Lower Tiers GSC Sub-Zero Used Discussion + Resources

[missangelic]

Approved by Siatam
Format taken from the SS SU and RBY SU threads

Image credit: tetsuya koizumi for the Pokemon TCG - Cosmic Eclipse

GSC SU Discussion Thread​

This thread is dedicated to GSC Sub-Zero Used (SU), which is the lowest unofficial tier on Smogon and below ZU. GSC SU has been supported through the SU community over the last years, and its tierlist is based on the GSC ZU viability resources. We've previously hosted tours through the SU Discord, and now we have this thread for more effortful discussion on the forum!

Pokemon tiered as ZU

Aipom, Bayleef, Charmeleon, Croconaw, Doduo, Dratini, Geodude, Grimer, Ivysaur, Koffing, Magby, Mantine, Meowth, Nidorina, Omanyte, Onix, Parasect, Poliwag, Quilava, Sandshrew, Teddiursa, Tentacool, Togetic, Voltorb, Wartortle, Weepinbell

Currently, SU observes the gap between the C rank and D rank on the most recent ZU viability rankings as the cutoff for ZU. This is due to update soon.

SUBL

Pokemon/elements banned from SU: Pidgeotto, Smoochum, Swagger

SU also observes the GSC PU Trap Pass ban transitively due to ZU's own transitivity

Viability Ranking Resources

Viability Rankings with Sample Sets

New!
:dratini: Dratini
:magby: Magby
:parasect: Parasect
:sandshrew: Sandshrew


S Ranks

S Rank

Nidorino

Snubbull

S- Rank

Seel


A Ranks

A+ Rank

Growlithe

Mareep

Slowpoke

A Rank

Chikorita

Kabuto

Larvitar

Natu

Oddish

A- Rank

Jigglypuff

Phanpy

Rattata


B Ranks

B+ Rank

Butterfree

Charmander

Diglett

Goldeen

Horsea
:mankey: Mankey

B Rank

Machop

Shellder

Skiploom

Yanma

B- Rank
:spearow: Spearow

Venonat


C Ranks

C+ Rank
:bulbasaur: Bulbasaur

Krabby
:swinub: Swinub

C Rank

Ekans
:psyduck: Psyduck

C- Rank
:bellsprout: Bellsprout
:marill: Marill

Remoraid
:squirtle: Squirtle

Vulpix
:wooper: Wooper

Visual

Personal VR Maker: Link

Speed Tiers

Speed​	Sprite​	Pokemon​	Base​	Boosts​
448​	:goldeen:​	Goldeen​	63​	+2​
436​	:growlithe::horsea:​	Growlithe, Horsea​	60​	+2​
312​	:kabuto:​	Kabuto​	50​	+1​
288​	:yanma:​	Yanma​	95​	0​
270​	:larvitar:​	Larvitar​	41​	+1​
267​	:phanpy:​	Phanpy​	40​	+1​
264​	:magby:​	Magby​	83​	0​
258​	:skiploom:​	Skiploom​	80​	0​
242​	:rattata:​	Rattata​	72​	0​
238​	:butterfree::mankey::natu::spearow:​	Butterfree, Mankey, Natu, Spearow​	70​	0​
228​	:charmander::nidorino::remoraid::vulpix:​	Charmander, Nidorino, Remoraid, Vulpix​	65​	0​
224​	:goldeen:​	Goldeen​	63​	0​
218​	:growlithe::horsea:​	Growlithe, Horsea​	60​	0​
208​	:ekans::kabuto::psyduck:​	Ekans, Kabuto, Psyduck​	55​	0​
198​	:dratini::krabby::swinub:​	Dratini, Krabby, Swinub​	50​	0​
190​	:yanma:​	Yanma​	95​	-1​
188​	:bulbasaur::chikorita::seel::venonat:​	Bulbasaur, Chikorita, Seel, Venonat​	45​	0​
184​	:squirtle:​	Squirtle​	43​	0​
180​	:larvitar:​	Larvitar​	41​	0​
178​	:bellsprout::marill::phanpy::sandshrew::shellder:​	Bellsprout, Marill, Phanpy, Sandshrew, Shellder​	40​	0​
168​	:machop::mareep:​	Machop, Mareep​	35​	0​
158​	:oddish::parasect::snubbull:​	Oddish, Parasect, Snubbull​	30​	0​
150​	:nidorino:​	Nidorino​	65​	-1​
147​	:goldeen:​	Goldeen​	63​	-1​
144​	:yanma:​	Yanma​	95​	-2​
138​	:jigglypuff:​	Jigglypuff​	20​	0​
130​	:krabby:​	Krabby​	50​	-1​
128​	:wooper:​	Wooper​	15​	0​

Role Compendium

Utility Roles

Support Move Users
Note: Baton Pass is banned
Encore
:machop::phanpy::skiploom::seel:

Light Screen
:chikorita::machop::mareep: |:psyduck:
Nightmare
:butterfree::jigglypuff::natu::slowpoke:
Reflect
:butterfree::charmander::chikorita::growlithe::kabuto::mareep::nidorino::oddish::shellder::skiploom::slowpoke::snubbull:|:venonat::vulpix:
Misc.
:snubbull:(Heal Bell)



Offensive Roles

Attackers
Physical Attackers
:charmander::diglett::goldeen::jigglypuff::larvitar::machop::mankey::oddish::phanpy::rattata::snubbull::yanma:|:ekans::krabby::venonat:
Special Attackers
:butterfree::charmander::growlithe::horsea::jigglypuff::natu::nidorino::seel::skiploom::slowpoke:|:psyduck::remoraid::venonat::vulpix:
Mixed Attackers
:butterfree::charmander::chikorita::goldeen::growlithe::jigglypuff::kabuto::machop::mankey::natu::nidorino::oddish::rattata::seel::shellder::skiploom::slowpoke::snubbull::yanma:|:ekans::krabby::venonat:


Setup
Agility
:goldeen::growlithe::horsea:
Ancient Power
:kabuto::larvitar::phanpy:
Curse (typical/viable users)
:chikorita::goldeen::jigglypuff::larvitar::machop::nidorino::oddish::phanpy::seel::slowpoke::snubbull::yanma:|:ekans::venonat:
Screech
:diglett::larvitar::mankey::rattata::shellder::yanma:|:ekans:
Substitute (typical/viable users)
:butterfree::charmander::diglett::goldeen::growlithe::horsea::kabuto::mankey::rattata::seel::shellder:|:krabby::psyduck:
Sunny Day
:butterfree::charmander::growlithe::skiploom::yanma:|:vulpix:
Swords Dance
:charmander::chikorita::goldeen::oddish:|:krabby:
Misc. setup move users
:charmander:(Belly Drum), :horsea:(Rain Dance)

Other Offensive Move Users
Explosion
:shellder:
Quick Attack
:natu::rattata::yanma:|:vulpix:
Thief
:diglett::kabuto::machop::mankey::natu::rattata::snubbull::yanma:|:ekans::krabby::remoraid::venonat:



Defensive Roles

Anti-Setup
Haze
:horsea::natu:|:ekans::remoraid:
Perish Song
:jigglypuff::seel:
Roar/Whirlwind
:butterfree::growlithe::phanpy::snubbull::yanma:

Status Spreaders
Paralysis
Thunder Wave
:jigglypuff::mareep::slowpoke:
Glare/Stun Spore
:butterfree::oddish::skiploom:|:ekans::venonat:
Body Slam
:charmander::chikorita::growlithe::jigglypuff::kabuto::machop::nidorino:*:phanpy::rattata::seel::slowpoke:|:krabby:
Thunder
:jigglypuff::mankey::mareep::nidorino::rattata::snubbull:
Zap Cannon
:jigglypuff::slowpoke::snubbull:
Poison
Sludge Bomb
:diglett::oddish:|:ekans::venonat:
Toxic (typical/viable users)
:diglett::phanpy::rattata::seel::yanma:
Sleep
Lovely Kiss / Sleep Powder
:butterfree::nidorino::oddish::skiploom::snubbull:|:venonat:
Hypnosis
|:psyduck::vulpix:
Sing
:jigglypuff:
Other status spreaders
Leech Seed
:chikorita::oddish::skiploom:|
Freeze (Ice Beam)
:horsea::jigglypuff::kabuto::nidorino::seel::shellder::slowpoke:|:psyduck::remoraid:

Challenge Code

/challenge gen2zu @@@ -Abra, -Aipom, -Ariados, -Bayleef, -Charmeleon, -Clefairy, -Croconaw, -Diglett, -Doduo, -Geodude, -Grimer, -Houndour, -Ivysaur, -Koffing, -Mantine, -Meowth, -Nidorina, -Omanyte, -Onix, -Poliwag, -Ponyta, -Quilava, -Slowpoke, -Staryu, -Sunflora, -Teddiursa, -Tentacool, -Togetic, -Voltorb, -Wartortle, -Weepinbell, -Pidgeotto, -Smoochum, -Baton Pass, -Swagger

Sample Teams

Currently being updated following our recent bans!

