Gen 2 GSC Viability Ranking (OU)

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#76
Another note on the Blissey usage:
In spl (it is kinda safe to assume that people involved at least slightly know what they are doing) there were a total of 4 Blisseys. Just to put that in relation, there were 81 Snorlax', 45 Zapdos, 31 Raikous. A rank mons were 52 Cloysters, 35 Exeggutors, 33 Tyranitars, 30 Skarmorys, 23 Gengars, 18 Starmies, 18 Nidokings, 14 Miltanks, 13 Vaporeons, 13 Steelix' and 6 Suicunes. So Blissey did not outrun a single A rank mon in usage in that tournament, unlike other B rank mons like Machamp with a usage of 17, Umbreon with a usage of 12, etc.
I know tournament play =/= total usage, etc. But i think it's a nice proof of how less relevant Blissey has gotten in GSC OU.
 
#77
I don't have the current usage stats in my head but i don't see many blisseys lately. Snorlax just keeps Blissey usage low. And blissey above any S rank pokemon in usage? never. Same for big parts of the A rank.
Most recent PS stats have Blissey above Raikou in usage. He's right about that.

They also have Alakazam above Vaporeon/Nidoking, and Scizor/Heracross/Dragonite above Miltank.

My reaction: What? Nine thousand? There's no way that can be right! CAN IT?!
 
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Jorgen

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#78
For what it's worth Blissey probably should be used more often than it is. It has an easier time than Miltank when it comes to actually getting Heal Bells off.

B rank is fine for it though, it's such massive setup fodder.
 
#83
If I look at B-rank - Blissey, Misdreavus, and Forretress are significantly better than Machamp, Marowak, and Heracross.

And back in S rank - Zapdos is disgustingly strong. Raikou is literally good for walling Zapdos. Snorlax and Zapdos are a fairly close 1-2, while I think Raikou is more A-tier worthy.
 
#84
If I look at B-rank - Blissey, Misdreavus, and Forretress are significantly better than Machamp, Marowak, and Heracross.

And back in S rank - Zapdos is disgustingly strong. Raikou is literally good for walling Zapdos. Snorlax and Zapdos are a fairly close 1-2, while I think Raikou is more A-tier worthy.
Raikou also stops Gengar, which Zapdos doesn't. Better speed (notably outspeeding Charizard and Tentacruel instead of tying, and the aforementioned Gengar). Easier switch into Ice Beam Suicune. With Roar, stops GrowthJolt and AgiPass Jolt.

And walling Zapdos and itself is enormous; every team needs a switch-in to those two.
 

Jorgen

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#85
If I look at B-rank - Blissey, Misdreavus, and Forretress are significantly better than Machamp, Marowak, and Heracross.

And back in S rank - Zapdos is disgustingly strong. Raikou is literally good for walling Zapdos. Snorlax and Zapdos are a fairly close 1-2, while I think Raikou is more A-tier worthy.
I don't know about your first point. I mean yeah, they're all a bit better than Heracross, but other than that the only mon really standing out imo is Misdreavus, and not really that much. Regardless, they tend to be more just really good role players than all-around good mons you can bring in whenever, which makes them more fitting in B than A imo.

I kinda agree with you on Raikou though. Snorlax and Zapdos are very difficult to deal with because they can match up well against everything. Every Ground under the sun can make Raikou sweat, though, so he isn't the same sort of matchup machine.
 

Mr.E

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#86
Raikou is a bit more notable than Jolteon or the swath of Electric-types nobody cares about, since it has the same BST as Zapdos (read: both hits hard and never dies) and Crunch in its back pocket to wear down most opponents that would attempt a staring contest with it. It beats a lot of same stuff as Zapdos, it just can't switch into Ground-types and win which is where Zapdos' real advantage lies between the two.

Personally Snorlax was my only S but if I were to put these thoughts into the context of the list as-is in Jorgen's OP, my Zapdos would be "S-" and Raikou "A+." Zapdos is as obviously superior to Raikou as Raikou is to everything else still.

notably outspeeding Charizard and Tentacruel
I do not think that means what you think it means.
 

Jorgen

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#88
Not really. Zapdos takes 46-54% from +1 Surf, so you need absolute max rolls to 2HKO there. Raikou takes 43-51%, which is a significant damage reduction, but not game-changing all that often. Both are cleanly 2HKOed by +1 Hydro Pump. I'd prefer Zapdos in most situations because of the lack of a Spikes weakness, not to mention the ability prevent accumulation of residual Surf damage by avoiding being instantly forced out by Grounds.
 

