High power over accuracy?

[56k]

I hope this thread sticks to the topic, which is: "Why? Why was there an obvious trend of using the more powerful but inacurate moves this generation?"

It's not a thread to complain about hax, but instead a thread of honest analysis. Agent Gibbs' post is a good one, explaining how Keldeo has an 80% to 1hko several pokemon with hydro pump, but surf may have anything from a 10% chance to a 90% chance to ko that same pokemon depending on its remaining health.

The above post is also a very good one, with hard numbers.

Which nonaccurate move is the more definitive one that encapsulates what the discussion is about? Hydro pump, focus blast, or stone edge?

Hydro pump was the gamechanger that turns everything around once rain is up.

Focus blast is just...everywhere... Alakazam, Gengar, Reiniclus, Darkrai...

Stone Edge seems to be the most rewarding one because it smashes the common flying types and the users almost invariably pack swords dance. It comes standard with tyranitar, too, as opposed to politoed who might use surf or scald.

 

[HolyAvatar]

For me it's all about the 3hkoes into 2hko or 2hko into ohko.
When you say you it's a turn you don't do anything, I may just answer that you would have needed that extra turn to KO with the lower power.
It also makes switching riskier because of the damage you can cause (unless immunity), overwhelming the defensive pivot much more easily. You get a chance to get past your counter at higher health. It's basically +22% damage now. Instead of 35% damage you now do 42.7%. The counter stops being one at 79.4% hp instead of 64% hp. Factor in SR and some residual u-turn/whatever damage and boom it's that much harder to wall. It basically turns a 100% chance to be walled into a (for example) 1-0.8²=34% chance to be walled.
If you go for the safe move you're that much easier to wall and deal with. The stronger but less accurate move actually puts more pressure on the defender hoping for it to miss than the attacker (and it's only a 20% chance) from experience.
The problem here is that using bp*accuracy is an incomplete theoretical model (infinite health on defender is implied or damage "splashing" to the next mon -and NOT infinite number of battles which would be a much easier to accept assumption) when you have breakpoints to achieve, namely the number of hits to KO.

 

[Xiammes]

As a rule of thumb, I don't use anything with lower then 80 accuracy. I think the idea is if you don't use them, you are fucked either way, there are situations where you can't kill with surf or flame thrower, but can with fire blast or hydro pump.

 

[TwoBit]

It's those skills are balanced for risk/reward. For some pokemon, usually the frail and powerful type, there's little difference from missing a 120BP attack and having to rely to two weaker 90BP attacks because not being able to OHKO the opponent often means that getting KO'd themselves.

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

Focus Blast is used because there is no "Surf" in that move's situation; Aura Sphere has bad distribution, while Hidden Power Fighting is so incredibly weak. Stone Edge is used because the other Rock-type physical moves are Rock Throw (at 50 power), Rock Slide (which isn't fully accurate, but loses a quarter of its power relative to Stone Edge in exchange for 10% more accuracy), Rock Tomb (at 50 power), Rock Blast (which can be better in some situations, but has so much worse distribution not being a TM and is worse anyway half the time), and Rock Wrecker (which has recoil). So Skill Link Pokemon will run Rock Blast if they can, and Pokemon who can afford to take the power hit (and get the move) will use Rock Slide, but otherwise Stone Edge is necessary. Hydro Pump was used because it was just SO powerful in the rain on the likes of Keldeo. It might still be used, but it won't be different.

 

[Shurtugal]

Personally, its a player preference. It all depends on how much you are willing to risk. Personally, more and more people (including myself) are OK with sacrificing accuracy for power since it's become really important in Gen 5 (and Gen 6). However, I'm sure it's possible to run less-risk moves just as effectively, but you might find yourself hitting things a tad to lightly since the metagame has gone offensive.

If this were Gen 5, I'd say it's preference. However, in Gen 6? I really don't know; there is such a huge speed tier and huge hitters that I can't really give a straight answer anymore. Sadly, I think power over accuracy is required, especially for much needed coverage (like Gengar and Focus Blast for Tyranitar. Coverage is everything in Gen 6 I'm finding; like Crunch or Ice Punch on Lucario for Aegislash or Landorus-T, etc.).

 

[Lazybeef]

High power moves nets KOs that you wouldn't otherwise get. Of course, getting KOs is top priority while battling. It's like people running thunder in GSC; the chance of scoring important KOs outweigh the fear of missing.

