High power over accuracy?

[Insignia]

Coming back into competitive battling, I'm seeing a general trend to opt for more powerful moves over weaker more accurate moves, Hydro Pump over Surf, for an example.

Why? This was mocked before. A player who used Hydro Pump over Surf was considered a noob who didn't understand the importance of consistency. 80% hit chance is, in fact, very low. It's like you are giving up a turn every 5th time you use Hydro Pump. In a game where every turn matters, this can easily be disastrous.

 

[Psylink]

As a player of B/W, Keldeo turns some notable 2HKOes into OHKOes. This applies to many, many, other Pokemon.

 

[PKMN1]

I have always wondered that before. I THINK it is because the stronger moves can OHKO or 2OHKO some pokemon that the other moves cannot. You are right though, I have seen many people lose simply because their attack missed.

 

[Celever]

It depends on the Pokemon. Some Pokemon use Hydro Pump and Surf, and some use one or the other. Not only does it depend on the Pokemon, though, it also depends on the trainer. Is it more important to get a KO on Gliscor than it is to be accurate? You just have to think about these things while you make sets. Of course going for the less powerful options isn't a bad idea at all, in fact people have began to use Scald which is even weaker. It's all a matter of opinion really.

 

[Aldrius]

In some cases, as in Focus Blast for example, it's just a case of high-risk high-reward. Gengar could miss that Focus Blast and get pursuited to death by Tyrannitar, or he could try to switch out and get pursuited anyway. A 70% chance of taking out Tyrannitar is better than a 0% chance of taking out Tyrannitar and losing your Gengar. Plus it's Gengar's only fighting coverage move. This applies to any of the psychic/ghost/dark pokemon that use focus blast. It's just too good a coverage move to worry about low accuracy.

In the case of Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, they're just so much more powerful than their counterparts for what is not a very large accuracy drop (missing 1 in 5 times is worth the power increase). But this only applies to Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. Blizzard and Thunder for example are still considered worthless unless you have a more reliable way to make use of them. It's just about the metagame and how people play really.

Of course going for the less powerful options isn't a bad idea at all, in fact people have began to use Scald which is even weaker.

Which again, comes down to the pokemon. Something like Tentacruel, which is meant to stay on the field for a long time and survive loves the burn chance of scald and is able to use the move multiple times. Starmie on the other hand is very fast and fragile and wants to KO it's opponent as quickly as it can.

 

[PKMN1]

In the case of Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, they're just so much more powerful than their counterparts for what is not a very large accuracy drop (missing 1 in 5 times is worth the power increase). But this only applies to Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. Blizzard and Thunder for example are still considered worthless unless you have a more reliable way to make use of them. It's just about the metagame and how people play really.

Yeah... but then you miss 2 times in a row or you run out of PP and then you realise the power is not worth it at all. especially when the weaker more accurate moves could have beat the pokemon already

 

[Aldrius]

Yeah... but then you miss 2 times in a row or you run out of PP and then you realise the power is not worth it at all. especially when the weaker more accurate moves could have beat the pokemon already

Doesn't happen that often in my experience. At least with Fire Blast.

 

[sunshinesan]

Does this phenomenon have anything to do with the transition from III's more defensive meta to the more offensive IV and V's?

 

[PKMN1]

Doesn't happen that often in my experience. At least with Fire Blast.

It always happens to me.

 

[DDRMaster]

One reason to use Fire Blast previously was that on average, you'd do more damage than Flamethrower (120 x .85 = 102). Hydro Pump was also slightly more powerful on average (120 x .8 = 96) but the power difference was negligible so it was simply a case of accuracy vs. power.

In this gen, on the other hand, Fire Blast only does slightly more damage on average than Flamethrower (110 x .85 = 93.5) and Hydro Pump actually does less on average than Surf (110 x .8 = 88) so that point doesn't really apply anymore. However, I still think many Pokemon will need to run these two moves to net certain OHKO's and 2HKO's.

 

[Insignia]

Doesn't happen that often in my experience.

It always happens to me.

Okay, none of this stuff. Use calculations to support yourself; personal experience means nothing.

Using binomial probability*, the probability of the first 8 Fire Blast to all hit is 27%. 2 Fire Blast missing in a row is 2.25%. So, missing 2 in a row is rather rare. At the same time, notice how hard it is for Fire Blast to be reliable with repeated use.

