Hidden Power Legends IV/nature combinations

[Aki]

You would; but then it just becomes no fun if we're forced to lower iv's for certain natures and all this other stuff. Not only does it turn off new people, it dosen't make much of a difference. What are we to gain from this?

 

[doppio]

I dunno, but it is a bit frustrating. I had to gimp my Heatran a bit to keep her Hidden Power, but it was not too bad. If you really care it's not such a big deal (I would prefer not to have to deal with this of course).

If we ever have to breed... Well no one has to state about how many Shoddiers will be left after that new addition. =/

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

If you play Shoddy to escape from ingame constraints, then your expectations are too high as Shoddy is supposed to simulate those constraints. (as I understand it)

 

[Aki]

What i'm trying to convey is that it worked just find before this, and is only going to make it more confusing for people. Assuming that this is fully implemented: What good will the battling community get out of it?

 

[tsanth]

What good will the battling community get out of it?

There wouldn't be a distinction between "Shoddy battles" and "real battles," because the inputs and outputs for the two would be the same.

 

[obi]

That's all I know since no one has bothered to reverse engineer the GCN games. Why you'd go through all that trouble just to get accurate numbers for a battle sim is beyond me, it would be easier to restrict legendaries to a slightly lower total IV average.

What would this average be? And in the end, there's still no guarantee that such a Pokemon would be legal.

And we want accurate numbers for a battle sim because "sim" stands for "simulator". I seem to have to define this term every time anything like this comes up, but a battle simulator is supposed to come as close to the real thing as possible. That doesn't mean "Make it exact on some issues, but screw certain arbitrary things!". If we don't try to make it exact, then Shoddy is a failure as a simulator, and I don't want that.

It seems like all these limitations are just going to make things needlessly complicated (when ironically enough, the simplification of rules was one of the arguments to unban previously banned Pokemon).

Simplification of rules is good, yes, but the simplest ruleset is "all Pokemon are level 100 and have 300 all stats and they can only use this one move". This isn't Pokemon, however. We want simple rules, not oversimplified rules.

The problem with releasing the source is that hackers can use this to their advantage.

I think that having an inaccurate simulator and suppressing knowledge is worse.

Undetectable hacks are a scary thing for any breeder because it would probably be the end of trading as we know it.

You're being melodramatic. I can pretty much guarantee that there are already hackers that have created Pokemon that appear legit. In fact, by some accounts, somewhere between 99% and every trader on Wi-Fi uses an Action Replay to clone, fast hatch, etc. This is just a different degree of hacking. Trading would still exist, however.

Even without them proving it to you exactly, it's more accurate to the real metagame for unbreedables to have worse IV's than bred pokes. They would even be justified in just restricting the IV total arbitrarily on legends. Go look through the wifi board and you'll see a couple perfect 31 bred pokes but not a single perfect 31 legend.

The metagame Shoddy attempts to simulate is the allowance of Pokemon that are theoretically obtainable. It's perfectly possible to get a legend with as high stats as a bred Pokemon (although not in every nature).

Well I have no idea what half the people said in this thread but, why take it away from Shoddy? Its just Shoddy, it doesn't matter if you can't get a 31/31/31/31/31/31 legend. That you can only 'really' get a 31/30/31/31/31/31 instead.

"just" Shoddy? Why not allow 35 / 35 / 34 / 37 / 35 / 32 Heatran? It's just Shoddy, it doesn't matter if you can't get it.

I still wish this weren't, like, sensitive data so it could be more open, but that's all the proof I need for the non-Syncable legendaries.

I think it should be entirely open.

Not to mention you're going to have to crack event Pokemon generation for both advance and d/p and XD/Colosseum, none of which has been done yet. Otherwise what's the point of making this "accurate" for a certain subset of legendaries while ignoring the rest?

Yes, we should definitely deny ourselves a minor advantage because a perfect advantage is not yet obtainable.

I know plenty about PID/IV combinations. What I don't get is why it matters in a battle sim, unless you're planning to add a capture/breed/raise feature to shoddy to mimic the rest of the Pokemon game. If people are concerned with having real IV Pokemon, they simply play on a cart- people playing shoddy are not concerned with whether their fake Heatran has a 30 or a 31 in one stat. It's a battle sim, not a sim of the whole Pokemon game.

Shoddy will not have breeding and the like because it's a battle simulator. It simulates what is possible in battle. It's not a complete cartridge simulator. I'd like to emphasize one point. What it simulates is supposed to be possible.

agreed, why don't you guys implement Simple or fix the god damn U-turn instead of sprinting off into a spiky road before you got your shoes on?

Why don't you fix them?

