Hidden Type

Your avatar really does reflect your personality.
I'm not saying bisharp doesn't run fire punch, I'm saying that it always runs Earthquake. It can also run Iron head so no, it's not a good a check. There are better ones, and that's why I disagree with ranking him B.

Scyther does the same thing Dragonite does, other then that Dragonite boosts speed and attack.

Scyther isn't even bulkier than it, so why are you using it besides different coverage? If you really want bug + flying coverage with bulk use Mega Scizor. If you're actually really, really nitpicky and want a bulky steel + flying + bug type pokemon feel free, but that's why it's D rank.

0 Atk Mew Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 28-33 (8.6 - 10.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

0 Atk Mew Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 64-76 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

I will not stop using Dragonite switch in as an argument. Dragonite in HT is comparable to Primal groudon in Ubers, and a pokemons viability takes Groudon into account now, why shouldn't Dragonite?

It's not going to stay in because it can switch out, Bronzong isn't difficult to deal with and it Dragonite is only able to 3HKO. I wouldn't. Basically: I wouldn't risk Thunderwave/toxic or something else.
I understand that you meant Dragonite and not Bisharp in the part I bolded, but you really should check these things before you post and that what your saying it is fact. As there have been many similar mistakes in the past. Iron Head doesn't 2HKO Mega Abomasnow, as I run HP EVs over Spe as the Spe EVs really aren't worth it on something that slow, but I guess I should have specified that so that's my bad. Regardless, with my Steel Abomasnow set it is a strong check to every Dragonite that doesn't run Fire Punch. It is also has Protect to scout for Fire Punches as they are far more common than you give them credit for. Hence, it is a good Dragonite check.

You seem to be arguing against something to haven't actually read or understood again as I clearly stated that Scyther is more comparable to the Gliscor than Dragonite. Just because they both have a set up move doesn't make them instantly the same. Dragonite is mostly used as a direct win con and set up sweeper. Scyther and SD Gliscor are bulky pivots that can absorb hits, Knock Off items, and threaten to set up if the opponent gives them room. Scyther is in fact bulkier than Dragonite because A. Multiscale doesn't last forever, it only applies if Dragonite is full health. B. Scyther runs Eviolite to fulfill its role as its CB set is piss weak in OU. C. Scyther is more inclined to actually invest is
Defenses, as its boosts fast enough to not need investment, and has no need of immediate power.

'It's not going to stay in because it can switch out' is not an argument because we are talking about Bronzong! Why would a Dragonite switch out from a Bronzong? Bronzong is the biggest set up bait. Wtf is a Bronzong going to do to a Steel Dragonite? Other than of course Trick a Flame Orb, but Dragonite doesn't know its going to Trick a Flame Orb because it is a lure set! The only reason I revealed it was because it was inconsistant, as many times Dragonite is saved till towards the end, and given that it has no reliable recovery, Bronzong has either been worn down too much, or it has been dead weight all game. A lot of teams don't even run Steel D-Nite and the strat doesn't work half as well on other Dragon dancers like Gatr and Gyarados as they hit it super effectively with STAB. Fire Bronzong isn't good, it didn't work well, but D-Nite has no reason to switch. Toxic! You said Dragonite could be threatened by a Bronzong's Toxic!

Please read what people say and think before you post in future.

EDIT: Just noticed the Avatar slur at the beginning. What made that called for? That was directly personal and if you want it to be that way I would much rather you Private Message me as there is no need to flood the thread with salt again like earlier with the 'get. rekt' business and all that.
 
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Landorus for S rank. It sets up rocks while beating every defogger 1v1, it crushes balance and stall, and 2hkos the meta with its Gravity set. It's just fast enough to outpace a lot of offensive threats and revenge kill them, and the set it runs changes what walls it. A quick example is Ground Togekiss, who can't be 2hko'd by a Gravity set, but is setup fodder for a Calm Mind set. The thing is, Landorus can even run Calm Mind and Gravity because very few things aren't hit neutrally by Ground/Poison coverage under Gravity. Offense will have things to outspeed base 101, but not if Lando gets up a Rock Polish.

Landorus can get plenty of opportunities to set up by coming in on your pivot, on your defogger, or on a crippled mon. With good prediction you can set up on things like Grass Manaphy and Electric Gardevoir as you force them out, or OHKO them if they stay in. It's just really really good.
 
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Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I understand that you meant Dragonite and not Bisharp in the part I bolded, but you really should check these things before you post and that what your saying it is fact. As there have been many similar mistakes in the past. Iron Head doesn't 2HKO Mega Abomasnow, as I run HP EVs over Spe as the Spe EVs really aren't worth it on something that slow, but I guess I should have specified that so that's my bad. Regardless, with my Steel Abomasnow set it is a strong check to every Dragonite that doesn't run Fire Punch. It is also has Protect to scout for Fire Punches as they are far more common than you give them credit for. Hence, it is a good Dragonite check.

You seem to be arguing against something to haven't actually read or understood again as I clearly stated that Scyther is more comparable to the Gliscor than Dragonite. Just because they both have a set up move doesn't make them instantly the same. Dragonite is mostly used as a direct win con and set up sweeper. Scyther and SD Gliscor are bulky pivots that can absorb hits, Knock Off items, and threaten to set up if the opponent gives them room. Scyther is in fact bulkier than Dragonite because A. Multiscale doesn't last forever, it only applies if Dragonite is full health. B. Scyther runs Eviolite to fulfill its role as its CB set is piss weak in OU. C. Scyther is more inclined to actually invest is
Defenses, as its boosts fast enough to not need investment, and has no need of immediate power.

'It's not going to stay in because it can switch out' is not an argument because we are talking about Bronzong! Why would a Dragonite switch out from a Bronzong? Bronzong is the biggest set up bait. Wtf is a Bronzong going to do to a Steel Dragonite? Other than of course Trick a Flame Orb, but Dragonite doesn't know its going to Trick a Flame Orb because it is a lure set! The only reason I revealed it was because it was inconsistant, as many times Dragonite is saved till towards the end, and given that it has no reliable recovery, Bronzong has either been worn down too much, or it has been dead weight all game. A lot of teams don't even run Steel D-Nite and the strat doesn't work half as well on other Dragon dancers like Gatr and Gyarados as they hit it super effectively with STAB. Fire Bronzong isn't good, it didn't work well, but D-Nite has no reason to switch. Toxic! You said Dragonite could be threatened by a Bronzong's Toxic!

Please read what people say and think before you post in future.

EDIT: Just noticed the Avatar slur at the beginning. What made that called for? That was directly personal and if you want it to be that way I would much rather you Private Message me as there is no need to flood the thread with salt again like earlier with the 'get. rekt' business and all that.
If you understand what I'm saying why do you need to write a paragraph about it? I'm writing this quickly while I'm at school. It basically makes it seem like "I don't know how to dispute your arguments, instead of agreeing like an adult I'll just point out his grammar mistakes" -.-"
It's going to continue happening, if you understand what I'm saying FINE. It's fine. If you don't, PM me or tell me to fix it and I'll do it, don't use it to back up your argument. The Avatar slur was because of your
"For someone who has peaked top of the ladder so many times you really do say some stupid things." Yeah. Fuck off with that, you're basically getting really personal with your arguments and that's not how it works. We're done with that.

