Lower Tiers GSC UU

[Honko]

Is there any reason not to change Smogon's UU list to match the tier that people are actually playing?

 

[The Immortal]

GSC UU is the new RoA Spotlight and is a playable ladder on Pokemon Showdown!

 

[Jorgen]

Is there any reason not to change Smogon's UU list to match the tier that people are actually playing?

As far as I can tell, this literally only entails moving amphy back down to UU from bl. The other changes that needed to happen from the last time I checked the GSC tiers (smeargle venusaur electabuzz) seem to already have been made.

 

[Xeze]

It already happened. The GSC UU tier list on the website was changed. Ampharos moved from BL to UU, Venusaur and Smeargle moved from UU to BL. No more differences now.

 

[Typhlito]

I'd love to run a few tours for this on showdown but to do so, I would need some sample teams. So can somebody post a few when they get the chance?

 

[Earthworm]

Dual screens SD pass Scyther

Qwilfish @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Spikes
- Curse
- Sludge Bomb
- Hydro Pump

Scyther @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
Happiness: 0
IVs: 24 Atk
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Frustration
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Ampharos @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
- Thunder
- Light Screen
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

Dodrio @ Leftovers
Ability: Run Away
IVs: 24 Atk
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Blastoise @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
- Reflect
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Exploders

Pineco @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
IVs: 26 Atk / 26 Def
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rapid Spin

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Earthquake
- Moonlight
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
IVs: 24 Atk
- Curse
- Explosion
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Haunter
Ability: Levitate
- Thunderbolt
- Thief
- Psychic
- Explosion

Dodrio @ Polkadot Bow
Ability: Run Away
IVs: 24 Atk
- Return
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Endure
- Flail

Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
IVs: 28 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Growth
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Kadabra Lead Offense

Kadabra @ Miracle Berry
Ability: Synchronize
- Psychic
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Thief

Scyther @ Leftovers
Ability: Swarm
IVs: 26 Atk / 26 Def
- Swords Dance
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Wing Attack
- Baton Pass

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Earthquake
- Lovely Kiss
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Electabuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
IVs: 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Cross Chop
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Ice Punch

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
- Curse
- Frustration
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Qwilfish @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Point
- Spikes
- Curse
- Sludge Bomb
- Hydro Pump

jira post with teams: here

 

[Wind2008]

Mr. Mime and Kadabra are both pretty good, turns out. They can effectively scare Nidoqueen, Kadabra has instant recovery, and Encore fucks anything running RestTalk or setup. Also nothing likes taking a Psychic except other Psychics and Magneton.

Nidoqueen's still too good and one sentence from M Dragon won't change my mind about that lol.

Also agreeing with Mr.E on the reskin point.

Yes, Mr. Mime is really great just on the back of having Encore. I think Kadabra is on a tier below Mime and Hypno though. He can be really scary behind a substitute, but he just doesn't take hits like Mime and Hypno do.

Nidoqueen is really, really good. Not sure the tier would be better off without her, but she absolutely deserves her #1 spot. She doesn't break down teams on her own immediately, but she has the unique stats and move pool to really threaten entire teams every time she comes in. There are very few safe Nidoqueen switches.

I've been laddering as Windykins this week. Love the tier. Glad we have a chance to play it.

 

[gaudetjaja]

I think the tier is dominated by a few pokemon that are uncharacteristically strong for it; Nidoqueen, Slowbro. Both also see frequent OU usage (nidoqueen is, as others said here, nidoking with boobs, and slowbro is a perfectly fine bulky water even in OU).

Of course nido keeps stuff like Ampharos in check, so the question is whether the meta would be better off without nidoqueen. But I think the most important thing is to counter nidoqueen and slowbro and they are just very very centralizing.

 

[gaudetjaja]

And of course slowbro's cousin slowking. Though slowking is maybe a bit worse it's also slightly less susceptible to surprise thunderbolts and hidden power grasses, yet still 2hko'd by most thunders. So I would think a slowbro ban would automatically entail a slowking ban.

I think that without nido and slowbro/king, Ampharos will rise as a threat but it won't be as centralizing as nidoqueen and slowbro/king are now. You can run quagsire (though it can hp grass) or maybe a grass poke such as vileplume or so. Things could start to run earthquake/hidden power ground. It just isn't as unkillable/menacing as slowbro/king and nidoqueen.

Together with ampharos, of course stuff like Electabuzz and magneton would need to be dealt with. Again, I don't think it'd be as centralizing.

But that's just my 2 cents.

 

[Wind2008]

After playing more games(My record is 31-5, rank #1 atm) I'm feeling like Nidoqueen is healthy for the tier. I don't think Slowbro/Slowking should stay. I'm fairly neutral on Ampharos, leaning towards saying he should stay.

Nidoqueen is very powerful, almost essential, but she helps round out the edges of the tier. She fills a certain void and keeps the huge pool of threats in the tier on their toes. She's at the top of the pile, but I think she's serving the tier well, because without her a lot of pokemon would feel a lot worse to play against.

Slowbro(and I assume as an extension slowking) are not healthy for the tier though IMO. They're too good at their role unlike Nidoqueen who is simply the only Pokemon who really fills that place in the meta. People are playing other bulky waters, the tier isn't full of slowbros, but I think they're clearly a step above other water types and they greatly limit team building.

Without them there would be a lot more room for the many other really good water types, and for a lot more team variety in general. STAB Surf/Psychic is just way too much. They hit everything, and neutral hits off of such a high SpA tend to 2-3hko the entire tier, meaning it isn't safe for anything that can actually kill Slowbro/Slowking to switch in. Slowbro is an OU pokemon that happens to be in UU because of role overlap.