Sample Set Compendium
Council: missangelic (SU leader), sleid, Lillith Plays, Gerrychu29, Zpice
SU Discord
Other SU Old Gens threads: SS / SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / ADV / GSC / RBY

 

[missangelic]

Reserved

 

[missangelic]

You may now post!

 

[missangelic]

I'll break the ice by sharing about some of my thoughts on the tier and its recent tier shifts, which rose all of Dratini, Parasect, Sandshrew, and Teddiursa and dropped Diglett and Slowpoke into GSC SU.

:gs/smoochum:
Smoochum is the most potent Pokemon in the tier offensively, finding 2HKOs and OHKOs against most of the tier. Ice / Psychic is incredible offensively, only resisted by Smoochum itself and newcomer Slowpoke. Smoochum remains a major threat offensively, and it has the room to fit Shadow Ball for opposing Smoochum and Hidden Power Electric to 3HKO Slowpoke. Diglett has a lot of potential as a new drop that's faster and can do at least 60% to Smoochum, but the tier is still strapped for reliable offensive responses to Smoochum besides finishing it off with something faster or praying you get a paralysis off on it.

:gs/pidgeotto:
:dratini::nidorino::mareep::rattata:
Pidgeotto also remains dominant after the tier shifts. Dratini often ran boltbeam coverage and potentially Reflect to ease its team's matchup against Pidgeotto, Parasect could tolerate Double-Edge and heal with Synthesis, and Teddiursa could use Curse to pressure Pidgeotto. Diglett is a rare new revenge killer that can finish off Pidgeotto, but its Rock Slide only does 33.4% minimum to non-Hidden Power variants, which is underwhelming. Slowpoke is a rare Pokemon that isn't likely to be 3HKOed by Double-Edge, but it's quite passive in front of Pidgeotto. The tier shifts have made Mareep better, which can help, but Pidgeotto still seems really tough to survive and bring down at the moment. RIP to Wing Attack sets. I can see Nidorino becoming even more important to dealing with Pidgeotto now that Parasect isn't around. Rattata has some competition with Diglett around, but the departure of Parasect opens it up a lot more.

:gs/diglett:
:yanma::phanpy::sandshrew:
Diglett is a very cute new addition to SU that differentiates itself from Yanma with a strong STAB move and access to Substitute. Its bad bulk does it few favors for switching in, especially when Nidorino and Mareep commonly run Ice-type coverage. Pidgeotto's (and Rattata's) tendency to wear itself down with Double-Edge recoil works in Diglett's favor, but Diglett's more middling power is going to be an issue if threats like Smoochum and Natu haven't been weakened. Phanpy is a lot more reliable as a switch-in to Mareep than Diglett, and its better bulk and lack of competition with Sandshrew make it a lot more relevant too. Phanpy's bulk actually makes it a pretty good wall to Diglett as well.

:gs/slowpoke:
:seel::mankey::machop:::horsea:
I'm very excited to have Slowpoke as a bulky Water-type that finally breaks the mold Seel has been growing in the tier. Slowpoke's Body Slam is just that little bit stronger, but Slowpoke can also run Thunder Wave for more direct paralysis, and it's quite good at spreading paralysis as a Water-type. Slowpoke's extra physical bulk is handy against Pidgeotto as well as Ground-types like Larvitar and Phanpy. Mankey has a lot more reason to run Thunder with Parasect gone and Slowpoke around. Slowpoke's Psychic isn't very strong, but it can be offensively relevant against Nidorino, Oddish, and Fighting-types. Seel might still be the better Curse user between the two of it and Slowpoke because of its better special bulk. Seel's special bulk is also still relevant for Smoochum, Growlithe, and Horsea. Horsea in particular would love for teams to stop running Seel in favor of a Pokemon that is 3HKOed by Hidden Power Electric, especially now that it doesn't have to deal with Parasect. However, I think Slowpoke is going to establish itself as a headlining bulky Water-type right next to Seel for the reasons I've already listed and more.

:gs/parasect:
:chikorita::oddish::growlithe::charmander:
With Parasect's rise comes some changes. Chikorita and Oddish have the most to gain from the departure of their biggest competitor. Chikorita could really thrive by flaunting its Ground resistance and Rock neutrality in the faces of Phanpy and freshman Diglett. Oddish has to contend with a very different SU than it had in mid-2024 now that Smoochum and Natu are around, but it still has Sludge Bomb, Grass STAB, and Stun Spore to put a lot of the tier under pressure. Mareep might be incensed to run Hidden Power Grass to hit Larvitar harder now that Dratini is gone, but I think it should keep running Hidden Power Ice to stay relevant against the Grass-types I'm expecting will rise from their Parasect understudy roles. Growlithe and Charmander will miss Parasect, their favorite prey, but if other Grass-types fill the vacuum, they'll remain in work. Additionally, both of them enjoy Dratini's departure taking away a defensive answer to their Fire Blast + Hidden Power Grass coverage.

:gs/teddiursa:
:snubbull::jigglypuff::kabuto::larvitar:
Teddiursa was a major threat that was overlooked during the more chaotic phase of ZU, but it's returned to the tier to be a top threat there. Snubbull is a long-time SU veteran that has a very similar stat spread and movepool, giving up Earthquake for options like Heal Bell, Reflect, and Present. Snubbull's lower Speed is a little bit of a liability in a metagame where Mareep has become even better, but I do think it's a pretty easy shoe-in for what Teddiursa was doing before, and little else can perform its role. Jigglypuff isn't exactly the same as a Teddiursa understudy as Snubbull given it's not as strong, but it does have more utility between Thunder Wave and Body Slam, especially relevant against fast threats like Smoochum and Pidgeotto. Kabuto loves Teddiursa rising and taking its Earthquake coverage with it, and its Surf is a reliable 3HKO against Snubbull thanks to the latter's lower Special Defense. Larvitar also enjoys Teddiursa's rise, and it's a much more secure switch-in to Present and Electric-type coverage variants of Snubbull.

I'll use this last part to discuss some underrated or underexplored gems:
:swinub: Swinub caught my attention after a long period of being seen as irrelevant, mostly because SU did not have relevant Electric-types (sorry Pichu) before Mareep. Its ability to switch into Hidden Power Ice variants of Mareep is nice, and 50 Speed does let it get the jump on Mareep, Sandshrew, and Grass-types. However, its stats are still pretty bad overall, limiting it to this one role.
:goldeen: Goldeen is really cool as a Swords Dance sweeper, especially one with access to Agility and the bulk to set up in the face of opposing Water-types. Parasect was much bulkier than any of the Grass-types that remain, and Goldeen really enjoys chip damage on Mareep. Krabby has similar traits, but it lacks Goldeen's bulk for setting up or access to Agility.
:ekans: Ekans was written off for a while after the tier received actual Psychic-types, but I've carried a small torch for it in the era of Nidorino and Parasect. Now that Parasect is gone and the tier is poised to potentially use other Grass-types, Ekans might salvage some of its older niche.

This next step for GSC SU looks really cool, and I'm looking forward to reading others' thoughts about this hidden gem of a meta!