1. Alright, It's iffy, and it's not a good a check. But fine, I'll give you that it's a check... What else? It's a slow, slightly above average powered pokemon with shitty bulky(Mainly because of typing). It's not going to do work in a metagame mainly filled with pokemon with steel typing. Tell me what role it fills. C rank IMO, shitty pokemon.

2. Use Mega Scizor then, you're acting super childish here. You're actively ignoring parts of my comments just so I have to repeat myself. Scyther is bad, if you're already using offensive scizor & offensive Dnite then I can see using Defensive Pivot Scyther. it's also weak to rocks so, not a very good pivot.

3. And then it has roost and sets up to +6
+6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 129-152 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
If you understand what I'm saying why do you need to write a paragraph about it? I'm writing this quickly while I'm at school. It basically makes it seem like "I don't know how to dispute your arguments, instead of agreeing like an adult I'll just point out his grammar mistakes" -.-"
It's going to continue happening, if you understand what I'm saying FINE. It's fine. If you don't, PM me or tell me to fix it and I'll do it, don't use it to back up your argument. The Avatar slur was because of your
"For someone who has peaked top of the ladder so many times you really do say some stupid things." Yeah. Fuck off with that, you're basically getting really personal with your arguments and that's not how it works. We're done with that.
Isa Simple didn't call you a moron, he said you say dumb things, and that it's strange given how good on ladder you seem to be.

You in turn implied that he is retarded, entirely because you were mad at him.

Please don't pretend these are equivalent. Isa Simple shouldn't have said that, but you escalated quite quickly.

1. Alright, It's iffy, and it's not a good a check. But fine, I'll give you that it's a check... What else? It's a slow, slightly above average powered pokemon with shitty bulky(Mainly because of typing). It's not going to do work in a metagame mainly filled with pokemon with steel typing. Tell me what role it fills. C rank IMO, shitty pokemon.
Gyarados isn't Steel.

Manaphy isn't Steel.

Skarmory is Steel but is usually neutral to Ice.

Landorus is rarely Steel, and is still vulnerable to Ice.

Mega Gardevoir isn't Steel.

Quagsire isn't Steel.

Clefable is often not Steel.

Please stop making patently untrue generalizations.

2. Use Mega Scizor then, you're acting super childish here. You're actively ignoring parts of my comments just so I have to repeat myself. Scyther is bad, if you're already using offensive scizor & offensive Dnite then I can see using Defensive Pivot Scyther. it's also weak to rocks so, not a very good pivot.
Stop with the personal attacks. Also note that Mega Scizor conflicts with other Megas, so that's a weak criticism.

3. And then it has roost and sets up to +6
+6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 129-152 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
... since when is Bronzong trapped and unable to switch out of Dragonite? Do you secretly know a hack for giving Dragonite Multiscale+Magnet Pull?

I'd like to mention that Flying Bisharp gains substantially more set up opportunities than ghost Bisharp, mostly for resisting Dragon and being immune to Ground so it can check Dragonite, or atleast weaken it a bit. They're both A(+) rank but I prefer flying as it's unexpected.
I still disagree with Bisharp being A rank. It really gets very little out of this meta, and some of the things it has held as a nearly unique niche in Standard (Being a vaguely fast, hard-hitting Steel type is one) have been stolen from it by other Pokemon, such as Steel Dragonite. Sticky Web and Defog are rare too, so it's harder to get Defiant triggers, and the main other thing it has (One of the stronger Sucker Punches of the game), though it isn't actually pushed aside by some other Pokemon (All the Pokemon that get Sucker Punch without being Dark have less Attack than it anyway), is much less relevant when almost nothing remains weak to it and a number of things are suddenly resistant. (Such as Dark or Fighting Landorus)

I'm going to have to say no to this one.

1. Yeah Gravity is really good, it works wonder. But I often find it difficult to set up a gravity and even then I struggle to outspeed most pokemon. When I play against it I usually knock 50% of its health and then revenge kill, I often just lose one pokemon while they might lose their win condition.
2. It's not going to matter if it's to slow to actually hit mons super effectively. It's also lets Dragonite get up one free Dragon dance as it only takes 35% from Focus blast after multiscale and can OHKO with Outrage. On another note, please keep in mind Dragonite when nominating pokemon, it's a crucial pokemon in this meta, extremely defining.
3. Landorus-I is not S rank in OU, what are you talking about?
4. Yes, it's better in Hidden type but the same goes for every mon. There's not a single mon who's at a disadvantage of adding a third type.
5. I find Landorus-I difficult to counter but easier to check. It gives free set up to Dragonite. Tornados-T can switch in and take a Knock off, it can scare it out with Knock off.
6. There are counters to it, and they're find on most playstyles. Bulk Dnite, Bug Mega slowbro, Flying Mega Ampharos, Ghost Mega Audino w/ Encore, Mega Gyarados sets up on it. That was just me scrolling through all the Megas, I'm sure I can find more.
7. It's good. It's very good, but it's not S rank, it's not defining. It's A rank IMO
If Dragonite is running Bulky, it won't outspeed after a Dragon Dance. Even if Landorus dies, another Pokemon may be able to take advantage of the Gravity to hit Dragonite, such as Hippowdon, which can survive a +1 Outrage. (In fact, it's not even a for-sure 2HKO) There are Pokemon that suffer in Hidden Type, either because no type is worth adding (Quagsire) while everyone else is powered up, or because other Pokemon shunt them aside, leaving them with no niche, so claiming "no Pokemon is worse in Hidden Type than in Standard" is incorrect.

I have never seen Bug Mega Slowbro nor Ghost Mega Audino and I don't expect to see either of them. I've also only seen Mega Gyarados once, and it was bad.

Earthquake is byfar the best coverage Dragonite runs, it should run Earthquake for Mega Altaria as it loses if not. Let's set up the situation.
I lead with Bisharp, you lead with Dragonite. You don't know which typing I am, but I know you're Steel.
You go for DD, I go for SD
You Earthquake, I avoid it. I knock off denting you heavily.
You Dragon claw or Outrage- it doesn't matter. I OHKO with Knock off.
That's usually how it goes, if not I can still use Sucker punch to break Multiscale.
+1 Iron Head is a 2HKO on both Steel and Fire Mega Altaria. Meanwhile Return without boosting isn't a OHKO even without Multiscale, and Mega Altaria is the same speed as Dragonite -if Mega Altaria switches in on Dragonite going for the Dragon Dance, it's not "Mega Altaria wins", it's "Dragonite wins", no Flinch hax needed, unless Dragonite's Multiscale has been broken in which case Mega Altaria has a shot at taking it down by Dragon Dancing and then attacking.