Slowbro/king also make running what should be the best grass types in the tier a lot more dangerous because they're /poison.

Ampharos is really strong(that Thunder is devastating), but I doubt it needs a ban. Especially if Nidoqueen stays. I think if Nidoqueen goes that's a whole new issue. Right now I feel pretty confident that Vileplume, Lanturn, Quagsire, and Nidoqueen are reliable Ampharos checks - and they're all on my team. I'm sure there are more reliable options to fortify a team against Ampharos. Because Pokemon who can handle a SE hidden power and Thunder are so common I think Ampharos would make a fine top tier UU pokemon. Unlike Slowbro it doesn't have two very strong STAB options that aren't resisted by any single pokemon worth using.

 

[Enigami]

I haven't played as much as Wind, but I agree with the sentiment that Nidoqueen while very strong isn't OP. Waters and Psychics hit her hard with STAB attacks, Grasses can cripple her with Sleep Powder/Stun Spore, Pinsir beats non-Fire Blast Queen, fresh Grounds (unless Quagsire vs. HP Grass Nidoqueen) have at least an even chance of beating her or better (Piloswine is about 50/50 vs. Fire Blast Nidoqueen, Gligar is about 2/3 in its favor against Ice Beam Nidoqueen, Sandslash is 9/10, Dugtrio always wins, Graveler if you feel like using it almost always OHKOs with Explosion, and then there's always Queen dittos), Magmar/Electabuzz can keep Nido at bay with Psychic, Chansey (watch out for LK) and Resttalk Granbull can wall her unless she crits, Bellossom takes Ice Beam well and can stall out Fire Blast, and there's probably quite a bit more that I missed. A huge threat to be sure, but it seems to me there are a lot of ways to handle her.

Ampharos also probably doesn't need looking at if Nidoqueen isn't banned.

Slowbro though... on paper atleast it's looking pretty OP. It's just so bulky. It also says something when most of the non-Electric Pokemon that hit Slowbro with SE STAB are don't want to take a hit from Slowbro themselves. Victreebel and Vileplume get wrecked by Psychic, Sneasel takes too much from Surf without doing enough back and Houndour despite being able to inflict decent damage gets one-shot by Surf. Some of its other would-be checks and counters such as Electabuzz, Mr. Mime and Raichu are crippled pretty badly by paralysis and usually don't have more than Leftovers recovery, which means Slowbro can still wear them down and get past them anyway. On top of that there's also the fact that its Psychic STAB also has that 30% chance of reducing SpD. There's still some major obstacles for Bro like Lanturn, Ampharos and Chansey, and I haven't examined Bro fully yet, but it seems to me there's less options for dealing with Bro compared to Nidoqueen.

Moving on to some other thoughts, I think Psychic should be considered over Ice Punch alongside STAB+Fighting coverage on Electabuzz. Electric/Fighting/Psychic has effectively perfect neutral coverage in UU (yes, there's Exeggcute, but nobody would use it especially since Buzz can still run elemental punches), and Psychic has the benefit of 30% chance of SpD falls, as well as being notably stronger against Nidoqueen (99.6% 3HKO instead of 4HKO), in addition to Vileplume (100% 3HKO instead of 0.2%) and Victreebel (28.3% 2HKO instead of 3HKO).

Turns to KO Nidoqueen with Ice Punch -- 4HKO after Leftovers (50.7% 3HKO after Spikes damage)
Turns to KO Nidoqueen with Psychic without SpD fall -- 99.6% 3HKO after Leftovers
Turns to KO -1 SpD Nidoqueen with Psychic -- Guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
Maximum damage against Electabuzz from Nidoqueen's Earthquake: 94.2%

The reliable 3HKO from Psychic makes it harder for Nidoqueen to switch in even with Moonlight, and the threat of SpD falls makes things even worse. Additionally, accumulated SpD falls can even help it break through Ampharos RBY style. In my opinion keeping a fresh Nidoqueen from switching in is more valuable than smacking Jumpluff and other Grounds (Bellossom not listed, because Ice Punch is still a 4HKO and Bellossom has instant recovery), though Ice Punch is still a great option in the 4th slot if its teammates handle Quagsire.

Pursuit Electabuzz is also something that should be considered on teams with mono-Normal attackers. You can't use Cross Chop with it so you're pretty much reliant on Dynamic Punch for fighting coverage (Submission can't 2HKO Chansey, so that's out), but Pursuit takes over half of Haunter's HP if it switches out, and Psychic/Thunder/Thunderbolt also threaten 2HKOs which puts Haunter in a very bad spot. Pursuit is also handy for general pursuit trapping to ensure weakened targets are finished off, and also takes out 1/3 of Slowbro's HP as it runs from Buzz's STAB.


I also played with a couple niche garbagemons for fun and worked out the best sets I could manage for them.

Houndour @ Black Glasses / Miracle Berry
-Fire Blast
-Crunch
-Pursuit
-Hidden Power [Grass] / Beat Up

It isn't quite as bad as Earthworm/Jorgen put it (though still pretty bad), and even put in more work than I expected out of it in a match without opposing Psychics. Fire/Dark is a STAB combo only resisted by Poliwrath and other Houndour, and 80 SpA is enough to give those moves some bite. The reason to actually consider using it is its strong Crunch/Pursuit to pursuit-trap Haunter for mono-Normal attackers while also utilizing its Psychic-immunity for heavily pressuring Psychics (minus Slowbro/king). For its 4th move, it's either HP Grass for Quagsire/Kabutops/Omastar/Graveler (also it does slightly more to Poliwrath than either STAB), or Beat Up to wreck Chansey if your team is still healthy. Leftovers I think aren't worth it since for the most part it doesn't improve its Haunter/Psychic matchups and Houndour is too frail for 1/16th HP recovery to help, so it should either run Black Glasses for maximum Crunch/Pursuit damage or Miracle Berry to avoid status. I had a bigger write-up that was a bit more praising due to Haunter being a huge block to mono-Normal attackers, but then I realized Electabuzz had just enough SpA to 2HKO Haunter itself with Pursuit while being a much better Pokemon in general. Still, surely it has more use than Pokemon that are outclassed in practically every way (i.e. Fearow).

