You do realize that SD chomp 2HKOes with Fire Fang right?
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Haxorus
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You do realize that SD chomp 2HKOes with Fire Fang right?
Haban berry allows it to stop choice scarf flygon from coming in and OHKO'ing with Outrage, while it also allows you to survive a hit from Garchomp as well. Scarf Flygon is neutralized the most, having the outrage only hit for about 40-50%. That basically means that if the Scarfgon thinks it's going to come in on a +1 Ono and outrage it out while it's at a nice amount of health, it'll be sadly mistaken to find the haban berry, and Ono now at a +2. Same goes for Garchomp as well, but you'll need a bulkier spread to survive at a reasonable amount of health.
Neutral hits maim the less defensive set Ono's that are more towards glass cannons. If anything, if you invest enough HP, and Defense EV's, Ono can survive alot more then what the common sets provide. Personally speaking, I prefer less atk EV's on my Ono, simply because his attack is already monsterous enough that EV's can be placed else were to give him more balance.
Also cosmic, Scizor will always be garuanteed that 2-3HKO simply because Ono doesn't like Bullet Punch, which is why scizor is such a problem for Ono. Not to mention Superpower, and U-turn still hurt like all holy hell, so not even luck can play a part in Ono's survival against that thing. And in regards to Weavile's Ice shard, we mentioned before that it'll always survive it, and basically K.O it in return so Weavile isn't a good check to Ono at all. Although, Mamoswine is, as LO Mamswine will always KO after SR, and has a high chance of K.O'ing without SR as well.
Neutral hits maim the less defensive set Ono's that are more towards glass cannons. If anything, if you invest enough HP, and Defense EV's, Ono can survive alot more then what the common sets provide. Personally speaking, I prefer less atk EV's on my Ono, simply because his attack is already monsterous enough that EV's can be placed else were to give him more balance.
Also cosmic, Scizor will always be garuanteed that 2-3HKO simply because Ono doesn't like Bullet Punch, which is why scizor is such a problem for Ono. Not to mention Superpower, and U-turn still hurt like all holy hell, so not even luck can play a part in Ono's survival against that thing. And in regards to Weavile's Ice shard, we mentioned before that it'll always survive it, and basically K.O it in return so Weavile isn't a good check to Ono at all. Although, Mamoswine is, as LO Mamswine will always KO after SR, and has a high chance of K.O'ing without SR as well.
D'oh! I forgot about Choice Scarf Flygon. Also, Ono can 2HKO Scizor with EQ after a DD with a reasonable amount of attack investment, so if Ono carries Leftovers, it can take two BPs (or not, if Scizor gets really lucky) and survive at ~1%-~16% health (at least with the spread I suggested above, I don't know how other spreads take it). Without Leftovers, it has ~25% chance to be KOed by two BPs (according to my calcs).
The reason I used 252 Atk Adamant was because DD Ono does a number to offensive teams without priority and/or a Scarfer (and as you mentioned, Haban helps with Scarfers), due to its great speed after a DD and amazing attack, so I wanted it to deal a bit more damage to Hippowdon and the like, which would otherwise wall it.
But now that you've mentioned Flygon and Garchomp, I think Haban > Leftovers, because that's what many teams will be using to check it (I think) and it allows Ono to get past them and SWEEP.
btw, I think that DD Ono will probably work best on a hyper offensive team, with its nice resistances and good speed allowing it to switch in after a kill and setup, while its iffy defenses prohibit switching in on very many moves. Just a random thought.
Finally, I've been wondering what to put as the fourth move on a DD set. Along with DD, Dragon Claw, Outrage, and EQ, I've been wrestling with Taunt, Dragon Tail, and Brick Break. BB deals good damage to Skarm (Ono's biggest counter), but it allows Skarm to WW it away. On an all-out 252/252/4 set, Skarm's Brave Bird does ~50% to Ono, so using Brick Break might be the best choice, dealing ~60% to Skarm over two moves before Skarm KOs. However, Taunt allows it to setup on things like Cress while stopping Roar/WW. Dragon Tail also stops Roar/WW and allows Ono to get some extra damage on the opponent's team, but doesn't stop TWave and stuff. I think Taunt is probably best for the SD set, as it's meant to break through walls. But would Taunt or BB work best for DD? BB allows it to get that extra damage on Skarm, but for a set with more defensive EVs, it could just run Taunt and setup more on Skarm. I'm leaning toward Taunt, but I'd like some input.
The reason I used 252 Atk Adamant was because DD Ono does a number to offensive teams without priority and/or a Scarfer (and as you mentioned, Haban helps with Scarfers), due to its great speed after a DD and amazing attack, so I wanted it to deal a bit more damage to Hippowdon and the like, which would otherwise wall it.
