Honchkrow Suspect Discussion

[alexwolf]

You listed a few of Pokemon that counter Honchkrow, and while we probably missed some, presumably (that is, you can do the calcs yourself...) almost every other Pokemon loses to it.

4 pokes as counters are a few counters? As said before Rhydon, Regirock, Aggron, Klinglang and Stunfisk all counter the SubRoost Moxie set. If Honchkrow doesn't have sub and has HP Ground then Regirock with some S.Def works, SubWisp Rotom absolutely counters you since you have no sub to block WoW, Stunfisk counters, Physically defensive Cresselia with T-Wave counters, Rhydon with some S.Def counters, Ferroseed can Leech Seed and T-Wave you and avoids a 2hko from BB so it also counters, Lanturn can tank BBs and HP Grounds and paralyze you with T-Wave. Are those enough? And please don't say that those pokes are worn down easily and have no recovery because Honchkrow will be losing health from BB,LO and SR too.
And no, almost all other pokes don't lose to Honchkrow. There are faster pokes that can take a SP and can ohko like Moltres, Kabutops and Hitmonchan (and others), faster pokes with priority like Entei and Hitmonchan and finally faster Substitue or status users (since the Krow you are talking about lack sub) like Rotom, Rotom-C, Uxie, Liligant etc. These are all good checks.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Some of the Pokemon you listed are generally useless other than for countering Honchkrow and you're belittling me for pointing that out?

I am not belittling you. I am saying to you to not stuck in things that don't matter. I mentioned 4 viable counters and the only think you have to tell me is how Stunfisk sucks? Ok use another one then. And pls don't mention Ampharos. I just mentioned him to say that he can work not as a legitimate counter. It can work but is most of the times outclassed. So pls let's focus to the point!

As long as your Brave Bird resist is absurdly bulky (Regirock or Rhydon) and doesn't die to Sucker Punch or HP.....that's been my point the entire time.

You didn't understand me. What i am saying is that it is not so easy for Honchkrow to get a kill. Not that it is easy to kill it. But if you have a Flying resistor alive, then you can bring something that threatens Honckrow after pivoting to your flying resistor. Of 'course the Honckrow user can guess too, but my point was that Honckrow doesn't get Moxie boosts as easy as you make it sound.

A major pet peeve of mine is that people see the shiny "not very effective" all of the sudden assume "oh it's a counter". No, that's not true. Not even most of the time. What you're suggesting is that carrying a non specific flying-type resist is going to let you get around Honchkrow but as you've seen that's not the case. There are a lot of resists that do counter Honchkrow but lots don't.

Noone said that every single flying resistant poke can switch into Honchkrow. That's a given. This is like saying that because Medicham resists Rock, it can switch into CBTar's SE. But there are enough flying resistant pokes in the tier that have other uses except dealing with Krow.

Honchkrow's wall breaking power isn't even the main selling point. It's the sweeping and revenge killing potential with Sucker Punch.

I think we all agree with this!

 

[Heysup]

4 pokes as counters are a few counters? As said before Rhydon, Regirock, Aggron, Klinglang and Stunfisk all counter the SubRoost Moxie set. If Honchkrow doesn't have sub and has HP Ground then Regirock with some S.Def works, SubWisp Rotom absolutely counters you since you have no sub to block WoW, Stunfisk counters, Physically defensive Cresselia with T-Wave counters, Rhydon with some S.Def counters, Ferroseed can Leech Seed and T-Wave you and avoids a 2hko from BB so it also counters, Lanturn can tank BBs and HP Grounds and paralyze you with T-Wave. Are those enough? And please don't say that those pokes are worn down easily and have no recovery because Honchkrow will be losing health from BB,LO and SR too.
And no, almost all other pokes don't lose to Honchkrow. There are faster pokes that can take a SP and can ohko like Moltres, Kabutops and Hitmonchan (and others), faster pokes with priority like Entei and Hitmonchan and finally faster Substitue or status users (since the Krow you are talking about lack sub) like Rotom, Rotom-C, Uxie, Liligant etc. These are all good checks.

@ Bolded.........

Those counters are worn down easily and have no recovery.

I'm not talking about Honchkrow coming in 5-6 times and killing them, I'm talking about them taking residual damage, other weak attacks while setting up SR or something, AND 1-2 Honchkrow attacks. Honchkrow still 3HKOes most of those Pokemon with JUST Brave Bird, and of course, the set changes a lot too.

And if you think even half of the Pokemon checks you listed (Uxie, Rotom-C, Choice Rotom, or Lilligant are taking a (+1?) Sucker Punch then you're mistaken.

I am not belittling you. I am saying to you to not stuck in things that don't matter. I mentioned 4 viable counters and the only think you have to tell me is how Stunfisk sucks? Ok use another one then. And pls don't mention Ampharos. I just mentioned him to say that he can work not as a legitimate counter. It can work but is most of the times outclassed. So pls let's focus to the point!