Jorgen

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#91
Raikou is guaranteed to survive Pump > lefts > lefts > +1 Pump, whereas Zapdos can be KOed by that sequence if Vap gets some fairly high rolls. It's still not terribly likely.

edit: Having only 1 leftovers turn makes Zapdos a lot more likely to be 2HKOed, whereas it's barely 2HKO range for Raikou, so that's right, at least. It's becoming more and more clear that I should brush up on my Vap calcs, I should know a lot of these off the top of my head.

Perhaps more notable is that Thief'd Raikou is very rarely 2HKOed by +1 Surf, whereas it averages a 2HKO vs a Thief'd Zap.
 
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#93
I do not think that means what you think it means.
"Worthy of notice; remarkable; memorable; noted or distinguished."

It is worthwhile to remark that Raikou outspeeds Charizard, because +6 Charizard has an OHKO on both Zapdos and Raikou and therefore Zapdos will fail to counter it if Charizard wins the speed tie. It is worthwhile to remark that Raikou outspeeds Gengar, because Gengar often has Destiny Bond and Zapdos therefore cannot kill it safely.

It is slightly less worthwhile to remark that Raikou outspeeds Tentacruel, but as both Electrics do take large amounts of damage from +2 Sludge Bombs, Raikou does have a greater margin of safety than Zapdos in the matchup.

So where exactly did I misuse the word "notable", nitwit?
 

Jorgen

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#94
Gengar doesn't carry Dbond all that often. Gengar just keeps Zapdos from switching in to absorb a possible Hypnosis with its faster Ice Punch 3HKO. If no switching in is necessary, Zapdos fares just fine against Gengar.

Also he clearly just means that Tentacruel and Charizard aren't really common enough to list outspeeding them as key advantages held by Raikou over Zapdos. I mean, it is important, but it's not the sort of advantage that Raikou is going to express every game.
 
#95
Gengar doesn't carry Dbond all that often. Gengar just keeps Zapdos from switching in to absorb a possible Hypnosis with its faster Ice Punch 3HKO. If no switching in is necessary, Zapdos fares just fine against Gengar.
Hmm, it would seem that Dbond usage isn't as high as I remember.

Also he clearly just means that Tentacruel and Charizard aren't really common enough to list outspeeding them as key advantages held by Raikou over Zapdos. I mean, it is important, but it's not the sort of advantage that Raikou is going to express every game.
Well, no. But it is notable (ie, worth noting), and I do not appreciate being sniped at with misapplied pithy quotes like E just did.
 
#96
I wouldn't say that zapdos is better than raikou. When zapdos is used over raikou it's usually because more power is needed, heracross is a problem, or the team has a big earthquake weakness. Whereas when somone needs a better special sponge or coverage against the two sweepers above you'd take raikou. As uncommon as they may be now, if you don't have starmie on your team than any good charizard player can find a way to get him set up. In terms of special phazing raikou is far superior to zapdos.

Also, misdreavus should be in bitch tier.
 
#97
yeah i agree with jaq, although not the reasoning part. but zapdos and raikou are definitely in the same sentence/area code, FAR closer than egg and raikou or zap and snorlax.

raikou being by far the most resilient special way means you can run snorlax more aggressively. running snorlax with no recovery is one of the best ways to break stall still. miltank + skarm is your go to snorlax stop, but what if you go balls deep with curse, lk, fb, de? and you can totally do that safely and consistently if you run alongside raikou since you don't have to take residual special hits.
 

Mr.E

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lol flamethrower

"Worthy of notice; remarkable; memorable; noted or distinguished."

It is worthwhile to remark that Raikou outspeeds Charizard...

So where exactly did I misuse the word "notable", nitwit?
The fact that Charizard (and Tentacruel) is not remotely notable in the GSC OU metagame. Untwist your panties, bro. ;[

Gengar is notable. Starmie is notable, though not as relevant since it rarely carries Ice Beam and is often too busy doing cutesy support shit anyway. Not speed tying with other Zapdos is notable... Zapdos speed tying with Miltank is almost an advantage since that makes it a lot tougher to Milk Drink against its harder-hitting Thunderbolts, heh.
 
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