Ho-oh – Is it truly an Uber?

[Jetx]

You have listed very few, if any, counters not 2HKO'd by Thunderbolt / UnSTABed CB moves, or screwed over by being Burnt. This is COMPLETELY IGNORING that your argument for OU is based on the fals premise that things are made Uber if they have no counters, which is just one of the reasons people voted Chomp banned. Counters aren't even good responses anyway.

This is because a counter doesn't need to be able to take more than 2 hits as long as it can hit back and beat Ho-oh. According to some of the arguments I've seen against me so far, even Bulky Waters hate to get burned now - what doesn't hate to get burned? Everything hates a 12% health loss at the end of every turn, but these things aren't completely ruined by it. The main reason I keep mentioning counters is because counters are effectively how things end up fainting - what else faints a pokémon you don't have a counter for aside from residual damage (which is a big problem for Ho-oh already)? I don't understand what you mean by that comment.

As far as things that can actually take hits from a mixed Ho-oh, probably the best "counters" of the lot... [alphabetical and grouped with tier] Ho-oh doesn't have much for Flygon and it can hit back at it with Stone Edge, already outspeeding it the process; Hariyama and its Thick Fat I have mentioned; Lickilicky takes barely anything though most physical sets hate a burn, it still walls it regardless (CB SF would hit hard, but something like a Curser could boost up against Mixed sets and Rest off burns); Ludicolo gets more back from Leech Seed than it loses from Burn and has Rain Dance to weaken Sacred Fire and boost Surf, as well as putting it in danger from Swift Swimmers; Porygon2 is bulky enough to take its hits and can Pressure stall thanks to Trace; Regirock walls them all easy and would do well to be running Resttalk anyway; Rhyperior I've already done; Tauros can Intimidate and hit back hard with Stone Edge, though it won't be coming in on Sacred Fire; Uxie basically walls it and can set up SR, use Yawn, use Toxic, whatever; Umbreon I have already covered... Onto OU: [Blissey can wall all special sets aside from Calm Minder if it lacks Toxic], Cresselia walls Ho-oh without any trouble; Deoxys-S and its Cosmic Wall set can take Ho-oh on, and a Taunt / Reflect / Light Screen / Recover variant can wall it (even with Burn) and pave the way for lots of new counters to come in with beefed up defences and a Taunted foe; Dragonite can take hits and Lum Berry protects it from that lucky Sacred Fire burn; Kingdra wins and I don't need to explain that; Salamence is in the same boat as Dragonite though only BulkyMence could take Ancientpowers and Lum Berry is a rare site on it; Thick Fat Snorlax beats them all easily; Swampert I have already covered; Ho-oh with Toxic walls just about every other Ho-oh despite not being too good itself, and Zapdos with Thunder Wave just needs one turn of paralysis to beat it with Thunderbolt, though it's risky because Burn could be annoying.

That's all I got on those two tiers, excluding Bulky Waters as they hate T-bolt. There are tons more "riskier" counters that can switch in on certain moves and OHKO back, but yes.

@Skyshroud: How am I not listening to reason?
I'm not the only person who is arguing for Ho-oh to be tested, it's not Smogon vs. Jetx.

 

[umbarsc]

Can we stop posting its strengths and declaring it uber?

Posting its weaknesses and declaring it testable (which does NOT mean they are arguing it as OU), on the other hand, is a perfectly valid argument. Testing means that you haven't decided on its tier status yet, that you are going to see how well it performs. If it has enough weaknesses that makes it at all questionable, then there is a perfectly valid argument to test it.

I'm not saying that every Pokemon with any flaws deserves testing, but that's only due to "time restraints" (not exactly the right way to phrase it, but the point stands).

The fact that it will almost always be taking 50% on the switch-in and has an exploitable 4x weakness is enough for me. A Burned Rhyperior will still be striking a 50% Ho-oh hard with STAB Rock Slide (or Earthquake on the Roost). Ho-oh will make Stealth Rocks practically obligatory, but, I'll let you in on a little secret, they already are.

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

Ho-Oh is not uber, for birth of Stealth Rock, Gyarados, Suicune.
Before raising him the ban it needs to make a will, a phenomenon doesn't seem me but not even a NU.

