And are you trying to say a max hp/max attack spread is viable? That's something I would call idiotic. It gets a speed boost up to 100 base speed so its going to want to invest into it. No non-TR/priority sweeper wouldn't invest in speed; its common sense. I am also basing my argument on experience from my battles since I have used Hawlucha in every battle. Hawlucha fears nothing but a normal move which is why he is a good check.
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Pokémon Hawlucha
- Thread starter Molk
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T-T-T-T-TRIPLE POST (try to edit your post instead of making more...)
Actually, I knew Hawlucha learned Encore, but I had not considered that Encore was so strong against Aegislash. Starting to run into serious 4MSS here (Acro/HJK/SD/Encore?) but it's still not a bad idea, especially considering max speed Hawlucha is pretty blisteringly fast.
At the very least, it would force a switch or let you SD up while it worthlessly King's Shields. I don't really think even Aegislash can live through much in the way of +6 Acrobatics.
+6 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%)
Jesus. I don't know if that's a testament to Aegislash being a boss-tier wall or to +6 anything being scary as hell. Bait out the King's Shield, let it give you the drop, then hit encore and SD up on the switch or continue to SD up if they stay in. It's not going to outspeed with anything but Shadow Sneak and that won't really put a dent in Hawlucha. I mean, you'd effectively force a switch, but you'd still wind up even, even if you smacked the Shield and got the attack drop.
Actually, I knew Hawlucha learned Encore, but I had not considered that Encore was so strong against Aegislash. Starting to run into serious 4MSS here (Acro/HJK/SD/Encore?) but it's still not a bad idea, especially considering max speed Hawlucha is pretty blisteringly fast.
At the very least, it would force a switch or let you SD up while it worthlessly King's Shields. I don't really think even Aegislash can live through much in the way of +6 Acrobatics.
+6 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%)
Jesus. I don't know if that's a testament to Aegislash being a boss-tier wall or to +6 anything being scary as hell. Bait out the King's Shield, let it give you the drop, then hit encore and SD up on the switch or continue to SD up if they stay in. It's not going to outspeed with anything but Shadow Sneak and that won't really put a dent in Hawlucha. I mean, you'd effectively force a switch, but you'd still wind up even, even if you smacked the Shield and got the attack drop.
My fault for using the wrong term - MKang is a tank, not a sweeper. Bulky MKang is a very common set, especially post-Bank. She can boost her ability to survive even SE hits better than she can boost her speed, especially since a lot of people try to check her with priority so speed doesn't even matter. I started out with a Jolly 252 Spe MKang and quickly switched to 252 HP. It survives much longer and kills a lot more - as I proved with the calcs I gave you that lead to MKang beating Hawlucha. How is surviving a SE STAB hit from a sweeper and potentially killing it in return not a compelling argument for running a bulky set?
What exactly are you running on your Hawlucha then? Just wondering since you don't seem to be running into the same problems as others in this thread when it comes to it. Obviously everyone's mileage is going to vary depending on which simulator they play on or if they're just playing off the cart. The main difference being that the cart doesn't have access to Flying Gem to make the best of Unburden and Acrobatics.
Also wouldn't Hawlucha lose its stat boosts once it baton passes (if you're running it) or gets phazed out? What happens then? You have to start over from scratch. Except this time nothing to trigger Unburden. Nevermind counters.
But then again Hawlucha should have a team to back it up...
That's why I'd stick with encore rather than baton pass (not that I have a choice, since I am playing entirely off the cart and don't have anything to breed baton pass from at the moment). I see Hawlucha as a smash-n-grab. Set it up with unburden and SD, use encore to control the things you don't like (giving you the chance for 2 or even 3 SDs in the process) and go nuts. Then when it's gone, it's gone.
If the opponent has a Talonflame, kill that off first (in 3v3, I leave Hawlucha out of the team if the opponent has a Talonflame). Nothing else I have found to be a guaranteed check against the little fighting bird. The biggest danger is normally a HJK gone wrong.
If the opponent has a Talonflame, kill that off first (in 3v3, I leave Hawlucha out of the team if the opponent has a Talonflame). Nothing else I have found to be a guaranteed check against the little fighting bird. The biggest danger is normally a HJK gone wrong.
I haven't run a Flying Gem since it became obvious that it wasn't going to be available in-game, and I play on both the cart and on Showdown. I've had success with the same set on both formats. I haven't really settled on an item, but have been switching between using a Red Card and a Lum Berry with Acrobatics, High Jump Kick, BP, and Swords Dance. The item and corresponding Unburden boost are really quite incidental, honestly, because I find that it's generally better to pass once having gained a boost than to attack. Hawlucha can only ever sweep if the opponent doesn't have a Talonflame or an Aegislash (surely the most ubiquitous of the new Pokemon), a Mamoswine to Ice Shard it, a Sableye to burn it, a Quagsire to wall it, a Klefki to paralyse it, etc. And even then, only if it doesn't suffer so much damage in setting up as to put it within KO range of M-Lucario's Extremespeed/ Bullet Punch, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Megakhan's Fake Out/ Sucker Punch combo, etc. At the same time, none of these Pokemon except Aegislash can safely switch-in on Hawlucha's STAB combo. Hence, I've had the most success with Hawlucha when:
i) I play it as hit-and-run early game and don't force the Dance.
ii) I don't get too attached to Unburden boosts. They're useful but not mandatory for Hawlucha to perform its function.
iii) I pass when I've gotten the boost unless I'm faced with a pHazing wall, in which case I kill it.
