Ah he does play those disgusting ultra-stall teams i know, but im interested in the meta as a whole, pokemon that are checked by lax become more viable and teams no longer have 5 slots (unless you play that weird stuff)
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Resource GSC Simple Question, Simple Answer Thread
- Thread starter FriendOfMrGolem120
- Start date
Ah he does play those disgusting ultra-stall teams i know, but im interested in the meta as a whole, pokemon that are checked by lax become more viable and teams no longer have 5 slots (unless you play that weird stuff)
If applicable what mons used to be OU but happened to drop down to UU and below? (I know its a dumb question but im curious)
I wouldn't be able to tell you with certainty when the usage stats no longer impacted a Pokemon's tiering for GSC(it's due to the tiers being "frozen" that Clefable remains in DPP UU despite being used enough to reflect OU status), but I can offer you this link here which shows you the usage stats in a tier for any given month. This should give you a snapshot into what the metas looked like at any given time and which mons fell out of favor.
they are both pretty terrible, looked up usage of a bunch of tournaments and out of over 1000 games entei had been used twice and typhlosion once. Entei has one serious team made by siatam, fire blast sunny day spam with houndoom and moltress, it used to be in the sample teams.
Entei is better in that team because it has solar beam, the attack is also not wasted because it runs hp fighting (typh can run dpunch though).
Also if you are thinking of running typh you also should consider charizard, who has the same stats and very similar movepools (charizard has crunch rockslide and bdrum and typhlosion thunder punch), the only typhlosion game i found had thunder punch funnily enough.
I hate to say it depends on the context, but it really does. And that context is negligible as both are not very good within generation 2's mechanical setup.
Entei is in an awkward position as its moveset does not allow it to make full use of its stat distribution. It doesn't get much in the way of strong physical attacking moves that allow it to be a notable threat in later generations. Realistically, wherever Entei is, Moltres is also(and Moltres has more special attack than Entei, is spike immune, etc).
Typhlosion's key niche is in its access to ThunderPunch and Dynamic Punch(as Tytar4Days mentions), with the latter really mattering if you want it to make waves in OU as it makes snorlax and ttar unreliable answers(however, DPunch in of itself is not reliable, a literal coinflip
). Both of the mons you're suggesting aren't used in many, if any, serious GSC OU teams. Charizard is better due to the spike immunity and being the fastest possible belly drummer in the tier. Although both of them can technically be used in GSC UUBL, Charizard is also even better than both of them down there too.
If you want to try metagames where Entei is powerful I would point you toward SV RU(not sure if its still good, but it definitely has been consistently solid for a while), definitely ORAS UU/SM UU, and multiple VGC formats. Typhlosion... I honestly don't know of a meta where it has been standout.
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If you are still wanting to use Typhlosion, I suggest this set:
(Typhlosion) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
- Earthquake / Thunder Punch
- Fire Blast
- Dynamic Punch
- Roar / Thunder Punch
Typhlosion is walled by many OU Mons. However, it does have some moves that have low distribution on Fire Mons. EQ hits Raikou and unlike Charizard, Typhlosion is not weak to Electric. Dynamic Punch hits the king of the Tier, Snorlax. Thunder Punch is an option to hit Water types, but in reality, Cloyster or paralyzed (hard to achieve) Starmie are the only ones Typhlosion may defeat. Roar abuses Spikes and wears down Typhlosion counters on switch-in, so that the teammates have an easier time beating them.
Here is a team with it: https://pokepast.es/2cfe75f3070f0521
Since I am bored at the moment, here is my personal ranking of GSC OU Fire types:
Good tier.
1. Moltres. This guy ignores some Fire resists in Sun and is capable of 2HKOing Snorlax with Charcoal. It also has decent bulk.
2. Houndoom. Forces Booms of Psychic and Ghost types, Pursuits them. Also has Solar Beam, a second Special STAB and Counter. Hard to use, but very underrated Mons.