However, this isn't always the case and many times accuracy is more important. It depends on the pokemon and the playstyle.

 

[Alice in Pyroland]

Putting aside Surf vs Hydro Pump and Flamethrower vs Fire Blast, for various Pokemon sometimes low accuracy moves are their only option for certain coverage, see Focus Blast vs Hidden Power Fighting (lol) for a lot of Pokemon.

 

[Kriptini]

If you can score an OHKO with Thunder or a 2HKO with Thunderbolt, you'll want to opt for Thunder, because if Thunder hits the first turn, it saves you a turn of repercussions, and Thunder isn't likely to miss twice in a row compared to hitting once.

 

[Tribute]

If aura sphere was a TM that could be taken by anything/mostthings that get focus blast, similar to bolt/beam/thrower and 110 counterparts, a lot of people would run it over focus miss.

Hitting OHKO/2HKO thresholds aside, hitting that 80 threshold does alot for a move. In peoples minds if nothing else, they just feel safer if it says 80 over 7x.

Also, combining those two people just take losing off a miss better than losing to not killing, since it can just be written off as "grats you played like shit and won because of hax <X out of showdown/hit powerbutton>

Its also largely for "I lose if I miss, but if I don't kill I lose anyway", anything else (expecting a switch[but not enough to double switch/whocaresIcandealwithit]/suiciding setting up a revenge kill/etc) a neutral coverage or just firing off your STAB because YOLO nothing likes eating banded outrage/rain pump/sun blast usually does the job just as well

Who knows, with a new reason to not just brute force the metagame with outrage/draco/close combat spam, coupled with the nerf to 110 and less dominant weather for fireblast/pump we might see a resurgence of BoltBeamThrower

 

[Kriptini]

"grats you played like shit and won because of hax <X out of showdown/hit powerbutton>

This is why I love Pokemon lol

 

[BROloom]

Having the stronger moves like hydro pump/fire blast isn't always about actually hitting with them, it's the fear of them.

Can't think of an exact scenario, but lets say I have a pokemon in my team that is currently in at +2, you bring n your water pokemon. Now, in scenario 1, you have surf and I know that. I know I can take a surf, KO you in return, and hit something else hard before dying. I have no real reason to switch out, unless I specificity need this pokemon later on. So I stay in, you surf, I take it and kill you in return, I come out on top. Now in scenario 2, you have hydro pump and I know that. My pokemon can't take a hydro pump, it will OHKO him. There's a 20% chance that I'll come out on top, while there is a 80% chance you'll come out on top. Most players won't risk that, since the odds are not in our favour, so instead of risking it, I switch to my ferrothorn, you're hydro pump hits, you get 25% damage on me, your hydro pump misses and you get no damage on me, either way, it doesn't really matter to you what damage you did to ferrothorn anyway, all that it matters is you successfully stopped my sweep, all thanks to running hydro pump instead of surf.

Pokemon isn't always down to hitting and missing with certain moves, it isn't always about what does happen, but the fear of what "could" happen.

 

[Kriptini]

Pokemon isn't always down to hitting and missing with certain moves, it isn't always about what does happen, but the fear of what "could" happen.

This is a great point. After all, competitive battling in Pokemon is half about prediction and half about

 

[Tsplodey]

This is a great point. After all, competitive battling in Pokemon is half about prediction and half about

Way to leave us hanging. Half about luck? :)

 

[Kriptini]

Way to leave us hanging. Half about luck? :)

That's the full quote. You're supposed to use your prediction. ;)

 

[Tsplodey]

Oh. I get jokes.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Way to leave us hanging. Half about luck? :)

More like 80% good team building and match up 10% prediction and 10% luck.

 

[youngjake93]

In gen 3, you could run low BP attacks and just keep attacking until you eventually won.
The reason you couldn't afford to do that in gen 5 is because quite frequently the opponent had a high chance to ohko you due to power creep. Dice rolling on a high BP move that could ohko them before they ohko you(or 2hko your switch in) is a lot more useful than trying to 3hko them and bank on them missing.
Choice Specs Keldeo in rain(or insert whatever other high powered set) isn't something you want to slowly whittle down with low BP moves. Hit it with what will KO it asap.