Guide to RBY Battling

[Hipmonlee]

Oh wow, why did no one tell me about this!

Looking forward to examining this!

Ok yeah, this isnt really a great guide. I have some nitpicks, but I have some bigger issues with this. The main one being that it is mostly a summary of the uses of certain pokemon. The site already has summaries of the uses of pokemon. If I wanted an RBY guide I would want more big picture info.

Hmm.. Ok, for instance if I was writing this. I would start with lead selection. Then your basic goals when battling.
You want to sleep something early, so it doesnt get interfered with by too much paralysis. Likewise you want to stop your opponent sleeping anything too early.
Then you want to paralyse Zam and Starmie so something can sweep (probably Tauros), you want to avoid getting your Zam and Starmie paralysed so you wont get swept.
If you have Chansey you want to avoid paralysing the enemy Chansey, but you do want to paralyse everything else. You do need to have a decent chance to kill a paralysed Chansey, and to win despite a frozen Chansey. I would have a big mention of the potential for Chansey vs Chansey freeze wars.
If you want to wrap or use lapras or persian you need to get rid of Gengar.
If you want to use Zapdos, you need to kill the Ground.

Have a nice day.

 

[Crystal_]

Zam: Counter allows it to beat Seismic Toss Alakazam

Counter doesnt really make any difference, since after the initial 64% surprise, the matchup can just be Psychic vs Psychic.

Egg: sporting four of Sleep Powder, Mega Drain, Stun Spore, Double-Edge, Explosion and Psychic.

Ill change it to "sporting Psychic and Explosion and two of Sleep Powder, Stun, Drain and D-E. Stun is much better than MD anyway, since Starmie cares much more about para than MD due to Recover and 32 pp, and Rhydon/Golem switches out vs Egg unless he overpredicts a switch or whatever. D-E is even better too, since Jynx is something Egg enjoys hitting in the switch-in.

Confirming: Gar sucks. Not always but tends too. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Night Shade is better than drain given that eggy usually comes into it after gar sleeps something.

Reflect Bro should be mentioned imo, since it can 6-0 standard teams that lack Starmie or destroy them when/if Star is gone.

Starmie is probably the reason Chansey is needed on every team

Starmie is rather fragile and therefore, non-Chansey teams can still play around it with Water, Zam and/or Snorlax, but obviously is much more difficult and youll often end up trading with Lax or something. And para definitely makes it much less of a threat if you score it. Also, mention Hydro Pump. 3HKO in Snorlax and Alakazam is awesome, and 2HKO in Tauros too; as well as 2HKO and sometimes OHKO with a CH respectively. Non-STAB Star sucks. 20% to Snorlax is a joke for something considered the best/main special sweeper in RBY.

Lastly, no way the team is standard because Gengar and Bro aren't =P. If there's a "standard archetype" it's imo Tauros, Snorlax, usually Chansey and then 3 of Egg, Zam, Lapras, Rock, Starmie and Jynx. Then you have Bro, Cloy, Gar, electric and these ones.

Didn't count Wrap moves in the post. I've never played with them.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

@Brammi: I don't see them being common enough to be mentioned under "standards".

@Mekkah: Fixing the descriptions, and changing the sample team entirely to what you mentioned.

@Hipmonlee: Adding a new section for leads, and general battling strategy.

@Crystal: Fixing.

 

[Thorns]

emphasize you need a sleeper
mention a paralyzed pokemon is for the most part dead weight bar a few like
chansey, mention how chanseys try to paralyze themselves so they can't freeze

 

[Mekkah]

Confirming: Gar sucks. Not always but tends too. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Night Shade is better than drain given that eggy usually comes into it after gar sleeps something.

Gengar has the highest chance of getting the first sleep in even with Hypnosis's inaccuracy, can make a Tauros second-guess what move to use and absorb Explosions as well as boom itself. It is most definitely worse than the cream of the crop but "Gengar sucks" is ridiculous.

Reflect Bro should be mentioned imo, since it can 6-0 standard teams that lack Starmie or destroy them when/if Star is gone.

Yeah, I like Reflect Bro. Note that the main reason it's so good is because it makes Explosion do nothing, which is the best way for most teams to stop it if they don't use Starmie. But practically every team should have Starmie anyway.

Non-STAB Star sucks. 20% to Snorlax is a joke for something considered the best/main special sweeper in RBY.

What are you suggesting? Dropping Thunder Wave, or dropping one of Thunderbolt/Blizzard? Because Blizzard/Thunderbolt/Recover/Thunder Wave is the set I've been rolling with most of the time. It has the best overall coverage, and a little less damage to neutral targets like Alakazam, Chansey, Snorlax etc. seems less important than being able to hurt both Starmie and Exeggutor. Especially given that most of the neutral targets can Recover, which means doing 5-10% more isn't going to make a difference as often.