Most shoddy players will not give 2 shits if Heatran has a 30 or a 31 in his attack stat. They know he has 31's everywhere else, as shoddy is an idealized version of Pokemon. If you don't play in game you probably don't know (or care) about PID/IV anyway, but people interested in ripping off actual wifi players in-game will be at the edge of their seats. You are catering to the latter; the former just wants to get rid of Belly Drum/Aqua Jet Azumarill, etc. That has more impact on competitive play than 1 IV point by an order of magnitude.

Actually, Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarill has 0 impact on competitive play because if someone uses it on the ladder, they instantly lose (contact a mod if they refuse to forfeit). If someone uses it in a tournament, they get disqualified. If someone uses an illegal IV spread, that's very difficult (in some cases impossible) to verify, and thus is possible to use right now to get a slight advantage.

I agree that Shoddy should continue being a "simulator" without messing with all the super-fine details like impossible IVs for all the reasons Raikou listed. Like it has been said, getting all the necessary event information and such to make a perfect replica of what's possible ingame is an arduous task that will likely never be completed. So why attempt to be a half-assed version of WiFi when people are perfectly fine with Shoddy being a simulator with ideal conditions? I see no reason why Shoddy and WiFi can't co-exist at both ends of the spectrum with its differences intact.

Because allowing 31 all (with some natures) isn't "ideal" conditions. There are no conditions under which you can get a 31 all Jolly Mewtwo, for example, and therefore it should not be allowed on anything that claims to simulate the battling portion of the game.

you know, I respect the whole breeding community thing as this is what they do for fun. But on the other hand, i really hate this whole arrogance with shoddy trying to match the real game.

How dare a battle simulator attempt to simulate actual battling! The nerve!

It is meant to play event stuff and see what they can actually do.

Thank you user Clear for explaining to Colin what his program is meant to do.

As we can see, Wobbuffet with Tickle is broken beyond belief in OU.

Huh? Who can see that?

In fact, if it weren't for stuff like HP Ice on Zapdos, it cannot match up with higher tier stuff like chomp, it's not really balance, but it still has that fairness that all Pokemon can have 31 IVs.

We should allow Spore on Ninjask so it can match up with higher tier stuff like Skarmory.

Can we just turn this topic around and ban Wobbuffet? It's a perfect solution.

Huh? How does that have anything to do with the topic at hand? "Hmm... A topic on how certain IV combinations are illegal... This must be because of Tickle Wobbuffet!"

The implimentation of this on shoddy was such a waste of time... We got by without this before, we still can get by without it. What is the point of this? All it means is that we don't get certain hidden powers without drawbacks. This is a simulator; not the real thing. Sure, a simulator is ment to simulate, but we're not making Pokemon Internet: Closer to the real thing that the game itself! Next we're gonna be breeding them online...=S

We could "get by" with Spore Snorlax. We could "get by" with Nasty Plot Gengar. We could even "get by" with 999 all stats on everything. That doesn't mean those things should be in a simulator that claims to simulate a Pokemon battle.





I don't get how anyone can be against this and not also be against checking for illegal movesets. Allowing illegal IVs would be even worse than allowing Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarill, or Swords Dance + BP Shedinja, because at least those are easily seen and manually banned.

 

[Raikou]

You're saying you don't care at all about the integrity wifi play- the game shoddy is based off of and that a large percentage of people still prefer to play- for the sake of getting a subset of 10 Pokemon the "correct" IV's if they use hidden power. So you're ripping off $1000 from wifi for a gain of $1 to shoddy. Sounds like people are power tripping rather than being fair.

Cloning Pokemon through a glitch that exists in game is entirely different than using cheat devices, hacking programs and a complex algorithm to rip people off. The latter is far more malicious. If Smogon doesn't endorse wifi, and this is clearly the case based on your posts, please shut down the wifi forum entirely.

 

[AJC]

It is different. It uses one of 4 different seeds at different intervals in the game (for example, the starter eons never have PID's that allow for them to be female) and for every set of IV's there are more possible PID's than in the cart based games.

not true i have a female eevee from XD (its now a jolteon) XD eevee's can be female don't know about colo though

 

[obi]

Cloning Pokemon through a glitch that exists in game is entirely different than using cheat devices, hacking programs and a complex algorithm to rip people off. The latter is far more malicious.

I wasn't referring to the GTS cloning, but AR cloning that people try to claim isn't hacking because it's more convenient.

You're saying you don't care at all about the integrity wifi play- the game shoddy is based off of and that a large percentage of people still prefer to play- for the sake of getting a subset of 10 Pokemon the "correct" IV's if they use hidden power. So you're ripping off $1000 from wifi for a gain of $1 to shoddy. Sounds like people are power tripping rather than being fair.