*http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx

One reason to use Fire Blast previously was that on average, you'd do more damage than Flamethrower

Average damage doesn't mean much in this game. So what if the average damage is higher if you miss? When the difference between hitting and missing is game changing, you can't use higher average damage to support yourself.

 

[PKMN1]

Okay, none of this stuff. Use calculations to support yourself; personal experience means nothing.

Using binomial probability*, the probability of the first 8 Fire Blast to all hit is 27%. 2 Fire Blast missing in a row is 2.25%. So, missing 2 in a row is rather rare. At the same time, notice how hard it is for Fire Blast to be reliable with repeated use.
.

Tell that to Focus Miss. It SAYS it has 75 accuracy, but anyone decently competitive will tell you it misses a lot more often that that, especially when it counts.

 

[Ash Borer]

Does this phenomenon have anything to do with the transition from III's more defensive meta to the more offensive IV and V's?

precisely this, lots of important 2HKOs were eeked out with the more powrful attacks so they saw use, simple. Back in gen 3 fire blast's power wasnt that useful when blissey's usage was about 50% and no special attackr could break through it anyways.

 

[Surgo]

On the contrary, Fire Blast was basically the only one used pre-IV (and, for a long time, in IV) because of its relatively high accuracy.

 

[Arcticblast]

Whining about hax does not make for a healthy discussion.
EDIT because I feel bad: like other users stated, it's an issue of risk versus reward. Do you want to be able to OHKO Garchomp 80% of the time with Hydro Pump but risk a gamebreaking miss, or do you definitely want to deal a ton of damage with Surf but have a very low shot at OHKOing it at all?

 

[56k]

Using moves like hydro pump was considered unviable in Gen IV, but Gen V brought weather starters, scald, prankster, shell smash, and pokemon like volcarona and terrakion. It's just a completely different game where banking on focus blast is your best option because your opponent is also using the same types of moves, and if you bunker down and try to stick to moves like surf and flamethrower you'll completely miss out while you get OHKOd by stone edge.

If more people settled down and decided to always use dragon pulse instead of draco meteor, always use HP fighting over focus blast, and always use flamethrower over fire blast, then other people would feel more comfortable making the same decisions because they could expect to live longer, and the longer you live the better it is to have 100% accurate moves when pokemon are finally whittling down into KO range.

It's psychology on a massive scale, where the first spoiler who decided to run specs hydro pump politoed sent the whole metagame into it's current aggressive and risky flavor.

 

[Mattman324]

Using moves like hydro pump was considered unviable in Gen IV,

Not entirely true. Starmie ran HP back then, pretty much everything ran Fire Blast, and in the lower tiers offensive Milotic could be seen with Hydro Pump. It's always been a consideration if you can score more KOs that way.

 

[PKMN1]

Using moves like hydro pump was considered unviable in Gen IV, but Gen V brought weather starters, scald, prankster, shell smash, and pokemon like volcarona and terrakion. It's just a completely different game where banking on focus blast is your best option because your opponent is also using the same types of moves, and if you bunker down and try to stick to moves like surf and flamethrower you'll completely miss out while you get OHKOd by stone edge.

except when it misses and you can beat them with no damage taken. I have seen so many people lose simply because they missed an attack and then taken down by a pokemon they could have beaten if they had just used a more accurate attack or have their best Sweeper completely crippled for similar reasons. Focus miss over HP fighting is one thing as focus blast is about double that of HP fighting and there is no in-between, but with flamethrower, surf, etc the accuracy seems to honestly outway the fact that instead of slightly lower damage you can completely miss and do no damage at all.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

When I first joined Smogon it would usually be the base 95 moves preferred over the less accurate, more powerful counterparts. The main exception was with physical sweepers who'd use Fire Blast to beat Skarmory and Forretress.

 

[56k]

Well, pokemon is a game of expected values and averages, not perfect strategies, because no matter how good your strategy is there's a team matchup that will destroy you on the ladder. In Gen V moves like hydro pump and stone edge just flat out give you a better chance of winning. People use innacurate moves because it gives them a better chance of winning more games in the long term.

Why do innacurate but powerful moves give you a higher win rate in the long term? Because in the weather you have just enough power, now, to get the 1hko or 2hk. You can't use the accurate but 3hko move because your opponent has strong moves that 1hko or 2hko you.

