Hitmonlee

[Kefka Palazzo™]

-Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed
-Lucario's ExtremeSpeed (and the fact that he's immune to flinching)
-Deoxys-S's ExtremeSpeed (not as common, but not rare at the same time)
-While Gengar isn't a priority abuser, you can't use Fake Out on it, so you're going to lose against it
-BandApe's Mach Punch
-Metagross's Bullet Punch
-Mienshao's opposing Fake Out
-Terrakion, like Gengar, can outspeed you if it gets an RP off (which isn't hard at all)
-Toxicroak's Sucker Punch
-Reuniclus laughs at your speed if its a TR variant
-The fact that many other pokes can get to +2 Speed

- Though most Dnites are LumDD or w/e, I guess ES is common enough
- Luke isn't too common and ES on him is even less common
- There is 0 point for Deo-S to run ES in OU
- No priority and takes a shit load from other moves
- Infernape isn't very common and the ones I've seen are NP versions
- Metagross is even less common than Nape
- Yep
- Terrakion is usually scarfed or banded and Quick Attack isn't going to do much anyway :p
- Toxicroak's Sucker Punch? Oh no, a resisted move that Fake Out out-prioritizes(Actually, isn't it "faster" than ES?) D:
- Reuniclus laughs at a lot of things if it's a TR variant
- Doesn't matter, aside from Terrakion and weather sweepers, very few pokemon actually get instant +2 Speed

 

[waterwarrior]

- Though most Dnites are LumDD or w/e, I guess ES is common enough
Lately I've been seeing more ES Dnites, maybe its just me

- Luke isn't too common and ES on him is even less common
Luke was #26 in usage at the beginning of the month (at 7.5% usage) and HO has only become more common. How is Luke uncommon?

- There is 0 point for Deo-S to run ES in OU
I've seen quite a few with ESpeed, but whatever

- No priority and takes a shit load from other moves
What are you hitting it with before it deals 65.7-76.86% to you with Shadow Ball? Also, SubDisable can give you a lot of problems.

- Infernape isn't very common and the ones I've seen are NP versions
It follows Lucario in usage by .1% usage. And I've seen very few NP Apes period.

- Metagross is even less common than Nape
If its in the tier, it still counts.

- Terrakion is usually scarfed or banded and Quick Attack isn't going to do much anyway :p
But when it isn't, it wins.

- Toxicroak's Sucker Punch? Oh no, a resisted move that Fake Out out-prioritizes(Actually, isn't it "faster" than ES?) D:
Oh no, Toxicroak resists everything thrown at it and only takes neutral damage from Blaze Kick (assuming Rain is up), while Bulk Up makes it even easier for him!

- Doesn't matter, aside from Terrakion and weather sweepers, very few pokemon actually get instant +2 Speed
Oh, so a Haxorus NEVER gets 2 Dragon Dances?

 

[Lady Shinki]

Hitmonlee has a few hard counters:

1: Bulky Psychics
2: Banded priority abusers (LO Lucario's extremespeed does 90% max, so any stronger priority like scizor or BandNite will beat it)
3: Other walls that resist or are immune to fighting (ghosts like jellicent/mummy ghost, Gliscor, etc.)

He needs an awful lot of support to work, but he's meant to be a fast cleaner rather than a bulky sweeper. Even with Bulk Up, his lack of coverage means that his counters remain counters no matter how much Lee boosts.

 

[soul_survivor]

I haven't played OU in awhile but im pretty sure Gliscor walls the fudge out of him as ge does most physical attadkers so would hp ice be useful?, and then you got to switch out, and there goes your 2+ speed. Yea Lee to me doesn't seem to good. And Sala with intimidate or any intimidater lowers his attack, and now your at -1,+2 and if you wanna get back to neutral you have to switch out.

IMO my take on lee is your last second option. Keep him in the back, and don't use him till like 4-2 with you being down ir vice-versa. You should never use lee early.

 

[waterwarrior]

I haven't played OU in awhile but im pretty sure Gliscor walls the fudge out of him as ge does most physical attadkers so would hp ice be useful?

Absolutely not. A Modest LO Hitmonlee with max Sp. Atk only OHKO's a 4 HP/ min Sp. Def Gliscor 43% of the time.

 

[Katakiri]

Hitmonlee has a few hard counters:

1: Bulky Psychics
2: Banded priority abusers (LO Lucario's extremespeed does 90% max, so any stronger priority like scizor or BandNite will beat it)
3: Other walls that resist or are immune to fighting (ghosts like jellicent/mummy ghost, Gliscor, etc.)