 

[cringing in chat]

seels my goat

 

[missangelic]

Hi! The GSC SU council will be looking at tiering action on two Pokemon: Pidgeotto and Smoochum

:rs/pidgeotto: :rs/smoochum:

:pidgeotto:
If you've read my previous post, let alone played GSC SU, you'll have seen and felt the impact that Pidgeotto and Smoochum have. I'll be discussing Pidgeotto first, as it's had a bit more history in the tier to cover. In the 2024 GSC SU metagame, we reached a point where Pidgeotto was too much for most teams to handle. Fast Normal-types being good in GSC lower tiers is not a surprise, but Pidgeotto is an opportunist of how few reliable answers there are to fast Normal-types left this far down. Nidorino can switch in and wall Pidgeotto... until it takes a critical hit, has its Leftovers stolen, takes any prior damage, or just runs out of its measly 8 Morning Sun PP, while Pidgeotto just gets to either dig in and waste Nidorino's PP or play hit-and-run by forcing Nidorino to heal while it gets to bring in a teammate for free. Kabuto and Larvitar are both ruined by Hidden Power Grass variants, sets that have not gone out of style, and not much else has really made Pidgeotto easier to stomach. My belief is that the metagame will improve immensely with Pidgeotto being gone, as we're really seeing a lot of sequences where games will come down to Pidgeotto Speed ties or Sleep Talk turns, and my goal with GSC SU is to reduce how many games are decided by coinflips and random luck. Rattata and Natu are much more easily managed compared to Pidgeotto because they're hardly as bulky as fast attackers, a metagame I'm looking forward to exploring.

:smoochum:
Smoochum has been in GSC SU since the major 2024 tier shifts, and it's stuck around after the minor tier shifts earlier this year. If you've played with Smoochum, you'll have seen how obnoxious it is to try and deal with. Thief, Dream Eater, and Hidden Power Dark sets are capable of punishing and breaking through the two bulky Water-types you'll see on every team just to try and hold back Smoochum. Even these supposedly solid responses to Smoochum can just outright fail with bad luck because of how powerful Smoochum is, as critical hits can cause them to just lose straight up. Crits aside, freezes from Ice Beam or SpDef drops from Psychic can also just render Slowpoke and Seel unable to answer Smoochum anymore. This, of course, has also led to sequences where people just check Smoochum with their own Smoochum by using Shadow Ball and holding their breath during the Speed tie coinflip. Like with what I described with Pidgeotto, this is not a healthy state for the metagame to be in, and I really think the metagame will improve dramatically with Smoochum gone. Natu does not have the same sheer breaking power as Smoochum, and it won't be pulling off bs freezes that basically remove its only checks from the game.

I welcome those who have played GSC SU since shifts to share their thoughts on these Pokemon if they'd like, but our plan is to put up the result on these Pokemon by the weekend. Thanks for reading!

 

[ZeStinky]

im going to crash out if skiploom isnt banned after this

 

[fish1107]

I agree with Miss here and I will add that Smoochum has the ability to just do whatever it wants in its last move slot. Blizzard for extra power,Sing to add even more luck into a mon that's full of it (see Ice beam freeze and Psychic chance to drop sp.def) and Icy Wind to prevent any mons on a double switch from being able to kill and that's just what other people ran. I ran Psych Up on a HO type to prevent curse sweeper from setting up and a Perish Song,Protect and Mean Look to enable Pokemon that like the bulky water’s being removed. So I'm fully for the ban’s of these 2 freaks (I did’t talk about Pidgeotto because it like boring broken but you get the point)

 

[cringing in chat]

In my opinion, pidgeotto has a decent amount of checks but yeah, smoochum is broken and i would partake in a suspect for both

 

[missangelic]

Hi! The GSC SU council has opted to ban both Pidgeotto (5-0) and Smoochum (4-0, 1 abstain). We will be continuing to keep a close eye on the metagame after these two bans, and we will be refreshing our resources in the upcoming weeks to reflect the changes to the metagame. I look forward to reading your thoughts about these bans and the potential trends we may see as a result of them!

 

[ZeStinky]

get ready for the zestinky crash out

 

[missangelic]

I just got out of GSC SU Discord 2025 tour, but I'm here now to deliver my thoughts on the post-bans metagame and my personal VR.

:gs/natu::gs/rattata:
These two are arguably the biggest winners of the bans, as they lost two direct competitors for their places on teams on top of two Pokemon that inflicted major damage on them.
:natu:
Natu doesn't have the same incredible power or dual STAB options that Smoochum has, but it comes pretty close. STAB Psychic hits the entire tier besides Slowpoke and Natu itself (don't use trash like Unown or Wobbuffet, even down here, seriously), so Natu is a pretty strong wallbreaker that doesn't have to worry much about getting any clicks right. A lot of Natu's toolkit is the same as Smoochum's, and its secondary STAB move of Drill Peck is nice against Chikorita, which is trending in response to the bans (more on that later). RestTalk sets can either run Drill Peck or Hidden Power Dark/Electric for virtually perfect coverage against the entire metagame, Thief sets can disrupt Seel, and Natu's fully capable of running an all-out attacker set with Giga Drain and all the attacking moves in its arsenal. I think there's still untapped potential for Natu with options like Dream Eater, Nightmare, and Confuse Ray, so don't be afraid to give it a try!
:rattata:
Rattata replicates Pidgeotto's Speed tier without as much of the same great bulk or usable Ground immunity and Grass resistance that made Pidgeotto overbearing. You're free to copy plenty of other fast Normal-types' sets from across GSC lower tiers. Rattata is free to play like its daddy Raticate with RestTalk Super Fang, but its movepool contains a boatload of options amongst limited competitors in GSC SU. Thunder nails Kabuto and Slowpoke, Hidden Power Grass can finish off Larvitar, Screech is great for wallbreaking, Substitute can take advantage of switches Rattata can force, and it's even got Quick Attack in its arsenal to pick off a tricky Diglett. Rattata is just frail enough to feel balanced for its Speed tier and power.
:butterfree::yanma::spearow:
There are less obvious understudies that can benefit from the removals of the stars, Pidgeotto and Smoochum. Butterfree enjoys that there's not a faster, bulky RestTalk user eager to absorb Sleep Powder, and it can flex more of its Speed tier without Pidgeotto around. Getting rid of Pidgeotto slowed the metagame down and made Swords Dance sweepers like Goldeen and Chikorita better off, so Butterfree can take advantage of that to incapacitate them if they're foes or support them with free turns if they're allies. Yanma is another bug that enjoys not inviting in one of the most fearsome Pokemon in the metagame, although it had a decent niche for striking down Smoochum with Hidden Power Bug, so it's up in the air on how much friendlier the metagame has truly gotten for Yanma. Grass-types like Chikorita and Oddish trending (keep on keeping a pin in that idea) are nice for Yanma, but it's even better for Spearow. Like Rattata, Spearow lacks Pidgeotto's great bulk, but its STAB Drill Peck is fantastic at putting extra pressure on Grass-types. Its place in the metagame is more speculative at the moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if people start experimenting with it more now.

:gs/chikorita::gs/oddish:
Although they've been regaining momentum for a while, the bans have been extremely friendly to Chikorita and Oddish. Even though both Grass-types enjoyed Smoochum forcing Seel and Slowpoke onto every team, those two Water-types are still so good in the post-bans metagame that the tier is now even better for Chikorita and Oddish. The two are great anchors for teams, and they've indirectly benefited from the bans' effects on the metagame too.
:chikorita:
Chikorita is fantastic at fending off Ground-types like Larvitar, Diglett, and Phanpy, the last of which is particularly easier to bring without Pidgeotto around to switch into its Earthquake. Swords Dance sets are a bit trickier to cut down without Smoochum being an auto-include on teams, as Nidorino and Rest-less Growlithe can be victims of Body Slam paralysis. Utility like Light Screen, Reflect, Leech Seed, and even Growl are all workable for Chikorita outside of setup, and Body Slam paralysis can be a death knell for overly aggressive offensive Natu.
:oddish:
Fighting-types like Mankey and Machop have improved drastically without Pidgeotto and Smoochum waiting in the wings to cut them down, so things keep coming up Oddish. Like Chikorita, Oddish enjoys not worrying about having its Swords Dance sets cut down by Smoochum, and Rattata has a tougher time chewing through it than Pidgeotto. Oddish's lower Speed than Chikorita can be a bit tricky for it, but Stun Spore can easily mitigate that issue.
:bulbasaur::bellsprout:
There are two other Grass-types that one can run (Skiploom notwithstanding), although they're generally less effective than mini Gloom and diet Bayleef. Bulbasaur is a hybrid of Oddish and Chikorita, possessing both Sleep Powder and enough Speed to tie Seel and get the jump on Larvitar and everything slower. The issue is that Bulbasaur lacks a strong physical STAB move or the same great Ground resistance as Chikorita. Being part Poison is still tough with Natu and Slowpoke free, and Bulbasaur doesn't have Stun Spore in its kit to slow down Natu or Growlithe directly either. Bellsprout has a more similar movepool to Oddish and at least outspeeds Mareep, but it's unfortunately slower than Larvitar, Seel, and most of the rest of the tier while packing a fraction of the bulk that Oddish and Chikorita have.