It's not going to stay in because it can switch out, Bronzong isn't difficult to deal with and it Dragonite is only able to 3HKO. I wouldn't. Basically: I wouldn't risk Thunderwave/toxic or something else.
Bronzong doesn't learn Thunder Wave.

Steel Dragonite is immune to Toxic
.

Stop saying stupid shit and then acting like it's other people who are stupid.

Or, if that's too hard for you to accomplish, please kindly stop posting in the thread if your primary contribution is going to continue to be spreading misinformation coupled with insulting other people.

Landorus for S Rank
I was initially unconvinced, but yeah it's pretty impressive. I can back this.
 
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The Immortal

is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Agree with most of the above. Except, Ground Mega Gyarados is one of the best Mega's imo. I have won tournaments with it and have been successful with it on the ladder.

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang

I like Moxie because it bluffs non-Mega and also allows you to get a boost before Mega Evolving. The only thing I can think of that resists its STABs, and Ice Fang doesn't hit super-effectively, is (Grass) Manaphy.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Isa Simple didn't call you a moron, he said you say dumb things, and that it's strange given how good on ladder you seem to be.

You in turn implied that he is retarded, entirely because you were mad at him.

Please don't pretend these are equivalent. Isa Simple shouldn't have said that, but you escalated quite quickly.



Gyarados isn't Steel.

Manaphy isn't Steel.

Skarmory is Steel but is usually neutral to Ice.

Landorus is rarely Steel, and is still vulnerable to Ice.

Mega Gardevoir isn't Steel.

Quagsire isn't Steel.

Clefable is often not Steel.

Please stop making patently untrue generalizations.



Stop with the personal attacks. Also note that Mega Scizor conflicts with other Megas, so that's a weak criticism.



... since when is Bronzong trapped and unable to switch out of Dragonite? Do you secretly know a hack for giving Dragonite Multiscale+Magnet Pull?



I still disagree with Bisharp being A rank. It really gets very little out of this meta, and some of the things it has held as a nearly unique niche in Standard (Being a vaguely fast, hard-hitting Steel type is one) have been stolen from it by other Pokemon, such as Steel Dragonite. Sticky Web and Defog are rare too, so it's harder to get Defiant triggers, and the main other thing it has (One of the stronger Sucker Punches of the game), though it isn't actually pushed aside by some other Pokemon (All the Pokemon that get Sucker Punch without being Dark have less Attack than it anyway), is much less relevant when almost nothing remains weak to it and a number of things are suddenly resistant. (Such as Dark or Fighting Landorus)



If Dragonite is running Bulky, it won't outspeed after a Dragon Dance. Even if Landorus dies, another Pokemon may be able to take advantage of the Gravity to hit Dragonite, such as Hippowdon, which can survive a +1 Outrage. (In fact, it's not even a for-sure 2HKO) There are Pokemon that suffer in Hidden Type, either because no type is worth adding (Quagsire) while everyone else is powered up, or because other Pokemon shunt them aside, leaving them with no niche, so claiming "no Pokemon is worse in Hidden Type than in Standard" is incorrect.

I have never seen Bug Mega Slowbro nor Ghost Mega Audino and I don't expect to see either of them. I've also only seen Mega Gyarados once, and it was bad.



+1 Iron Head is a 2HKO on both Steel and Fire Mega Altaria. Meanwhile Return without boosting isn't a OHKO even without Multiscale, and Mega Altaria is the same speed as Dragonite -if Mega Altaria switches in on Dragonite going for the Dragon Dance, it's not "Mega Altaria wins", it's "speed tie rolls determine winner".



Bronzong doesn't learn Thunder Wave.

Steel Dragonite is immune to Toxic
.

Stop saying stupid shit and then acting like it's other people who are stupid.

Or, if that's too hard for you to accomplish, please kindly stop posting in the thread if your primary contribution is going to continue to be spreading misinformation coupled with insulting other people.



I was initially unconvinced, but yeah it's pretty impressive. I can back this.
Now I'm angry, I'm angry with BS that's why I'm probably going to sound harsh.

I'm ranked number one because I've battled over 150 battles and taken the time to learn the metagame as well as building a great team

Yuck this again,
When did I call him retarded? I called him a Bidoof. You people keep going on and on about personal attack, but in this instance he started. I know you're just heavily biased because of our previous discussion, but it really does feel shitty when you, who has battled 40 battles, senselessly argument for something that's really not viable (Bug. Chansey) He argumented heavily for Mega Abamosnow to be B rank, when I disagreeded and put out arguments he started to call my arguments "Stupid shit" ... F*** that. It basically makes your case irrelevant, you didn't insult me if I remember. You just never. stopped. arguing.

"The things you say are dumb"
"Your personality is goofy"
"STOP ESCALATING" Jesus christ.

----------------------

Gyarados isn't Steel.

Manaphy isn't Steel.

Skarmory is Steel but is usually neutral to Ice.

Landorus is rarely Steel, and is still vulnerable to Ice.

Mega Gardevoir isn't Steel.

Quagsire isn't Steel.

Clefable is often not Steel.

Please stop making patently untrue generalizations.

----------------------

What. Is. this? I have no idea what point you're making. Clefable runs steel as well as Fire... I have no clue what you want here. You just mentioned 8 pokemon and said "they don't use steel, therefore nothing uses steel" Jesus christ
Stop making pointless arguments without any merit nor any point, I literally have no idea what you're trying to say.

-------------------------

Stop with the personal attacks. Also note that Mega Scizor conflicts with other Megas, so that's a weak criticism.

-------------------------

I'm not, I'm trying to make him understand what I'm trying to say(You didn't either). First of all, you can use Scizor for this role it's just as good only less bulky with no opportunity cost. Secondly, yes. That's the point. Mega Scizor COMPLETELY outclasses Scyther as a defensive pivot that can sweep late game. that's why I'm argumenting for Scyther being ranked D

Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

It's outclassed, but has a niche in not having a particular opportunity cost. D RANK

---------------------

... since when is Bronzong trapped and unable to switch out of Dragonite? Do you secretly know a hack for giving Dragonite Multiscale+Magnet Pull?

Bronzong doesn't learn Thunder Wave.

Steel Dragonite is immune to Toxic
.

Stop saying stupid shit and then acting like it's other people who are stupid.
Or, if that's too hard for you to accomplish, please kindly stop posting in the thread if your primary contribution is going to continue to be spreading misinformation coupled with insulting other people.

---------------------------

If I have my dragonite versus a Bronzong or something equally passive(like a Cresselia). They can't do anything to me, I can set up on them. But I have other checks to Bronzong. I'm unsure on what they're running, I don't know Bronzong or Cresselias moveset and I'd rather scout than leave my self vulnerable to something like Trick Flame orb, why is why in that situation I would scout. I see the flame orb and then know "ah, alright, scouted" That's the point I was trying to make, and that's a perfectly reasonable argument since you made the "Bronzong can always switch out" argument.