But now that you've mentioned Flygon and Garchomp, I think Haban > Leftovers, because that's what many teams will be using to check it (I think) and it allows Ono to get past them and SWEEP.
btw, I think that DD Ono will probably work best on a hyper offensive team, with its nice resistances and good speed allowing it to switch in after a kill and setup, while its iffy defenses prohibit switching in on very many moves. Just a random thought.
Finally, I've been wondering what to put as the fourth move on a DD set. Along with DD, Dragon Claw, Outrage, and EQ, I've been wrestling with Taunt, Dragon Tail, and Brick Break. BB deals good damage to Skarm (Ono's biggest counter), but it allows Skarm to WW it away. On an all-out 252/252/4 set, Skarm's Brave Bird does ~50% to Ono, so using Brick Break might be the best choice, dealing ~60% to Skarm over two moves before Skarm KOs. However, Taunt allows it to setup on things like Cress while stopping Roar/WW. Dragon Tail also stops Roar/WW and allows Ono to get some extra damage on the opponent's team, but doesn't stop TWave and stuff. I think Taunt is probably best for the SD set, as it's meant to break through walls. But would Taunt or BB work best for DD? BB allows it to get that extra damage on Skarm, but for a set with more defensive EVs, it could just run Taunt and setup more on Skarm. I'm leaning toward Taunt, but I'd like some input.
did everyone forget that 90 base defense is quite bulky on physical side ?
and not to mention that 76 base HP is not that horrible. It make a good gyarados partner
IMO. and since his attack is so crazylion huge not maximizing attack is a good option as well!!! i mean 147 base has lik 393 neutral nature and a standard dd mence has 364 with jolly nature. Over 100 EV can be put on other stats. This thing is overhyped but not as horrible as rampardos and rhyperior if you still dont get it yet.
and not to mention that 76 base HP is not that horrible. It make a good gyarados partner
IMO. and since his attack is so crazylion huge not maximizing attack is a good option as well!!! i mean 147 base has lik 393 neutral nature and a standard dd mence has 364 with jolly nature. Over 100 EV can be put on other stats. This thing is overhyped but not as horrible as rampardos and rhyperior if you still dont get it yet.
Actually, Weavile's Ice Shard does 69.6% - 82.6% to it, not an OHKO after SR.
And IMO, Outrage + Dragon Claw should be on the set; one for early-game power (meaning it should be able to switch out to deal some more damage), and one for late-game cleanup. Outrage also helps it terrorize stall teams, but the SD+Taunt set does that better.
And IMO, Outrage + Dragon Claw should be on the set; one for early-game power (meaning it should be able to switch out to deal some more damage), and one for late-game cleanup. Outrage also helps it terrorize stall teams, but the SD+Taunt set does that better.
I think Haban berry is going to be really useful on Onono because his main revenge killers will be other dragons. Say you DD up as they switch into .. Scarfchomp or Scarfgon, then DD again as he outrages and you can then outspeed and ohko
No, it just helps to get a DD set up. Taunt or Outrage would also work as replacements (if you're referring to the DD set in the first post).
Thank you that helps a lot :D, also, any ideas on a good partner for him in battle?
Maybe Shanderaa, to setup on physical sweepers that wall Ono, or to KO pokes revenging Ono by using a Choice Scarf.
These days, you shouldn't forget about Ditto and Technician Breloom.
Basically, special attacks are the way to beat this guy without revenge killing, and not getting hit too hard would also help. Unfortunately, Mold Breaker and 147 base attack means even Skarmory and Shedinja take a beating. So really, revenge killing is the only option.
Weavile's Ice Shard doesn't KO, doing 81.6% - 94.6% factoring in SR with no defense or HP EVs, so unless it uses Life Orb, it won't die from a CB Ice Shard, and it might survive even after Life Orb recoil to KO Weavile. But if it doesn't use Life Orb, it can continue to ruthlessly wreck the opposing team. Also, it can use more EVs in defense/HP to take even less from Ice Shard or Scizor's Bullet Punch.
EDIT: OP, the SD/Taunt set at least deserves a mention as a usable set, being (in theory at least) an excellent wallbreaker.
Ononokusu @Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Adamant, 152 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 60 SpD
-Swords Dance
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Taunt/Brick Break/Substitute
The EVs can be tweaked, I tried to add the right amount of bulk while retaining full attack, and since i assumed this set would be for breaking stall, no speed EVs were used. Outrage has higher power, but locks you in, and at +4, it's not really necessary. However, the opponent could try to send in something with Ice Beam after 1 SD, and so Outrage might be useful then, KOing Crocune after a boost, instead of allowing it to get a Surf in, because even a resisted hit can hurt Ono badly, with its low defenses. Brick Break is used to 2HKO Skarm, which won't be able to WW you out after a Taunt. Substitute can help with status, but is generally better against an offensive team, while this set is meant to wreck stall.