 

[Scepticallistic]

Yes, you have seen people lose because they missed an attack. That happens to everyone. Do you remember or can you even tell the matches where the player won because of a well-placed attack?

Everyone is trying to explain that it depends on the player and the Pokemon: Do you use that high-powered move because it's important for scoring KOs or do you use the more accurate move that requires 2 hits? There are so many factors at play here. Not every Pokemon comes in and slugs at the opponent with 100% accuracy moves until it bites the dust. There are some players who need a quick Pokemon to switch in, nail a solid hit with a powerful move, and then retreat and regroup. I agree there are times when the accurate move is apt and other times when the more powerful, less accurate move is appropriate. For me, if I'm using a Rain Dance sweeper, I'd use Surf, because they're usually fragile and missing can be costly. In addition, they hit plenty hard in the rain already. But they can hit even harder with Hydro Pump! Some people prefer this power because they can then hypothetically 2HKO a switch-in instead of 3, which can mean nailing it on the switch and then KOing immediately afterward without taking a hit.

It's just a preferential balance for everyone to decide on their own. If you don't like using inaccurate moves and 100% moves are working fantastically for you, then by all means continue doing what you're doing.

 

[PKMN1]

Yes, you have seen people lose because they missed an attack. That happens to everyone. Do you remember or can you even tell the matches where the player won because of a well-placed attack?

Everyone is trying to explain that it depends on the player and the Pokemon: Do you use that high-powered move because it's important for scoring KOs or do you use the more accurate move that requires 2 hits? There are so many factors at play here. Not every Pokemon comes in and slugs at the opponent with 100% accuracy moves until it bites the dust. There are some players who need a quick Pokemon to switch in, nail a solid hit with a powerful move, and then retreat and regroup. I agree there are times when the accurate move is apt and other times when the more powerful, less accurate move is appropriate. For me, if I'm using a Rain Dance sweeper, I'd use Surf, because they're usually fragile and missing can be costly. In addition, they hit plenty hard in the rain already. But they can hit even harder with Hydro Pump! Some people prefer this power because they can then hypothetically 2HKO a switch-in instead of 3, which can mean nailing it on the switch and then KOing immediately afterward without taking a hit.

true, i was just pointing out that saying the power over rides the accuracy is incorrect. both have reasons to use them, but it is wrong to say that you should be using the power moves no matter what and that using the accurate attacks is not good (which is what i got from some of the posts here).

 

[56k]

Everyone has seen someone lose because they missed a focus blast but I think the more tragic occurrence is when someone misses a toxic! After recognizing that some of the best (only?) options for many pokemon like will-o-wisp, dragon tail, leech seed, heat wave, draco meteor, and dark void are all innaccurate, the whole discussion unravels a little bit. So why did gamefreak decide to make such moves? Because accuracy/evasion is a staple in any RPG. It's something that, while maddening at times, we just have to swallow and accept.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I have seen so many people lose simply because they missed an attack and then taken down by a pokemon they could have beaten if they had just used a more accurate attack or have their best Sweeper completely crippled for similar reasons.

I've witnessed (and suffered) losses that resulted from using Surf or Flamethrower over Hydro Pump or Fire Blast and missing a key KO that the more powerful move would have scored. The balance vs power seesaw goes both ways. You might be in a jam with Keldeo where your opponent's Pokemon will only die to Surf about 10% of the time, whereas Hydro Pump would have nailed that KO had you chosen to run it instead. In this scenario, the rate of success between the two is going to be 10% vs 80%, and you're going to really wish you had Hydro Pump. Hax really sucks, but there are times where you really need that extra power.

Of course, the choice between power and accuracy has no doubt been affected by the new drops in power. 110 vs 90 BP just might not be as worth it as 120 vs 95 BP was.

 

[PKMN1]

Everyone has seen someone lose because they missed a focus blast but I think the more tragic occurrence is when someone misses a toxic!.

Did that three times in-a-row in-game yesterday. IMO, the worst occurrence is when you miss with Zen headbutt.

Personally, I have a conspiracy theory that Game Freak loves trying to screw with or possibly even ruin smogon and that is why they do some of the things they do, but that has little to do with the thread.