Lower Tiers GSC UU

[Earthworm]

The third GSC UU iteration of the DerDomme Cup has just gone into signups so it is time to spark a fresh discussion on the GSC UU tier.

Smogon's tier list was updated

Firstly, each iteration of the tournament, as well as the GSC NU tournament hosted earlier this year, was played using the tier list available on Mount Silver (which mirror PO's tiers). In terms of Pokemon allowed in UU, there are three differences between that tier list and the one currently available on Smogon, namely Ampharos is allowed and Venusaur/Smeargle are banned. I am not advocating that one is better than the other but because (as far as I know) almost nobody plays using Smogon's GSC UU tier list, I will be going by the Mount Silver list, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

I have created a personal viability list here and am adjusting it as I become more experienced with the tier.

The dominant Pokemon are Nidoqueen, Ampharos, Slowbro, and Scyther.

Nidoqueen is the strongest Pokemon in the tier, being very effective both defensively and offensively. What it lacks in raw power it makes up for in coverage and defensive typing, stats, and movepool. While there are Pokemon who can stop Nidoqueen at least temporarily, Nidoqueen is often under no pressure at all when switching into certain Pokemon, whereas Nidoqueen's answers tend to be risking getting frozen or taking a critical hit. The standard instant recovery option in Moonlight enables Nidoqueen to repeatedly switch into Pokemon and wreak havoc, although it can also use alternative movesets effectively.
Ampharos is an extremely strong Pokemon against a lot of the tier, threatening huge amounts of damage and paralysis with Thunder. It is also very tanky on the special side, with numerous special attackers failing to 4HKO, let alone 3HKO. However, it can do little to stop Nidoqueen switching in. Its options include hitting it for 30% on the switch or setting up a screen of its choice. The latter is more effective in dealing with Nidoqueen, but sacrifices coverage, which can be critically important against other Ground-types.
Slowbro (and Slowking) are very bulky waters which can take on a lot of Pokemon and use a variety of sets, including a plain Rest Sleep Talk + 2 Attacks set, or a Thunder Wave set, or various others, and they deal significant chunks with their STAB attacks.
Scyther is a flexible offensive Pokemon. It outspeeds most of the tier and given too many free turns can use SD to sweep on its own. However, when a slower Pokemon that beats Scyther one-on-one switches in, it can Baton Pass the boosts to a teammate, such as Nidoqueen, Granbull, Dodrio, Dugtrio, Piloswine, etc.

Although they don't stand out as much as those above, Granbull, Politoed, Kabutops, Dodrio, Electabuzz, and Quagsire are big threats to look out for.
Granbull is a powerful Restalker, capable of using either the utility-focused Heal Bell or the very threatening Curse alongside its STAB attack. Its bulk leaves a little to be desired and it can easily be put out of commission by a critical hit, and can be walled by various normal-resistances.
Politoed is unpredictable and has well distributed stats. It can use a Surf + Growth set with Sleep Talk, Amnesia, Curse, or a secondary attack, and it is also capable of using Whirlpool and Perish song or even Lovely Kiss and Belly Drum. Building a team centred around Politoed is not a bad idea.
Kabutops has a niche of being a normal-resistant Swords Dancer with respectable speed. Its Def stat makes it surprisingly durable and it can get AncientPower boosts in a pinch.
Dodrio is a fast and powerful physical attacker. Few non-normal resistant Pokemon want to switch into Dodrio's STAB Normal attack, and it can also use Hidden Power Ground to fend off some of the normal resists. It doesn't have a lot of options outside of those, but can use Thief, Drill Peck, Substitute, Swagger, or even ResTalk, Low Kick, or Hyper Beam.
Electabuzz, while hard-walled by Ampharos, is otherwise very difficult to outright wall. It is capable of using a Meditate or other specialised set to help it get past Ampharos, but this will limit its offensive coverage.
Quagsire is incredibly scary for defensive teams. Its typing is key for facing HP Ice Ampharos. Its Belly Drum set can easily sweep slower teams, including when Quagsire receives Agility from Girafarig or Scyther. Curse Quagsire is not the worst idea either.

Qwilfish is also particularly notable for being the tier's best spiker, and as usual Spikes are very useful to have, alongside phazers in particular. It also outspeeds and threatens Nidoqueen, and threatens the tier's best spinner.
Blastoise is the tier's best spinner and is also a decent phazer. Ideally, in my opinion, it should be used with Spikes support to give it something to do against Qwilfish switch-ins (Roar).

There are many other strong Pokemon in the tier, and I would consider anything that I rated 5.5 or above in my spreadsheet to be viable.