:gs/ledyba:
I'd like to use this moment to talk about Baton Pass, one of the last unhealthy parts of GSC SU that I feel needs to go before the tier can truly be in a great state. There have been grumblings about BP in other GSC lower tiers, and even though SU seems to have some pretty terrible options for BP, the cheesy results are all the same, and I would like to see the strategy axed.
:ledyba:
The star of Baton Pass is Ledyba, which might seem pretty silly. Still, Ledyba has just enough tools to make it so that the game plays itself once it's found its opportunity. 55 Speed isn't actually bad by GSC SU standards, and the bans have slowed down the metagame to the point where Ledyba is a lot easier to get away with. 40 / 80 bulk is also quite good relative to most other Pokemon in the tier, and Ledyba's ability to rather quickly set up Light Screen or Barrier helps it and its teammates start the snowball.
:oddish::goldeen::charmander::krabby::spinarak:
In terms of recipients, passing Speed to something with sleep like Oddish is laughably broken, giving Oddish the chance to set up in the face of any non-RestTalk user, and even Sleep Talk users are trying to play around guessing how many turns of sleep there will be on top of whatever moves they pick. Oddish isn't the only solid Speed recipient, as Charmander, Goldeen, and Krabby are other Swords Dance sweepers that love the extra turns for setting up afforded by defensive boosts from Light Screen and Reflect. You can even embrace the cheese entirely with Belly Drum Wooper to set up in the face of Mareep, and it's still fast enough to get the jump on everything but Yanma, Diglett, and Skiploom. Even though Baton Pass tends to be all-or-nothing and reliant on Ledyba, Spinarak is available to act as a second chance to help a teammate out.
:growlithe::horsea::natu::seel::snubbull:
Baton Pass is a pretty nasty matchup fish, although there is counterplay. Roar Growlithe can phaze Ledyba, and Ledyba really only gets one clean shot at passing Speed. Haze users like Horsea and Natu can also shut foes down before they get out of control, and there's even niche options like Perish Song Seel or Charm Snubbull and Jigglypuff to try. Unfortunately, all of these are just terrible avenues for these Pokemon to go down, as they have very little reason to run these moves outside of trying to stop Baton Pass. If Growlithe is dealing with setup sweepers like Oddish or Chikorita, then it's using STAB Fire Blast to cook them. The same goes for the other special attackers that I've mentioned, Horsea and Natu, which have far better options they'd want to fit in their fourth moveslots anyway. I think the most direct way to solve the problem is simply to ban Baton Pass outright, removing a matchup-fishy and linear playstyle from a metagame that is dying to get to a less swing-y place than it is.

Wow that was a lot of talking without even posting my personal VR! Let me cut to the chase:

On S ranks:
:nidorino::snubbull:
These two goons are two of the more flexible and dangerous Pokemon in the metagame. The elimination of Pidgeotto and Smoochum has massively freed up Nidorino, a Pokemon that especially enjoys the trend towards Grass-types. It's naturally one of the fastest and bulkiest Pokemon in the metagame with reliable recovery, and its toolkit of options like Lovely Kiss and Thief on top of boltbeam coverage make it a menace to play around without strong special attackers and status. Snubbull loves that the metagame has slowed down some more, giving it and its Curse sets more leeway to punch big holes in teams. Snubbull has been going through a huge renaissance since the departure of Teddiursa earlier this year, though, branching out to options like Hidden Power Ground, Lovely Kiss, Roar, Heal Bell, Charm, and even Reflect, justifying a bump at this point for how varied it's become on top of the threat level of its standard CurseTalk set.
:seel:
Seel has taken the crown back from Slowpoke in this metagame without as much desperate need to inflict paralysis on Smoochum and Pidgeotto. Getting the jump on Larvitar, Phanpy, and Mareep can be quite convenient, although Seel taking its place towards the top drives new trends like Grass-types and Goldeen, so sometimes its success ends up biting it back. Still, it's one of the best blanket checks to special attackers like Growlithe, Horsea, and Natu while doubling as a solid response to Rock-types.

On A ranks:
:mareep::growlithe:
I think Mareep has remained one of the best special attackers in the tier, even with the rise of Grass-types, as Electric-types are Like That in GSC, and Mareep is great at spreading paralysis and even overwhelming Oddish with Hidden Power Ice. Mareep, Normal-types, and Nidorino are all too happy to overload Larvitar, and there's so few reliable responses to Electric-types in GSC SU that Mareep keeps its key position. Growlithe doesn't enjoy Seel's presence at the top, but its raw special power helps it overwhelm Curse sweepers and beat Grass-types, cementing itself as one of the best fast special attackers. My hot take is that Chikorita is A+, as I've felt like it's popped up a huge amount in the post-bans meta.
:larvitar::kabuto:
Ironically, Larvitar and Kabuto feel better off without Pidgeotto in the metagame, although that's not surprising to players who have seen their Rock-type get deleted by Hidden Power Grass. The metagame slowing down has helped Snubbull and other Curse users a lot, making both Rock-types feel more necessary to bring.
:goldeen:
I love the goldfish, and I'll keep stanning this queen until the day I die. Being able to set up freely in the face of Seel and Slowpoke is an incredible niche, and Goldeen's Speed is even more distinguished now that Smoochum and Pidgeotto aren't around. Rattata, Mankey, and Natu are much less consistent or powerful of revenge killers, and the slower metagame enables Goldeen to get comfortable and start setting up.

On B ranks:
:diglett::mankey:
I think there's some room for these frailer fast attackers like Mankey, Charmander, and Diglett to show off a lot more without Pidgeotto and Smoochum in the mix. Chikorita's rise can frustrate Diglett. Even though Diglett has Sludge Bomb, it generally wants to save its moveslots for Substitute and Screech if it's not already running Thief. Mankey really enjoys not being picked off by Pidgeotto anymore, but that hasn't changed the accuracy issues of its best moves, Cross Chop and Thunder. Parallel to Diglett, Mankey isn't such a fan of Oddish getting better. Charmander and Horsea are also kind of figuring themselves out in a post-Smoochum world. Horsea matches a lot of Smoochum's special power, but it's not able to blow through Seel without critical hits or outside Thief support. Charmander has similar struggles against the tier's bulky Water-types, but it's also enjoying that Grass-types, its favorite prey, are on the rise.
:machop::skiploom:
Like the Grass-types, Machop has gotten a lot better without Smoochum in the metagame. Additionally, it's a great option at dealing with the trends in Snubbull and Rock-types thanks to STAB Cross Chop. Earthquake is a fantastic tool to differentiate Machop from Mankey, dealing massive damage to Nidorino, and Machop is still just fast enough to outspeed Oddish. Skiploom is on the other end of attacking, benefitting more from the trends of Fighting-types and Swords Dance sweepers seeking to overwhelm the metagame. Amazing Speed and access to Encore along with reliable recovery and other utility like powder moves makes it a really neat support piece. It's unfortunate that Skiploom is painfully passive, invites in Growlithe freely, and doesn't even resist Electric on top of having a 4x Ice weakness.

I won't really be touching on the C ranks too much because I think this stage of the metagame is still very fresh. I would really like to see action on Baton Pass and some more time to pass where we can play the tier in a state where there isn't cheese or massively overpowered threats. Beyond that, my two big wishes for the tier are to hold a tournament on the forum later this year and hopefully to get an update to the tierlist that gives us a few extra utility options.

 

[missangelic]

Hi, I'm double posting here with an announcement:

:gs/ledyba::gs/spinarak:
Baton Pass is now banned from GSC SU

The GSC SU council has noted the sudden rise of Baton Pass cheese during our Discord tour. After some deliberation, we're opting to quickban the move.

