Hidden Power Legends IV/nature combinations

[the_artic_one]

Every combination of nature and IV's with bred pokes is indeed possible, however, every combination of PID, nature, and IV's is not.

That's why there's no need for shoddy to check bred pokes, it can just assume the correct PID making everything possible.

 

[Syberia]

Well of course not every PID will produce a 31/31/31/31/31/31 for a bred pokemon in the correct nature, that goes without saying. However, if Shoddy is supposed to be a best-case scenario, then all that matters is that it is possible for one instance of it to exist.

 

[OmegaX]

If your Heatran uses Roar of Time, I will get you disqualified. Same with Drum+Aqua Jet Azumaril.
If my Heatran has Max IVs, I will never be disqualified, since no one will ever find out.

The thing is that it only gets your disqualified if:
a) shoddy knows that the move combination is illegal and disallows selecting it.
b) if shoddy isn't aware that the moveset is illegal the only other option is that the opponent knows it is illegal and complains about it.

A Heatran with Roar of time is something obvious to detect but can you tell me that every player on Shoddy knows the entire list of illegal move combinations? or that Shoddy is programmed to detect every illegal move combination? didn't think so. Now tell me one thing, why should you be disqualified for having max IVs on a battle simulator? Did NetBattle in the ADV generation disqualify you for it?
What the normal battle sim player expects of the battle simulator is entirely different from the wifi player, otherwise everybody would play wifi or PBR.

If you really think that one point in a random stat is gonna make such a huge difference that the player that beat you on a battle deserves to be disqualified for it then you must not be a very good player at all. From what I see skill and luck (hax) play a more important role on battling that accurately simulating something that is not game breaking at all, and don't be like Obi and start saying "then make every pokemon have 35 IV in every stat", please don't take the easy route of ridiculing those who disagree with you and make stupid proposals like that.

In the end what is done is done, nobody is going to change Obi's opinions and we don't need to because the harm was already made so is up to the wifi players to decide what to do from now on. I pity the wifi mods because they have their hands full with all the mess that hackers cause now, I can't imagine how it is gonna be from now on.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

OK, wait. So the Shoddy source code is going to have extensive information about PIDs beyond the "best possible" IV spreads with respect to Hidden Power legendaries? Just want to make sure we're on the same page, since Syberia's reply to my first post implied otherwise and if that's true, this is a rather moot argument IMO.

But if this addition is going to jeopardize the WiFi metagame/economy, I have to be against it. The whole entitlement/arrogance issue is a two-way street so that's a dead end in this argument. But looking at the big picture, I don't see how a marginal benefit to Shoddy is worth potentially screwing up the WiFi arena. Saying "omg I lost because mi att4ck left u w/ 1 HP when ur defense shouldn't be 31 IVs!1" is as weak as saying you lost due to random fluctuations in the damage formula. It happens. In the grand scheme of things, the minor adjustment on these IVs will mean little for Shoddy. Most importantly, everybody on Shoddy is playing with the same Pokemon, so either way, the game is balanced for both sides.

On the other hand, the effect on the WiFi environment is a major wild-card for one important reason. Nobody knows for sure exactly how many hacked legendaries are floating around at this time. I personally do not know the efficacy of pAc (I've heard it's a rather lame way to check but I've also heard that most hackers hack breed-able Pokemon specifically because of pAc) or whether most hackers have beaten it yet. But it's pretty much a given that when such hacker-friendly info is released to the public, there will be more people to take advantage of it to scam other people. The question of how much of an increase is definitely debatable. However, I don't see enough benefit from the Shoddy end to justify the potential risk of totally fucking up the WiFi arena. For Shoddy, this change is about "touching" up some minor imperfections. For Wifi, this change could turn the balance of everything upside down.

Note: I didn't comment on quick hatch, cloning, etc. because the focal point of this is hacking legendaries, not other 'questionable' hacks.

Plus illegal iv's are harder to manage, as Obi has said. If I were on Wifi, I wouldn't ever know if the thing I'm up against has hacked iv's, and this can indeed affect the game. When people are battling on Wifi, people don't like battling against people who have pokemon with hacked iv's, correct? I don't see how Shoddy is any different.

