elekids best set is the resttalk variants with ice punch/psychic and sometimes pursuit as the second attack. this pokemon constrains the builder and often forces teams to use suboptimal pokemon and comps which struggle into other threats. i hate this pokemons impact on the tier and truly think its the most bannable thing here.
Dunsparce
to the surprise of no one i take issue with this big fat snake. next level bulk and ramps up too easily. this mon will often mandate multiple checks for a team to actually feel sturdy against it and many of the pokemon its checked by you can tech for easily on offensive builds or simply not very good pokemon so they drag your comp down to use them. there is a slight asterisk on this entry however as i think the 2 bans i talk about above might make dunsparce less of a headache but im not positive on that. as of rn id ban this
The next section of the post is about the poliwhirl
suspect, a subject i encourage more gsc pu likers and especially puff starters to post about Poliwhirl
This pokemon had a strange tour because it wasnt actually used very much, being brought 3 times and only winning in a mirror match
(Me vs abreuolindo)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2pu-950646?p2
(Jus vs Premonitions)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2pu-956787
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2pu-950646?p2
(Jus vs Premonitions)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2pu-956787
now for the fun stuff, my vr and reasons for those placements.
S tiers
currently i have this as the best pokemon in the tier, if my requested bp ban goes through it probably gets passed by furret but i cant see it dropping any further and that really speaks to its power. elite check to pokemon like hp ice tangela and hitmonchan, very fast for the tier, probably the most splashable resttalker. its just elite. HES BACK. long time followers of gsc pu remeber this guy as an all powerful god that was banned long before shifts. after shifts however hes been unbanned and comes out to be just elite rather than broken or overwhelming. resttalk is checked comfortably by corsola and tangela and curse is walled out by ur usual curse normal answers. this pokemon is very good but i can say confidently its found a comfortable place in the tier. after being in the tier for a very long time the stars have finally aligned to make this comfortably the best grass type in the tier, a role which seems only more important with every passing day. not much to say here just very very good. the above explains it but yeah, best curse sweeper, mandates answers on every team to just get to play the game.i think glare sets are good and deserve more exploring.
A Tiers...part 1
if i wanted to make the visual ugly itd have these guys seperated into like A1
i mean yeah, so fast and strong. switchins to thunder are either terrified of your coverage or paralysis. screw this little bastard i see ppl put this at like top 3 or 1 sometimes and ngl while i dont see it..i do think this is a pokemon who warrants a response on serious teams. fighting type damage+filling the shoes of our dearly departed i hate body slam so much. joking aside this pokemon just has like 2 main roles and does them both well. in a confusing lead metagame this shines as one of the better ones imo i hope we've woken up to realize this mon never fell off, incredible sweeper that can outpace some curse sweepers.as elite as ever.
A tiers pt2
a slight step down from pt1 but still large parts of the meta
the spiker, but you know it does that and probably know that spikes are good. but more importantly its just a good special threat in this meta, its speed feels less like of a drag now and the combination of ice beam and thief is very uncomfortable to switch into. i think this mon struggles from having next to no staying power but obv water stab tears through many teams. if this was a bit easier to fit itd easily be top 8, whirlwind on a fast and strong curse attacker is just really strong. we overrated this mon alot when drops first came out but i still think its an A tier threat, best pursuiter. i once called this the honest version of curse venomoth, which i do agree with despite the mons access to paraflinch technology(glare+rock slide) still tho its a very good physical threat B Tiers
i know im probably the only player this high on her, but this is by far the best alternate grass type to Tangela while still being a solid curse sweeper in its own right, it trades some power of the normals for instant recovery and the ability to sidestep their most common checks with its stab. i find myself building with this mon frequently. similar to hitmonchan, but with more initial physical bulk than special, lower speed, access to cross chop. this helps against curse sweepers and can be one itself. very nice i think this is the best rock just because its the best at getting around its passivity. i do think its time to admit this mons overrated, the absolute best thing it has going for it is the elekid outspeed which yes does make it pretty hard to revenge, but its bulk is just not on the level of furrets and it struggles a bit to choose between resttalk and threatening normal resists feels a bit forced to run roll out or be passive, definitely soured on this mon recently but its still very solid almost wanted to put this lower since it feels like it has no results but the potential is there, i tried a curse set i never got to bring that i think is maybe cute PUs rising star, part of puff was the realization that mantine isnt potential mon anymore its just good, ultimately a bit similar to seadra with a better defensive profile. this guys a fraud, b4 this tour there were discussions that it may be unhealthy but no its extremely passive and a bit hard to justify, definitely dont waste time suspecting this guy lol C tiers
these will be split into 2 between mons id keep pu and mons id drop
:flaafy: i think this mons usage is carried a bit by being a good response to elekid, otherwise i find it pretty disappointing in bulk and output
for now he stays pu. if bp goes hes obviously cooked but as is sd pass is strong enough to make this guy a real pu pkm i genuinely think being the tiers premier spinner is big enough of a niche to be pu, sd/screech depending on ur comp, ability to always fit a move for grass types, good special bulk. the mons got the tools and i enjoyed using it the 3rd rock and the last one im ranking pu, the problem w this guy is that its still hit by the usual hidden powers and is harder to fit. stab fire blast is nice tho so it can stay i dont like this mon, i think its a chore to use and being forced on spikes is very awkard because u then struggle to switch into alot of things idk not a fan, need to see more. cant fall to zu with a tang mu like that tho.C tiers under the cutoff
pursuit and fire blast is cool, stats are really bad tho. definitely the worst drop unfort i want to like this mon more than i do but it kinda suffers from bad resttalk rolls and phys bulk alot the test subject, i said it above but this guy like..sucks hes inconsistent and lame. frail drowzee with actual coverage, not huge on it rn 90 is too crowded of a speed tier. this mon sucks major butt, this is who i was talking abt when i said dunsparce makes you consider bad mons as serious threats, too slow, too frail, too weak, needs to literally die to make an impact. i think he's closer to gastly than the D tiers, typing is interesting.D Tiers
not gonna talk abt all of em
the remaining 2 grasses, sunfloras historic fall has only continued, probably UR without the improved elekid mu, ivysaur is mostly a swords dance mon that can enter on the rounds and rocks while flexing its toxic immunity, niche but useable.
i liked resttalk, struggles vs waters but bslam is a good move. i genuinely considered bringing it and thats more than i can say for nearly all other D tiers. the speed is cute on a fire type especiallythe other passers, ariados is like a more predictable bulkier venomoth, same attacks and moves to pass just no statuses so ur very telegraphed
eevee passes growth which im yet to actually see work but idt its unviable at all.
the bad rocks, onix is kinda just a weak rhyhorn with boom and oma is a bad corsola with more immediate power and thief.
other spinners, my thoughts rlly are just use tent. staryu has more upside with fine speed, twave, instant recovery but it just does no damage ever.
i think wartortle is really bad but atleast its the bulkiest spinner in the tier that uh..counts for something
basically, it passes barrier and agility as seen above. it's not a good mon, just a testament to how stupid bp is we need to ban this nonsense.
i tried several times to make beedrill work, boosted sludge just sounds so appealing but its too frail and slow to be good or consistent, charmeleon i think is slighty better because it can run fire blast or hp grass to be a mixed threat which is ok.
thats my vr, overall my goal with this post is more people to post about the problems i covered and also about poliwhirl so we can sort him out fast.
i enjoy gsc pu alot and hope we can continue improving it, bye bye