:ledyba::spinarak:
Baton Pass saw some fresh experimentation when Parasect was in the metagame, as it had the bulk to set up and sweep with Swords Dance as well as incapacitate counterplay with Spore. While Parasect's rise took away one of the better sweepers for the tier, Swords Dance Oddish has neatly taken its place. With the addition of SD Oddish, Baton Pass teams have become much better to the point of being overwhelming.
:oddish::parasect:
Baton Pass is a very linear strategy that primarily relies on Ledyba passing Agility to Oddish or other setup sweepers. Ledyba does have a reputation as a weak Pokemon, but it has just enough in its kit to act as a reliable Agility passer in GSC SU. Barrier and Light Screen especially enable its teammates to set up comfortably and sweep, and it's not even slow for the tier before Agility, as it can use its defensive boosts to thwart offensive Pokemon like Mareep or Larvitar. While we could ban Ledyba, as it is the better of the two Agility passers, Spinarak is also capable of getting the ball rolling. Given Baton Pass doesn't add much to the tier, axing it is the better option compared to needing to ban two Pokemon that have almost nothing to do outside of Baton Pass.
:krabby::goldeen::charmander:
In terms of counterplay to Baton Pass, there's enough sweepers in the metagame between Oddish, Krabby/Goldeen, and Charmander that just running one anti-setup Pokemon like Roar Growlithe is often not enough to stop the strategy. Considering Oddish has access to sleep, it can also just shut down Roar users that lack Rest and Sleep Talk. These phazing moves aren't even especially good in a tier that lacks any Spikes users. Options like Haze Horsea are similarly quite bad, and a lot of the counterplay to BP is a huge opportunity cost for its users. Even with BP being an all-or-nothing strategy, even counterplay to it can end up flopping because of sleep or being in front of the wrong setup sweeper. Baton Pass strategies aren't even limited to just these sweepers, as there's niche options like Belly Drum Wooper to take advantage of Mareep. Banning one sweeper wouldn't shut down the strategy in its entirety either, as Bellsprout could just as easily take over for Oddish.
:growlithe::phanpy::horsea:
All of the linear, matchup-dependent, and limited counterplay aspects of Baton Pass have lead us to choose to quickban BP from the metagame.

Our plan currently is to update the GSC SU VR with a snapshot of this post-BP metagame. I'm personally happy about this new iteration of the tier, seeing as the metagame is approaching a more balanced, less centralized, and less cheesy state. Look forward to more news about GSC SU later this year.

 

[missangelic]

Following the ban on Baton Pass and our VL being so old it still includes Pidgeotto and Smoochum, we've put together a more comprehensive GSC SU VR, just before any tier shifts! Gerrychu was unable to participate, so thank you to fish1107 for providing tiebreaker votes.

Change List

Top to SUBL: :pidgeotto::smoochum:
New to A+: :slowpoke:
New to B+: :diglett:
High to ZU: :dratini::parasect::sandshrew::teddiursa:
High to S: :nidorino:
High to S-: :seel:
High to A+: :growlithe::mareep:
High to A: :kabuto::natu:
High to B+: :butterfree:
Mid to S: :snubbull:
Mid to A: :larvitar:
Mid to A-: :jigglypuff::phanpy::rattata:
Mid to B+: :charmander::horsea::mankey:
Mid to B: :yanma:
Low to A: :chikorita::oddish:
Low to B+: :goldeen:
Low to B: :machop::shellder::skiploom:
Low to B-: :venonat:
Low to C+: :krabby:
Low to C: :ekans:
Low to C-: :remoraid::vulpix:
Low to UR: :cyndaquil::ledyba::spinarak:
UR to B-: :spearow:
UR to C+: :bulbasaur::swinub:
UR to C: :psyduck:
UR to C-: :bellsprout::marill::squirtle::wooper:

Expect more updates to come, especially with both of the impending ZU and PU VRs!

 

[missangelic]

With the recent GSC ZU VR update, the tierlist of GSC SU is going to be updated. We’ll be observing the cutoff for what is considered ZU to be between B and C.

Moves to ZU: :diglett::slowpoke:
Moves to SU: :dratini::magby::parasect::sandshrew:

I’m looking forward to sharing my impressions on these shifts (Magby!) once I’ve gotten some games in. Come join us for discussion and matchmaking in the SU Discord!

 

[missangelic]

Magby: The Fallen Titan of Old ZU​

:gs/magby:
If you played, or even just saw, GSC ZU before 2024's tier shifts introduced a ton of Pokemon into the tier, you'd know that Magby was one of the most dominant Pokemon in the tier. Fire-type competition in ZU is much more fierce now with Quilava and Ponyta in the tier as well as Charmeleon's recent unban from ZUBL, pushing Magby out for its frail stats. In addition, the higher levels of speed tiers in the metagame have risen as Aipom has installed itself as a top Pokemon, and Pokemon like Staryu, Voltorb, and Poliwag have been part of the tier at points before returning now. With so many of these Pokemon in ZU once more, it doesn't look likely that Magby will be returning to the tier, so it's our hydrogen baby now! #StepchildUsed
:magby:
Magby saw an overwhelming amount of usage in pre-shifts ZU because of its ability to act as a strong lead and wallbreaker, so its presence reinforced the top spots of Pokemon like Croconaw and Togetic that answered it. Magby's dominance makes it clear why Meowth and Diglett were superior revenge killers to Yanma, even in early ZU. Here, without Pokemon like Croconaw or Togetic, Magby is poised to be just as powerful, perhaps even more so. I'll get into what I think will be some of the best sets in SU to start:

Magby Sets

Thief (Magby) @ Nothing / Miracle Berry
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Ice
- Thief

One of Magby's biggest walls, Seel, can be 3HKOed by Thunder Punch once it loses its Leftovers, but Thief itself is just a fantastic progress-making tool in a tier without Spikes and just one Explosion learner.

Rest (Magby) @ Mint Berry / Miracle Berry
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Ice / Thief
- Rest

With a Mint Berry and Rest, Magby can shrug off status from leads like Lovely Kiss Nidorino and Thunder Wave Mareep, and the extra status resilience helps it switch in more aggressively against Fire-weak status spreaders like Parasect, Chikorita, Butterfree, and Oddish. Having Rest to restore Magby and effectively play with a "second life" in your back pocket is great when Magby is one of the strongest Pokemon in the tier. If you're greedy, you could run Thief over Hidden Power on Magby and try to snag Leftovers from a wall like Dratini or Seel, but Magby struggles to break through Larvitar and opposing Magby if it shirks Hidden Power.

RestTalk (Magby) @ Leftovers
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch / Cross Chop / Psychic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Even though I firmly believe Magby is at its best when it has 3 attacks in its set, a RestTalk set is still functional, and it even matches up well against the sleep move users of the tier: Butterfree, Nidorino, Oddish, and Parasect. With Rest and Sleep Talk in its arsenal, Magby can more comfortably tank Body Slam from Chikorita and shrug off paralysis repeatedly. However, this set unfortunately lacks the flexible coverage of its 3 attacks sibling set. Thunder Punch still works as long as your opponent's Rock-type is Kabuto, but it's pretty bad if they're running Larvitar. Cross Chop grants Magby virtually perfect coverage against the tier, a super effective attack against the Rock-types, and a way to 3HKO other Magby, but it has some tough issues with consistency when considering Sleep Talk rolls and Fire Blast + Cross Chop misses. Psychic also offers Magby perfect coverage (RIP Slowpoke), and the Special Defense drops it inflicts can even let Magby overwhelm non-Surf variants of Dratini and Seel in a vacuum, but it doesn't hit Magby's checks as hard as its other moves.

3 Attacks Filler (Magby) @ Leftovers
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch
- Hidden Power Water / Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Ice
- Protect / Barrier / Cross Chop / Psychic / Sunny Day / Confuse Ray

This is basically the Magby slop pile. Magby really just needs 3 attacks to function, so you're free to run a whole lot in its fourth slot. Protect helps Magby to squeeze out some extra Leftovers recovery, which can make the difference in the mirror against a Hidden Power Ground variant. Barrier can give Magby a bit more breathing room to take hits from physical attackers like Snubbull or Curse Nidorino, and this can let it avoid being revenge killed by Yanma's Hidden Power Ground, but it's a tricky move to make use of when Magby is already so frail. Cross Chop actually 2HKOes Jigglypuff, OHKOing it with a critical hit, and its increased chance to score a critical hit can actually let Magby OHKO Kabuto and Larvitar with some luck, but its poor accuracy makes this move pretty unreliable as a replacement for Hidden Power if you're not running Hidden Power Ice. Psychic is another alternative coverage move, one that isn't as inconsistent as Fire Blast against Morning Sun Nidorino, but it doesn't have a lot of use outside of this one matchup. Sunny Day gives Magby even more power, enough to potentially OHKO Sandshrew and reliably 2HKO Jigglypuff, and it weakens Surf to nerf checks like Seel and Dratini. Last, Confuse Ray is there for cheese, but it's not very honorable.