Here's the major difference: Shoddy is an equal playing field where everybody has the capability to have perfect, ideal IVs. And up until this change, everybody on Shoddy expected everybody else to use said IVs.

WiFi, on the other hand, has no such equalizer. A hacker on WiFi has a distinct edge over a normal player.

Again, I have no problems with the Shoddy changes as long as it doesn't affect WiFi negatively. Having depressed IVs for legendaries on Shoddy evokes a "So, what?" response from me.

 

[the_artic_one]

OK, wait. So the Shoddy source code is going to have extensive information about PIDs beyond the "best possible" IV spreads with respect to Hidden Power legendaries? Just want to make sure we're on the same page, since Syberia's reply to my first post implied otherwise and if that's true, this is a rather moot argument IMO.

Don't worry I don't think going to have that much, just which natures correspond to which IV's (no PIDs will be revealed).

For the most part, anyone who could figure out the rest from that probably could have figured it out on their own.

 

[gorm]

Now tell me one thing, why should you be disqualified for having max IVs on a battle simulator?

they are not possible to acheive, like illegal mses.


what is hard to understand here.

everyone complaining about this saying it's not a big deal, dont complain about it, it's not a big deal

everyone complaining about this because other things need to be fixed and are more important, code your own sim/start your own server and fix them yourself


this topic is really pissing me off lol.

 

[umbarsc]

a lot of stuff

The best answer for all of your rhetorics is this: it's already there. Why fix what's broken? The exceptions to that are when potential gain could be made, but I really don't see any potential gain from this. Do you?

Also, I can see you're a person of principle. This is what must be followed, this must be obeyed. Having a firm and unwavering belief in something is never good, because the negative consequences can often outweigh the negative consequence of going against protocol. No matter how solid it may seem, you simply can't apply it to every possible situation.

Your comments of "what if we gave every pokemon 999 stats" and similar seems to imply that we need a logic that we always uphold. Why can't we just view every problem that comes up and make the most sense of it?

 

[Kamikaze Korean]

People are seriously freaking out over this. I don't really feel like repeating everything said, so I'll try to keep my post short.

Those of you saying that a single point makes no difference should take another look. The obvious example is speed, which is often carefully considered. Moving those 4 EVs could make a difference in other areas. Some Pokemon do consider each point after all. Off the top of my head, I recall Arceus and Gyarados having very specific spreads. While the difference might not show up that often, it will show up more often than the zero times before.

Second, it is a simulator. As was said, it should simulate as closely as can be managed.

Either way, it's free entertainment. I won't complain as long as I can still play.

 

[Stall]

The thing is that it only gets your disqualified if:
a) shoddy knows that the move combination is illegal and disallows selecting it.
b) if shoddy isn't aware that the moveset is illegal the only other option is that the opponent knows it is illegal and complains about it.

A) currently doesn't apply. B) should be taken for granted as true.

A Heatran with Roar of time is something obvious to detect but can you tell me that every player on Shoddy knows the entire list of illegal move combinations?

As I alluded to above, it fully the responsibility of the player to know exactly what every Pokemon is capable of.

or that Shoddy is programmed to detect every illegal move combination?

Again, it is your responsibility to ensure your opponent isn't cheating.

Now tell me one thing, why should you be disqualified for having max IVs on a battle simulator?

You know, that's an amazing point. It can't possibly be because a simulator, by definition, accurately simulates the game as much a possible...

Did NetBattle in the ADV generation disqualify you for it?

If NetBattle let everyone learn Spore, should Shoddy copy that?

What the normal battle sim player expects of the battle simulator is entirely different from the wifi player, otherwise everybody would play wifi or PBR.

I disagree. If both DS' and Pokemon Diamond were free, and all Pokemon had ideal natures/IVs/EVs, I don't think there would be a need for Shoddy. The majority of Shoddy players likely don't have the time/money to achieve the above conditions.

If you really think that one point in a random stat is gonna make such a huge difference that the player that beat you on a battle deserves to be disqualified for it then you must not be a very good player at all.

They won in Shoddy when they would have lost over WiFi. That should not be tolerated by a simulator.

