Hearthstone [IRC Channel #Skillstone]

I wonder how long until the clueless Edgelords who somehow STILL think Secret Paladin is anything but a top 3 deck admit they were wrong
 
I was under the impression that Patron was a bad matchup for secret pally, so now that that's gone I don't think there's much doubt who's number one atm.

Gotta say though, when you draw even half decently the deck is really solid, and those perfect hands are basically impossible to beat, but bad draws hurt so much more given how weak the secrets are by themselves. I'm debating cutting the Competitive Spirit / Repentance / Secretkeepers altogether and just adding more minion density in order to keep up with making trades and the like.

edit: yeah deck just went from 50% to 71% win rate like this, so much more consistent.
 
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TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
How are you nerds tracking win rate? Is there a secret stats page I haven't found in client?
 
I'm using Hearthstone Deck Tracker, mainly to keep all my decks in one place. Keeping track of the win rates and matchups is just a plus.
 
We said the aggro variant was bad for the last time.
Actually no not everyone has said this, like we have nerds on the previous page with LOL-worthy quotes like "The hard counter to secret paladin is playing good decks because it's bad." Unless there's some edge filter that I need to turn on to see where he stated that he's talking about the aggro version specifically then I'm pretty sure he's talking about any Mysterious Challenger deck in general

Also I use Track-O-Bot to keep stats personally, it's very simple, intuitive, and non-intrusive.
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
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I highly suggest using a stat-tracker to only track stats as I find that your play generally decreases if you have something that keeps track of what is in your deck. But that could just be me.
 
I highly suggest using a stat-tracker to only track stats as I find that your play generally decreases if you have something that keeps track of what is in your deck. But that could just be me.
Yeah, that's personally why I don't use one, I like to keep my memory sharp because that's what you have to do for a tournament. I also don't think tracking stats is all that relevant when the meta changes almost daily and I don't have a large sample size at 1 hour a day. Besides, I think it's more important to reflect on plays and think theoretically about matchups than it is to track winrate and matchups to make deck choices.
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Also as bit of an aside Shaman has been doing beautifully in this meta that is currently centered around board-dominance. There is literally no class which can best Shaman in a game of minion vs minion (outside of Priest). The new Paladin doesn't hero power, they have a curve, which means that I get incremental value every time I press that button and he does nothing to respond. Warrior was always bad against Shaman, and Druid I'd put in 60/40 in Shaman's favor. The only bad deck to see is tempo Mage with a god-hand and Hunter if you don't draw your one Healing Wave.

Regardless I'm having a blast since I love Shaman (rank 2 right now almost rank 1)
 
Hit legend today with a bghless druid, with the sudden drop in handlock I think it makes a lot of sense. It has a fair matchup against secret pally in that you generally win iff you can catch them on one bad turn or use innervate early. I basically made the switch after I lost to 3 control warriors in a row, and I couldn't play patron anymore. I don't normally like the class, but I guess it's more fun and consistent post TGT since aspirants and savage combatant help fill out the early game. I hadn't played it often, but being a druid's opponent often enough told me what to do.

^Matthew, what list do you use for midrange shaman? Outside of druid it's probably the one class I haven't touched much cause I don't have the certain kind of patience for it, or the knack that lets me fully understand how an opponent will respond when I play passively/what resources need to be conserved. If I get curious about it, I'd at least like to see a list that works so I can have a baseline.
 
Regardless of rank your credibility is literally zero if you think Shaman is a good class to play in a Paladin infested meta
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Regardless of rank your credibility is literally zero if you think Shaman is a good class to play in a Paladin infested meta
If you don't understand why Shaman has a good match-up against Riddlerdin then I think you should go keep being trash and not understand class strength. If you want to go mid-range or control paladin I'd lose with Shaman, and you know why?

This is important, so try to actually pay attention, it's because those decks care more about board and have stronger board than Shaman. Riddlerdin is a tempo deck, wanting a 1-6 curve to go face, but unlike tempo mage it is more focused on creatures which is why Shaman beats it.

But no keep being thinking you're the greatest at this game despite the fact you seem to be absolutely trash instead.

Edit:
Blazade
here's the list:


Your general win-conditions are going to be Thunder Bluff totem spam for just board control to end all board control or Doomhammer + Rockbiter burst.
 
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Wow you're right, Secret Paladin doesn't trade minions ever and doesn't play the exact same 2-4 curve as Midrange Paladin which is where the Shaman will be getting dominated and can't keep up.

Every tool Paladin has is strictly better and acts as a strict counter to everything Shaman is capable of. If Shaman gets god curve and Pally doesn't of course Shaman will win, but with equal curves Shaman loses nearly 100%.

Like you sound like you don't understand how the classes matchup at all or how Secret Paladin functions. It wins by creating overwhelming board position and locking it down with Mysterious Challenger, not charging all face like you claimed. You seem so clueless that I just don't even know where to begin explaining how silly it is to suggest Shaman beats any Midrange Paladin, whether its Secrets or not.
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
If you honestly think that Riddlerdin focus on clearing as much as mid-range then you are either playing Secrets wrong or have taken too many True Silvers to the face to remember what you're doing. My guess is the former.