 

[Kira]

This is because a counter doesn't need to be able to take more than 2 hits as long as it can hit back and beat Ho-oh.

Completely wrong.

Even if it does outspeed, Ho-Oh can do a magical thing called switching. They switch to a Pokemon that forces your Ho-Oh counter out. Now they switch Ho-Oh back in later. If you can't take that second hit you can't switch into Ho-Oh. Thus that Pokemon is not a counter.

Ho-Oh is not uber, for birth of Stealth Rock, Gyarados, Suicune.
Before raising him the ban it needs to make a will, a phenomenon doesn't seem me but not even a NU.

Your post doesn't even make sense. First of all from what is understandable, Stealth Rock does not hurt Ho-Oh as much as you think. It has ways to work around that weakness. Maybe you should actually read arguments before spouting your own. Now about the second part. Did you honestly just hint that Ho-Oh is not even decent for NU? If you really think that then wow, I don't even know what to say.

 

[cim]

I fail to see how listing flaws and calling it not Uber has any more merit than listing its strengths and calling it Uber, umbarsc. Every Pokémon can be made to sound bad with a series of completely true statements except Arceus, just as any Pokémon can be made to sound good with a series of completely true statements.

The problem here is that we don't know what we're arguing, because so far the definition of Uber is "what people vote to be in the Uber tier." We have stuff ranging from Wobbuffett, who had less of an impact on the metagame than any Suspect or Uber, banned for... uh... being non-competitive or something. We have Garchomp banned by strict vote, so we don't know why. Do we use "centralization"; if it's used too much and forces other usage to an arbitrary extent it's Uber? Do we use "no counters", an inherently flawed premise? What is it that we argue?

Personally, I'm for a usage-based Uber ban, assuming there's some way we can show mathematically that the metagame has been centralized too much. Great Sage said something like what I'd like to do.

So yeah, what are we arguing here? If I cared enough to write a good standalone argument, I'd say that Ho-oh's entry into OU would cause very significant metagame change, simply because he is very hard to handle through counters or otherwise. Whether or not it is more significant than acceptablew or whether or not his true strength will be hidden because he "fits the mold" (if a Pokémon "fits the mold" in a metagame, it means that the metagme is already based on valid responses to it) is the big question here, which no amount of arguing would get.

 

[1059860]

Can we stop posting its strengths and declaring it uber?

Posting its weaknesses and declaring it testable (which does NOT mean they are arguing it as OU), on the other hand, is a perfectly valid argument. Testing means that you haven't decided on its tier status yet, that you are going to see how well it performs. If it has enough weaknesses that makes it at all questionable, then there is a perfectly valid argument to test it.

I'm not saying that every Pokemon with any flaws deserves testing, but that's only due to "time restraints" (not exactly the right way to phrase it, but the point stands).

The fact that it will almost always be taking 50% on the switch-in and has an exploitable 4x weakness is enough for me. A Burned Rhyperior will still be striking a 50% Ho-oh hard with STAB Rock Slide (or Earthquake on the Roost). Ho-oh will make Stealth Rocks practically obligatory, but, I'll let you in on a little secret, they already are.

No they are not. They're right now RECOMMENDED to have on a team, but without it, a strong team would still do perfectly fine. Weather/Fake Out can be two of the many things to take down Focus Sash. With Ho-Oh in OU, it will not be just "practically obligatory" but literally completely obligitory if you don't want to be swept.

I'm not against testing, but I'm just saying, the results is already pretty much out there. If Garchomp can make to Uber with its 80 less BST, I'm sure Ho-Oh can stay there with its Sacred Fire and 680 BST. Regardless of its 4x Rock weakness in comparison to Garchomp's Ice Weakness. One difference for sure: Ho-Oh has Roost/Recover.

If people simply start teams with Ho-Oh, with Charti Berry, it will be quite nice. I wouldn't doubt if a sudden murder of Aerodactyls or TrickScarf Azelf with Stealth Rock will be common leads.