From what I see

Keeping in mind you seem to be rather uninformed about the topic...

skill and luck (hax) play a more important role on battling that accurately simulating something that is not game breaking at all,

That is irrelevant. Anything that would influence a WiFi battle should influence a simulator battle, by definition.

and don't be like Obi and start saying "then make every pokemon have 35 IV in every stat", please don't take the easy route of ridiculing those who disagree with you and make stupid proposals like that.

I happen to respect Obi quite a bit, so I don't appreciate you taking a shot at him. I also happen to agree 100% with what he said, surely if you don't mind using extra IVs to get your Heatran to 31/31/31/31/31/31, I can use extra IVs to get a 32/33/31/32/31/34 Garchomp.

In the end what is done is done, nobody is going to change Obi's opinions and we don't need to because the harm was already made so is up to the wifi players to decide what to do from now on. I pity the wifi mods because they have their hands full with all the mess that hackers cause now, I can't imagine how it is gonna be from now on.

Again, let's not attack Obi, ok? I'm not sure that there was much, if any, damage done, either...

 

[Lorak]

I'm 25% sure that anyone who uses Roar of Time on a Heatran has terminal brain cancer, not long to live, and should be allowed to get away with it.

 

[merubin]

What the normal battle sim player expects of the battle simulator is entirely different from the wifi player, otherwise everybody would play wifi or PBR.

There are so many things wrong with the insinuations here I hardly know where to start. There are many reasons one might use ShoddyBattle over D/P or PBR while still preferring accuracy to in-game subjects like possible IVs on legendaries. For instance, the ability to quickly test team variations, the large pool of potential battlers without needing friend codes, the built-in ladder system . . . et cetera. Now, certainly these don't disprove the very literal interpretation of your statement, but your intended point is obvious and misguided.

Also, on a completely different note but not different enough to justify a separate post:
There is definitely gathering of illegal movesets for the eventual purposes of restricting them in Shoddy. It's retarded to think we should wait to be able to fix absolutely everything at once and roll it out in one giant patch. That the illegal movesets aren't forcibly banned yet via the program is no good reason at all to have not rolled out this patch correcting possible legendary IVs.

 

[AJC]

this thread and 80% of its posts are a eye sore it gotten so off topic :(

 

[obi]

Did NetBattle in the ADV generation disqualify you for it?

Netbattle had Substitute blocking Rapid Spin's effects, and it shouldn't have. Netbattle's damage calculator was often off by several % (although to my knowledge, the actual battles gave proper damage...). Netbattle apparently had sleep last the wrong length.

There are many flaws with Netbattle. I don't see why Shoddybattle should replicate those flaws rather than fix them.

If you really think that one point in a random stat is gonna make such a huge difference that the player that beat you on a battle deserves to be disqualified for it then you must not be a very good player at all.

I'm sorry for being such a poor player. As I said earlier, I've won and lost battles on the basis of 1 HP. Games often come down to who wins a Speed tie.

From what I see skill and luck (hax) play a more important role on battling

Just because something else might be more important doesn't mean this is not important at all.

that accurately simulating something that is not game breaking at all,

It is highly unlikely that the fact that Lagging Tail Pokemon go after Stall Pokemon will influence any competitive battle, but when that item and ability are implemented, they will be done so properly. This is because the primary goal of a simulator is accuracy.

and don't be like Obi and start saying "then make every pokemon have 35 IV in every stat", please don't take the easy route of ridiculing those who disagree with you and make stupid proposals like that.

I wasn't ridiculing, I was giving my counterargument (to which no one has yet responded). If you are OK with allowing some Pokemon to have higher stats than is legally possible, why them and not others? You want your Azelf to have 31 all and Jolly? Then let my Garchomp have 33 all. It makes just as much sense.

OK, wait. So the Shoddy source code is going to have extensive information about PIDs beyond the "best possible" IV spreads with respect to Hidden Power legendaries?

The PID is a purely in-game construct. All that Shoddy has (or will have, to my knowledge) is combinations of IVs and natures.

The best answer for all of your rhetorics is this: it's already there. Why fix what's broken? The exceptions to that are when potential gain could be made, but I really don't see any potential gain from this. Do you?

Having an accurate simulator is the ultimate goal.