This works fine on 3v3 on Wifi play (where I've had a fair share of Hawlucha sweeps), but will simply not work in 6v6. Encore can facilitate opportunities for Swords Dance, but in 6v6, every decent opponent is going to have -something- that can come in and either wall or revenge Hawlucha.
Even if Flying Gem comes out eventually (evidence from Battle Maison indicates no), it won't be a big deal because of the nerf. And you could just run no item.
That's still a ridiculous disadvantage. and he just doesn't have anything to use Unburden with otherwise.
I've been using it and it works fine. It doesn't actually need the Flying Gem boost to perform its function, and it doesn't even really need to Unburden. They're advantages, but not mandatory ones.
I'm using Rotom-H, Hippowdon, Mega-Mawile and Hawlucha as the backbone. M-Mawile has baton pass and there is great synergy between Hippowdon, Rotom-H and Hawlucha.
Has anyone discussed the use of Bounce with Power herb? It's less powerful than Sky Attack, but can be used slightly more after the item has been consumed. Obviously outclassed by Flying Gem in the long run, but could be an alternative for cart players for now.
It's a poor choice over a Lum Berry or even a Red Card even in the absence of the Flying Gem, since it essentially reduces Hawlucha to relying on High Jump Kick for damage after the Power Herb has been consumed, allowing any number of threats who were previously OHKOed or 2HKOed to come in against it.
Getting rather tired of saying this, but Hawlucha does not need the Flying Gem to be effective. It doesn't even need the Unburden boost.
The biggest problem is that Acrobatics is by far its best flying stab, but it's difficult to use without a gem, or at least less effective and unreliable. Unburden would have perfect synergy with it, making him a raging death machine after a single swords dance.
He sadly doesn't get EQ to use with mold breaker.
He sadly doesn't get EQ to use with mold breaker.
Maybe its just me but does anyone else see SubLiechi potential? Substitute down to liechi berry preferably grab an attack boost of your choice then attack with HJK and acrobatics. It works nicely as an end-game sweeper. Has some obviously problems such as Zapdos, Thundurus forms, Aegislash walling it and it suffers from basic uselessness until it sets-up. Still I like it and it works well for lack of flying gem. Heres the set:
Hawlucha @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws/Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics
Hawlucha @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws/Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Acrobatics
In OU where priority is so common? Not particularly a good idea unfortunately, though its a pretty cool way to use it. The other major risk is that HJK and substitute in tandem with each other can get very risky, with the potential to KO yourself when setting up. That being said, SubSDSalac berry terrakion was viable, so it certainly can work, but its a lot harder to remove all priority before initiating a sweep this gen.
Now if hawlucha is allowed in UU, which has only unreliable priority to speak of...this will be a very nasty set to deal with.
Edit: Derp, just noticed the slash of hone claws and SD, ignore the HJK issue.
After doing a bit of reading on Mold Breaker, I was shocked to see a few things that it ignores. In particular, since our bird is so often looking to set up an SD sweep, it ignores things like Multiscale (+2 Adamant Hawlucha scores a guaranteed 1HKO on Dragonite). It can 2HKO Quagsire (Unaware fails against Mold Breaker) and land a Taunt through Magic Bounce or Oblivious.
Situational but cool. I only really thought about Levitate, I had no idea so many defensive Abilities were crapped on by Mold Breaker.
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Since Flying-Gem hasn't been released yet (for EITHER XY OU metagame, might I add), I've been testing out a joke team with ChestoResto Hawlucha alongside Defog / Memento Latios. It hasn't been too bad, although I will say that getting the requirements met for Hawluch is not exactly easy (unless you switch into Mandibuzz or Bisharp's Knock Off, ehehe, since that still activates UnBurden.
I must say though that Hawlucha needs ample support to work so I don't know how viable it is in all honesty. Then again, I haven't tried FG so maybe FB will make it better?
Also, with UnBurden, you hit 546 speed with zero speed investment so why on earth is there SPEED investment? Like, what are you trying to outrun? I could maybe see Deo-S being a problem but I play PO so it's non-existant for me so I don't know? Maybe when Deo-S gets inevitabley banned (it will happen lmao) we can all universally agree on 0 speed investment (unless you want to outrun Excadril or something with unboosted speed?)