Graveler @ Leftovers
-Earthquake
-Hidden Power [Rock]
-Explosion
-Rapid Spin

There was one thing Earthworm and Jorgen missed when comparing it with Sudowoodo in the viability sheet: Rapid Spin. So that brings it to 3 things it has that Sudowoodo lacks: STAB Earthquake, Explosion, and Rapid Spin. It also is a bit more effective against Slowbro. If Slowbro switches into Earthquake Explosion will KO, while Sudowoodo needs to use Curse > Explosion at near full HP to successfully lure and KO it (also Sudowoodo speed ties while Graveler outspeeds). Rapid Spin is an event move, so Graveler can't get Rock Slide from Gen 1 or breeding with Sudowoodo, which means it needs to run HP Rock to get Rock STAB. You could also drop a move for HP Grass if you really wanted to lure Quagsire without Exploding for some reason (55.3% chance of 2HKO after spikes), or use Fire Blast to hit Bellossom a little harder, but otherwise this set here is the best Graveler can do. I wasn't impressed though when I used it and feel that Kabutops is a much better choice for a Normal-resisting spinner and both Kabutops and Sudowoodo for an offensive Normal-resist, but if say you wanted Rapid Spin support that could also lure and boom on Slowbro, Graveler might be your mon.

 

[Fireburn]

Can't help but feel like you guys are heavily overrating Slowbro. It's strong on paper but it has several very good answers (Ampharos, Bellossom, Lanturn, Chansey, Hypno, RestTalk Growth Toed), can be hindered or broken by several common wallbreakers (Thief Magmar, SD Pinsir, SD Scyther, DrumQuag, Politoed, Haunter, Curse/Thunder Weezing, Curse Sudo), and its poor Speed can hinder it against things like Nidoqueen and SD Sandslash, moreso than like, say, Blastoise. There are quite a few ways to deal with Slowbro and most good offenses I've seen can easily fit multiple ways of addressing it.

Slowbro far from invalidates other Water-types. There are plenty of others in the tier and each has something unique to offer: Qwilfish has Spikes, Blastoise is faster than Nidoqueen and Spins, Politoed is a dangerous setup mon, Kabutops is a reasonably fast SD user with a valuable Normal resist, Quagsire is a solid Ground check and can threaten Curse/Drum, Gyarados is a threatening mixed attacker with good Speed, Omastar is an excellent counter to Normals and can Haze. Slowbro's main niches are Thunder Wave, good offensive presence, and high Defense to act as a buffer against Dodrio. It's a great mon but there are plenty of reasons to justify passing on it in favor of its fellow Waters.

Also Enigami Psychic only has a 10% chance to drop SpD in Gen 2. It was only 30% in RBY.

 

[Enigami]

Oh. Guess I'm too used to RBY, somehow I never noticed the chance reduction. A bit less good than I thought then, but still hurts Nidoqueen pretty badly.

Also, now that I see a more complete list of stuff to deal with Slowbro, yeah I'm leaning much more towards it being manageable.

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Can't help but feel like you guys are heavily overrating Slowbro. It's strong on paper but it has several very good answers (Ampharos, Bellossom, Lanturn, Chansey, Hypno, RestTalk Growth Toed), can be hindered or broken by several common wallbreakers (Thief Magmar, SD Pinsir, SD Scyther, DrumQuag, Politoed, Haunter, Curse/Thunder Weezing, Curse Sudo), and its poor Speed can hinder it against things like Nidoqueen and SD Sandslash, moreso than like, say, Blastoise. There are quite a few ways to deal with Slowbro and most good offenses I've seen can easily fit multiple ways of addressing it.

Slowbro far from invalidates other Water-types. There are plenty of others in the tier and each has something unique to offer: Qwilfish has Spikes, Blastoise is faster than Nidoqueen and Spins, Politoed is a dangerous setup mon, Kabutops is a reasonably fast SD user with a valuable Normal resist, Quagsire is a solid Ground check and can threaten Curse/Drum, Gyarados is a threatening mixed attacker with good Speed, Omastar is an excellent counter to Normals and can Haze. Slowbro's main niches are Thunder Wave, good offensive presence, and high Defense to act as a buffer against Dodrio. It's a great mon but there are plenty of reasons to justify passing on it in favor of its fellow Waters.

Also Enigami Psychic only has a 10% chance to drop SpD in Gen 2. It was only 30% in RBY.