He needs an awful lot of support to work, but he's meant to be a fast cleaner rather than a bulky sweeper. Even with Bulk Up, his lack of coverage means that his counters remain counters no matter how much Lee boosts.

If only there was some sort of Dark-type that could outspeed & take out Ghosts, Psychics, and Dragons.

Oh that's right, ScarfTar does that! No love for Weavile...

 

[Moe2]

Small note, this set will be extremely hard to pull off in OU and even in UU, however in RU (the tier Hitmonlee currently is in) I could see it being much more effective. Where Sand (and Hail) are not so dominant.

 

[Xephyr]

The lurk more meant "shut the fuck up, and concentrate on the pokemon, or fuck off" but in a nicer way.

I could care less about how many posts you/I have, and I could care less about your status. Why don't you concentrate on what I said about hitmonlee, and not you acting butt hurt?


Seriously, try "acting" like the "amazing" and "all knowing" battler you are, and try to add something more useful then "lolz he sucks"

If it's a 20 page essay on how much he sucks and every single reason why, that's what we want to hear, but the whole point is to debate his uses, if any, not "lulz he sucks here is one reason why"

Maybe, during your time here, you've forgotten this is all a debate?

I only give one reason because I only need to give one reason. Charizard's not very good in OU because he's weak to Stealth Rock. That's one reason, and it's the only reason that is needed. Hitmonlee is in the same boat.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Could you please NOT make your post INSIDE the Quote? D:

- Though most Dnites are LumDD or w/e, I guess ES is common enough
Lately I've been seeing more ES Dnites, maybe its just me

- Luke isn't too common and ES on him is even less common
Luke was #26 in usage at the beginning of the month (at 7.5% usage) and HO has only become more common. How is Luke uncommon?

- There is 0 point for Deo-S to run ES in OU
I've seen quite a few with ESpeed, but whatever

- No priority and takes a shit load from other moves
What are you hitting it with before it deals 65.7-76.86% to you with Shadow Ball? Also, SubDisable can give you a lot of problems.

- Infernape isn't very common and the ones I've seen are NP versions
It follows Lucario in usage by .1% usage. And I've seen very few NP Apes period.

- Metagross is even less common than Nape
If its in the tier, it still counts.

- Terrakion is usually scarfed or banded and Quick Attack isn't going to do much anyway :p
But when it isn't, it wins.

- Toxicroak's Sucker Punch? Oh no, a resisted move that Fake Out out-prioritizes(Actually, isn't it "faster" than ES?) D:
Oh no, Toxicroak resists everything thrown at it and only takes neutral damage from Blaze Kick (assuming Rain is up), while Bulk Up makes it even easier for him!

- Doesn't matter, aside from Terrakion and weather sweepers, very few pokemon actually get instant +2 Speed
Oh, so a Haxorus NEVER gets 2 Dragon Dances?

- Eh, depends. Since so many teams just use Deo-Screens I see more DDnites.

- True. But I still don't see ES on him that much.

- I just cannot think of a single reason to run ES on Deo-S in OU. To hit Dnite/Conk/Scizor/Luke? Doesn't make sense at all to out-prioritize any of them because it's an un-STABed move coming from 90 Attack and all of them are either bulky or resist it.

- I don't think Gengar likes risking switching in on Stone Edge/Blaze Kick...he probably isn't OHKO'd, but it's Gengar so he's taking quite a bit.

- True again. I still see more NP Napes though.

- Doesn't matter as much if it's not common.

- Again, taking into consideration the most common sets which is more important.

- Assuming no Rain, Blaze Kick 2HKOs Max/Max Toxicroak most of the time.
Assuming Rain...well yes, BUCroak does win and then I hope you have a Ghost.

- Why'd you let it get two completely free DDs? You're just asking to get swept there regardless. CB Max Attack Mamoswine's Ice Shard only has a 46% chance to OHKO that Haxorus after SR so not even the Dragon killer is going to always kill it.

 

[Xephyr]

- Assuming no Rain, Blaze Kick 2HKOs Max/Max Toxicroak most of the time.
Assuming Rain...well yes, BUCroak does win and then I hope you have a Ghost.

lol who the fuck uses toxicroak without rain?