 

[Jetx]

Even if it does outspeed, Ho-Oh can do a magical thing called switching. They switch to a Pokemon that forces your Ho-Oh counter out. Now they switch Ho-Oh back in later. If you can't take that second hit you can't switch into Ho-Oh. Thus that Pokemon is not a counter.

You have a very good point there, so it's a good thing I didn't try to get away with listing some of those. On the other hand, this logic actually applies less to Ho-oh than it does to any other pokémon, because something as scared of Stealth Rock as Ho-oh is won't want to be doing too much switching.

You're right, though.

On a different subject, a DualScreen Deoxys with Recover is another thing that walls Ho-oh, as are many other things that can set up screens. Interestingly, UU is actually full of counters for it (please don't misinterpret this as me suggesting it should ever go to UU, haha) like Thick Fat Miltank who is complete with Heal Bell, along with Gastrodon who is basically a Swampert that swaps Roar and Stealth Rock for Recover, and then there's things like Cradily which can Toxistall it without a trouble in the world. It's quite surprising to look deeper and see all the things that could be a trouble for it.

 

[Jibaku]

Most of the counters you listed, however, can not compete with Sacred Fire/Whirlwind/Safeguard/Roost Ho-oh, though. With SR and Spikes support killing Ho-oh is a pain. You can't status Ho-oh as long as Safeguard is up, and Ho-oh can outstall Rhy's EQs and Stone Edges with Roost if it's burned (unless there's a CH). Whirlwind just runs over potential threats such as Suicune who'd otherwise love to set up on it.

 

[lilyhollow]

I fail to see how listing flaws and calling it not Uber has any more merit than listing its strengths and calling it Uber, umbarsc.

That isn't what he said. Testable does not equal "not uber." If it did, the majority of our current suspects wouldn't currently be in the Uber tier.

 

[chaos 9]

Deck Knight, I love how you just call my argument trolling and insult me personally for my opinions. Thanks for that it really shows how smart you are. Ho-oh is good. I know that. But I find that is like skymin. It has 4-5 potentially good sets but they are all countered easily by somthing. You can't run all the sets at one time. Sacred fire has 8 pp and btw Deck Knight, I meant add protect on a PRESSURE pokemon. You just go and insult me. I love that kind of argument /sarcasm. Toxic is Ho-oh's second worst enemy after stealth rocks and they both hamper it to no end. If Ho-oh is hit by toxic, it is dead. If you run rest to take away the weakness to it, he is demolished by stone edge while it is sleeping. If you run sleep talk, it has so little pp and variety of moves, it will be walled and stalled. You can see where I'm going with this. Good sets, no standout one. All wallable.

 

[umbarsc]

Edit: ugh how do you get rid of this annoying smiley thing

Completely wrong.

Even if it does outspeed, Ho-Oh can do a magical thing called switching. They switch to a Pokemon that forces your Ho-Oh counter out. Now they switch Ho-Oh back in later. If you can't take that second hit you can't switch into Ho-Oh. Thus that Pokemon is not a counter.

In the situation you described, Ho-oh will usually be either dead or at 1 HP, allowing for an easy revenge-kill. That's assuming you can get three Sacred Fire hits to kill off their counter, mind you.

I fail to see how listing flaws and calling it not Uber has any more merit than listing its strengths and calling it Uber, umbarsc. Every Pokémon can be made to sound bad with a series of completely true statements except Arceus, just as any Pokémon can be made to sound good with a series of completely true statements.

Uh, how closely did you read what I said? I tried my hardest to deter this kind of comment when I said "declaring it testable (which does NOT mean they are arguing it as OU)"

So yeah, what are we arguing here? If I cared enough to write a good standalone argument, I'd say that Ho-oh's entry into OU would cause very significant metagame change, simply because he is very hard to handle through counters or otherwise. Whether or not it is more significant than acceptablew or whether or not his true strength will be hidden because he "fits the mold" (if a Pokémon "fits the mold" in a metagame, it means that the metagme is already based on valid responses to it) is the big question here, which no amount of arguing would get.

I think what Obi said is a very good counter-argument to this. Change alone should not influence any tier decisions, because any newly introduced Pokemon to a metagame will have an impact. Centralization, however, can be valid evidence for tier placement (not proof, but evidence), but we can't know that Ho-oh will centralize until we actually test it.