I can't help but feel like you're heavily underrating slowbro, because most of these don't even deal with it a reasonable amount. Chansey can't do anything back, and will get pp stalled. Hypno can't do anything back, and will get pp stalled. Bellossom doesn't like taking a psychic, and is definitive setup bait for everything after a para, thief magmar/pinsir/scyther/haunter/curse sudo and curse+thunder weezing (huh why thunder) all cannot only not switch into bro, either because of an attack or thunder wave, hampering them for the rest of the game (since you won't (commonly) use a beller with those mons). These are just the mons that bro doesn't outright wall, lol. Yes these are offensive assets you can use the break bro, but they don't do anything about the mon itself, eg you need a free turn, thus bro needs to be forced out. I left out growtoad (heh) and lanturn because these are genuinely good bro answers. I don't see how ampharos is a good repellant though (except on very offensive teams I guess, but honestly ampharos is the single most overrated mon imo, it's like really comparable to ebuzz, and actually ebuzz might be slightly better, yes it's weaker and frailer, but faster and has psychic(/ice punch I guess but it's weaker) which is HUGE, and ampharos doesn't, see next sentence) since nido just switches in on it while ampharos does jack shit to threaten you. Oh and also you'll get worn down by attacks, or get parad, and you kinda don't wanna rest because then your amphy is asleep .__. and it loses important coverage, but it wouldn't work anyway because nido can just recover with moonlight, I'm assuming you're generally going to be using that since your team won't be super offensive since you're using slowbro, and this way you deal with a significant part of bro checks rather well, and guess what then you've given nido a free switch .__. What exactly are you gonna switch in on eq/flamethrower/tbolt? Uuhhhh, Hypno? Guess what, that gets pp stalled by slowbro! Oh and imo ice beam should not be considered, because flamethrower hits not only pinsir but also very importantly piloswine, both of which become much bigger problems otherwise, and what does ice beam hit anyway (gligar was the only mon I could think of).

Yeah that's right, there's exactly 2 slowbro answers in the entire tier! I suppose you could argue curse granbull is also a somewhat decent answer though (then again, only really against sleeping slowbro, and even then you can't get unlucky). Guess this brings up a flaw in my arguing though; bro can't run 5 moves, so you can't have 2atks twave without being much more vulnerable, and without twave you lose an important threat, though you it's not at all impossible to forgo psychic probably. But still, you always need to heavily consider how to beat bro with a combination of offensive pressure and a dedicated answer to it on teams that aren't just all out offence. Curse granbull is much more reliable vs mono attack though, but actually slowbro can even get around that as well as growtoad, a mon you mentioned as a full stop, with a very specific set if it wants (didn't think of this myself, had a discussion with someome who goes by king focuspunch on the ladder who used it, shut both my toad and granbull down cold). Anyway slowbro is just completely ridiculous, not in the slightest because ml nido synergizes so well with it.

Oh and nido, while not being as ban worthy as slowbro probably, is still ridiculous lol, eq/flamethrower/thunder just hits everything. Including slowbro if you manage to hit thunders.

So I guess a list of ways to (consistently) deal with bro would be this I guess (please comment on this if I forgot anything/you disagree): lanturn, growtoad, kadabra/mr mime, thunder nidoqueen (remember: slowking doesn't care), constant boom pressure, constant pressure from SE setup, constant pressure from some of the mons you mentioned (I really did like thief magmar btw), curse granbull sort of maybe sometimes. 5 and 6 of that list being restricted to mostly all-out offensive teams. And on teams that aren't all our offence, you're going to need a more reliable answer. "This Pokemon invalidates the use of a significant amount of viable Pokemon, and because it has only a very select set of mandatory countermeasures it greatly restricts teambuilding, otherwise forcing you to pp stall it do death which leads to very exciting battles" seems like a good tldr on why slowbro shouldn't be in this tier!

psa: I'm not some gsc uu god, not in the slightest, but really anyone should be able to conclude something similar. I don't see a good reason for keeping it in the tier, if people continue to play it after derdomme/it gets an official ladder, I think that whoever has the authority to suspect it/ban it should do so. Also sorry for the messy post, god I hate phone typing.

ps: oops there's more to your post. qwilfish dies to psychic, blastoise can roar it out I guess (btw I think someone said that they think roar stoise should only be used with spikes which makes sense because otherwise is just so passive, but I've never managed to fit both (not even qwilfish on it's own because slowbro/nido electrics and it just literally doesn't do anything except spikes, but of course on very offensive teams it's solid) because they both really don't achieve that much and the best stoise can do anyway is roar it out ._. I guess you can then continue to repel it with offensive pressure, but still, decent answer actually maybe but hopefully you get what I mean, it's still rather passive) and drumtoad can't switch in, and also you'd be relying quite heavily on prediction, and it's just a one time check but I guess which is not that big of a deal on very offensive teams but again, slowbro is going to be spamming twave. Toad definitely isn't invalidated though, completely true. Quag takes a huge amount of damage from from both attacks and is thus not even a good one time answer, slowbro is one of the better kabutops checks, I mean boosted ancient power hurts so you won't be checking a 100% +2 tops but there's no way kabutops can check slowbro. Lastly gyarados does no damage to slowbro and fears twave (unless you're running sub+swagger with twave support, epic idea imotbqh).

I have no idea how you could say slowbro is overrated. I quit oras ubers, and wanted to play a new, fun tier, only to be met with what feels like pdon v0.9 without setup moves and stealth rock. I tend to like centralised tiers, but slowbro is just flat out ridiculous. tl;dr fuck slowbro

Edit: thanks to Earthworm for pointing out that I misinterpreted the second half of your post, I guess I was trying to say that slowbro doesn't invalidate all water types, but still manages to often beat them, or at least do well versus them, which makes them harder to use because of how good slowbro is. Oh and actually gyarados 3hkos slowbro with thunder (or rather, has a 0,7^3=34,3% to do so) but slowbro can twave, and psychic always breaks a potential sub. Idek why the standard set has zap cannon, it seems pretty bad.

 

[Khaytra]

Can we figure out what criteria we'd need in order to vote on a ban...?

Because we did this last Rotational Ladder with Moltres, but then everyone just sort of gave up on arguing about it, and nothing happened. (July 8th was the last time someone brought up their opinions on which mons were broken and not. There was a short quip on how BL/UU was determined a few days later, and then the entire thread went cold for the rest of the month.) Moltres, Dragonite, and Articuno were all debated, but then nothing happened either way and they remained de facto UU.