 

[Jaetheho]

Umm... i use him on my sun team.

im just kidding. lol. the thing is you might be able to use your own weather to cancel the rain or ive seen people use toxicroak as an answer to water pokes.

like me, i use hitmonlee on my sun team with a boosted blaze kick that ohkoes.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

I only give one reason because I only need to give one reason. Charizard's not very good in OU because he's weak to Stealth Rock. That's one reason, and it's the only reason that is needed. Hitmonlee is in the same boat.

Charizard isn't OU because people (Like you) label him as a NOOB pokemon because of his weakness to stealth rock and relative uselessness last gen. This Gen Charizard is capable of 2HKO'ing the best Special wall in the game with a neutral move. Saying he isn't very good because of SR is stupid.

Also you didn't even give a reason. You went and bashed everything posted, but gave no reason as to why. (Also calling Fake Out a bad move....)

lol who the fuck uses toxicroak without rain?

Yeah cause there isn't any weather except for Rain in OU.... oh wait, there is. Also Hitmonlee has Earthquake, why you would use it to hit one pokemon I wouldn't know, but he does have access to it.


I've used Hitmonlee to some extent (UU mostly) and got rather high on the ladder a while back (Peaked at #6). But that was before Unburden was released, and I haven't given it a try again yet.

 

[Xephyr]

Yeah cause there isn't any weather except for Rain in OU.... oh wait, there is

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Do you know anything about this metagame? What makes Toxicroak is the fact that rain basically gives him like 10% of recovery per turn because of Dry Skin. No one uses it without rain. It would be retarded.

Charizard isn't OU because people (Like you) label him as a NOOB pokemon because of his weakness to stealth rock and relative uselessness last gen. This Gen Charizard is capable of 2HKO'ing the best Special wall in the game with a neutral move. Saying he isn't very good because of SR is stupid.

Also you didn't even give a reason. You went and bashed everything posted, but gave no reason as to why. (Also calling Fake Out a bad move....)

lololol, I'm not even going to address the first part.

And I have given reasons. You can only revenge once and then you don't get another chance, and Hitmonlee isn't really that strong anyway as it can't really do much against most OU sweepers (this thread IS meant for OU, so don't be all, 'well he can revenge in ru!!!111'), and his defenses are so shit that priority kills him. I have mentioned all of these things, so I'm just guessing that you can't read.

 

[Grammarian]

Charizard is hardly ever used in standard because of Stealth Rocks. Case closed and don't debate on it, and certainly not here.

Anyways, on the case of Hitmonlee, all that needs to be mentioned is the Strategy Pokedex analysis:

"Even with these advantages, Hitmonlee faces stiff competition for a spot on the team from other Fighting-types. Infernape's Fire STAB and high Special Attack allow him to destroy Weezing and Spiritomb, common counters for Fighting-types. Toxicroak's Dry Skin gives him more opportunities to switch in, while he can boost both his Attack and Special Attack, aiding his unpredictability. With entry hazards being so popular, Hitmontop is often the Fighting-type of choice because of his ability to Rapid Spin effectively."

And that is the 4th gen analysis. Let's not forget that Meinshao is superior than Hitmonlee in nearly every way in 5th generation. This makes Hitmonlee playable in UU and below only.

There's stiff competition between Fighting types and Hitmonlee simply can't compete with the others, which are more versatile in the roles they can play.

 

[Jaetheho]

actually, hitmonlee does have a niche in OU now, thanks to unburden.

what fighting type do you know that can double its speed against all foes not inner focus and ghost without being damaged? no pokemon (maybe blaziken.....)

this makes him an effective late game sweeper.

can infernape do this? no
can hitmontop do this? not even
can mienshao do this? nope.

 

[Grammarian]

That's one thing Hitmonlee can do that's unique, but I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't warrant usage. Unburden has many flaws that make sweeping very inconsistent:

-The effects can happen in a battle only once and disappear after switching out
-For the speed gain to work, you can't use an item (a travesty to sweepers who require Life Orb or Choice Band to do real damage)

These two facts cripple Hitmonlee's potential to sweep. A Pokemon with Agility and Life Orb would even make a better sweeper than Hitmonlee with Unburden. 120 base attack isn't exactly threatening enough to work alone without an item. And even if the stat-boosting berries were to be released in the future, a Substitute set to get Hitmonlee's HP to 1 is flawed what with Sandstorm's dominating presence in OU and with so many Pokemon having priority.

While an interesting idea, the gimmick of this ability can't justify Hitmonlee's usage in OU, I fear.

 

[tehy]

It's got a niche like an animal who lives in a guillotine-yeah it does something no one else can, that won't stop it from getting killed.