Speaking of doing a little more, I would never use Hydro Pump. 3HKO on Alakazam isn't going to do diddly squat unless it's paralyzed and you're not, or you get lucky with crits or something. I'll admit it can be nice vs Tauros and Snorlax, but you will miss a bunch of times when it matters (think Rhydon using Substitute), and run out of PP when it comes down to that.

Giving it a mention is probably okay but in the 832903820932 games I've played I've never seen anyone use Hydro Pump.

 

[Crystal_]

Gengar has the highest chance of getting the first sleep in even with Hypnosis's inaccuracy, can make a Tauros second-guess what move to use and absorb Explosions as well as boom itself. It is most definitely worse than the cream of the crop but "Gengar sucks" is ridiculous.

I completely agree, but I felt that the statement needed an extra impact, since you can see that Gengar is in 70-80% of rby teams nowadays. Non-lead Gengar is a waste imo though, since apart from the "lead advantage" it usually gets vs Jynx and Egg, it's a worse, less consistent pokemon overall, that almost always relies on prediction to do something relevant.

STAB Starmie is much better for many reasons imo. It adds another almost 100% counter to the list otherwise: Alakazam. It's an easy poke to para, and a para one may lose to Starmie if it comes into Hydro even without doing anything in return. Also without it, Snorlax wins the matchup with 45-50% hp left on average, and Tauros almost always beats you, while with Hydro Pump you'll often beat the former and almost always teh later. Also, 2HKO on Persian; 3HKO on Gengar etc (though I know these are not really relevant). Lastly, although this is just a cool factor more than anything, CH does 40% to Chansey in the switch, which is usually an extra turn the physical switch gets (as she softboiled) or one less hit it needs.

IMO the post replaceable move is Blizzard, since Eggy is usually one of the first pokes to fall in a battle, and any damage it takes from any hit, is damage it can't recover. In addition Eggy can't really do much to you outside of status and explode, and after all, eggy can score them even if you have blizz (yet i know that obviously egg will have less pressure to predict the explosion). Anyway I would stay vs Eggy even if i had blizzard to take a para despite doing 40% to it.
TW is another option imo. Althout TW Starmie is teh best way to (bait)para Chansey I guess this can be done easily anyway. And usually Starmie is better off attacking physicals usually anyway (as long as there's STAB; otherwise it tends to be more productive over time to para them, due to less damage).

Tbolt and Recover should be there imo. Tbolt is important for Slowbro and Lapras (for Starmie TWave + Chansey is completely enough, but for Lapras it might not be if you can't predict correctly and get the TW as lapras switchs in). Recover isn't really that necessary imo though, since he can't really recover against anything unless it's a switch; and a predicted switch to Chansey can be capitalized by switching to your own Snorlax/Tauros/Rhydon etc. And if an odd late game stall matchup vs Alakazam/Chansey happen, Starmie would usually lose against both due to spc falls and tbolt respectively. In fact Hydro Pump will help against Zam. However, Recover definitely helps against MDrain Egg (rarely used though, as Stun is better overall) and, if Starmie happens to be an important defensive poke against Slowbro, Rhydon or whatever, being able to recover when you opponent goes to Chansey is pretty important, yet Recover doesnt make any difference vs Slowbro 1vs1.

Surf is an 100% acc. alternative to Surf, though i consider Hydro Pump better (i like it more). Surf 4HKOes the things Hydro Pump 3HKO, and 3HKOes the things HPump 2HKOes.

 

[Conflict]

I completely agree, but I felt that the statement needed an extra impact, since you can see that Gengar is in 70-80% of rby teams nowadays.

What? I havent seen an Gengar in ages. I think stuff like Cloyster is more commonly used by now.

And i disagree with giving up a se attack vs eggy. Eggy is one of the most annoying Pokes to face in RBY and you dont want to give Eggy free switches all day (considering nothing really walls Eggy). You need almost perfect prediction for Eggy or you are goin to lose a Pokemon (and one to sleep).

And recovery is to good to pass up i wouldnt even consider it.....

@Topic itself: Just read through your so called guide and to be honest this is more of an summary of the analysis in the smogon dex than a proper guide. People can look up the sets themselves a guide should concentrate on the playing aspect imo. You could explain some smart moves for example switching Chansey in an Thunderwave so it cant be frozen anymore. In the same regard you dont want to paralyze your opponents Chansey so your Chansey will eventually win (eventually, cuz well the_chaser vs nachos....).

tl;dr: Not a guide but a summary of the already existing analysis lacking depth.

 

[Crystal_]

Exeggutor can't really do anything to Alakazam/Chansey/Starmie so in the worst scenario you can send one of these and force it to explode to do something. Blizzard on Starmie doesnt really make that much of a difference imo. Also Lapras and especially Jynx can come into eggy few times, and since eggy is usually coming into STAB Rock Slides or Body Slams, he will usually die/explode before beating Lapras/Jynx.
Sleep shouldn't be considered as an extra bonus, since it's so presupposed to happen in every battle that every team has a plan to play around it (aka sleep absorber or something).