Decent Tier.
3. Magmar. Works like Blaziken or Infernape in later Gens, aka mixed breaker. Cross Chop is better than Dynamic Punch, though it still misses a lot. However, with a timely crit it can win vs a boosted by Curse Snorlax. Hard to use, but all Fire types are.
4. Charizard. Supposedly its a Belly Drum sweeper that abuses para. In reality, it almost never sweeps and needs too much support. I only rate it 4th and not lower because other players think its good, so I should admit that I might be wrong on it. Still, in my opinion, this is by far the worst BL Mon out of the ones that are usable in OU.
5. Entei. It has very good bulk and SunnyBeam. The bulk allows it to use other sets, such as Restalk + Flamethrower + Toxic, though it needs a lot of support to execute that.
Niche Tier.
6. Typhlosion. Already mentioned.
7. Flareon. Growth + Baton Pass. Many Roar Mons (Steelix, Rhydon) can get killed by either STAB or coverage. Instead of coverage, Flareon can run Roar itself to avoid being phazed by Raikou. Problem is it being slow and physically frail, so opponent might just try to kill it instead of Roaring it. It does hit hard however, and gets the strongest Electric move out of all Fire types, Zap Cannon.
Bad Tier.
8. Magcargo. Walls non Curse, non Belly Drum, non EQ, non Surf Snorlax... which there are not a lot. Can eat some explosions, force out steels and kinda check Gengar if it has EQ. Somehow not the worst Fire Mon to use in OU this generation (and I myself would run this more often than Charizard, fuck Charizard).
9. Arcanine. Defensive sets are fully outclassed by Entei, who is bulkier. The only niche I can see on this is Extreme Speed, but it does need some boosts to work. Therefore, Belly Drum + Baton Pass Smeargle or SD + BP Scizor are a must to have, both of those are very risky Mons to use already.
10. Ninetales. Spite, Hypnosis and Roar are the distinctive moves here, but I can,t see it working often enough. If Swagger eventually gets banned, then Confuse Ray becomes another niche, but Gengar has it too while being a far better Mon.
11. Rapidash. Like Rapidash, has Hypnosis, but not a good user of the move. Funnily enough, apart from Flareon its the only Fire Mon that learns Charm, but still too frail to use it, Umbreon is much better. Horn Drill would be a very good niche if it was allowed.
Unbiased Fire type tierlist based on power/having a niche + ease of incorporating in a team in GSC OU:
1. Moltres (SunAbuser, SleepAbsorber, GroundResist)
2. Charizard (Game ending potential + Ground Resist.)
3. Houndoom (Best Pursuiter into Egg/Jynx!/Ghosts, Thief!)
4. Entei (SunAbuser w Off. Set, SleepAbsorber w Toxflame-STalk for AntiGar/Jynx, good bulk)
5. Typhlosion (Mixed Atker w Moves for Elecs)
These 5 all have seen high level tournament experimentation but the first 3 are the only ones that regularly stood out. Entei and Typhlosion are quite hard to get the most out of.
All the others aren't worth using tbh. I toyed around with the Idea of Reflect-Stalk-Flame-Arcanine once but it was rly bad in tests.
1. Moltres (SunAbuser, SleepAbsorber, GroundResist)
2. Charizard (Game ending potential + Ground Resist.)
3. Houndoom (Best Pursuiter into Egg/Jynx!/Ghosts, Thief!)
4. Entei (SunAbuser w Off. Set, SleepAbsorber w Toxflame-STalk for AntiGar/Jynx, good bulk)
5. Typhlosion (Mixed Atker w Moves for Elecs)
These 5 all have seen high level tournament experimentation but the first 3 are the only ones that regularly stood out. Entei and Typhlosion are quite hard to get the most out of.
All the others aren't worth using tbh. I toyed around with the Idea of Reflect-Stalk-Flame-Arcanine once but it was rly bad in tests.
i agree with that apart from the entei and typh thingie but im prob biased anyway
There's two sets.