Huh?

I also don't see how wanting to make Shoddybattle accurate is power tripping.

If Smogon doesn't endorse wifi, and this is clearly the case based on your posts, please shut down the wifi forum entirely.

Would you mind explaining why this is clearly the case based on my posts? I'm afraid I don't follow.

 

[Raikou]

You want to get shoddy accurate by changing the stats of legendaries by a few points, which has almost no bearing on a battle at all. (You're not going to lose because your Heatran had 20 in attack instead of 30 because it was already modest, you're making excuses for losing.)

To do so you must use an algorithm which is used for pAC, thus making an anti-cheat program integral to wifi players worthless. What's the point of wifi when everyone can just hack their own perfect shit and get away with it, something they can't do now? It makes trading pointless, which devalues in game play.

Just because you want to play shoddy all day doesn't mean a lot of people prefer the actual game shoddy is based on, but you've already made the value judgment that wifi players can fuck off because shoddy is far more important.

 

[obi]

I believe in freedom of information.

I've won and lost games on the basis of 1 point of HP, so this can have a pretty big impact.

 

[OmegaX]

I don't get how anyone can be against this and not also be against checking for illegal movesets. Allowing illegal IVs would be even worse than allowing Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarill, or Swords Dance + BP Shedinja, because at least those are easily seen and manually banned.

So are you saying that having "incorrect" IVs is more game breaking that having illegal movesets?
"Damn, I was just beaten by a Heatran that had 1 more point in HP that it should have, nevermind that it used Aura Sphere and Roar of Time" and before you ridicule me because I selected 2 random moves that may or may not make Heatran ridiculously powerful that was just an absurd example but you should get the idea.
The "advantage" that is gained by implementing checking for possible IVs is negligible because it has been always assumed that the battlers in simulators always go for the maximum IVs available so I don't see what is gained by banning certain IV spreads.
On the other hand the wifi battlers get screwed by having a new wave of hackers with more information about making undetectable hacks, making all the others that take their time breeding even more vulnerable to scams.
If what was said above isn't being against' wifi battling I don't know what is, anyway these post are already meaningless because the source code is already available for everybody to see, the wifi forum might as well be closed.

 

[Raikou]

I believe in freedom of information.

That's nice. Some people believe in god and some don't. Both sides think they're right.

That's just a subjective, cop-out argument to get around everything that's been said. Just shut down the wifi forum so there's no confusion about where you stand on it.

 

[OmegaX]

That's nice. Some people believe in god and some don't. Both sides think they're right.

That's just a subjective, cop-out argument to get around everything that's been said. Just shut down the wifi forum so there's no confusion about where you stand on it.

Might as well cancel the release the WFTC unless it comes with a hack detector program bundled with it (not gonna happen, and even if it does happen the source code would be available making it completely worthless).

 

[obi]

Quit with the Chicken Little "the sky is falling" garbage. There are already people with the ability to make undetectable hacks and Wi-Fi hasn't closed.

Quit with the GGFan "Smogon says this" stuff, too. I'm one user. Smogon isn't some sort of monolithic "all moderators / admins are the same!" thing.

Yes, ultimately I do give a subjective argument if you ask "why" long enough. However, that's impossible to avoid. I say one of my fundamental values is freedom of information. You imply one of yours is minimizing the number of people capable of making an undetectable hack. The difference is that I come out and state my assumptions and underlying values so no one is operating under any false pretenses as to what I believe, where people have to imply them from what you say. It's impossible to make any sort of objective statement about how things should be, which is what this argument is about.

Quit with the "Shoddybattle is so arrogant to simulate the game!". That's just an entitlement mentality. You aren't entitled to have people keep information about the game secret.

And finally, quit acting like you know exactly what the Wi-Fi Trade Center will and will not have if you aren't involved in its programming / planning.

 

[Jenigmat]

I've read this thread for a bit and I understand both sides of the argument, but banning illegal iv's seems to make a lot of sense. I've had numerous matches where both wins and losses have been caused by either a sub par defense iv or a few points of health. I'm sure many people have as well. Indeed, many ev spreads are based around just one or two stat points, making the difference between a OHKO and survival. So you can't say that illegal iv's don't matter.

Plus illegal iv's are harder to manage, as Obi has said. If I were on Wifi, I wouldn't ever know if the thing I'm up against has hacked iv's, and this can indeed affect the game. When people are battling on Wifi, people don't like battling against people who have pokemon with hacked iv's, correct? I don't see how Shoddy is any different.