--------------------------

I still disagree with Bisharp being A rank. It really gets very little out of this meta, and some of the things it has held as a nearly unique niche in Standard (Being a vaguely fast, hard-hitting Steel type is one) have been stolen from it by other Pokemon, such as Steel Dragonite. Sticky Web and Defog are rare too, so it's harder to get Defiant triggers, and the main other thing it has (One of the stronger Sucker Punches of the game), though it isn't actually pushed aside by some other Pokemon (All the Pokemon that get Sucker Punch without being Dark have less Attack than it anyway), is much less relevant when almost nothing remains weak to it and a number of things are suddenly resistant. (Such as Dark or Fighting Landorus)

Sure

--------------------

If Dragonite is running Bulky, it won't outspeed after a Dragon Dance. Even if Landorus dies, another Pokemon may be able to take advantage of the Gravity to hit Dragonite, such as Hippowdon, which can survive a +1 Outrage. (In fact, it's not even a for-sure 2HKO) There are Pokemon that suffer in Hidden Type, either because no type is worth adding (Quagsire) while everyone else is powered up, or because other Pokemon shunt them aside, leaving them with no niche, so claiming "no Pokemon is worse in Hidden Type than in Standard" is incorrect.

I have never seen Bug Mega Slowbro nor Ghost Mega Audino and I don't expect to see either of them. I've also only seen Mega Gyarados once, and it was bad.

I've seen Mega Gyarados multiple times, it's a great pokemon w/ ground. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not a check on stall, balance or offence(hard check). I'm pretty sure I'm going to step back from the Incarnated discussion. I'm unsure on it, but I'm leaning towards A rank.



Dragon + Ground is great coverage, not a lot resist it. It depends what your team needs, you can run Aqua tail for heatran, Tpunch for Tornadus ect ect. Its willy nilly regardless, though Earthquake just allows you to hit the metagame easily, I often find Aqua tail / Equake / Dclaw to be more than enough.


Why should I stop posting in this thread? I'm being dealing as much as I'm dishing out. We really need a blacklist on here
 
Anyway while I haven't laddered this month I can say mega gyrados did very well last month and deserves some recognition for its ability to break things most mons can't due to stab earthquake on levitators.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Dark Mega Bee boasts the strongest Knock Off in the entire meta. After one SD there is not a lot of stuff that will survive a hit, U-turn is for cowards. SD, Poison Jab, Knock Off, and X-Scissor is the optimal moveset. After the removal of priority abusers and some troublesome fat mons (looking at you Hippo) this bug cleans very easily.
 
Ground Mega Gyarados
I should clarify what I mean by "bad" in this case: I don't mean "un-viable", I mean "more niche than its base form", which is a problematic thing for a Mega Evolution to be. I've not personally seen Mega Gyarados pull off anything impressive, or more precisely I haven't seen it much period, so I won't speak to its quality in a broad sense, but overall I'd rather carry some other Mega Evolution. Certainly, you can just hold off on Mega Evolving and use Mega Gyarados like regular Gyarados until it's time for whatever Mega Gyarados does well, but the loss of an item is a big deal -it surprises me how often I manage to get from 12%-ish back up to 50% off of Leftovers with Gyarados, which often lets it take another hit before going down, and honestly Leftovers is probably not its best item, I just haven't thought of a better idea.

On the other hand, if your team has Gyarados anyway and no other Mega Evolution-capable Pokemon... well, at that point the only cost is the item slot, which still seems big to me, based on my own experience, but that's the only argument I have against running it at that point.

What. Is. this? I have no idea what point you're making. Clefable runs steel as well as Fire... I have no clue what you want here. You just mentioned 8 pokemon and said "they don't use steel, therefore nothing uses steel" Jesus christ
Stop making pointless arguments without any merit nor any point, I literally have no idea what you're trying to say.
My point is these are all Pokemon that are important and relevant to the meta. Many of them are usually neutral or worse to Blizzard. The only possible relevancy of bringing up Steel's presence in the meta in regards to Abomasnow's viability is to argue that its attacks will be so commonly resisted as to allow it no niche. This is untrue.

In actual practice I rarely see more than 2 Steel-typed Pokemon on a given team, anyway, and more importantly it's extremely common for them to be covering weaknesses that include Ice -and therefore even the Steel typed Pokemon on a team aren't necessarily resistant. It's also worth commentary that Grass Manaphy really can't do jack to Steel Abomasnow -it resists Scald and Ice Beam, double resists Energy Ball, and isn't all that bothered by a Burn if it's doing the Special attacking thing anyway. Even at +3 Scald isn't a 2HKO (Barring Burn) when Mega Abomasnow has zero bulk!

I'm not, I'm trying to make him understand what I'm trying to say(You didn't either). First of all, you can use Scizor for this role it's just as good only less bulky with no opportunity cost. Secondly, yes. That's the point. Mega Scizor COMPLETELY outclasses Scyther as a defensive pivot that can sweep late game. that's why I'm argumenting for Scyther being ranked D

Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.
It's outclassed, but has a niche in not having a particular opportunity cost. D RANK
Scyther is not only tougher (Due to Eviolite) but faster than Scizor, even Mega Scizor. This is kind of important for the setup sweeper role. Scyther is very, very different from Mega Scizor, and arguing that Scyther is just "bad Mega Scizor" is not only, again, a weak argument because Mega, but incorrect anyway.

If I have my dragonite versus a Bronzong or something equally passive(like a Cresselia). They can't do anything to me, I can set up on them. But I have other checks to Bronzong. I'm unsure on what they're running, I don't know Bronzong or Cresselias moveset and I'd rather scout than leave my self vulnerable to something like Trick Flame orb, why is why in that situation I would scout. I see the flame orb and then know "ah, alright, scouted" That's the point I was trying to make, and that's a perfectly reasonable argument since you made the "Bronzong can always switch out" argument.
So basically what you're saying is that Bronzong can still cause you to decide to switch, sacrificing your boosts, and thus still accomplishing something useful.

You're also engaging in false equivalency here. Bronzong switching out sacrifices no boosts. Dragonite switching out does sacrifice boosts. They carry different opportunity costs.
 
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I should clarify what I mean by "bad" in this case: I don't mean "un-viable", I mean "more niche than its base form", which is a problematic thing for a Mega Evolution to be. I've not personally seen Mega Gyarados pull off anything impressive, or more precisely I haven't seen it much period, so I won't speak to its quality in a broad sense, but overall I'd rather carry some other Mega Evolution. Certainly, you can just hold off on Mega Evolving and use Mega Gyarados like regular Gyarados until it's time for whatever Mega Gyarados does well, but the loss of an item is a big deal -it surprises me how often I manage to get from 12%-ish back up to 50% off of Leftovers with Gyarados, which often lets it take another hit before going down, and honestly Leftovers is probably not its best item, I just haven't thought of a better idea.