No they are not. They're right now RECOMMENDED to have on a team, but without it, a strong team would still do perfectly fine. Weather/Fake Out can be two of the many things to take down Focus Sash. With Ho-Oh in OU, it will not be just "practically obligatory" but literally completely obligitory if you don't want to be swept.

Stealth Rocks are not just for Focus Sashes. Stealth Rocks turn many 3HKOs into necessary 2HKOs, they keep down Gyara/Mence/Zapdos/Shaymin-S etc., they basically remove wall's Leftovers for two turns, they rack up passive damage and prevent Pokemon from getting free switches, etc. They are very highly emphasized, so much that few teams without it will perform succesfully at this level of play. Ho-oh would create a greater emphasis on Stealth Rocks, but they already are omnipresent and emphasized.

And you don't necessarily need Stealth Rocks to beat Ho-oh, fyi.

 

[1059860]

Most of the counters you listed, however, can not compete with Sacred Fire/Whirlwind/Safeguard/Roost Ho-oh, though. With SR and Spikes support killing Ho-oh is a pain. You can't status Ho-oh as long as Safeguard is up, and Ho-oh can outstall Rhy's EQs and Stone Edges with Roost if it's burned (unless there's a CH). Whirlwind just runs over potential threats such as Suicune who'd otherwise love to set up on it.

Rather replace Safeguard with Earthquake so you can take out Heatran.

 

[Jibaku]

I'd rather stick with blocking status as Toxic murders Ho-oh much more than Heatran can (Stone Edge Heatran anyone?). Besides, Heatran is going to be worn down quickly by SR + Spikes (I'm basing this off my theoretical Ho-oh Spikes/SR team to abuse this with, so bear with me here) and Whirlwind is just going to keep pushing him out.

 

[Bran]

This is a weakness, not a strength; it's hard to know what's right to use and what isn't. It still has many counters.

Actually, having a HUGE movepool is a strength, not a weakness! Do we say this to the mix-sweepers that run rampant in OU? Infernape, for example, between all the suggested move lists, it lists a combination of 14 moves. Do we say that Infernape is horrible because of the 4 move syndrome? Absolutely not!! We fear it because it can hit very strong from either the physical or special attack damage.

Lucario is the same way. Between all the move sets, it has 17 moves listed! And do we say it's a horrible pokemon because of the four move syndrome?? Absolutely not!! Hell, many regard Lucario as one of the best pokemon in OU, mainly because you do not have a great idea of what will be thrown at you for massive damage!

If you look at the base offensive stats of Lucario and Ho-oh, they are somewhat similar:

Attack/Sp. Attack/Speed:

Lucario: 110/115/90
Ho-oh: 130/110/90

5 less sp. attack, same speed, but 20 more base attack, AND it has just the same amount of move customization! With these facts, I do not believe the 4 move syndrome should delare Ho-oh as a weakness, when we have two to the top offensive sweepers in OU that suffer the same thing but get praised for their immense sweeping capabilities!!

 

[chaos 9]

Yes but Ho-oh cannot boost his attack 2+ and then sweep with a priority move. They are not comparable simply because they have similar stats/usable moves. Fighting is a better STAB than fire and also, you didn't mention that lucario take a grand total of 3% from rocks. That is a big advantage over Ho-oh's 50%.

Also Jibaku, that set is just annoying. It will rack up spikes/sr yes, but to set all that up your team would basically have to be all spikers and spiners and Ho-oh.

 

[Deck Knight]

Yes but Ho-oh cannot boost his attack 2+ and then sweep with a priority move. They are not comparable simply because they have similar stats/usable moves. Fighting is a better STAB than fire and also, you didn't mention that lucario take a grand total of 3% from rocks. That is a big advantage over Ho-oh's 50%.

Also Jibaku, that set is just annoying. It will rack up spikes/sr yes, but to set all that up your team would basically have to be all spikers and spiners and Ho-oh.

You mean you'd need to fit Forretress and Ho-oh on the same team?

Sounds extremely difficult... Don't know how you'll be able to do it.