1 - bulky swords dance. defensive stalwarts like skarmory shut it down 100%, but your typical balance team which runs Golem as its main normal resist is actually going to be a little shaky against it since those teams need to shoo such threats away, and meganium is not so easily scared. It's still a little slow to develop, though, and vulnerable to "shit happens" (e.g., thunder para), so it's by no means an autowin even in the good matchups. But it's still quite strong in those cases, and pulling something unexpected / unprepared for can pay dividends in the mental game.
2 - big tank. on paper this walls everything except for Jynx, Heracross, Moltres, and Charizard, so that's the appeal. But in practice, it does nothing except inevitably die. Synthesis does not have enough PP to support this set, plus it's vulnerable to being killed by random statuses. You might frustrate a less experienced opponent with it and force an error, or get lucky and totally dominate the spikes game + incapacitate Zapdos to force some uncomfortable shuffling with leech seed, but a good opponent knows to be patient and just wait for the inevitable in the case of the former, and you can't rely on the latter. I cannot recommend it unless you're using it for some wacky double screens strategy or something.
1 - bulky swords dance. defensive stalwarts like skarmory shut it down 100%, but your typical balance team which runs Golem as its main normal resist is actually going to be a little shaky against it since those teams need to shoo such threats away, and meganium is not so easily scared. It's still a little slow to develop, though, and vulnerable to "shit happens" (e.g., thunder para), so it's by no means an autowin even in the good matchups. But it's still quite strong in those cases, and pulling something unexpected / unprepared for can pay dividends in the mental game.
2 - big tank. on paper this walls everything except for Jynx, Heracross, Moltres, and Charizard, so that's the appeal. But in practice, it does nothing except inevitably die. Synthesis does not have enough PP to support this set, plus it's vulnerable to being killed by random statuses. You might frustrate a less experienced opponent with it and force an error, or get lucky and totally dominate the spikes game + incapacitate Zapdos to force some uncomfortable shuffling with leech seed, but a good opponent knows to be patient and just wait for the inevitable in the case of the former, and you can't rely on the latter. I cannot recommend it unless you're using it for some wacky double screens strategy or something.
The only Rain use in GSC I have heard of is in Baton Pass chains, with both Growth and Agility being passed to a Rain Dance Starmie, who can use an additional boost to 2HKO pretty much everything. This would probably probably work with Omastar too, who doesnt need the Growth boost as much as Starmie, but needs the Agility one even more, though it does offer a Boom resist and walls some Laxes. The strategy is overall unreliable and hard to pull off, you will be getting more wins with Growth Vaporeon, who too can be used in BP chains but is a threat on its own.
Well, I have to say I read your post a couple weeks ago and I tried to find out a way. It is kinda useless.
In general lines: you just want to use Rain Dance as a way to guarantee Thunder landing, or boosting Water-type attacks ("useful" for BP chains maybe). But in return, Rain will expose you a lot in a meta with high Thunder and Electric-types usage, so I wouldn't reccomend. I used it as a way to (try to) enhance Suicune's offensive reach + guarantee 100% accuracy Thunder, so I could both always land one with my own elecs and be sure theirs could land Thunder into Mirror Coat cune (yeah, as a lure for elecs). But well...
Suicune Surf vs. Snorlax in Rain: 135-159 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune sucks. I guess something like Mie or Vap could take more advantage on rain-boosting in late game, but as I told you before, that just exposes them a lot. At least Cune could take a Thunder and make profits out of that.
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thanks for this i tried this with oma. most of the time i just wish for sun since rain is too easy to take advantage of. Though i am gonna try raincune+jolt as you can lure kou and remove whereas jolt can pass to you can solve that problem although jolt is quite frail so theres that.
Why does toxic revert to regular poison after a switch I thought that was only a thing in gen 1?