On the other hand, if your team has Gyarados anyway and no other Mega Evolution-capable Pokemon... well, at that point the only cost is the item slot, which still seems big to me, based on my own experience, but that's the only argument I have against running it at that point.
I wouldn't call Mega Gyarados niche at all; in fact, it is superior to regular Gyarados in many ways. First off, Mega Gyarados has a higher attack which regular Gyarados can only compensate for with a Life Orb, which really harms its longevity. Second, Mega Gyarados has STAB Crunch which gives it an almost unresisted triple STAB combination with Waterfall and Earthquake when you factor in Mold Breaker. Third, Mega Gyarados has Mold Breaker which allows it to get past Levitators, Dragonite, Unaware Quagsire and Clefable, and random Shedinja much easier than regular Gyarados.

Mega Gyarados can check a +1 Dragonite if its base form has Intimidate since Crunch almost always 2HKOs Dragonite while Dragon Claw fails to 2HKO Mega Gyarados after Dragonite's attack is lowered to +0 due to Intimidate. Regular Gyarados can't 2HKO Dragonite through Multiscale with Ice Fang and is 2HKOed by +0 Dragon Claw unless it has significant HP investment, so it cannot check Dragonite.

As for the opportunity cost of using up your mega slot, let's compare Mega Gyarados to the other two mega Dragon Dancers: Altaria and Charizard-X. Mega Gyarados has significantly more overall bulk than Mega Altaria, especially when you factor in Intimidate. Mega Gyarados's Earthquake hits almost as hard as Mega Altaria's Return. Mega Gyarados gets the one point speed jump on Altaria and Dragonite. As I mentioned before, Mega Gyarados has nearly unresisted triple STABs while Mega Altaria is walled by Flying Heatran no matter what coverage it runs. Mega Gyarados also has advantages over Zard-X as a setup sweeper. Mega Gyarados has much better longevity than (Dark) Zard-X because of its bulk and Intimidate, its lack of SR weakness, and the fact that Mega Gyarados doesn't take recoil on its most powerful STAB.

Also, as TI mentioned, you can run moxie on Gyarados to nab a free attack boost before Mega Evolving which makes Mega Gyarados even more of a nightmare to face.

I think Mega Gyarados is a relatively "undiscovered" threat in this meta which will have a big impact when people actually start using it.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I should clarify what I mean by "bad" in this case: I don't mean "un-viable", I mean "more niche than its base form", which is a problematic thing for a Mega Evolution to be. I've not personally seen Mega Gyarados pull off anything impressive, or more precisely I haven't seen it much period, so I won't speak to its quality in a broad sense, but overall I'd rather carry some other Mega Evolution. Certainly, you can just hold off on Mega Evolving and use Mega Gyarados like regular Gyarados until it's time for whatever Mega Gyarados does well, but the loss of an item is a big deal -it surprises me how often I manage to get from 12%-ish back up to 50% off of Leftovers with Gyarados, which often lets it take another hit before going down, and honestly Leftovers is probably not its best item, I just haven't thought of a better idea.

On the other hand, if your team has Gyarados anyway and no other Mega Evolution-capable Pokemon... well, at that point the only cost is the item slot, which still seems big to me, based on my own experience, but that's the only argument I have against running it at that point.



My point is these are all Pokemon that are important and relevant to the meta. Many of them are usually neutral or worse to Blizzard. The only possible relevancy of bringing up Steel's presence in the meta in regards to Abomasnow's viability is to argue that its attacks will be so commonly resisted as to allow it no niche. This is untrue.

In actual practice I rarely see more than 2 Steel-typed Pokemon on a given team, anyway, and more importantly it's extremely common for them to be covering weaknesses that include Ice -and therefore even the Steel typed Pokemon on a team aren't necessarily resistant. It's also worth commentary that Grass Manaphy really can't do jack to Steel Abomasnow -it resists Scald and Ice Beam, double resists Energy Ball, and isn't all that bothered by a Burn if it's doing the Special attacking thing anyway. Even at +3 Scald isn't a 2HKO (Barring Burn) when Mega Abomasnow has zero bulk!



Scyther is not only tougher (Due to Eviolite) but faster than Scizor, even Mega Scizor. This is kind of important for the setup sweeper role. Scyther is very, very different from Mega Scizor, and arguing that Scyther is just "bad Mega Scizor" is not only, again, a weak argument because Mega, but incorrect anyway.



So basically what you're saying is that Bronzong can still cause you to decide to switch, sacrificing your boosts, and thus still accomplishing something useful.

You're also engaging in false equivalency here. Bronzong switching out sacrifices no boosts. Dragonite switching out does sacrifice boosts. They carry different opportunity costs.
Not going to mention Mega Gyarados, I think you have to use it, it's really good. And other people have mentioned it.

I just have no idea why you would want to sacrifice your Mega Abamosnow spot? You could run Mega Scizor for bulky, fire weak set up sweeper with priority. Mega Lopunny for a hit hard and run. Mega Gardevoir for special attacker. Even Mega Altaria for an offensive set up sweeper. It doesn't really have anything special it does, besides:
Starting Hail
Unique typing
Unique priority for a mega pokemon
100% accurate Blizzard

And that's why I would place it in C+, not B.

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Exactly, that's why I would put it in D rank. It's not unviable, it's not useless. For example, let's take Simisear(it's the fire one). Simisear has NO niche in OU. None. It's outclassed by a variation of Heatran, Infernape and Charizard. Therefore it has no ranking in OU(I'm guessing here, don't quote me on it). However, Scyther does have a niche in HT. It has bulk, it has speed and it has no opportunity cost(aside from SR weakness)
That's why It should be D rank. It's outclassed as a defensive pivot by Scizor, it's outclassed as defensive setup sweeper by Mega scizor, it's outclassed as an offensive setup sweeper by Dragonite. However... it's more defensive than Dragonite, it's faster than Scizor and it lacks the opportunity cost that it comes It's also weak to SR.

TL;DR It's outclassed in preforming its roles. However, it has a niche in being faster than Scizor and not taking up a mega slot. D rank
 
Everyone keeps mentioning a bunch of roles for scyther, but no one mentions that it's essentially the best non mega scout in hidden type. Running a fighting HP can actually make Scyther a really potent scout giving it really solid neutral STAB coverage and only a 2X weakness instead of a 4X weakness to rocks. Slap on a band and you should be able to take some massive chunks out of your opponents Pokemon as well outspeed the vast majority of the Meta-game. It's generally outclassed by Beedrill, but the difference is relatively minor as Scyther does have better STAB coverage and doesn't have to waste a slot on something like protect. Scyther's attacks are on the lower end of the power spectrum so it's not exactly A material, but Scyther is definitely better than D rank. The steel set is also worth mentioning if you really want a faster Scizor sans bullet punch, but Scyther is really all about the offensive prowess in hidden type if you ask me.
 