Here is a sample team with a bunch of standard Pokemon with slight modifications:

Hide

Ampharos @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
IVs: 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Nidoqueen (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Earthquake
- Moonlight
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
- Surf
- Psychic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Return

Qwilfish @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Sludge Bomb
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump
- Curse

Crobat @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
IVs: 24 Atk / 26 Def
- Haze
- Toxic
- Confuse Ray
- Hidden Power [Flying]

If you search for "Earthworm" in the replay viewer (at time of writing) you can watch a lot of GSC UU replays from today.

I would like to hear what others have to say about the tier. Feel free to post interesting sets, replays, or criticisms.

 

[Machiavelli]

I played this tier a few months back for fun, here are some sample sets of the offensive pokemons :D

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

This is the lovely kiss variant which is amazingly good as a lead.

Quagsire @ Leftovers
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Belly Drum
- Rest

Another beast, very hard to stop without a dedicated check.

Magneton @ Leftovers
IVs: 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Substitute

This sub set is very good because of twave + steel type is hard to take down. I always use hp grass otherwise quagsire walls you but you could probably get away with something else.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
IVs: 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Double-Edge
- Zap Cannon
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ground]

One that you would not think is effective, but actually is. You hit a lot of things really hard with these strong moves, and cover a lot of pokemon. It makes for a decent powerhouse on offense.

 

[BKC]

Moonlight Nidoqueen is quite good. It has to give up Lovely Kiss for it but it's really nice for keeping it healthy.and makes you less pressured by the very scary Dodrio.

Haunter is amazing. Blanking mono Normals is very useful and its Explosion (a rare move in the tier) saved me many times. I usually used Hypnosis on it to make up for Queen's lack of LK.

 

[Xeze]

I played in that tournament two years ago. Here's two sets that I've used.

Politoed @ Leftovers
Belly Drum
Double-edge
Earthquake
Rest

This guy got me a precious win against Isa. After the opposing team has been weakened and statused (mainly with paralysis), Belly Drum and go to town. Lovely Kiss can work over EQ, but I like the coverage for Magneton and other normal resists.

Dodrio @ Polkadot Bow
Return
Hidden Power Ground
Endure
Flail

Return, because Double-edge + Flail is an illegal combination. Getting Dodrio down to 1 HP isn't hard because he is very frail. This works well as an endgame sweeper. HP Ground is for normal resistant mons, mainly Magneton and Haunter.

 

[Earthworm]

That Dodrio set looks like it should be the standard, I can't imagine other sets being much better. I think Rest could probably be dropped on the Politoed set unless it suits your team in particular though.

 

[Xeze]

I think Rest could probably be dropped on the Politoed set unless it suits your team in particular though.

My Politoed had Rest because I paired him with a Heal Bell user (Granbull). But you're right, if used without Heal Bell support Rest is probably not that useful. Maybe LK over Rest and keep DE + EQ coverage.

 

[Jorgen]

I always saw Toise doing well as a sleep talking water that could outspeed Nidoqueen. Nidoqueen is #1 mon in GSC UU imo so I see that as a pretty important role. Zap Cannon is an interesting coverage move to keep opposing Slowbros and stuff out of your face while also being able to status things.

Also reiterating that Moonlight Nidoqueen is certainly good. Most teams lean on it heavily for defense, so foregoing LK can certainly be worth the extra longevity. Also IMO Fire Blast > Ice Beam in UU because otherwise Pinsir sets up on Nidoqueen and that poke is scary as shit.

ST Dodrio I always saw as best. Dodrio doesn't get enough OHKOs with Flail to be worth it imo. Meanwhile ST lets you fire off Double-Edges without being afraid of eventually dying from recoil. And also gives free switches into stuff like Jumpluff who can otherwise be kind of annoying.

I never really liked Scyther because once it's statused it's pretty much done. However, after seeing the PS logs of it, it certainly seems pretty darn scary. Plus last time this tourney was held I lost to a Reversal Scyther so you'd think I'd have turned around by now :X

Magneton might well be the Starmie of UU. In that its presence forces Pokes to run things to beat it, because it's just so good if you don't do so, but it's pretty mediocre in a metagame where people will almost certainly be using their Magneton-beating sets all the time.

Piloswine and Sandslash seem underrated imo. Quagsire chronically overrated. Yeah it's only weak to grass but it can't attack for beans without popping off a BD either.

No idea whether or not Spikes are actually hugely important in this meta. Dodrio can often smash through Slowbros even without them (though they certainly help!), and other stuff that doesn't die (e.g., ampharos, chansey) tend to sponge hits so well they aren't likely to suddenly go down with a little Spikes help (think Raikou trying to kill other Raikou/Blissey in OU, with or without Spikes; it doesn't happen).