You could explain some smart moves for example switching Chansey in an Thunderwave so it cant be frozen anymore. In the same regard you dont want to paralyze your opponents Chansey so your Chansey will eventually win

I don't really think this is a good idea imo, unless Chansey has Reflect or maybe Counter, since a para chansey trying to freeze is an easy bait for a physical switch, mainly Snorlax. I think paralyzing everything in general and then try to break defenses with Snorlax/Tauros/Rhydon etc is a more effective strategy, but thats beside the point anyway. I agree that a guide that focuses in how to play, how to make teams would be more useful imo; anyway great job Destiny Warrior.

 

[gene]

mention a paralyzed pokemon is for the most part dead weight bar a few like

shit no

stab on starmie is worth mentioning, but only as surf > blizzard. hydro pump is stupid, enjoy your misses.

 

[Lucchini]

I see non-lead Gengars all over the place tbh. With the dominance of Zam leads though, lead Gengar has to switch out first turn too often, and if that Hypnosis on other leads misses (which it often does), you'll be eating a Psychic the same turn, or falling asleep instead of your target (vs. Jynx and Egg).

Really, non-lead Gar has numerous advantages. If you don't reveal it in the first turns, you can predict an early Explosion or wall Persian completely when it thinks nothing in your team can counter it anymore. When you've slept something though, the matchups for Gengar against pretty much anything else aren't good, so the best thing it can do is sleep something, inflict confusion on the switch, then boom, in addition to the many strategic defensive functions it's employed for.

 

[Consumptus]

Hydro Pump Starmie 2hko's Tauros (and therefore beats it barring a paraslam) or OHKO with a crit. That's certainly worth mentioning.

 

[gene]

it also misses

a guide to playing in rby shouldn't be about movesets and highly-situational options in the first place. an outline of everything that's worth using is important, but you desperately need actual battle strategy.

and i agree with this

Why not leave this to someone who has played a lot of RBY, like when it was in the tour? This needs so much fixing just to become up to par...

because teaching people how to make correct moves can't/shouldn't be bsed. i vaguely remember an rby guide jackal wrote, maybe some of that would be useful.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I dunno if this is the place to discuss specifics like whether hydropump is a good idea on Starmie, but the standard set has always been twave, tbolt then a choice of either surf or blizzard.

An introductory guide should stick to what is standard, even if you think it is a bad idea.

Have a nice day.

 

[Mekkah]

Jynx vs Alakazam: Vs Alakazam: Switch to Chansey to soak up the Psychic or to get paralyzed, and then force it out with the threat of paralysis.

The downside is that Alakazam must flee from Pokemon with Thunder Wave until it has done its job of eliminating Physical threats and paralyzing the required Pokemon.

Alakazam isn't that scared of paralysis. Just because it has 120 Spd doesn't mean it can't be paralyzed. It's a pretty fine sleep absorber when all is said and done. It does become worse against unparalyzed physicals but it's not Starmie. Alakazam is unlikely to do a sweep with all those other Psychics around, so you might as well have it do something else. Paralysis also stops it from being frozen by Chansey.

Snorlax is Tauros' partner. Snorlax helps in weakening a team and spreading paralysis. It also is a useful Exploder, which can remove Chansey, a huge asset. It also is good for killing weak paralyzed Pokemon with Hyper Beam.

Snorlax isn't anyone's partner. It's just a slow guy that takes a while to die and dishes out huge damage. Sure, Body Slam can paralyze things, but that definitely doesn't make it something that "spreads paralysis" like Alakazam or Chansey can. Removing Chansey with Explosion? It can defeat it one on one with Body Slam and Hyper Beam, Exploding is a waste.

Here's generally what Snorlax does in RBY: it ends up facing Exeggutor, and then one of them Explodes and they're both as good as dead.

Paralysis is one of the most important statuses in RBY, and is the most commonly seen. Often, if you have a free turn and are not sure what to do, using a paralysis move is a low-risk option with high rewards. This especially works if none of your opponent's Pokemon have been afflicted with a status condition.

Then you're giving them a sleep absorber. Don't do that.

Inflicting paralysis is also important for the sake of allowing sweepers to pick apart a team, as fast Pokemon like Gengar and Alakazam can give them problems.

Tauros and Starmie are much better examples given that they have STAB attacks that aren't resisted by everything and their mother.

Gonna put this here again:

Why not leave this to someone who has played a lot of RBY, like when it was in the tour?

Why are you writing a RBY guide when you clearly haven't played it (on a high enough level)?

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Why not leave this to someone who has played a lot of RBY, like when it was in the tour?

I took up writing this article, because quite literally, nobody else is taking it up, and nor has anybody ever expressed interest in doing the article. I know I'm not the greatest RBY player out there, so I do need help with the article. I picked up RBY a few months ago, so I don't really have as much experience as people like G80, you etc. at the highest levels of play.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I wrote an RBY guide today. I will probably post it tomorrow.

Sorry to muscle in on you like this, I hope you understand.

Have a nice day.

 

[Fatecrashers]

hipmonlee took this over