And the reason I thought you were trolling is your ridiculous hyperbole on Sacred Fire's PP/BP and the Toxic Bulky Water wins 99% bits. That was idiotic, and you know it was, so I didn't bother giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Bran]

also, you didn't mention that lucario take a grand total of 3% from rocks. That is a big advantage over Ho-oh's 50%.

What I was saying is that the 4 move syndrome of Ho-oh shouldn't be as much as a disadvantage as what many other people are saying and suggesting. True, it can't boost it's stats with swords dance or nasty plot, but it at least has calm mind to work with for the special attack or tanking set. I was just trying to show that Ho-oh unpredictability with so many usable moves should be more of a positive rather than a negative similar to the sweepers like infernape and lucario and their immense variety of moves, yet they are considered severe threats.

I wasn't, at all, talking about the stealth rock debate, because that is practically the ONLY reason why Ho-oh is in this discussion of demotion to OU. So many people have argued about this factor, and I am leaving that main point of discussion to other people. I was just trying to prove my point against a few posts on this thread that his diverse move pool is actually a good thing rather than a bad thing. That is all.

 

[Darth Meanie]

The OP showed how ineffective Ho-Oh Calm Mind is. If you can show a better Calm Minding Ho-Oh, then by all means.

I think that the biggest threat Ho-Oh can make is when he enters the battle, because you don't know what Ho-Oh it is. This is where 4 Moveslot Syndrome works to its advantage, it can theoretically deal with anything. Once the opponent knows the set though, it becomes much easier. Not easy, but it becomes managable with a good player. Obviously if your switch-ins are dead you're in a very rough spot, but its that way with most pokemon.

The question to me is whether or not Ho-Oh can break through a team well enough and use its movesets' ambiguity to its advantage; if the immediate threat is enough to destabilize the opponent unfairly. I don't think we know this or not.

 

[Jibaku]

I meant lead with Spikes suicide Deoxys, then go to Ho-oh later. There will be an anti spinner, and possibly Scizor to get rid of Cress, and the rest two undecided at the moment. It is by no means perfect, and as I said it is purely theoretical, so it may not work in practice. I'm really unsure what the common leads are in OU nowadays, since I don't play OU anymore.

 

[chaos 9]

Deck Knight you can just stop now. Those things were not idiotic, you have no right to insult me, I was using exagerated examples and you know it. Just stop insulting people for stating their opinions. It reflects badly on your reputation. How would you like it if I call every post of yours a troll because I don't like your opinions or examples? Yeah, say you don't care but you do. I suggest this stops here if we don't want infractions.

Back on topic, Ho-oh is not overly powerful, and I think hariyama stops just about any set as it can run guts OR thick fat to totally disable the "godly" sacred fire. Also, a suicune switching in takes about 20% from sacred fire, and wastes 2 pp. It can then outspeed if it runs some speed, as it has base 85 speed, and sub for another pp waste if it is choiced, a free sub on a switch if it switches, or a scouting sub to find out it's set. Once you figure the set out, it is now a lot easier to counter.

 

[Kira]

Deck Knight you can just stop now. Those things were not idiotic, you have no right to insult me, I was using exagerated examples and you know it.

You aren't supposed to use exaggerated examples in debates.

 

[Thorns]

Long, but I read it. My opinion is that if Ho-Oh were to be moved to OU, every team would have to carry a counter. Yes, Stealth Rock cuts its immense HP in half, but Ho-Oh can still rain fiery death down on a team with no bulky water. Most Pokemon that can OHKO it are slower and are likely to be hit hard in return.

However, I originally (but not openly) disagreed with Garchomp being moved to Ubers, but my mind has changed. I'm all for testing un-ubering Ho-Oh, but I'm not overly confident that it will be downgraded.

 

[Bran]

However, I originally (but not openly) disagreed with Garchomp being moved to Ubers, but my mind has changed. I'm all for testing un-ubering Ho-Oh, but I'm not overly confident that it will be downgraded.

However, despite my opinion of Ho-oh being too powerful for OU, I would love to test it anyway. I feel the same way as you, Thorns, but the testing of a pokemon with the 2nd highest overall base stats in a non-uber metagame does intrigue my interest.