 

[Earthworm]

You make a lot of good points. Flail Dodrio is certainly not the only good set; there are passive Pokemon that Restalk can take advantage of on occasion.

Fire Blast vs Flamethrower vs Ice Beam is an interesting point. Freeze is very strong and Ice has good coverage (hitting ground, flying, and grass) for general usage. Fire Blast decidedly has better SE coverage in the meta (in terms of hitting as many important Pokemon as possible hard) but you then don't have a perfectly accurate move to hit some important Pokemon. Fire Blast's low PP can also potentially be taken advantage of by Grass types, although I concede that would be tricky to pull off. Moonlight seems very good but makes it harder to break through some Pokemon like Granbull and others who aren't 3HKOed. I wouldn't be surprised if Moonlight became the option of choice. I agree that Nidoqueen is the #1 Pokemon at the moment.

I didn't consider a plain Restalk Blastoise because I think that may be done better by Slowbro, but Zap Cannon may be interesting.

 

[Isa]

Omfuga defeated me a year ago with Reversal Primeape. :(

 

[M Dragon]

Magmar is probably my fav underrated mon, it hits hard and has an amazing coverage.
Victreebel is another dangerous threat

 

[Fireburn]

This meta is interesting. A lot of teams are Water heavy and its not unusual to see 2-3 Waters per team because of just how well Nidoqueen shuts down most of the Electric-types. It's very difficult to justify not using Nidoqueen since its simultaneously the best offensive Pokemon in the tier and one of the most useful defensive Pokemon. Some of the less common things I like:

Bellossom @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
IVs: 26 Def
- Stun Spore
- Razor Leaf / Hidden Power Grass
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Leech Seed
- Moonlight

Bellossom checks quite a few things and makes an excellent Paralysis spreader since it scares off Grounds and the ST Waters/Electrics. It's serviceable against Nidoqueen, Ice Beam only having a 2.4% chance to 3HKO, and it performs well against DrumQuag, Sandslash, all the Electrics, and does a good job vs most Waters (though you can't kill the Rest Talking ones without fishing for Razor Leaf crits). You can go Double Powder, but I usually find that most of the time what happens is that ST Dodrio comes in to gobble up your Sleep Powder, so I prefer using the 3rd slot for a move that can at least kind of hamper it. HP Ice smacks Dodrio for 40-47% which isn't too shabby and is also useful against other Grasses like Jumpluff, and Leech Seed can help cushion the blow for your Dodrio switch-in and has more general use. Leech Seed is illegal with Razor Leaf though, so if you want STAB with Leech Seed you'll have to use HP Grass or Giga Drain.

Toxic and Reflect are also available to Bellossom if you are interested in some other options.

Sudowoodo @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
- Curse
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct

Sudowoodo performs well against birds, Granbull, and Magmar (to an extent), but its main use is to lure in and destroy bulky Water-types. Sudowoodo always survives Blastoise's Surf (after Spikes) and Slowbro's Surf (only 28% chance to KO after Spikes) and OHKOes both with +1 Selfdestruct, which can open up offensive Grounds such as Nidoqueen and Piloswine to wreck shop. Earthquake is quite useful to keep Nidoqueen out, and Sudowoodo can actually beat Nidoqueen 1v1 if she comes in as Sudowoodo uses Curse. Having a Normal Resist that isn't x4 Ground weak like Magneton or Electric weak like Omastar is also a nice plus.

 

[Bughouse]

If you're dead set on Flail Dodrio, then it can fit in Agility over Return imo in order to outrun Electabuzz, Crobat, Scyther, etc.

Also I haven't played this tier in ages, but iirc this team usually worked well for me:

Hide

Hypno @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Seismic Toss
- Rest

Gyarados @ Leftovers
- Double-Edge
- Zap Cannon
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
- Earthquake
- Surf
- Curse
- Rest

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

Jumpluff @ Leftovers
Ability: Chlorophyll
- Encore
- Stun Spore
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Return
- Heal Bell

 

[Mr.E]

Nidoqueen is retarded and should be banned from GSC UU because it's literally Nidoking with boobs which is very much definitely OU. ;[

 

[Lavos]

To preface this post, I've played around 10 games of GSC UU, these are just my preliminary thoughts.