Even with Magby's great power, I do think SU has the tools to keep Magby as more of a top offensive presence than a banworthy piece. I'll go over some things that help rein in Magby:
:dratini:
Dratini is a very sturdy answer to any Magby set lacking Hidden Power Ice, which Magby does not want to run over Hidden Power Water or Hidden Power Ground due to having an inferior mirror matchup. Thunder Wave ruins Magby, Dratini can 2-3HKO Magby with Surf, and the odd Extreme Speed variants of Dratini can even surprise and pick off weakened Magby.
:seel:
Seel can take Magby's Thunder Punch even better than Croconaw, and it has Body Slam as compensation for being weaker than Croconaw. Thief is something Seel has to watch out for, but a Magby staying in on a Body Slam variant of RestTalk Seel is playing a dangerous game.
:nidorino:
With Leftovers, Nidorino is only 2HKOed by Magby's Fire Blast 1.9% of the time, so it can PP stall Magby's strongest attack with Morning Sun and potentially get a lucky miss. This does force Nidorino to pray for no critical hits or Fire Blast burns, but Magby has to connect with its Fire Blasts repeatedly, a tall order for unlucky players.
:jigglypuff:
Protect + Thunder Wave variants of Jigglypuff can lead against Magby and avoid being 2HKOed by Fire Blast. Trading your Jigglypuff to ruin your opponent's Magby seems like a pretty good trade to me, and Jigglypuff even has tools like Ice Beam and Counter to help it beat other leads and switch-ins to Thunder Wave.
:kabuto::larvitar:
Magby pretty securely 2HKOes Kabuto with Thunder Punch, and Hidden Power Water can do upwards of 95% to Larvitar, but Magby itself does risk being 1v1ed by both of these Pokemon. Larvitar's Earthquake is almost guaranteed to OHKO Hidden Power variants of Magby (97.6% to OHKO Hidden Power Ice, the bulkiest and probably least common), and Hidden Power Ground variants can't 2HKO Larvitar. Kabuto only has a 64.1% chance to OHKO Magby with Hydro Pump, and the shaky accuracy is a pain for consistency, but every bit of damage against Magby can help, and Ancient Power is always there if you want consistency that might turn into a lucky payoff.
:phanpy::sandshrew:
Phanpy is the better of the two mono Ground-types of the tier at taking Magby's special attacks, as Magby's Fire Blast only has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO it, and Phanpy's Earthquake has a 64.1% chance to OHKO non-HP variants of Magby (100% against HP Water, 94.9% against HP Ground), so it's workable in a pinch. Sandshrew's poorer special bulk makes it worse off at taking a hit from Magby, but its extra Attack compared to Phanpy gives it the ability to consistently OHKO any variant of Magby. Once Magby is paralyzed, these Ground-types and the aforementioned Rock-types of the previous section can threaten to remove Magby.
:goldeen::horsea:
Although Magby has Thunder Punch to deal major damage to Water-types not named Seel, the others in the tier can still put up a good fight. Goldeen is just bulky enough to not be 2HKOed by Thunder Punch, enabling its Surf variants to beat Magby in a vacuum. Horsea needs to run Hydro Pump to OHKO Magby, as it's 2HKOed by Thunder Punch, but it does 1v1 Magby as long as Hydro Pump connects. Both Goldeen and Horsea can also use Agility to sweep Magby and its weakened teammates in a late-game scenario.
Paralysis (:mareep:|:butterfree::parasect::chikorita::oddish:)
Anything that can threaten to paralyze Magby is quite good, as Magby's bad bulk is only mitigated by its amazing Speed giving it the initiative to KO what's in front of it before it has to take a hit. Mareep would rather not switch into Fire Blast or HP Ground, it can use Thunder Wave to hinder Magby, and Light Screen can even give it some extra breathing room. Butterfree doesn't do much to Magby and takes a ton of damage (but not an OHKO) from Fire Blast, but if it has to, it can at least threaten to status Magby. Stun Spore seems like the safer option for Butterfree to go for when Magby can viably run Mint Berry + Rest.
Parasect's return to SU comes at a time when a Fire-type is the most dominant Pokemon in the tier, which is pretty tough, but its way of fighting back against letting Magby in (if it's not leading) is primarily through status. Although Miracle and Mint Berry variants of Magby can still aggressively come in on Parasect, Parasect's threat of status is very serious to Magby, whose frailty makes it much more easily dealt with once it's no longer the second-fastest Pokemon in the tier. Hidden Power Ground is Parasect's strongest attack on paper against an incoming Magby, 2HKOing it, but Body Slam can 3HKO Magby after Leftovers recovery and threatens to neutralize it with paralysis. Special Parasect variants that don't run Stun Spore seem like they won't be fit for this meta, and physical or mixed Parasect will probably be the way to go.
Chikorita and Oddish both got chances to make comebacks when Parasect left the tier, so its return and Magby's dominance are tough on them. Chikorita's Body Slam hits for less damage compared to Parasect, only 4HKOing non-Leftovers Magby. However, Chikorita's lack of a 4x weakness actually does mean that it's only OHKOed by Magby's Fire Blast 56.4% of the time, meaning that Chikorita can go for a desperate paralysis fish and still live, and Light Screen variants will only be 2HKOed 14.3% of the time. There's more to Chikorita too, as it boasts a great defensive profile against the returning Sandshrew and remaining Larvitar. While it's not Thunder, Chikorita's Razor Leaf can score critical hits and potentially overwhelm Seel, although Chikorita nicely has Swords Dance and Body Slam paralysis to do something similar. While Parasect is a lot stronger than Chikorita, Chikorita's extra Speed ensures it isn't at risk of being outsped by Larvitar, Mareep, and Fire Blast variants of Dratini and Machop. The 4x weaknesses actually does impact Parasect compared to Chikorita and Oddish as well, as it takes more from Fire- and Flying-type attacks than they do, notably in a metagame where Yanma has more to do. I've included a bunch of calcs for contrasting the Grass-types and seeing the ways they distinguish themselves.

Grasses Calc Comparison Wall

Chikorita and Oddish have identical HP and Special Defense, while Chikorita has 10 more Defense.
:charmander:
Charmander Fire Blast vs. Parasect: 442-520 (136.8 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Charmander Fire Blast vs. Chikorita/Oddish: 250-294 (85.3 - 100.3%) -- 2.6% chance to OHKO
:dratini:
Dratini Fire Blast vs. Parasect: 268-316 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dratini Fire Blast vs. Chikorita/Oddish: 151-178 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- 94.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dratini Ice Beam vs. Parasect: 107-126 (33.1 - 39%) -- 8.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dratini Ice Beam vs. Chikorita/Oddish: 120-142 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
:growlithe:
Growlithe Fire Blast vs. Parasect: 479-564 (148.2 - 174.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Growlithe Fire Blast vs. Chikorita/Oddish: 272-320 (92.8 - 109.2%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO
:mankey:
Unfortunately for Mankey, its coverage has been restrained again by the return of Parasect. Mankey can't fit both Hidden Power Ground to beat Nidorino with Hidden Power Flying to beat Parasect (and Oddish). Rock Slide at least can flinch or 3HKO Parasect, and it's good against Natu and Yanma.
Mankey Cross Chop vs. Parasect: 54-64 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- possible 7HKO
Mankey Rock Slide vs. Parasect: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- 37.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mankey Cross Chop vs. Oddish: 66-78 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO
Mankey Rock Slide vs. Oddish: 67-79 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO
:natu:
Natu Drill Peck vs. Parasect: 268-316 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Natu Drill Peck vs. Chikorita: 153-180 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- 97.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Natu woould just use Psychic vs. Oddish (204-240 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery))
:spearow:
Spearow Drill Peck vs. Parasect: 296-348 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 48.7% chance to OHKO
Spearow Drill Peck vs. Chikorita: 168-198 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Spearow Drill Peck vs. Oddish: 183-216 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
:yanma:
Most Yanma should be running Hidden Power Ground these days, primarily to 2HKO Magby and deal super effective damage to Mareep and Nidorino on the switch. Running Hidden Power Ground lowers Yanma's HP and Attack DVs to 7 and 12, respectively.
Yanma Wing Attack vs. Parasect: 228-268 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yanma Wing Attack vs. Chikorita: 129-152 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yanma Wing Attack vs. Oddish: 139-164 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 23.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

All that wall to say that I don't think Chikorita and Oddish are necessarily out of jobs again just because Parasect came back. Oddish takes a harder hit than Chikorita in my opinion, but both still have valid roles.