I've used Ground Mega Gyarados. Even though Ground Mega Gyarados has its own advantages, I still prefer Dark Feraligatr. It hits MUCH harder with Life Orb, even though it has no STAB Earthquake. It also doesn't take up a mega slot.

Edit: Proof how Feraligatr hits much harder than Mega Gyarados, despite having 155 Attack

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 217-256 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Crunch does the same amount

Edit again:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Uh, not that much harder, but still hits harder.
 
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I've used Ground Mega Gyarados. Even though Ground Mega Gyarados has its own advantages, I still prefer Dark Feraligatr. It hits MUCH harder with Life Orb, even though it has no STAB Earthquake. It also doesn't take up a mega slot.

Edit: Proof how Feraligatr hits much harder than Mega Gyarados, despite having 155 Attack

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 217-256 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 277-328 (43.1 - 51%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Crunch does the same amount

Edit again:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Uh, not that much harder, but still hits harder.
Mega Gyarados has the advantages of having better bulk due to Intimidate, a third STAB, and Mold Breaker which lets it get past Quagsire and Unaware Water Clefable which Feralgatr cannot do. Mega Gyarados also outspeeds the important 80 base speed tier. I think Mega Gyarados is better overall, but Feralgatr is a viable alternative if you want to use your mega slot on something else.

Edit: Although this isn't a huge deal, Mega Gyarados can also occasionally steal a game for you with a clutch Waterfall flinch which Feralgatr can't do because of Sheer Force.
 
I wouldn't call Mega Gyarados niche at all; in fact, it is superior to regular Gyarados in many ways. First off, Mega Gyarados has a higher attack which regular Gyarados can only compensate for with a Life Orb, which really harms its longevity. Second, Mega Gyarados has STAB Crunch which gives it an almost unresisted triple STAB combination with Waterfall and Earthquake when you factor in Mold Breaker. Third, Mega Gyarados has Mold Breaker which allows it to get past Levitators, Dragonite, Unaware Quagsire and Clefable, and random Shedinja much easier than regular Gyarados.
Regular Gyarados can kill most Unaware Clefable just fine, without even carrying a Life Orb.

252+ Atk (Ground) Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO

This basically represents the minimum scenario, barring the truly bizarre possibility of Grass Clefable. If it's Steel, it's dead. If it's not Physically Defensive, it's dead. If it's already been Burned/Poisoned by a buddy, it's dead. Etc. If it's not Water or Dragon, there's also the possibility of Flinching it down with Waterfall, and it just doesn't hit hard enough back against regular Gyarados to be a threat. (Mega Gyarados is vulnerable to Moon Blast)

I'll give you Unaware Quagsire though, and I'll admit nothing viable leaps to mind that resists all of Waterfall/Crunch/Earthquake.

I will note that Levitators are surprisingly rare, however.

Mega Gyarados can check a +1 Dragonite if its base form has Intimidate since Crunch almost always 2HKOs Dragonite while Dragon Claw fails to 2HKO Mega Gyarados after Dragonite's attack is lowered to +0 due to Intimidate. Regular Gyarados can't 2HKO Dragonite through Multiscale with Ice Fang and is 2HKOed by +0 Dragon Claw unless it has significant HP investment, so it cannot check Dragonite.
Dragon Tail. I stopped running Ice Fang ages ago because the firepower is disappointing if you're not picking on a double weakness. Dragon Tail forces Dragonite out, lets Gyarados hold onto its Dragon Dances in the face of Whirlwind/Roar (Because Gyarados is probably faster before the Dragon Dance, let alone after) while getting in free damage etc, and it means Dragonite is unable to simply Roost off the damage, in addition to costing it its boosts.

Regular Gyarados can survive even a +1 Dragon Claw, too. (Not a +1 Outrage, but that's what Fairies are for)

As for the opportunity cost of using up your mega slot, let's compare Mega Gyarados to the other two mega Dragon Dancers: Altaria and Charizard-X. Mega Gyarados has significantly more overall bulk than Mega Altaria, especially when you factor in Intimidate. Mega Gyarados's Earthquake hits almost as hard as Mega Altaria's Return. Mega Gyarados gets the one point speed jump on Altaria and Dragonite. As I mentioned before, Mega Gyarados has nearly unresisted triple STABs while Mega Altaria is walled by Flying Heatran no matter what coverage it runs. Mega Gyarados also has advantages over Zard-X as a setup sweeper. Mega Gyarados has much better longevity than (Dark) Zard-X because of its bulk and Intimidate, its lack of SR weakness, and the fact that Mega Gyarados doesn't take recoil on its most powerful STAB.
Mega Charizard X gets Roost if it cares about longevity. Mega Gyarados does not. Fair enough on Mega Altaria though, even considering it also gets Roost.

I just have no idea why you would want to sacrifice your Mega Abamosnow spot? You could run Mega Scizor for bulky, fire weak set up sweeper with priority. Mega Lopunny for a hit hard and run. Mega Gardevoir for special attacker. Even Mega Altaria for an offensive set up sweeper. It doesn't really have anything special it does, besides:
Starting Hail
Unique typing
Unique priority for a mega pokemon
100% accurate Blizzard

And that's why I would place it in C+, not B.
Mega Abomasnow isn't a setup sweeper, and is out-of-the-box Special damage. Mega Scizor isn't really comparable. Mega Lopunny is considerably less bulky, and hits different things. Mega Gardevoir, again, hits different things, and Mega Altaria is, again, Physically oriented and Mega Abomasnow isn't a setup sweeper.

Mega Abomasnow is not really competing with any of these to the extent you're saying it does. A better comparison point would be finding a Mega that is overall better and runs Ice Special offense competently. (I don't think such a thing exists, though) And then preferably is a competent mixed attacker, since Mega Abomasnow can bop dedicated Special walls fairly effectively.

Exactly, that's why I would put it in D rank. It's not unviable, it's not useless. For example, let's take Simisear(it's the fire one). Simisear has NO niche in OU. None. It's outclassed by a variation of Heatran, Infernape and Charizard. Therefore it has no ranking in OU(I'm guessing here, don't quote me on it). However, Scyther does have a niche in HT. It has bulk, it has speed and it has no opportunity cost(aside from SR weakness)
That's why It should be D rank. It's outclassed as a defensive pivot by Scizor, it's outclassed as defensive setup sweeper by Mega scizor, it's outclassed as an offensive setup sweeper by Dragonite. However... it's more defensive than Dragonite, it's faster than Scizor and it lacks the opportunity cost that it comes It's also weak to SR.

TL;DR It's outclassed in preforming its roles. However, it has a niche in being faster than Scizor and not taking up a mega slot. D rank
...? none of these Pokemon outclass it in the combination of roles it brings to the table. How does being outperformed at any given task make it D rank, if none of them matches the combination it brings to the table? In fact, looking at the C and D descriptions...