EDIT: OP, the SD/Taunt set at least deserves a mention as a usable set, being (in theory at least) an excellent wallbreaker.
Ononokusu @Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Adamant, 152 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 60 SpD
-Swords Dance
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Earthquake
-Taunt/Brick Break/Substitute
The EVs can be tweaked, I tried to add the right amount of bulk while retaining full attack, and since i assumed this set would be for breaking stall, no speed EVs were used. Outrage has higher power, but locks you in, and at +4, it's not really necessary. However, the opponent could try to send in something with Ice Beam after 1 SD, and so Outrage might be useful then, KOing Crocune after a boost, instead of allowing it to get a Surf in, because even a resisted hit can hurt Ono badly, with its low defenses. Brick Break is used to 2HKO Skarm, which won't be able to WW you out after a Taunt. Substitute can help with status, but is generally better against an offensive team, while this set is meant to wreck stall.
But how does Desukan handle it? Ono can Taunt it, then SD up a couple times and KO. Although it loses Mold Breaker, it still gets an DD/SD or two. And the thing is, after only one DD/SD, it becomes very threatening. And as to its difficulty with setting up, that is true, but Choice Scarfed pokemon locked into a NVE attack or weakened walls will probably switch out, fearing a Choice set, which lets Ono setup.
Anyway, I just noticed Kibago's egg moves and found Endeavor and Counter among them, along with Endure and Reversal. Although Endure+Reversal isn't very good with something that doesn't get fighting STAB, it could be used with Endeavor to weaken a slower wall like Skarmory attempting to pick Ono off. But I'm mostly looking at Counter. Ono is weak to Scizor's Bullet Punch; it receives no Fire moves and takes >60% from it without EVs. Counter could let it KO Scizor attempting to stop a sweep by 2HKOing with Bullet Punch.
EDIT2: Oh, Counter+Endeavor was brought up earlier in the thread. But they could still work.
This thing is disgustingly overrated a choice band outrage fails to 3hko sp. def skarmory with leftovers.
Lucario 1337, and everyone else doing the same thing, can you stop posting rubbish?
So its "overrated" because it can't 3HKO one of the most physically bulky OU's which actually resists its STAB? Name one OU pokemon which with a Band could hit Skarmory for a 3HKO with a NVE physical move.
Sure, it doesn't live up to its initial hype. But, the extra attack does help it compared to Salamence and Garchomp and co. for just getting KO's on numerous pokemon.
So its "overrated" because it can't 3HKO one of the most physically bulky OU's which actually resists its STAB? Name one OU pokemon which with a Band could hit Skarmory for a 3HKO with a NVE physical move.
Sure, it doesn't live up to its initial hype. But, the extra attack does help it compared to Salamence and Garchomp and co. for just getting KO's on numerous pokemon.
Why on earth would Skarmory ever run leftovers with 5 pokemon just dying to switch in and kill the ever loving crap out of it?
Ononokusu can break through Skarmory with sheer force and the only thing Skarmory can do back is phase or go down with Ononokusu with Brave Bird. You don't have the option to go for spikes when you're outsped and taking 40% or more.
Ononokusu can break through Skarmory with sheer force and the only thing Skarmory can do back is phase or go down with Ononokusu with Brave Bird. You don't have the option to go for spikes when you're outsped and taking 40% or more.
Lol, Haters gonna hate.
@Cosmic- You really liking that SD set xD? IMO, I'm still loving Bulky Ono more then glass-cannon Ono, so I can see your set working well regardless of what comes in.
Ono can come in on far more then just Walls, and pokes without neutral or SE attacks (infact, if played correctly, can take mediocre damage against even some common pokemon that hit it for neutral). Any pokemon locked in a move that will knowingly not do enough damage to scare it off becomes setup bait. Bulkier Ono sets, and those that run Haban berry, can prevent counters and checks from doing as much damage to it as the glass-cannon Ono, making for some scary situations to arise. IMO, bulkier sets make for a better living Ono, and can hit just as hard even if investing in minimum Atk EV's.
@Cosmic- You really liking that SD set xD? IMO, I'm still loving Bulky Ono more then glass-cannon Ono, so I can see your set working well regardless of what comes in.
Ono can come in on far more then just Walls, and pokes without neutral or SE attacks (infact, if played correctly, can take mediocre damage against even some common pokemon that hit it for neutral). Any pokemon locked in a move that will knowingly not do enough damage to scare it off becomes setup bait. Bulkier Ono sets, and those that run Haban berry, can prevent counters and checks from doing as much damage to it as the glass-cannon Ono, making for some scary situations to arise. IMO, bulkier sets make for a better living Ono, and can hit just as hard even if investing in minimum Atk EV's.