First Impressions VR
Just based on some initial games, this is what the tier looks like to me right now, unordered within ranks:
Top
:magby::seel:
High
:chikorita::dratini::goldeen::jigglypuff::kabuto::larvitar::mareep::natu::nidorino::parasect::phanpy::sandshrew::shellder::snubbull::yanma:
Mid
:butterfree::charmander::growlithe::horsea::machop::mankey::oddish::rattata::skiploom::spearow::swinub:
Low
:bellsprout::bulbasaur::ekans::krabby::marill::psyduck::remoraid::squirtle::venonat::wooper:

And here's some free teams for people looking to dip their toe in the tier:
Lead Magby Thief Spam: https://pokepast.es/35a0f4817d3de8fd
Lead Magby Nidotu: https://pokepast.es/cbe3cd11e7254cf0
Lead Magby Parabull: https://pokepast.es/c56b6f6333943568
Lead Magby Curserino: https://pokepast.es/f5e66c798f2e5296
Lead Magby Minty Nightmareep:
https://pokepast.es/6988853e42520dd2
Lead Shellder Double Normal: https://pokepast.es/507f076df832cdbc
Lead Shellder Paralarv: https://pokepast.es/d99783d117e1c580
Lead Spearow Mintini: https://pokepast.es/f53325bee3e5e3e2

 

[missangelic]

Taking a page out of some of the spotlights I've been doing in the ADV SU thread, I'll be following up the above highlight on Magby with one for Seel! I'll also be sharing some more detailed thoughts on the tier's recent changes through a personal VR later in this post.

If you've played GSC SU since its inception, it should come as no surprise that Seel is a top Pokemon. Seel is the best Water-type in the tier, and likely the second-best Pokemon in the tier thanks to Magby being at the top, as it is one of the few Pokemon that is unlikely to be 3HKOed by any of Magby's moves as long as it holds onto its Leftovers item. Seel's role isn't just as a Magby check though, that's a newer development, as Seel's great bulk and defensive typing makes it one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier period. Pokemon without strong Electric-type coverage moves, such as Horsea and Yanma, fail to 3HKO Seel, making its RestTalk set very potent. 45 Speed is just enough to get the jump on the tier's main Ground-types, Larvitar, Phanpy, and Sandshrew, and it even lets Seel finish off weakened Mareep, Snubbull, and Parasect. STAB Surf + Body Slam have effectively perfect coverage against the tier, and Body Slam's chance of inflicting paralysis can swing positions in Seel's favor as it softens up offensive threats like Natu and Nidorino for its teammates. Ice Beam is another good option for status fishing on Seel, which it often finds room to do thanks to its bulk, and the ability to inflict a freeze is one of the few ways to majorly swing a game in GSC SU, where there's no Spikes and just one Explosion user. Deterring Dratini as well as Parasect and other Grass-types with more than Body Slam paralysis can be to Seel's favor, although just spreading yellow magic is often team support enough for Seel.

Seel Sets

RestTalk (Seel) @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Body Slam / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

As mentioned above, Seel is one of the best defensive RestTalk users and sleep absorbers in the tier because of the combination of its bulk and typing. Body Slam paralysis can be very punishing to switch-ins like Thunder Nidorino, and it keeps Seel from being too passive while it's asleep, but it can be substituted with Ice Beam to make Seel more threatening to Grass-types like Parasect in tandem with Dratini. As Seel can be setup fodder for Goldeen, whose Substitute survives both Surf and Body Slam, Hidden Power Electric might be justifiable if your team is too passive, but it doesn't have much use outside of this matchup and the uncommon Krabby, whose Substitute rarely survives Surf anyway. Unfortunately for Seel, Hidden Power Electric is only a chance at 5HKOing an opposing Seel, giving Body Slam better utility in a mirror matchup with some paralysis luck potentially denying an opposing Seel the ability to use Rest.


Curse (Seel) @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Surf / Sleep Talk

If you've seen how Croconaw's Curse set works in ZU, this set should not be a surprise to you, and unlike Croconaw, Seel has the privilege of running Body Slam to soften up and disrupt Pokemon like Nidorino, Butterfree, Parasect, and Mareep to the point that they might not be able to stop Seel from snowballing. Seel's bulk enables it to skip running Sleep Talk so that it can fit Surf for Larvitar and Kabuto, which can be roadblocks to a set running Body Slam as its only attacking move, but Seel's ability to act as a sleep absorber and potentially overwhelm Kabuto anyway with paralysis and repeated hits are good enough that running Sleep Talk is still a solid option.


Support (Seel) @ Leftovers
- Surf
- Encore
- Toxic
- Protect / Rest / Ice Beam

Running Seel without RestTalk is pretty unorthodox, but this NU Dewgong-like set capitalizes on Seel's access to Encore to give it the ability to surprise Curse users like Nidorino, Jigglypuff, and Snubbull expecting to punch through Seel after boosting. As Seel is often setup fodder for Swords Dance users, Encore is helpfully disruptive to Goldeen and Parasect as well. As this iteration of Seel is quite passive and lacks recovery, it often needs to fit Toxic, which punishes Synthesis Parasect variants (along with Chikorita) and forces opposing Seel to use Rest. Protect can help with Seel's recovery since this set can't fit Sleep Talk, but Seel is bulky enough that it can get away with running Rest without it. If recovery isn't a big concern for Seel though, then Ice Beam can help it keep up some pressure on Dratini and Grass-types. Unfortunately for this variant of Seel, Encore is an Egg move, so it's incompatible with Substitute, a transfer-only move that would otherwise be great for blocking Giga Drain and fishing for Thunder misses.

:gs/magby::nidorino::kabuto::natu::mankey:​

With Seel being one of the biggest obstacles to Magby cleaning up, some teams and gameplans are going to center around weakening and removing Seel if possible. Thief-spam as an archetype is the ur-example of this, featuring the aforementioned Magby alongside other Thief users like Nidorino, Kabuto, Natu, Mankey, and Yanma that can draw in bulky Pokemon like Seel to deprive them of passive recovery, a valuable gameplan when there's so few consistent ways to make progress in GSC SU. Thief is a pretty widely distributed move, so there's a lot of building flexibility if you want to center your team around this strategy.

:gs/mareep::nidorino::dratini::mankey::snubbull::jigglypuff:​

When it comes to actually breaking Seel, strong Electric-type moves are generally the best choice. Mareep's strong STAB Thunder makes it very relevant for this reason, and it's joined by other users like Nidorino, Dratini, and Mankey. There's also the odd Thunder or even Zap Cannon use from Snubbull and Jigglypuff for this purpose, and the paralysis inflicted by these moves can critically put Seel in a position where it's weakened, slowed down, and unable to use Rest due to full paralysis.

:gs/parasect::chikorita::goldeen::charmander:​

On paper, Grass-types are solid against Seel, but when the Body Slam paralyses start to come out, they can get a bit shakier. Chikorita's Razor Leaf is only a 4HKO against Seel, requiring a critical hit to break it, and while Parasect's Giga Drain is a 3HKO, the low PP of the move can cause it to be PP stalled in the long games that GSC SU can lead to. As such, one of the better ways to break through Seel is actually by running Swords Dance on these Pokemon. Goldeen makes a place for itself in this tier as a Swords Dance user that's especially adept at beating Seel's RestTalk set 1v1, as its Substitute will survive Surf and Body Slam, and it can potentially run RestTalk itself to shake off unfortunate paralysis inflicted while switching into Body Slam. Charmander might seem like a rough choice to break through Seel, but needing to answer Charmander with Seel can actually open up its partner Magby to break through Seel after being weakened by Charmander. Just be wary that Double-Edge and Belly Drum are incompatible on Charmander, so there's not an opportunity for a clean OHKO from full after setting up.