Edit:

As far as 1-4 curve you're way off base. No mid-range plays secret keeper. There are decks with Chow but it's bad when you finally get to the Top Deck War.

Only few lists run Aldor, and even then in mid-range you're going to get trade value from you with muster.

Shredder is overpowered and almost every deck runs it. 4 mana is king to only one card.

The fact you call secrets mid-range is probably the biggest statement that you don't know what the fuck is going on
 
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Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
My Malygos Shaman loves facing Paladins but I don't think you guys care about that. Everyday midrange Shaman, I'd prefer to be on the Paladin's side because dudes > totems and Muster's a better threat than Storm is an answer. But really it comes down to who's running more neutral cards like Zombie Chow and Haunted Creeper. ;[ And draws them.
 
If you honestly think that Riddlerdin focus on clearing as much as mid-range then you are either playing Secrets wrong or have taken too many True Silvers to the face to remember what you're doing. My guess is the former.

Edit:

As far as 1-4 curve you're way off base. No mid-range plays secret keeper. There are decks with Chow but it's bad when you finally get to the Top Deck War.

Only few lists run Aldor, and even then in mid-range you're going to get trade value from you with muster.

Shredder is overpowered and almost every deck runs it. 4 mana is king to only one card.

The fact you call secrets mid-range is probably the biggest statement that you don't know what the fuck is going on
Do you even know what Midrange means lmao? The best Secret Pally lists are basically Midrange Hunters, the goal is to curve out with your disgustingly efficient plays until you get to broken shit at 6+ (think of Mysterious Challenger as like playing a Highmane). On the way you trade and keep board control because your curve is better than any other deck's curve in the game (you really think Shaman comes out on top when you curve Chow into Minibot into Muster into BoK/Truesilver/Shredder/Cons?). That's how Midrange decks work. Secret Paladin is a Midrange deck. Get this through your head.

And it's funny that you don't seem to have much knowledge of what most lists are running nowadays. What people have seemed to decide on as the best version lately is the 4 secrets version with Chows and Aldor and no Garbagekeepers. There isn't a Midrange Shaman list on the planet that is going to see consistent success against this: http://www.liquidhearth.com/staff/monk/PowerRank/October2015_2/Cross_Secret_Paladin.png

Lists are also starting to gravitate towards cards like Coghammer that will absolutely ruin any Shaman's day. A 2/3 weapon is ridiculous against a class that tries to flood the board with a bunch of 2 hp garbage.
 
I'm running into similar arguments about the construction and strengths & weaknesses of Secret Pally on other boards too. I think there's a pretty large discrepancy of what people think when they hear the term "Secret Paladin," and apparently it means different things to me than other people.

What I think of is the very Midrangey list above that goes very low on Secrets and cuts Divine Favor and Secretkeeper and whatnot in favor of more consistent cards. I find this list to be drastically better than the faster alternatives. There are some people however that think of the Secretkeeper+Divine Favor lists when hearing the term, which has much different matchup strengths & weaknesses that I don't really consider initially in the discussions.

So I apologize for the dismissiveness at first since we clearly view the deck in different ways. It still surprises me that you consider calling it "midrange" means I don't know what's going on...the deck I posted couldn't be described any other way lol. I can agree that the faster versions that go for the Secretkeeper+Favor package are more tempo-y decks that need to get the face damage in.
 
I agree with most of your analyses. The druid 3 drop is disgusting. I've been waiting for entomb for a very long time, really brings out the flexibility of priest and FINALLY allows priest to have a very real fight in the fatigue game. Discover is a cool mechanic, you get a card in the top half of the condition about 7/8 of the time so seems like some of the cards could be playable. Problem is even the top half of cards may not be good enough sometimes, certainly merits a very scrutinized investigation.

I think the arch thief is a little more viable than you make it out to be considering that it competes with Ysera pretty favorably. The 9 mana 7/8 into the board of 3/3s is an amazing end to a bomb train, and the other options exist as really oppressive pressure. The fact that your choice is hidden gives you an edge too. Often in control mirrors Ysera only gives you one or 2 dream cards, without any control, and Nefarian gives you even less of a chance of something playable. This is a clear contender for that slot.

I'm really surprised at how bad the cursed warrior weapon is though. Like wow, that's even worse than poisoned blade.
 
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Like wow, that's even worse than poisoned blade.
Wouldn't go THAT far :P

I feel like part of Ysera's strength is her excellent stat distribution which blows away that of a 7/8. And then you're getting yourself a 10 mana card that you might not want to play at any point since you're only ever playing your 9/7/8 in control mirrors and you'll probably need to keep removing your opponent's stuff every turn rather than ignoring it in favor of a bunch of 3/3s or whatnot. And then there's the fact that control mirrors only happen in like 10% of ladder games nowadays lol :(
 

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