Anyway, my opinions on the debated mons:

Nidoqueen: She's definitely top-tier material, but, from the way people were talking about her at first, I expected her to... Do more. She's definitely manageable; I have her on like every team, but I feel she's more like ORAS Lando-T (great at what they do, great glue, but tame) than an actual pressing issue. No ban.

Ampharos: Not a problem as long as Nidoqueen is in the tier. Thunder stings if it hits a non-resist, but it's easy enough to keep it in check. No ban.

Slowbro/King: I've been playing with Slowking on the ladder, just a simple dual STAB Rest Talk set. I went with Slowking because I wanted the special bulk against Thunder Nidoqueen. I haven't tried Thunder Wave or anything different because dual STAB has been serving me well enough. I got in a match with... Earthworm? I think? Where I tried (and ultimately failed but I think that was more my playing over the whole match) to force my way through their Slowbro by going for Special drops à la RBY. The idea of dropping Psychic suggested upthread is interesting, but I like being able to go for the drops with Psychic and also it keeps stuff like Vileplume from straight walling you. I've had issues breaking down opposing Slowbros (I think I've only run into two other Slowking?), but I honestly think it's due to my playing rather than being unable to break them. They're dangerous, and they're probably top tier, but I'm not sure I'd vote for them being broken. Cautiously no ban, but I'm not committed to that.

(I'm not that great though, so take my opinions lightly. I do hope we figure out a method to ban though.)

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah Slowbro isn't busted. I can forgive some people new to the tier for thinking she is though. The thing is, while she was pretty untouchable in the early stages of GSC UU (surf + psychic + twave made it seem like the only safe answer was your own Bro), people pretty quickly figured out how to metagame around her (see Fireburn's post) and her limitations were exposed.

Slowbro in GSC UU is a pretty good case study for why discussions of bans should probably not be happening immediately after people start playing a tier lol

 

[Wind2008]

Fireburn, the problem with your argument for Slowbro/King are that you're underestimating how weak attackers are in this tier, and I think you're also underestimating how well Slowbro/king brawl against other tanks you would think might be advantaged. I'm afraid to switch my Lanturn in on Slowbro.

Slowbro/king's problems compared to other waters are twofold: It both does too much damage against the few Pokemon you might want to switch into it, and it's just a little too tanky. None of the Pokemon you mentioned really want to switch in on both surf and psychic. Slowbro/Slowking demand multiple answers on a team in a way unlike any other Pokemon in the tier, and even scarier than that, you can basically run two of the same Pokemon if you choose to. A few people I've faced on the ladder are finding success with using both.

Blastoise, Lanturn, Quagsire, etc. are also excellent Pokemon, but they all have weaknesses Slowbro/King don't. Blastoise doesn't have nearly the same offensive presence or STAB psychic, Lanturn's weakness to ground makes it far easier for enemies to deal with, Quagsire is good but really fulfills a much different role so it's hard to compare them.

Slowbro/Slowking just do too much. And I can't stress this enough - it's among the strongest Pokemon in the tier if not the strongest, and you can use TWO.

Jorgen - It's possible to work around Slowbro/Slowking, but it doesn't feel good. They feel unfair, the tier lacks any real answers. Half of a decent team has to check them. Nidoqueen at least has a long list of checks and including ways to deal with her doesn't limit teams very much. Slowbro is able to safely 3hko most of the tier while spreading paralysis and being very difficult to take down. His best checks are still scared of him when he's awake.

 

[Fireburn]

Let's go over the list of stuff that can beat Slowbro and how:

Good Counters:

• Lanturn - Not 3HKOed by anything, has STAB Electric attacks
• Bellossom - Not 3HKOed by anything, has Leech Seed/Razor Leaf/SD
• Politoed - Not 3HKOed by Psychic, can set up with Growth and RestTalk or just smack with HP Electric
• Ampharos - Not 3HKOed by anything, Thunder wrecks it.
• Chansey - Can set up Light Screen to make it easier for teammates to switch-in or use Curse (actually kinda legit since Lucky Punch gives you a 25% crit rate) to set up on it, Heal Bell
• Hypno - Can set up Light Screen to help teammates deal with it or smack it a bit with TPunch/Zap Cannon, can't do much else but Slowbro can't do much to it either so it can PP stall
• Slowbro/Slowking - If you have nothing else, Slowbro walls itself and can PP stall.

Good Checks:

• Mr. Mime - Strong Thunderbolt, not 3HKOed by Surf, soft counter if its RestTalk
• Wigglytuff - Isn't 3HKOed by Surf and can Curse up or just use Thunderbolt. Not as good as Politoed but serviceable (Surf 4HKO vs Psychic 5HKO).
  
• Electabuzz - STAB Electric attacks, can stomach a few hits, Pursuit if you're into that
• Magneton - Surf does 3HKO but it resists Psychic, is faster, and packs very strong STAB Electric attacks.
  
• Raichu - A poor man's Electabuzz, but it isn't that much worse (Surf is nice) and it counts
  
• Jumpluff - Doesn't like TWave, but is only 4HKOed by Psychic and can use Leech Seed/Encore to force it out.
• Vileplume - Situational, but if Slowbro lacks Psychic for whatever reason it can use it as setup bait.