 

[Lady Shinki]

Hitmonlee DOES have a niche, you're just trying to use it as something it isn't.

It is one of the best anti-offensive weather pokemon in the entire game. It 1hko's every offensive Chlorophyller with Blaze Kick (needs hazards but can beat non-bulky Tangrowth as well). It can outspeed opposing swsw threats after the Fake Out and HJK most rain sweepers to oblivion (exception being Kingdra, who needs SR and a layer of spikes to be 1hko'ed by HJK and can only beat Hitmonlee if it's running a +Spe nature and you aren't). It can also outspeed anything slower than Timid Scarf Zebstrika (aka nothing but priority outspeeds him after the unburden boost). If your opponent doesn't have any intimidate mons, his power lets him squeak by and get KO's he needs on frail opponents, and he cleans up offense quite nicely.

 

[Advancer]

Has anyone considered using a Cell Battery with Unburden, or is it too unreliable for competitive play?

 

[Grammarian]

Hitmonlee DOES have a niche, you're just trying to use it as something it isn't.

It is one of the best anti-offensive weather pokemon in the entire game.

Calling Hitmonlee "the best" anti-weather Pokemon is a lot of wishful thinking.

If you find yourself against Sandstorm, then Gliscor will wall Hitmonlee for days, render the effects of his ability wasted, and set up. Landorus also laughs at Hitmonlee and Reuniclus gladly sets up on it. Skarmory doesn't care about Blaze Kick seeing as how Hitmonlee can't carry Life Orb with Unburden.

If you're in the rain, Rotom-W can take on Hitmonlee, seeing as how his attack is not threatning because his ability requires him to forgo Life Orb. Jellicent will wall any attack from Hitmonlee. Dragonite can set up while utilizing Multiscale. Jirachi in the rain won't care about Blaze Kick and will set up, and the same goes for Celebi. Starmie will run rampant. Toxicroak will shrug off its attacks and set up.

Pokemon that are found on both Sandstorm and Rain:
A Choice Band Scizor will 0HKO Hitmonlee with a single Bullet Punch 110.7% - 130.6% of the time. Lati@s aren't threatened and could set up CM/Sub if they wish. Gastrodon and Vaporeon will status Hitmonlee and absorb its blows.

Hitmonlee doesn't belong in OU. It's much easier to list out the OU Pokemon that aren't threatened by Unburden Hitmonlee than to actually list out what Pokemon you're beating that warrants Hitmonlee. When you consider a Pokemon for your OU team, you can't just say "so-and-so is fast and powerful so I'll put it in". You have to think about synergy and whether the Pokemon can even compete in that environemnt. Using Hitmonlee in OU hurts you because you're losing out on using other Pokemon that can do much more beneficial things for your team.

Has anyone considered using a Cell Battery with Unburden, or is it too unreliable for competitive play?

So you'd rely on predicting an Electric attack and hope that Hitmonlee survives it just to get a speed boost on a now damaged Hitmonlee without any item to boost its attacks? Does that sound like a good plan? And if you switch Hitmonlee in on a Volt Switch, your opponent will switch out to something that walls Hitmonlee, thus rendering your ability and item worthless.

Forming a competitive team is about synergy, not just throwing together Pokes in hopes that one of them will sweep (which Hitmonlee can't do much of seeing as how it can't even hold Life Orb).

I don't mean to have an animosity against Hitmonlee today, I just don't have the same optimism people seem to have about Pokemon single-handedly sweeping through teams. Today's metagame doesn't make that very easy nowadays.

 

[Jaetheho]

unreliable.
and theres a chance hitmonlee with die after the electric attack + residual damage.

cell battery unburden reminds me of electivire with motor drive.

good ole gyaravire.
now we can use gyaralee.
no.
too unreliable

 

[Lady Shinki]

Calling Hitmonlee "the best" anti-weather Pokemon is a lot of wishful thinking.
*snip*