I think Nidoqueen is completely broken and shouldn't be allowed in this tier. Every game revolves around her. I haven't even seen the LK set yet because there's no reason not to use Moonlight/EQ/IB/Thunder when almost nothing in the tier can 2HKO you. The only "defensive" switches to her are RestTalk Granbull and RestTalk Slowbro/Slowking. All of these narrowly escape being 3HKO'd and can be easily dealt with, primarily through the use of Spikes to add the extra damage on the switch necessary to secure 3HKOs. The easiest way to deal with Nidoqueen is to switch in on an EQ with your Slowbro/Slowking and hope it misses Thunder. That's not what I would call reliable. Qwilfish doesn't switch in but it does outspeed and 2HKO which is unique in itself.

Yes, both Nidoqueens end up dying eventually (except when they don't). But in my opinion that's too often the result of gambling on speed ties and misses. Nidoqueen is analogous to Snorlax in OU in terms of raw power, except you always know exactly what Nido is running and you still can't beat it. With Lax, you play around it and figure out its set, then create a long-term plan to answer it.

Being that this is the first lower tier I've ever taken seriously, I'm not sure if this is the case with all of them. Is this a phenomenon which occurs in almost every lower tier - one or two Pokemon completely dominate the metagame? Or is this unique to GSC UU? If it's the latter, ban plz.

Ampharos would sweep pretty much any team without opposing Ampharos and Nidoqueen. It rarely does much because every team has Ampharos and Nidoqueen. Thus it seems better in theory than in practice, especially given the longevity of Ampharos and Nidoqueen, but it's still mandatory because if you don't bring it then your only answer to the opponent's Ampharos is your Nidoqueen which is already their number one priority to kill. Both players tend to waste all their momentum swings on getting a crack at freezing or paralyzing or critting Nidoqueen.

Granbull's Heal Bell set feels terrible. The meta is too fast for it. RestTalk on the other hand is capable of 6-0ing teams without Roar or a Ghost, which is a lot of them. Every game I face this set I wish I'd kept a Haunter in the back.

Qwilfish is kinda shit and very hard to switch in, almost everything can hit it hard on any given turn, but Spikes are so valuable that it's worth using. I think Curse is a bad 4th moveslot, never got a chance to use it given how everything 2HKOs it and it's usually from the Special side of things. Haze is an option, I could even see Surf + HPump on the same set so you don't have to take a potentially gamebreaking 20% risk for KOs.

Scyther is hard to switch in, and shares Qwilfish's problem of getting 2HKOd by anything, and OHKOd by a few things. Swords Dance is strong but you'll rarely get a chance to pass it. I think Pinsir generally outshines Scyther despite lacking BP. Gets better coverage and doesn't have any common weaknesses. Still outruns Ampharos and Nidoqueen, the latter can't even 2HKO it. Hits surprisingly hard.

Dodrio is great in most cases. Use Endure, not RestTalk, it's way too frail. In a tier where good stall doesn't exist and everything has BoltBeam coverage there's no sense putting Rest on a Flying-type. 225 BP Flail with Pink Bow bonus is STRONG. And the meta lacks decent Rock-types.

I have yet to see a Quagsire but my opponents often had HP Grass on Amph as a preemptive counter. Seems too slow and frail to Drum, and if it isn't Drumming then why are you using it?

Anyways, 90% of games are decided by whose Nidoqueen dies first, so don't worry too much about all the rest.

 

[Fireburn]

It's also worth noting that Granbull can't 2HKO with Return and has a pretty high chance of getting screwed by a crit or freeze because of how much it needs to Rest loop vs Nidoqueen.

After playing some more games I think Nidoqueen is potentially broken. Moonlight is what pushes it over the edge for me, since with it Nidoqueen can just sit in on so much of the tier until it finally gets what it needs to break its check, after which it just terrorizes you. I also think Fire Blast is pretty underrated and deadly on Nidoqueen since its great against things that could otherwise somewhat check it (Bellossom, Piloswine, etc), though Ice Beam's freeze chance is also quite useful since Nidoqueen gets a ton of chances each game to just throw out attacks and see what sticks. It does have more things that can try to check it besides Slowbro/King and Granbull (Blastoise is faster and can bulk attacks, Quagsire is decent vs it, Hypno does pretty ok, Bellossom and Piloswine can take it on if it lacks Fire Blast) which is why I'm not 100% certain, but the metagame pretty much revolves around Nidoqueen + Spikes and it's hard to justify not using it on any given team.

Is this a phenomenon which occurs in almost every lower tier - one or two Pokemon completely dominate the metagame?

 

[Bughouse]

Yeah 1 or 2 pokemon defining a tier is more of an old gens thing than a low tier thing

 

[Earthworm]

I rewrote the Nidoqueen/Ampharos section of the OP to coincide with the current meta trends.