 

[McGrrr]

Ho-oh has base 130 attack

The Kingler comment served no objective purpose. 130 base attack is *huge*, end of.

Its most broken move has only 100 BP, whereas a hell of a lot of pokémon's best have the near unwallable Outrage and its 120 BP.

Ho-oh's main STAB might "only" be 100 base, but it is SE against all the high defense steel pokemon that populate OU. It does not suffer from outrage lock, megahorn's rubbish coverage or close combat's stat drops.

Ho-oh can't sweep, really, and it is walled by a lot so people should stop pretending it isn't.

Why does it need to? Is there a checklist for uber that states "must be able to sweep"?

The main thing I am finding frustrating about this is that people don't realise that [random %] of Ho-oh's counters still counter it no matter what set it runs.

I think you are underestimating the benefit of 50% burn... only Milotic likes it.

[something about giga drain] things like DDSalamence and especially DDNite (entirely because bulky variants wall the hell out of Ho-oh, and offensive versions can take a few hits too - and DDNite often runs Lum Berry so it can set up as Ho-oh hopes for SF-burn-hax and then attack when the Lum is gone) are invited in to set up.

Yes, because Ho-oh works alone and it has no support at all... Ho-oh does not have to beat everything to to be broken, and 50% is hardly "hax". Is either dragon happy to switch in with that risk of burn? Lum berry means no leftovers so all damage racks up. I don't see why it can't run HPice instead of AP/GD anyway.

Well, Ho-oh has to run 252 HP / 252 Atk to be able to do any sort of decent damage with Sacred Fire

Damage is almost a secondary concern here. What is stopping a specs Ho-oh running sacred fire? That burn rate is simple too good to pass up.

...people aren't going to use something that requires as much support as Ho-oh does in all their teams if there will always be few things that can still stop it...

I absolutely disagree here. If Ho-oh became OU, I would build a team loosely around it and expect to win. I might lead with it, because that becomes an immediate dilemma for my opponent. Or I could lead with taunt Deoxys to delay stealth rock and find a way to bring Ho-oh into a favourable match up. Hell, who even cares about stealth rock? As long as Ho-oh is in play, I just need one good prediction or a lucky burn and I am crippling the opposing team. If you have any skill, Ho-oh is always at least punching a gaping hole that another team member can exploit.

...there are many ways to beat it. I would be willing to create a list of all the pokémon that could potentially win against Ho-oh if people still aren't convinced enough that it is at least a Suspect, though I have other things to do with my time and I don't think my arguments need any more justification than they already have.

Just name a few "counters" that enjoy the 50% burn rate when they try to switch into sacred fire.

*something about Pokemon beats Pokemon with super effective 120 base STAB attack*

*contrived scenario to "prove" your point*

*something about always outpredicting your opponent*

Ho-oh isn't impenetrable on the special side. The Offensive 0HP Ho-ohs are 2HKOd by a Raikou's Thunderbolt. The wall variants are 2HKOd as well by it if it has Specs or a Calm Mind. Raikou also isn't hugely bothered by Sacred Fire or its Burn and can waste 2 of its PP by switching into it.

Bulk is not about surviving multiple SE hits, it is about letting you switch into NVE hits, surviving multiple neutral hits and an SE hit in a pinch. Actually, name me *any* non-wall that survives consecutive 95 base SE STAB attacks from something with 115 base SA. Raikou doesn't mind switching into a 100 base STAB physical attack off a 130 base stat? Since... when? O_O

tl;dr the rest

I think the case for uber status boils down to this:

What on earth are you going to do if and when Ho-oh is on the field?

I disagree with any bulky water as a "counter" (are we forgetting that Ho-oh has thunderbolt access too?), because only Milotic likes the burn from sacred fire (actually, name ANY other potential switch that likes burn... maybe rest/talk Rhyperior/Swampert/Cresselia but that is not so much "like" as "tolerates").

 

[chaos 9]

um, hariyama counters just about every set and with guts, it welcomes the burn. It can whirlwind Ho-oh, reinstating its fear of rocks. Stone edge it, and not be 2hkoed (i think) by any of it's moves.