I like the SD set, but I plan to run a bulkier DD set, like I posted above. In fact, the SD set I just proposed is pretty bulky, although not as bulky as it probably should be; I don't know how much attack Ono needs (considering I haven't played Gen 5 yet), so a few EVs and maybe even the boosting nature could be removed if it lets Ono take a few more hits. However, for the SD set, I would think max attack is required due to its need to pump out huge amounts of damage ASAP. I would like to inquire: why Haban Berry and not Leftovers? You probably answered this question before, but is it just for Choice Scarf Flygon? Because the rest of the team could be tailored to kill Flygon if that was it. Leftovers bring some extra healing that helps Ono a lot.
This would all be so much easier if we could actually play Gen 5...
I've actually listed Leftovers as a viable option on the Bulkier sets, making for some to reach a reasonable amount of recovery with the proper HP EV's. It's totally optional for the bulkier sets, while the more Offensive Ono that lack bulk need the berries, or extra damage since they wont be lasting very long(unless their counters, and checks are out the way).
With Haban berry though, it really just depends if your more afraid of the scarfed-dragons then anything. Without the +2 marker most Ono's will still have problems with it's scarfed-dragon brotheren, so Haban Berry can secure it a possible +2, or net a kill if you think the +2 wont be needed(which usually means that once the scarfed-dragon is gone it'll be able to sweep the remaining team without much trouble). Chomp will still hit hard, but in the case of flygon, it does indeed make it null and void. And with the way the beginning metagame will be, Ono is going to have to watch out for scarfchomp the most, while scarfgon maybe seen since it is still a reliable check to Ono. Although, if you can cover the scarfed dragons just fine, then running other things like Lum Berry(which is nice for those status occasions), and Lefties are good options.
With Haban berry though, it really just depends if your more afraid of the scarfed-dragons then anything. Without the +2 marker most Ono's will still have problems with it's scarfed-dragon brotheren, so Haban Berry can secure it a possible +2, or net a kill if you think the +2 wont be needed(which usually means that once the scarfed-dragon is gone it'll be able to sweep the remaining team without much trouble). Chomp will still hit hard, but in the case of flygon, it does indeed make it null and void. And with the way the beginning metagame will be, Ono is going to have to watch out for scarfchomp the most, while scarfgon maybe seen since it is still a reliable check to Ono. Although, if you can cover the scarfed dragons just fine, then running other things like Lum Berry(which is nice for those status occasions), and Lefties are good options.
I think Bulky DD Ono can be pretty good.Looking at the EVs in Smogon's Damage Calculator, it only takes 156 EVs on a Jolly Ono to equal Jolly DD Salamence with 252 EVs.That gives some extra EVs to play with.
I don't know what the speed benchmarks are yet but I think if you give just enough EVs to speed for your Dragon Dance and dump the rest in defenses.What would be a good speed number for before/after a DD this generation?Roughly the same as Gen 4?
I'm still trying to figure out if Outrage/EQ/DD/Sub or Outrage/EQ/DD/Taunt is better.Sub for priority or Taunt for walls?
I don't know what the speed benchmarks are yet but I think if you give just enough EVs to speed for your Dragon Dance and dump the rest in defenses.What would be a good speed number for before/after a DD this generation?Roughly the same as Gen 4?
I'm still trying to figure out if Outrage/EQ/DD/Sub or Outrage/EQ/DD/Taunt is better.Sub for priority or Taunt for walls?
Ono will be 6 pts short of tieing with Mence if they both have max spe EV's, and spe boosting natures. So 156 EV's wont equal to Jolly DD Mence with max spe EV's.
Well to say the least, Ono's speed isn't the greatest, but it isn't the worse either. 97 base is amazing for most, but he'll need 2 DD's to stay ahead of all the base 100's, and scarfers that are faster then him. With that said, you actually dont have to put to much spe into him since his Atk stat can usually make up for it. That also meens that the bulkier sets can be more resilient in the long run. At best, IMO, you want a minimum of 280 if your running a DD set. Im not to sure on SD sets since I dont bother with it too much, but you can probably get away with less spe, and mroe bulk then Bulky DD Ono's.
I personally don't like Sub as much on Ono do to it's somewhat frailness, but the Taunt varient is usually my line of choice. It'll allow it to be more then just a powerhouse, but give your other teammates some utility against pokemon that may not fear you as much, and attempt to setup on your Ono. Skarmory, and Natto are some to name, which can be countered by other pokemon that partner well alongside Ono (IMO, im starting to look into Shell Break Cloyster as a partner as well. It might allow me to effectively handle the chomp countering factor).