The Immortal said:
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the Hidden Type metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Hidden Type metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.
... Scyther seems to better fit the desciption of C -it has notable niches, it can be compared unfavorably to a number of more popular pokemon in those niches, and if it doesn't fit the team's needs very well it probably won't work. D is "they do one thing" or "they're good, but there's no clear, specific use they have", backed by "multiple crippling flaws", which doesn't really fit what you're saying about Scyther.

I could certainly see C- though.
 
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Regular Gyarados can kill most Unaware Clefable just fine, without even carrying a Life Orb.

252+ Atk (Ground) Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO

This basically represents the minimum scenario, barring the truly bizarre possibility of Grass Clefable. If it's Steel, it's dead. If it's not Physically Defensive, it's dead. If it's already been Burned/Poisoned by a buddy, it's dead. Etc. If it's not Water or Dragon, there's also the possibility of Flinching it down with Waterfall, and it just doesn't hit hard enough back against regular Gyarados to be a threat. (Mega Gyarados is vulnerable to Moon Blast)

I'll give you Unaware Quagsire though, and I'll admit nothing viable leaps to mind that resists all of Waterfall/Crunch/Earthquake.

I will note that Levitators are surprisingly rare, however.
252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 153-181 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is the calc for any non Electric / Steel / Poison Clefable. Clefable can just CM on regular Gyarados and kill it with Moonblast. If you have Mega Gyarados and your opponent has Clefable, you can wait to mega evolve it and boost to the point where you can OHKO Clefable.

Dragon Tail. I stopped running Ice Fang ages ago because the firepower is disappointing if you're not picking on a double weakness. Dragon Tail forces Dragonite out, lets Gyarados hold onto its Dragon Dances in the face of Whirlwind/Roar (Because Gyarados is probably faster before the Dragon Dance, let alone after) while getting in free damage etc, and it means Dragonite is unable to simply Roost off the damage, in addition to costing it its boosts.

Regular Gyarados can survive even a +1 Dragon Claw, too. (Not a +1 Outrage, but that's what Fairies are for)
If Gyarados switches into a +1 Dragonite and Intimidate lowers its attack to +0, Dragonite does more than 50% to regular Gyarados with Dragon Claw while Dragon Tail does around 12% to Dragonite. Eventually, Dragonite is going to win that battle especially since Dragonite can Roost and Gyarados cannot. As a matter of fact, if you run Dragon Tail over Ice Fang on regular Gyarados, Dragonite checks Gyarados, not the other way around.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Regular Gyarados can kill most Unaware Clefable just fine, without even carrying a Life Orb.

252+ Atk (Ground) Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 231-273 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO

This basically represents the minimum scenario, barring the truly bizarre possibility of Grass Clefable. If it's Steel, it's dead. If it's not Physically Defensive, it's dead. If it's already been Burned/Poisoned by a buddy, it's dead. Etc. If it's not Water or Dragon, there's also the possibility of Flinching it down with Waterfall, and it just doesn't hit hard enough back against regular Gyarados to be a threat. (Mega Gyarados is vulnerable to Moon Blast)

I'll give you Unaware Quagsire though, and I'll admit nothing viable leaps to mind that resists all of Waterfall/Crunch/Earthquake.

I will note that Levitators are surprisingly rare, however.



Dragon Tail. I stopped running Ice Fang ages ago because the firepower is disappointing if you're not picking on a double weakness. Dragon Tail forces Dragonite out, lets Gyarados hold onto its Dragon Dances in the face of Whirlwind/Roar (Because Gyarados is probably faster before the Dragon Dance, let alone after) while getting in free damage etc, and it means Dragonite is unable to simply Roost off the damage, in addition to costing it its boosts.

Regular Gyarados can survive even a +1 Dragon Claw, too. (Not a +1 Outrage, but that's what Fairies are for)



Mega Charizard X gets Roost if it cares about longevity. Mega Gyarados does not. Fair enough on Mega Altaria though, even considering it also gets Roost.



Mega Abomasnow isn't a setup sweeper, and is out-of-the-box Special damage. Mega Scizor isn't really comparable. Mega Lopunny is considerably less bulky, and hits different things. Mega Gardevoir, again, hits different things, and Mega Altaria is, again, Physically oriented and Mega Abomasnow isn't a setup sweeper.

Mega Abomasnow is not really competing with any of these to the extent you're saying it does. A better comparison point would be finding a Mega that is overall better and runs Ice Special offense competently. (I don't think such a thing exists, though) And then preferably is a competent mixed attacker, since Mega Abomasnow can bop dedicated Special walls fairly effectively.



...? none of these Pokemon outclass it in the combination of roles it brings to the table. How does being outperformed at any given task make it D rank, if none of them matches the combination it brings to the table? In fact, looking at the C and D descriptions...



... Scyther seems to better fit the desciption of C -it has notable niches, it can be compared unfavorably to a number of more popular pokemon in those niches, and if it doesn't fit the team's needs very well it probably won't work. D is "they do one thing" or "they're good, but there's no clear, specific use they have", backed by "multiple crippling flaws", which doesn't really fit what you're saying about Scyther.

I could certainly see C- though.
I've seen Abamosnow run SD set, and even mixed SD since Blizzard is so good. ( Ice shard, SD, Blizzard/Earthquake & Woody Hammer) so yeah, Abamosnow is also a mixed attacker. And yes, it's not completely outclassed because of it's unique typing and ability. However all of its rolls can specifically be used by another Mega pokemon better, as explained in my previous comment. Again, it's not bad and I can easily see it in C+ because of unique typing, unique ability and unique coverage.

I'd argue that it doesn't fill all of the roles in one. It can't fill defensive Defog while at the same time being defensive/Offensive SD. It does have a multiple flaws though.
1. Weak to common offensive types, mitigating the useful ness of defensive SD. Rock, Electric, Fire whitch are all pretty common
2. Weak to Stealth rock
3. Sustainable to burn, and isn't really going to be doing a lot after one.
4. Lacks priority (Quick attack doesn't count)
5. It's not going to be hitting hard right of the bat, as a defensive set up sweeper it's pretty easy for pokemon to come in and hit it hard.
6. No high, viable BP moves
 
I'm not really grasping any of the comparisons being made for Mega Abomasnow.
Sharing the same role does not make any two pokemon comparable. For instance, Crawdaunt and Hawlucha are both Swords Dance sweepers, but are in no way comparable. They hit and are hit by completely different things. The two have so many differences and are not even remotely interchangeable.
Similarly Mega Abomasnow can't be compared to pretty much any of those megas mentioned.

If you want to compare Mega Abomasnow to something, I'd suggest Kyurem Black.
- Both have respectable bulk.
- They both have strong mixed offenses.
- They are both Ice type.
- They both can use High Base Power Moves for STAB and coverage. Kyub: Draco Meteor, Fusion Bolt, Outrage. Mega Abo: Leaf Storm, Blizzard, Wood Hammer, Earthquake.