Wallbreakers - Can't switch in necessarily, but can weaken/kill it. Offense teams will usually have multiples of these. You can think of these as metagame adaptations:

• Qwilfish/Pineco - Can't hurt Slowbro itself but SPIKES! makes it a lot easier to kill
  
• Nidoqueen - Isn't OHKOed and EQ + Thunder does a minimum of 64% damage, with Spikes Slowbro will struggle
  
• Kadabra - Thief to steal Leftovers, Thunderpunch does a nice chunk
• Haunter - Thief, Thunderbolt, Explosion, Destiny Bond
• Magmar - Thief + Thunderpunch
• Weezing - Thunder or CurseBoom, also works indirectly since it often lures in and Explodes on Nidoqueen, freeing up the Electric
• Granbull - Isn't 2HKOed and +1 Return does a lot of damage
• Pinsir - SD Bug, Slowbro doesn't stand a chance
• Scyther - See Pinsir
  
• Sudowoodo - Curse + Selfdestruct OHKOes, Sudo lives Surf at full HP and has a good chance to take it after Spikes
  
• Quagsire - Belly Drum, is faster (yes really)
• Sandslash - +2 Earthquake 2HKOes and Sandslash survives Surf at full HP, if you lack STalk or it doesnt roll Surf Slowbro will lose to Sandslash

...this is quite an extensive list for a supposedly overcentralizing, broken Pokemon. You have 5-7 hard counters, a handful of solid checks, and a large number of wallbreakers capable of dealing with it. Don't pretend like the tier doesn't have answers to Slowbro because it has quite a few, more than you think it does. I'm not saying Slowbro is bad - it's certainly a great mon in the tier - but there are plenty of ways to deal with it and it is simply not as good on paper as it is in practice. Many recent Derdomme Cup sets haven't featured a single Slowbro - I feel like it would be more dominating if it truly were that hard to deal with.

Also Wind2008... Lanturn is 5HKOed by Psychic. 5HKOed. And it's faster and has STAB Electric attacks. You should never ever be afraid to switch it in on Slowbro. That's pretty much as hard of a counter as they come.

 

[Lavos]

Wait, who's having trouble with Slowbro? Yeah a lot of stuff is never getting past it, but it also can't meaningfully affect a lot of stuff. I stopped using it because it lets too many good pokemon switch in for free. Fireburn's post explains it way better, I'm just lazy.

The more ladder I play, the better Scyther seems. It's surprisingly tanky and +2 HP Ground destroys a fair portion of its checks. Rock moves are obviously a problem but you can usually pass to something like Vileplume and take souls with Sludge Bomb.

Dodrio is also looking better these days, a good strategy is to Endure on a faster Pokemon that would kill and then switch out and save it for later. It outspeeds most of the tier so you can get it in on double switches and KOs to spam Flail.

I think Qwilfish is overrated, it's quite frail and Water/Poison is shit typing considering the most common attack types in this tier (Psychic/Ground/Electric to name a few). Spikes rarely seem as impactful in UU as they are in OU, given that many more pokemon have one-turn recovery and a solid two-thirds of the tier run some sort of healing move.

Nidoqueen still fucking rules but not as much as I had initially thought. I think the LK set may actually be superior. Most teams pack one comfortable Nido switch-in. Sleeping it can make a huge difference, and since Nido resists so many attacks, she doesn't miss Moonlight if you play fast and loose.

original point: I think GSC UU matches, on average, are far more likely to be decided by luck than their OU counterparts. There are a couple reasons that I came to this conclusion. First, my anecdotal evidence from experience on the ladder and in derdomme cup support this view. Second, pokemon are generally less tanky in UU, thus a timely crit or para means a lot more than it would in OU. There are many defensive pokemon that are used to check big threats because they are barely not 3HKOd and thus abuse RestTalk to permawall the threat in question. However a single crit means it's game over especially if what got crit was your Scyther or Nidoqueen check. This is exacerbated in the instance of Nido because she runs Ice Beam - I have already had many games decided by a freeze. It feels like when two balanced teams go up against each other, whoever can crit or para or freeze their way through the opponent's wall is going to win. Third, as an extension on my second point, there are fewer checks to individual pokemon than in OU. For example Curse Granbull can singlehandedly 6-0 teams that lack a Normal immunity or a phazer, of which there are a surprising number. Once the Ground-type is out of the way, Ampharos sweeps. Once the Rock or Electric is dead, Scyther sweeps. Once the faster Pokemon are dead, Dodrio sweeps...etc. This is partially due to being used to Snorlax as a secondary check on almost everything. In UU there's no fall-back, if your check dies you lose. Fourth, there are fewer comeback mechanics in UU. Not as many good phazers, very few viable Exploders that can do things other than just Explode. Fifth, since we are playing with knockoff versions of OU pokemon, they are necessarily more prone to events of chance - that's part of why they are knockoffs. Ampharos is a worse Raikou, Nidoqueen is a worse Nidoking, Politoed is (usually) a worse Vaporeon, Vileplume is a worse Exeggutor, Haunter is a worse Gengar, Chansey is a worse Blissey, Qwilfish is a worse Cloyster. The list goes on.

Fun tier though.

 

[Laveley]

Let's go over the list of stuff that can beat Slowbro and how:

Good Counters:

• Lanturn - Not 3HKOed by anything, has STAB Electric attacks
• Bellossom - Not 3HKOed by anything, has Leech Seed/Razor Leaf/SD
• Politoed - Not 3HKOed by Psychic, can set up with Growth and RestTalk or just smack with HP Electric
• Ampharos - Not 3HKOed by anything, Thunder wrecks it.
• Chansey - Can set up Light Screen to make it easier for teammates to switch-in or use Curse (actually kinda legit since Lucky Punch gives you a 25% crit rate) to set up on it, Heal Bell
• Hypno - Can set up Light Screen to help teammates deal with it or smack it a bit with TPunch/Zap Cannon, can't do much else but Slowbro can't do much to it either so it can PP stall
• Slowbro/Slowking - If you have nothing else, Slowbro walls itself and can PP stall.