For comparison's sake, in my opinion GSC NU does not have any 9.5 or 10/10 Pokemon. It is possible that Nidoqueen deserves to be a 10 in this tier, it is not that far off Snorlax level dominance. I think it is slightly held back by a lack of options against various Cursers though, especially when using the Moonlight set. I'm going to be trying to build teams that aim not to give Nidoqueen opportunities and see how well they work. I agree with Fireburn about there being more than just those 2-3 counters, though.

 

[fatty]

haven't even played my r1 match of derdomme yet, but some preemptive battles allowed me to notice a fair amount of things.

first off, i totally agree that nidoqueen is broken. i don't know how this could be addressed as not only is this gen old af but it's a lower tier of such gen, thus rendering it stagnant af other than derdomme. it completely morphs every game around beating it / finding ways around it, and with ampharos / electrics being so strong it only makes running her that much more important. akin to what lavos said, i don't see any reason to not run nidoqueen on a team.

apart from queen, lavos also hit the nail on the head when it comes to granbull. resttalk bull is probably one of the only reasons to run haunter, and yet it is a completely valid reason lol. that shit runs through a lot of stuff with a curse up and its bulk is good enough to let it tank most of everything it needs to tank. it being a good nido check just puts the cherry on top.

psychics are very good. be it kadabra, mr. mime, or i guess hypno, the reliance of the meta on poisons such as nido, qwilfish, and even crobat (to combat scyther) makes running them very beneficial (especially in the lead spot). not to mention, there really isn't that much that likes tanking psychics coming off of those high spa stats, magneton, other psychics, and chansey being the only things i can think of.

as for strategies, para spam teams seem to be incredibly good. there's a lot of good twave / stun spore users, and an equal amount of slower, powerful abusers such as sd pinsir, bd users like quag or polis, and other random sd users. this type of boosting offense definitely improves the viability of jumpluff, though, as it basically shuts that shit down unless you make a bunch of good plays.

 

[Jorgen]

I always knew Nidoqueen was good but idk I never really had enough of a problem with it to want to ban it and idk why. Maybe it's because I'm so used to Lax in OU lol. That or the fact that Kingdra was legal in PO UU for a brief period and THAT was most certainly broken (and, coincidentally, shut Nido down cold)

 

[Funbot28]

Yup Nidoqueen is definitely unhealthy for the tier as I find Lovely Kiss allows it to stop its would be checks/counters and allows it to punish switching accordingly with her immaculate coverage and power. However, I do feel that Ampharos might evovle into an issue with Queen banned as it loses its biggest check from an already small pool of options to deal with it. This is all theory on however so take it as you will.

 

[Xeze]

I don't feel Nidoqueen is ban worthy. She is the best yeah, but not OU-Snorlax level good. I've always dealt well with Nidoqueens, even using teams without her. On paper is different than in practice.

 

[sugarhigh]

i've been playing this tier quite a bit over the past week and though i think nidoqueen is really good, i do not think it is banworthy. The plethora of swords dance users easily presssure it. Ampharos is also a little over emphasized since many grass types will be able to wall it pretty easily since it generally will opt for hidden power grass. Another thing that I found quite fun to do in the tier is run a bunch of swords dancers with rest and a chansey with healbell to keep the spam to continue. Chansey is p cool since it kinda checks nidoqueen and definitely checks ampharos. One pokemon i found quite fun to use in conjuction with chansey was:

Pinsir @ Leftovers
Ability: Hyper Cutter
IVs: 24 Atk
- Swords Dance
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Submission
- Double-Edge / Body Slam
- Rest

I generally like double edge because the raw power it gives for matches it quite great for example it secures the 2 hit on gyarados after a +2 that body slam fails to do. Submission vs hidden power ground is honestly depends on the team structure and what pokemon the team wants to hit harder against. Other cool mons include swords dance bellossom, curse weezing, and swords dance kabutops.

 

[M Dragon]

You are all heavily overrating Nidoqueen

 

[Mr.E]

Nidoqueen could be utter trash and I'd still want it banned solely on the grounds that it's basically a top ~10 OU mon reskinned, when the entire point of UU is to play without the stuff we commonly see in standard play. But it's still hard to overrate what is probably the best mon in UU, whether or not it's "broken."

 

[Lavos]

Mr. Mime and Kadabra are both pretty good, turns out. They can effectively scare Nidoqueen, Kadabra has instant recovery, and Encore fucks anything running RestTalk or setup. Also nothing likes taking a Psychic except other Psychics and Magneton.

Nidoqueen's still too good and one sentence from M Dragon won't change my mind about that lol.

Also agreeing with Mr.E on the reskin point.