Advantages to Kyurem Black:
- Can Hold an Item to boost its speed.
- Has more reliable recovery.
- Doesn't take a mega slot.
- Terravolt + Earth Power.
- Higher speed.
- Electric coverage in Fusion Bolt.
- Dragon STAB, general benefits of Dragon typing.

Advantages to Mega Abomasnow:
- Access to Swords Dance.
- Access to priority.
- Offensive pseudo recovery in Giga Drain.
- Grass STAB, general benefits of Grass typing.
- Physical Ice STAB in Avalanche.
- Hail damage.
- Higher BP special STAB due to Hail.

Both have their advantages and can fulfill similar roles. But their typing is still more than enough to separate them even without the advantages stated advantages.
Ice/Grass/Steel is very different to Ice/Dragon/Ground or Ice/Dragon/Electric (or I think I've seen 1 fighting). With a 3rd typing it is so hard to make comparisons in this meta when only 1 typing is the same. And in most the comparisons made between Mega Abo and other Megas there are 0 shared in typings.


Mega Abomasnow is one of the (if not the) only pokemon that can check all 3 S rank pokemon.

I know this isn't the best scenario but if Mega Abomasnow led against any of the S rank pokemon, the only things it would lose too are Focus Blast Landorus and Fire Punch Dragonite.

For more realistic scenarios:
- Manaphy forces something out.
- Mega Abomasnow switches in while Manaphy does what ever its heart desires.
- Mega Abomasnow 2HKOs with Blizzard and Manaphy fails to 2HKO even at +3. (Even if M-Abo comes in on SR, or is burnt by the 1st Scald.

- Landorus-I forces something out.
- Mega Abomasnow switches in while Landorus does anything other than Earth Power, Calm Mind or Focus Blast. (Dark Knock Off + Earth Power has like a 1% chance to 2HKO).
- Mega Abomasnow OHKOs with Blizzard while Landorus fails to kill Abo (unless it has focus blast which is generally not used on Dark Landorus and competes with Knock Off, Calm Mid, and Rock Polish and Poison Landorus).
- Note: You are safer just revenge killing than switching in. Can use protect to scout for Focus Blast and rack up Hail damage.

- Dragonite forces something out.
- Mega Abomasnow switches in while Dragonite does what ever its heart desires (unless its heart desires to run and use Fire Punch).
- Hail breaks Multiscale.
- Mega Abomasnow OHKOs with Blizzard while Dragonite fails to kill Abo (unless again it had Fire Punch).
- Note: Can use protect to scout for Fire Punch and rack up Hail damage.

So Mega Abomasnow is a very strong Manaphy counter, a strong Dragonite check, and a decent Landorus-I check.
It makes up for using the team's mega slot, by putting less pressure on the team to find checks to these monsters.
Checking the 3 S rank mons to me is reason enough to be at least B-. So the fact that it is one of the extremely few Ice STAB users and also has Grass STAB to hit the many Water types and a couple options to hit steel type, Mega Abomasnow to me is easily deserving of B+ or B at least. Immunity to Spore and Leech Seed is good too.


Just to clarify, Kyurem Black has a far harder time checking these threats:
It can't switch in on Dragonite's Outrage, or if it is Electric Kyub it is outsped and killed by +1 Dragonites EQ, unless scarfed. Also Ice Beam doesn't even OHKO which means you can be 2HKOed by things like Iron head or Dragon Claw before you may get a chance to KO Dragonite.

Landorus OHKOs with Focus blast, OHKOs Electric Kyub with Earth power, 2HKOs either Kyub with Sludge Bomb if Poison. Scarfed Kyub can revenge if Landorus isn't Rock polish.

Scarfed Ground Kyurem can't even 2HKO Manaphy without Draco. Ground Kyurem is OHKOed by Ice Beam at +3. Electric Kyub is more afraid of Scald Burns. If you are by chance running Scarf Draco Meteor on Electric Kyub this is your best bet. LO Electric Kyub can't come in on TG or is outsped and 2HKOed by Ice Beam.

Let me know if I made any mistakes or if anything is unclear or false. I just realised how much I wrote and don't have time to proof read right know and what not but I'm just gonna throw it out there anyway.

Mega Abomasnow to B+!
 
A+

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When you think offensive Ground type, this should be the first thing that pops into your mind. Ground Mega Gyarados has a lot to offer as a Mega: 2 useful pre-Mega abilities in Moxie and Intimidate, an insane attack stat of 155, plenty of bulk on both sides of the spectrum, and is slightly faster than other Dragon Dancers like Mega Altaria and Dragonite. Ground typing adds an Electric immunity without adding any new weaknesses, as well as giving Gyarados STAB Earthquake. Mold Breaker goes well with the newfound STAB, nailing Levitators who feel safe running a Steel typing and allowing Gyarados to break through Unaware mons like Clefable. The only downside here is the weakness to Grass and Fighting (Bug is not a common attacking type).
 
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A+

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When you think offensive Ground type, this should be the first thing that pops into your mind. Ground Mega Gyarados has a lot to offer as a Mega: 2 useful pre-Mega abilities in Moxie and Intimidate, an insane attack stat of 155, plenty of bulk on both sides of the spectrum, and is slightly faster than other Dragon Dancers like Mega Altaria and Dragonite. Ground typing adds an Electric immunity without adding any new weaknesses, as well as giving Gyarados STAB Earthquake. The only downside here is the weakness to Grass and Fighting (Bug is not a common attacking type).
I can get behind this. It is also worth noting how good Mold Breaker is here. Even if there aren't too many Levitators running around, pretty much all of them are hit for SE damage by STAB EQ, and Mold Breaker allows it to by pass Unaware, making it one of the few set up sweepers that can get past Steel/Water Clefable and Quagsire.
 
A


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Dark Type Diggersby, affectionately nicknamed "Dark Death Diggersby", is an unexpected threat in the meta that is all about spamming insanely powerful Dark STABs (and I'm not talking about Knock Off). There's not much to talk about here except that Huge Power and STAB Foul Play obliterates everything in sight, and not just limited to physical attackers either. It can run a Scarf set for immediate speed or an Agility set. For the most part it only does one thing in this meta, but it does it so well and so few things in the meta resist Dark type attacks that Diggersby can shine.
 
I can get behind this. It is also worth noting how good Mold Breaker is here. Even if there aren't too many Levitators running around, pretty much all of them are hit for SE damage by STAB EQ, and Mold Breaker allows it to by pass Unaware, making it one of the few set up sweepers that can get past Steel/Water Clefable and Quagsire.
I actually mentioned that in the first draft, but I think I was going to change where in the paragraph I mentioned it and forgot to put it back. I'll squeeze it in again real quick.
 

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