Good Checks:

• Mr. Mime - Strong Thunderbolt, not 3HKOed by Surf, soft counter if its RestTalk
• Wigglytuff - Isn't 3HKOed by Surf and can Curse up or just use Thunderbolt. Not as good as Politoed but serviceable (Surf 4HKO vs Psychic 5HKO).
  
• Electabuzz - STAB Electric attacks, can stomach a few hits, Pursuit if you're into that
• Magneton - Surf does 3HKO but it resists Psychic, is faster, and packs very strong STAB Electric attacks.
  
• Raichu - A poor man's Electabuzz, but it isn't that much worse (Surf is nice) and it counts
  
• Jumpluff - Doesn't like TWave, but is only 4HKOed by Psychic and can use Leech Seed/Encore to force it out.
• Vileplume - Situational, but if Slowbro lacks Psychic for whatever reason it can use it as setup bait.

Wallbreakers - Can't switch in necessarily, but can weaken/kill it. Offense teams will usually have multiples of these. You can think of these as metagame adaptations:

• Qwilfish/Pineco - Can't hurt Slowbro itself but SPIKES! makes it a lot easier to kill
  
• Nidoqueen - Isn't OHKOed and EQ + Thunder does a minimum of 64% damage, with Spikes Slowbro will struggle
  
• Kadabra - Thief to steal Leftovers, Thunderpunch does a nice chunk
• Haunter - Thief, Thunderbolt, Explosion, Destiny Bond
• Magmar - Thief + Thunderpunch
• Weezing - Thunder or CurseBoom, also works indirectly since it often lures in and Explodes on Nidoqueen, freeing up the Electric
• Granbull - Isn't 2HKOed and +1 Return does a lot of damage
• Pinsir - SD Bug, Slowbro doesn't stand a chance
• Scyther - See Pinsir
  
• Sudowoodo - Curse + Selfdestruct OHKOes, Sudo lives Surf at full HP and has a good chance to take it after Spikes
  
• Quagsire - Belly Drum, is faster (yes really)
• Sandslash - +2 Earthquake 2HKOes and Sandslash survives Surf at full HP, if you lack STalk or it doesnt roll Surf Slowbro will lose to Sandslash

...this is quite an extensive list for a supposedly overcentralizing, broken Pokemon. You have 5-7 hard counters, a handful of solid checks, and a large number of wallbreakers capable of dealing with it. Don't pretend like the tier doesn't have answers to Slowbro because it has quite a few, more than you think it does. I'm not saying Slowbro is bad - it's certainly a great mon in the tier - but there are plenty of ways to deal with it and it is simply not as good on paper as it is in practice. Many recent Derdomme Cup sets haven't featured a single Slowbro - I feel like it would be more dominating if it truly were that hard to deal with.

Also Wind2008... Lanturn is 5HKOed by Psychic. 5HKOed. And it's faster and has STAB Electric attacks. You should never ever be afraid to switch it in on Slowbro. That's pretty much as hard of a counter as they come.

You wrong pippen.

The only real counters in this list are lanturn and mr.mime with thunder (who is a f*$king BAUSS btw, whats this guy is doing in the NU tier is beyond my comprehension). Bellossom can counter him if it has razor leaf, but its quite an easy poke to a sweeper set up (same with chansey). . Hypno is garbage, if you are using this guy instead of mr. mime you are doing something wrong. I dont consider exploders counters either because they are, well, exploders.

All the other electrics are shut down by nido.... you even said so in your first post in this thread. The only exception to this is raichu, but he is predictable af because no one will use him over electaboobs if not for that juicy surf. And even lanturn has difficulties with that nido earthquake so a lanturn has to predict right the switch or he will be doomed (he is slower than nido).

That is the main reason why the bro's are strong in this tier btw, their synergy with nido is almost perfect, they cover pretty much all the (used) nidos weakness (ground, water and psych) wile nido covers pretty much all their (used) weakness (electric, bug and grass with ice beam).... i'm surprised no one mentioned this here yet (if someone did, i missed it).

I've been using a double bro team in the ladder and was able to reach 1200 score easily and i'm not even good. In fact, i feel if i was better i could be going places with that team.

That being said, i dont think the bros need a ban... maybe just one of them, so you cant use both . There is a cool variety of strats in this tier and the bros are part of it.

 

[Enigami]

All the other electrics are shut down by nido.... you even said so in your first post in this thread. The only exception to this is raichu, but he is predictable af because no one will use him over electaboobs if not for that juicy surf.

???

Electabuzz Psychic vs. Nidoqueen: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raichu Surf vs. Nidoqueen: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Buzz exists too, and is better than Raichu at the very least because Buzz has a more reliable attack to hit Chansey (Cross Chop instead of relying on Dynamic Punch), it outspeeds base 100s (kinda important with Dodrio around) and speed ties Scyther, a random Special fall screws over Nidoqueen, and it also gets Pursuit (EDIT: Also, Elemental punches). And Electrode has (I think) somewhere about a 25% chance of taking Queen with it using HP Ice + Explosion (should be guaranteed after Spikes damage), so it has a chance of doing something to Nidoqueen.

 

[Laveley]

???

Electabuzz Psychic vs. Nidoqueen: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Raichu Surf vs. Nidoqueen: 142-168 (37 - 43.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Buzz exists too, and is better than Raichu at the very least because Buzz has a more reliable attack to hit Chansey (Cross Chop instead of relying on Dynamic Punch), it outspeeds base 100s (kinda important with Dodrio around) and speed ties Scyther, a random Special fall screws over Nidoqueen, and it also gets Pursuit (EDIT: Also, Elemental punches). And Electrode has (I think) somewhere about a 25% chance of taking Queen with it using HP Ice + Explosion (should be guaranteed after Spikes damage), so it has a chance of doing something to Nidoqueen.