Also, I can see you're a person of principle. This is what must be followed, this must be obeyed. Having a firm and unwavering belief in something is never good, because the negative consequences can often outweigh the negative consequence of going against protocol. No matter how solid it may seem, you simply can't apply it to every possible situation.

Your comments of "what if we gave every pokemon 999 stats" and similar seems to imply that we need a logic that we always uphold. Why can't we just view every problem that comes up and make the most sense of it?

I don't see why demanding consistency and logic is a bad thing.

I'm 25% sure that anyone who uses Roar of Time on a Heatran has terminal brain cancer, not long to live, and should be allowed to get away with it.

lol

 

[darkie]

Off the top of my head, I recall Arceus and Gyarados having very specific spreads.

Gyarados isn't even affected (since you can breed it), and according to the game/Nintendo, Arceus does not exist yet.

 

[spiderweb]

What i need to HP ground and Rash or Mild?

 

[umbarsc]

Having an accurate simulator is the ultimate goal.

I don't see why accuracy for the sake of accuracy should be encouraged. The cons of this new implementation include: inconvenience in team-building. It's very difficult to use Hidden Powers with this new IV restrains, and I just lost a battle because I HP Ice was changed to HP Rock. Loading old teams is more inconvenient because you have to change the IVs, and again you have to back and experiment if you have Hidden Powers.

I feel that the cons of this outweigh the pro of sticking to protocol.

Also, it's debatable that accuracy is the ultimate goal. I feel that simplicity, diversity, and convenience are equally important on a battle simulator.

I don't see why demanding consistency and logic is a bad thing.

It's not, but only demanding a single logic to apply to everything is.

 

[gorm]

It's very difficult to use Hidden Powers with this new IV restrains, and I just lost a battle because I HP Ice was changed to HP Rock.

hey did you check the first post in the goddam thread lol

I feel that simplicity, diversity, and convenience are equally important on a battle simulator.

sounds like you should code your own !

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

If something is illegal in the real thing, should a simulator allow it? If something in reality is impossible, should it become possible in a simulation?

Seriously, illegal move combinations are banned and there's little uproar about them, but when an illegal IV/nature combination is banned there's five pages of argument about it? My mind can't grasp that.

I fail to see how banning illegal IVs/natures is different from banning illegal movesets. Last I checked, Shoddy, by design, ends up being the "optimal" WiFi environment. If it's not possible over WiFi, why should it be possible on Shoddy?

Again, it should be emphasized that you're expecting too much if you want Shoddy to escape the constraints (in terms of end results) of ingame Pokemon.



Oh, and if you don't like the current standard Shoddy environment, the best thing I can tell you to do is to host your own modded server.

 

[alive]

heres what ive found for hasty nature, the iv's might not be the best possible but at least theres not too much damage on Spd and Sp. Att

hasty-

hp(fire)- 31/30/31/30/30/3
hp(flying)- 31/31/31/30/30/18
hp(water)- 27/31/31/30/30/31
hp(grass)- 31/18/31/31/30/31
hp(electric)- 31/27/23/31/30/31
hp(dragon)- 31/31/30/31/31/31
hp(ice)- 31/30/26/31/31/31
hp(fighting)- 31/31/30/30/30/22
hp(flying)- 31/31/19/30/30/30
hp(poison)- 31/31/22/31/30/30
hp(ground)- 31/31/31/31/30/22
hp(psychic)- 31/30/23/30/31/31
hp(bug)- 31/31/23/30/31/30
hp(rock)- 31/31/22/30/31/30
hp(ghost)- 31/31/2/31/31/30
hp(steel)- 31/31/31/31/31/30
hp(dark)- 31/31/19/31/31/31

i didnt include hp(normal) because i dont think anyone uses those.
if i decide to do another nature then ill post it, but for now im tired.

also, will this effect pokemon like metagross who cannot breed?

 

[gorm]

metagross can breed with ditto o_o;

 

[alive]

metagross can breed with ditto o_o;

hmm... guess i never thought about that.

 

[X-Act]

After further research from my part on this, this thread's purpose in the original post will not hold anymore. So I might as well lock it and let ColinJF/AA/Obi/whoever cares post a new one with the correct information.