I must say though that Hawlucha needs ample support to work so I don't know how viable it is in all honesty. Then again, I haven't tried FG so maybe FB will make it better?
Also, with UnBurden, you hit 546 speed with zero speed investment so why on earth is there SPEED investment? Like, what are you trying to outrun? I could maybe see Deo-S being a problem but I play PO so it's non-existant for me so I don't know? Maybe when Deo-S gets inevitabley banned (it will happen lmao) we can all universally agree on 0 speed investment (unless you want to outrun Excadril or something with unboosted speed?)
Yea it was a joke for the most part but Hawlucha would be able to kill it with U-turn.
ChestoResto was the only set I could think of that could reliably utilize Unburden. It worked pretty well for me but there were also a lot of times where I would not be able to set up simply because every team has so much priority going for it right now.
Hawlucha doesn't need that much support to work; you just need to be able to knock out some of the few threats that outspeed or wall it. Mostly Aegislash and Talonflame.
Jolly max speed is overkill if you get the Unburden boost every time. If you run Limber or Mold Breaker, or if you assume that you won't always have an Unburden boost up, Jolly with max speed investment outspeeds a few notable enemies, like Timid max speed Tornadus and Jolly ScarfTar.
Been using this set to much success as a pivot/late game cleaner:
Hawlucha @ Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Sky Attack
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
Fighting/flying STAB has coverage good enough to not need an additional coverage move. High speed coupled with some good resistances gives Hawlucha the ability to perform well as a scout. Obviously, having both Sky Attack and Acrobatics might seem odd at first glance. It's currently the only reliable way to make use of Unburden on a powerful attack without any severe consequences (ie herbless sky attack). Furthermore, revealing PH Sky Attack is an excellent way to bluff "losing" your flying STAB. This set is essentially the closest thing to FG Acrobatics that Hawlucha can run.
Hawlucha does miss out on a couple of useful moves by running this set: Swords Dance and Encore. However, I have found it difficult to pull off a SD sweep in a metagame full of priority and bulky resists, which makes a hit-and-run set much more appealing.
4 Def EVs are for manipulating Genesect's Download to help teammates(Rotom-H) deal with it. I doubt Hawlucha can survive Genesect's special attacks anyway.
Hawlucha @ Power Herb
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Sky Attack
- Acrobatics
- U-turn
Fighting/flying STAB has coverage good enough to not need an additional coverage move. High speed coupled with some good resistances gives Hawlucha the ability to perform well as a scout. Obviously, having both Sky Attack and Acrobatics might seem odd at first glance. It's currently the only reliable way to make use of Unburden on a powerful attack without any severe consequences (ie herbless sky attack). Furthermore, revealing PH Sky Attack is an excellent way to bluff "losing" your flying STAB. This set is essentially the closest thing to FG Acrobatics that Hawlucha can run.
Hawlucha does miss out on a couple of useful moves by running this set: Swords Dance and Encore. However, I have found it difficult to pull off a SD sweep in a metagame full of priority and bulky resists, which makes a hit-and-run set much more appealing.
4 Def EVs are for manipulating Genesect's Download to help teammates(Rotom-H) deal with it. I doubt Hawlucha can survive Genesect's special attacks anyway.
I've been trying him out banded. He has just enough of a movepool and U-turn to make use of it, plus great speed and decent attack.
Can't decide what I like more, Limber to switch into all the thunder waves, or Mold Breaker to deal with sturdies.
Generally going with a moveset of HJK, U-Turn, Stone Edge, and then something silly like Flying Press or Poison Jab because fuck his movepool. If he got Shadow Claw, Brave Bird, or Earthquake he'd be so good. I'll never understand why they chose to make his only decent flying stab Acrobatics.
Can't decide what I like more, Limber to switch into all the thunder waves, or Mold Breaker to deal with sturdies.
Generally going with a moveset of HJK, U-Turn, Stone Edge, and then something silly like Flying Press or Poison Jab because fuck his movepool. If he got Shadow Claw, Brave Bird, or Earthquake he'd be so good. I'll never understand why they chose to make his only decent flying stab Acrobatics.
Has anyone actually thought of a sub set?
I mean, when using Hawlucha as a lead, you can easily encore,say, Stealth Rock, or you could drop a sub down, allowing you to either get an attack off or boost with SD.
What makes this strategy nice is that when Flying Gem is obtainable, it can get past (or at least weaken) certain obvious switch ins such as Tflame or ease prediction if the opponent has a ghost in play.
Any feedback on a strat like this would be greatly appreciated.
I mean, when using Hawlucha as a lead, you can easily encore,say, Stealth Rock, or you could drop a sub down, allowing you to either get an attack off or boost with SD.
What makes this strategy nice is that when Flying Gem is obtainable, it can get past (or at least weaken) certain obvious switch ins such as Tflame or ease prediction if the opponent has a ghost in play.
Any feedback on a strat like this would be greatly appreciated.
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