:gs/snubbull::gs/jigglypuff:​

Then you've got the Normal-types, which can generally push a lot of damage on Seel. Snubbull's strong Return 3HKOes Seel, and Seel's passivity can give it opportunities to get a Curse set up, although Snubbull is at risk of being 3HKOed by Seel's Surf. Jigglypuff's slightly better special bulk lets it naturally avoid being 3HKOed by Seel, and it has Body Slam and Thunder Wave to further trip up Seel to the point it might not be able to slow down Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff even packs a more devious way of surprising Seel with a deletion: Present. With the way Present is glitched in GSC, Jigglypuff can do its best impression of Chansey and hit Seel very hard with the move, although this has the same issue as running Zap Cannon in that it's gambling on an RNG-heavy move.

:gs/seel:​

Ultimately, the way that you'll often see Seel answered... is by itself. It's not uncommon in GSC SU to witness two RestTalk Seel get into wars with each other where they're fishing for their preferred status to proc against the other Seel on a wakeup turn, and they'll PP stall each other at times too. This tends to lead to some pretty unengaging gameplay, but it's sometimes the safest path when you can't afford for your other pieces to risk being paralyzed by Body Slam, even if that means risking one of your best defensive Pokemon in the process. Let's go gambling!

With Seel's spotlight down, it's time for my personal viability ranking

S ranks
:magby:
:seel:​

It shouldn't be at all surprising to see Magby followed a subrank behind by Seel given everything I've said in this post and my previous one. Playing without Magby is giving up the best offensive piece in the tier, and Seel is one of the best defensive options available, so you should generally be fitting both of the them onto most teams.

A ranks
:nidorino::parasect::snubbull:​

The three Pokemon I have in A+ are what I think are generally the most flexible and strong pieces in the tier, but they're not auto-includes in the same way as Magby and Seel are.

:dratini::kabuto::larvitar::mareep:​

No surprise, the A ranks are strong too, although some of their value comes from being reactive to the things at the top of the metagame more than they tend to drive the metagame themselves. You're generally going to want a Rock-type on every team to keep down Normal-types and soft check Magby, and both of them have their own distinct advantages (Kabuto has Thief + better Speed than Seel and Dratini, Larvitar checks Mareep and has strong STAB EQ and Screech for wallbreaking). Mareep is strong as the de facto non-Pichu Electric-type of the tier, which is valuable for breaking Seel, and Dratini fulfills a similar role of having strong special coverage and paralysis utility on top of being a very hard answer to Magby variants that don't dedicate Hidden Power Ice for it, potentially sparing your Seel its Leftovers.

:jigglypuff::natu:​

Two ball shaped Pokemon share this rank, cute! Jigglypuff is comparable to Snubbull as a Normal-type threat, one that differentiates itself with better special bulk and a bevy of utility like Thunder Wave and Counter. Natu has perfect coverage for the tier between its STABs, no longer contends with Slowpoke walling it, and can get interesting with options like Thief, Dream Eater, Giga Drain, and even Confuse Ray. Both of these Pokemon are solid, but they don't earn spots or attention in the builder as easily as everything above them.

B ranks
:charmander::chikorita::goldeen::mankey::phanpy::rattata::sandshrew::yanma:​

This meta more than the last has felt pretty top-heavy with both Magby and Seel being on most teams, so it's a bit harder to fit some off-picks. Still, Swords Dance users like Goldeen, Chikorita, Charmander, and newcomer Sandshrew can find ways to distinguish themselves as wallbreakers. Phanpy takes a more support/defensive role compared to Sandshrew, and I rank them about on the same level for having one good set and one meh set. The gap between Rattata and Yanma has closed a bit on both sides with Magby's drop into the tier; Rattata still feels fine as a revenge killer, and Yanma still comes off as somewhat fraudulent, but both have their places as speed control. Mankey is a step below Natu in my opinion for its consistency issues and failing to bring the same great coverage with two slots, but the two do play very similarly with strong STAB and access to Thief and other utility tools when they're not running RestTalk.

:butterfree::growlithe::horsea::machop::shellder::spearow:​

Butterfree takes over Yanma's position as arguably the worst fully evolved "real" (aka not Ditto, Unown, and Wobbuffet) Pokemon in GSC, as status absorption is pretty easy in GSC SU, and Butterfree tends to just play as a more utility-focused Natu without Thief or a stronger Psychic and Flying-type STAB. Growlithe is joining Horsea here in these middling ranks now that it's overshadowed by Magby and lost Slowpoke as a target for wallbreaking with Crunch. The two of them are mostly noteworthy as niche Agility or Substitute users that are going to be reliant on their teammates to soften up problem Pokemon like Seel for them. Comparatively, Machop doesn't move much after tier shifts, mostly just flexing that it has Fire Blast compared to Mankey to overwhelm Parasect, although fitting it is a bit tricky. I like Shellder, and I might be willing to bump it just for its ability to make progress and force some KOs against Curse users, but it can't 1v1 Magby or several other leads without using Explosion. Spearow is an up-and-comer for similar reasons that Rattata, Natu, and Mankey are good, as it has a good speed tier and its STAB moves hit a lot of the tier hard, although Magby's hegemony does discourage further use, and Natu, Yanma, Mankey, and Rattata generally overshadow it.

:oddish::skiploom::swinub:​

Insector Gadget's return has once more demoted Oddish from relevance due to its poorer stats, and it's also crimped Skiploom's ascension. While I do believe there's places on teams for both Grass-types to succeed, Magby's near-universal presence has made their jobs even harder, and it doesn't help that Psychic- and Ice-type attacks are everywhere either. Swinub sits with these Grass-types as something on the cusp of real relevance, as it's the best switch-in to Mareep in the tier, but its amazing offensive typing is let down by horrible stats that make it straightforward to play around.

C Ranks
:krabby::venonat:​

These two Pokemon lead the C ranks as pieces that previously had potential, but both of them now suffer from metagame changes making it more difficult to run niche options. Krabby might be able to punch a hole in Seel for its teammates, but there's better and more consistent ways to do this with Goldeen, Parasect, or even Shellder than having to run a slow, specially frail Swords Dance user in a tier packed to the brim with Pokemon wanting to run Thunder for breaking through Seel. Venonat just struggles to find a place on teams where its job wouldn't be better done by something like Nidorino or even Butterfree, and like Swinub, its low stats and many weaknesses are big letdowns.

:bulbasaur::ekans::psyduck::remoraid::wooper:​

Bulbasaur, like other Grass-types, does not enjoy Parasect's hegemony of the tier, although it can leverage Parasect's lower Speed to put it to sleep and Swords Dance in its face... unless it's facing RestTalk Parasect. Ekans, like Venonat, wants to find a way to break into the metagame, as it packs legitimately interesting tools like Thief, Earthquake, Giga Drain, and Glare, but its stats, even in a tier as power-starved as SU, do not hold up. Psyduck might have decent stats and some neat utility moves, but it really struggles to find a place on teams over Seel. As Seel is such a fixture of the tier, Remoraid can actually flex Thief to save Magby or its teammates a moveslot for breaking down the great wall, and its access to Flamethrower is a viable alternative with Parasect once more in the tier (it doesn't OHKO though, so watch out). Of Water-types in the tier, Wooper is probably my favorite potentialmon, but I think a lot of my bias comes from how cute it is. Swinub, another low BST baby, plays similarly as a Mareep switch-in, but Wooper doesn't even have a decent Speed stat to work. However, Wooper's resistance to Fire, immunity to Electric, and neutrality to Water, Ground, and Ice could actually make it a decent soft check to Magby, something that's at the forefront of GSC SU at the moment.

:bellsprout::squirtle::vulpix:​

This is where C-rank turns into j-ank. Take what I said about Bulbasaur, trade its slightly better bulk and Speed for STAB Sludge Bomb and Stun Spore, and you've got Bellsprout, but forfeiting even just that bit of Speed hurts its matchups against Larvitar and base 40 Speed Pokemon. Then, there's Squirtle, which is fully a downgrade to Seel that gives up a lot of bulk for gambling with Zap Cannon or failing to really make use of utility moves like Counter, although it might be best just to run both Water-types and let Squirtle get its Leftovers stolen just for Seel. Vulpix is mostly a downgrade to Charmander and Growlithe as a secondary Fire-type that forfeits power for odd utility, but it can punish Magby that think they're cute for skipping HP Water/Ground.

Visual in case you hate reading

Thanks for reading! I hope this post can provide some insight into one of the more obscure tiers in GSC, and I hope to do more spotlights on the Pokemon in the tier.