Did you even read what i wrote?

Do you really are trying to say that electrics take down nido.... REALLY?

Well, in case you are not trolling, i will repeat myself, even though i dont like it, to try to make it clear:

Your electabuzz numbers just prove he is shut down by nido... is a 2 HKO vs a 3 HKO, do the math (also, where did i stated electaboobs didnt existed? lol). "Oh but if the player predicts correctly the switch", if a player predicts correctly every switch than he can win no matter what, thats not the point. Also, nido has LK and/or moonlight for you to take into account, nido can put electaboobs to sleep or just tank with moonlight and than earthquake it to oblivion.

About raichu, again, too predictable, nobody will switch nido into him because everybody know that people just use raichu over electaboos because surf.

 

[Enigami]

I did read your post, but I misinterpreted what you meant by 'electaboobs'.

I think you misread what I wrote too, Raichu's Surf and Electabuzz's Psychic does almost exactly the same damage to Nidoqueen (0.04% difference to 3HKO). So... explain to me why Raichu's Surf is so important?

 

[Laveley]

I'm not saying the surf itself is important, i'm saying that whenever you see a raichu you know he is using surf, because otherwise, theres no point in using him over electaboobs. So, it is quite predictable and you can switch a grass type instead of nido and completely shut him down. got it?

 

[ApplepieFTW]

Did you even read what i wrote?

Do you really are trying to say that electrics take down nido.... REALLY?

Well, in case you are not trolling, i will repeat myself, even though i dont like it, to try to make it clear:

Your electabuzz numbers just prove he is shut down by nido... is a 2 HKO vs a 3 HKO, do the math (also, where did i stated electaboobs didnt existed? lol). "Oh but if the player predicts correctly the switch", if a player predicts correctly every switch than he can win no matter what, thats not the point. Also, nido has LK and/or moonlight for you to take into account, nido can put electaboobs to sleep or just tank with moonlight and than earthquake it to oblivion.

About raichu, again, too predictable, nobody will switch nido into him because everybody know that people just use raichu over electaboos because surf.

What are you even trying to say? Ebuzz checks slowbro just fine (but you won't be switching it in too often, except on a rest I guess), and just so happens to be able to 3hko nido. That's pretty nice because it forces nido to recover at some point if it doesn't want to die, giving you the advantage. Then you can switch to a nido check(/counter) like granbull/mr mime and then go on the offensive. It's also not true that lanturn and mr mime are the only counters. See:

Good Counters:

• Bellossom - Not 3HKOed by anything, has Leech Seed/Razor Leaf/SD

It's definitely annoyed by twave a bit, but it can stun spore essentially everything, including set-up mons that supposedly destroy it

• Politoed - Not 3HKOed by Psychic, can set up with Growth and RestTalk or just smack with HP Electric

Resttalk toad is a full on counter, how don't you see this? It just sets up in slowbro's face

• Ampharos - Not 3HKOed by anything, Thunder wrecks it.

Resttalk amphy is also a 100% counter, the downside is that it does invite nido, but with spikes you can punish the continuous switch-ins. You also have 5 more mons, but yeah it's sort of a passive situation. It's annoyed slightly by twave, but it can rest so yeah.

• Chansey - Can set up Light Screen to make it easier for teammates to switch-in or use Curse (actually kinda legit since Lucky Punch gives you a 25% crit rate) to set up on it, Heal Bell

I've not used a (curse) chansey, but heal bell definitely lets you be more agressive with mons that would otherwise despise taking a status, letting you bluff a suicide of sorts.

• Hypno - Can set up Light Screen to help teammates deal with it or smack it a bit with TPunch/Zap Cannon, can't do much else but Slowbro can't do much to it either so it can PP stall

How is Hypno bad? The reason to use it over mr mime fyi because it's a rather good nido switch-in. Now I'll agree that this isn't actually a counter on it's own, because "lel just pp stall for 80 turns" is not a viable approach (I mean it works but you'll probably lose a bunch of brain cells in the process), and no matter what mon you want to switch in with light screen up, you still have to take thunder wave into account.

• Slowbro/Slowking - If you have nothing else, Slowbro walls itself and can PP stall.

This should not be a common situation, ever. It's just really dumb and pointless, even in dire situations. Once this happens it's sort of "hey let's try to switch to a check on a turn that you don't sleep talk" which is a really stupid situation.

Now I really do think that slowbro is pretty dumb because a lot of its counters are still annoyed by twave, forcing them to be more passive than they would be otherwise (cus you can start fishing for paras quite easily if they managed to not recover when they wanted to the last time they were in), but I mean you can definitely deal with it. It's just that most counters/hard checks have a clear switchin, which to me feels like the game dynamic really gravitates around slowbro. But that's just me, and I'm far from the best, but still... Isn't slowbro in UU solely because it gets less OU usage because of slowking anyway? (sort of like nidoqueen, but at least that's a more offensive mon that also happens to keep amphy in check so to me it feels like less of an issue, idk hard to describe exactly why, it's just not as passive(=more boring? maybe maybe not) I guess)

edit bc you literally just posted:

whenever you see a raichu you know he is using surf, because otherwise, theres no point in using him over electaboobs

This literally makes no sense. Because electabuzz is better (or maybe it's not, whatever) doesn't mean raichu has to always click surf? You can also use tbolt? Not using surf doesn't mean you've ruined that teamslot, idgi.

So, it is quite predictable and you can switch a grass type instead of nido and completely shut him down. got it?

By this logic electabuzz is literally just as predictable, because like Enigami said surf and psychic to the same damage so uh...