It wasn't exactly what I said. What I should've stressed/highlighted/bolded/whatever instead of just typing so you'd read it, is that Hitmonlee is one of the best revengers/counters to OFFENSIVE weather. Obviously it's walled by bulky threats, because it's not something you'd ever try to use against sandstorm teams and bulky rain stall as it has problems no amount of setup or coverage would solve. I mean "rain dancer+kingdra+ludicolo+kabutops", or "ninetales+heatran+volc+chlorophyllers". If you have a weakness to OFFENSIVE weather, Hitmonlee is one of the best to take it down and clean up weakened OFFENSIVE weather teams because of its good coverage and access to Blaze Kick, which lets him tear most sun teams a new asshole, and with HJK generally having enough power to beat rain sweepers (with Stone Edge as coverage, and EQ being a potential second move just to beat toxicroak and tentacruel). Most teams are bulky offense, but Hitmonlee is still capable of cleaning up vs. teams that have Gliscor, Reuniclus, and Jellicent trapped and eliminated. Scizor, Lucario, and co. that have priority generally just give teammates opportunity to set up on them as they're forced to use priority to steal tempo from Hitmonlee, but they only work if the opponent sacrifices a pokemon or they switch in on Fake Out. Hitmonlee is a lategame cleaner in the same way something like ScarfChomp is a lategame cleaner (yeah scarfchomp is much more versatile, but you get the idea since its hjk is similar in power to chomp's outrage).

 

[Machi]

Most teams are bulky offense, but Hitmonlee is still capable of cleaning up vs. teams that have Gliscor, Reuniclus, and Jellicent trapped and eliminated. Scizor, Lucario, and co. that have priority generally just give teammates opportunity to set up on them as they're forced to use priority to steal tempo from Hitmonlee, but they only work if the opponent sacrifices a pokemon or they switch in on Fake Out. Hitmonlee is a lategame cleaner in the same way something like ScarfChomp is a lategame cleaner (yeah scarfchomp is much more versatile, but you get the idea since its hjk is similar in power to chomp's outrage).

Not when you consider the coverage Chomp's Outrage (allowing Chomp to plow through Reunculus & Jellicent) provides in conjunction with EQ (both of which are STABS) in addition to his bulk which Hitmonlee lacks. That's not even taking into account the blessings of resistances which Garchomp's typing provides him, which also gives him switch in opportunities. Its quite a stretch to compare the two.

Problem with the whole late game sweeper is as noted earlier such conditions apply to a plethora of Pokemon, of whom have access to items to help ensure better reliability for their sweep and net more crucial KO's thanks to the boost given. Not exactly too convinced of what Hitmonlee has over the rest of the late game sweepers, lack of an item providing recovery or a power boost doesn't exactly help its case either. Sure it has speed but as other's have pointed out the power aspect is questionable, and coverage too in getting past common mons that you may easily see late game (Gliscor, Reunculus, Skarmory, U-Turn/Volt-switchers). Doesn't help either that it should be obvious WHY you'd be using Hitmonlee in OU so that it is quite a cinch to predict its set (especially with certain pinch berries not being available yet). Not that Hitmonlee is necessarily unviable in OU just that it will pose difficulty to use and at times may be situational but hey point of unburden was that it could be used in OU, not necessarily that it would shine or excel in the tier as it clearly has more checks and counters in OU as compared to RU. Though it is getting quite a stretch - I can see it as a viable revenge killer as Katakiri posted but as an anti-weather Grammarian pretty much summed it up.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

That's one thing Hitmonlee can do that's unique, but I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't warrant usage. Unburden has many flaws that make sweeping very inconsistent:

-The effects can happen in a battle only once and disappear after switching out
-For the speed gain to work, you can't use an item (a travesty to sweepers who require Life Orb or Choice Band to do real damage)

These two facts cripple Hitmonlee's potential to sweep. A Pokemon with Agility and Life Orb would even make a better sweeper than Hitmonlee with Unburden. 120 base attack isn't exactly threatening enough to work alone without an item. And even if the stat-boosting berries were to be released in the future, a Substitute set to get Hitmonlee's HP to 1 is flawed what with Sandstorm's dominating presence in OU and with so many Pokemon having priority.

While an interesting idea, the gimmick of this ability can't justify Hitmonlee's usage in OU, I fear.

Pretty much this is what I think, he can be extremely useful, but so can quagsire and that doesn't make him OU.

Once he switch's out, he loses his big advantage. His biggest usage would be for revenge killing something like DD multiscale Dragonite (fake out, stone Edge) or HJK on a scarf haxorus.

He has utility, he has some usage, he CAN be used, but like I said, that could be said about nearly every pokemon. He just happens to be slightly more useful then most of those kinds of pokemon.

 

[Xephyr]

Next these people will be saying Life Orb Ninjask is incredible because you can protect for the speed boost and OHKO Nasty Plot Celebi with X-Scissor OMG!!!!!11 it's so fast and strong!!