 

[tsanth]

Shoddy will not have breeding and the like because it's a battle simulator. It simulates what is possible in battle. It's not a complete cartridge simulator. I'd like to emphasize one point. What it simulates is supposed to be possible.

Properly detecting illegal movesets would require implementing breeding mechanics, complete with exceptions from ADV, XD, etc. In that sense, incorporating such a detector implies simulating breeding.

 

[the_artic_one]

Actually it only implies simulating the rules imposed by breeding which is not the same as the simulating the actual process of breeding.

 

[c l e a r]

okay, so what I see so far from everyone is this.

It's pretty much general knowledge that Colin's decisions are affected from a certain group of people in smogon, but that's besides the point; After all, you are testing. I just got to ask you guys that was it a problem before? Do people abuse WishBliss back in Netbattle or even now to a point where it's unplayable? I don't think so, and neither did X-Speed Linoone or Celebi (remember, it cannot be obtained until late ADV era in Europe and Americas).

I know what are you thinking at this point, you're thinking: This is a TOTALLY different game! and you are right, it is a different game, but it is under the same mechanics that shares alot of his ADV predecessors. The EV engine remains intact, the IV engine remain intact, the nature remain intact, the only glaring difference is some abilities and some moves. So, all it boils down to is that does those moves break the game, improve it, or in most cases, make that Pokemon useful.

Off the top of my head, I can see the only things that are useful are these, and I am repeating some stuff from before, and I'm mixing some XD stuff and HP together as well.

- X-Speed Lioone
- Baton Pass/ Metal Sound Zapdos with HP Ice/Grass
- Heal Bell Articuno (lol)
- WishBliss
- Tickle Wobbuffet
- Movie Darkrai

Looking at them, it doesn't seem like any of them were problems. X-Speed actually MAKES Linoone useful. BPing Zapdos doesn't tear apart teams in this hyper offensive metagame. Wishbliss is used and encourages more skilled game play. Darkrai is well... Darkrai and sitting in emo space having tea. All it boils down to now is the tickle Wobbuffet, as we all know from Jump's thread, is just broken to say the least.

I think it's really, really unfair for us to implement this onto other Pokemon, just because one simple Blue Blob with 1 more move add to his whooping moveset of 7, although 1 being completely useless. Why should those other Pokemon suffer these consequences just because one Pokemon is causing trouble with that extra move?

 

[the_artic_one]

Tickle wobba had nothing to do with this at all.

 

[tsanth]

Actually it only implies simulating the rules imposed by breeding which is not the same as the simulating the actual process of breeding.

I believe I misstated my reasoning. Let me try again:

1) I assume that the intent of the Shoddy programmers is to move Shoddy to more closely simulate the game mechanics. Having the PV/IV checker also check for egg PV/IV sets brings it closer to this goal.

2) I assume that detecting illegal movesets in Shoddy is desirable, in part because it would allow automated kicking of users of illegal movesets.

3) Having a moveset checker (2) in concert with a PV/IV checker (1) which supports egg PV/IV checking simulates everything that, to my knowledge, is required for simulating breeding.

You're right that simulating the rules imposed by breeding is sufficient; what I was intending to get across was that imposing those rules in all aspects is effectively the same as implementing breeding, because all the logic for both PV/IV generation and moveset generation is already there.

...such is what I assume from how I would implement it, anyway. I fully admit that there may exist a method for implementing both (1) and (2) which allows constraint checking without actually implementing the logic required to simulate breeding.

YMMV.

 

[Syberia]

You don't need an "egg" PID/IV checker. Any set of IVs for an egg is possible in every nature.

 

[Lorak]

not true i have a female eevee from XD (its now a jolteon) XD eevee's can be female don't know about colo though

Seconding, and he does mean the starter 'Eons (i.e. Espeon and Umbreon).

 

[Stall]

So are you saying that having "incorrect" IVs is more game breaking that having illegal movesets?

Infinitely more so, yes.

"Damn, I was just beaten by a Heatran that had 1 more point in HP that it should have, nevermind that it used Aura Sphere and Roar of Time"

If your Heatran uses Roar of Time, I will get you disqualified. Same with Drum+Aqua Jet Azumaril.
If my Heatran has Max IVs, I will never be disqualified, since no one will ever find out.

 

[tsanth]

You don't need an "egg" PID/IV checker. Any set of IVs for an egg is possible in every nature.

The implication from pAC is that checking eggs for legit-ness is not possible precisely because of that. The post from the_artic_one:

Eggs are a bit more complicated but it's been figured out.

-implies that egg checking is now possible if given both parent PV/IV sets (or at least, that's how I'm reading it).

Corrections are always welcome.