Not the point. Even if the "it has counters" argument was valid you still don't have enough viable ones for it to matter. Stunfisk and company shouldn't even be thought of as valid counters because of their uselessness outside of beating Honchkrow.

But if you have a Flying resistor alive, then you can bring something that threatens Honckrow after pivoting to your flying resistor. Of 'course the Honckrow user can guess too, but my point was that Honckrow doesn't get Moxie boosts as easy as you make it sound.

It's kind of unclear what you're saying here. I'm taking this to mean you can switch something into Brave Bird then switch it out to take the other attack? First of all, good luck switching around Honchkrow, because if you don't force it out I promise something will die. Second, Pursuit makes it quite easy to pick up a Moxie boost. Sucker Punch is an amazing revenge killing tool, and that also gives you a nice boost. Pretty common situations and pretty easy to create.

I think we all agree with this!

I'm sure, but my point was that you're already scrambling refuting just Honchkrow's wall breaking abilities....nevermind its quite common impossible-to-stop late game sweeps.

 

[Nails]

SubWisp Rotom can come in risk losing (Substitute, Night slash) or at best take 37.82 - 44.73% from Brave Bird, putting it in danger of being KOed next switch in (assuming it switches into SR both times). It's not like SubWisp Rotom is so threatening that Honchkrow can't switch out.

I'm also not sure what common variant you're talking about....but most Honchkrow I've seen carry HP Grass, Ground, or Superpower.

The only way Honchkrow wins is if it has night slash, which is not even close to standard. if it subs on the switch, it's already down to 50% from sr and sub. rotom can substitute 4 times and honchkrow will lose more than 50% from bb recoil, so it is forced to roost or die brave birding. Once it roosts you have a sub up and can safely wisp it.

 

[Mazinger]

Hi

In lack of a better opening, I'll just start with saying that I'm not sure honchkrow is broken, so if nothing convinces me otherwise now (which, let's face it, is rather unlikely this late in the stage) I'll be voting no ban on it. While it's true that most of its counters/checks are limited in variety by having very similar roles (regirock, rhydon, Steelix) or are rather ...bad when it comes to things other than beating Honchkrow (Stunfisk), there are enough of them, along with other points, to justify it staying in the tier, in my opinion. Aside from being counterable, Honchkrow is also easily worn down between substitute, LO and Brave Bird and has a hard time switching in as well as finding a free turn to roost, so you can definitely play around it. I really don't have much to say about honchkrow; it's hard to counter, but it also dies quickly and doesn't have many opportunity to get in, so I'm really on the fence on this. So instead of going ahead and banning it prematurely I'd rather have it around a bit longer to be sure.

 

[Amire]

Lets say Crow's most dangerous set is this:

Sucker Punch
Hidden power ground
Brave Bird
Roost

Cresselia for example, can counter this set easily. 2 brave birds can not kill even after SR damage, and taking a +1 moxie boost into is irrelevant, because who the hell would give crow a free moxie boost? Even if your pokemon will die to hazards on the next switch in, it's better to have it as a fodder than giving your opponent a decent chance of sweeping your entire team. If it has pusuit, it is going to go down pretty quick and even then Cresselia can switch in, take a sucker punch and OHKO with an uninvested ice beam. So thats pretty much a counter with reliable recovery and viability in the metagame to Heysup's Honchcrow set. Weezing and stunfisk also works the same to the set (Both being able to also counter a handfull of other attackers), night slash or not and has non reliable recovery in pain split and a rest talk set that actually works well in this metagame.

If it has night slash or taunt, there is of course another story, but if it lacks roost, it's going to be worn down very quickly and having qwilfish on your team for example, can easily force it out thus forcing it to take more SR damage and recoil. I know that could be said about Stararaptor in UU as well, but that poke had better movepool, higher speed/attack and fewer counters.

The sub roost crow is pretty bad in the current metagame, as a lot of teams overprepare for it and it's countered by tons of defensive walls.

I'm extremely tired, so I apologize if my post only makes half sense. I'll edit it later.

 

[alamaster]

If teams are overpreparing for something, doesn't that mean it's usually broken?

 

[alexwolf]

@ Bolded.........

Those counters are worn down easily and have no recovery.

I'm not talking about Honchkrow coming in 5-6 times and killing them, I'm talking about them taking residual damage, other weak attacks while setting up SR or something, AND 1-2 Honchkrow attacks. Honchkrow still 3HKOes most of those Pokemon with JUST Brave Bird, and of course, the set changes a lot too.

Ok point accepted. But again remember that Krow isn't immortal too. SR weakness along with LO and BB recoil can take its toll quite easily. And when it roosts, it becomes very vulnerable especially without Sub protecting it.

And if you think even half of the Pokemon checks you listed (Uxie, Rotom-C, Choice Rotom, or Lilligant are taking a (+1?) Sucker Punch then you're mistaken.

You missed the point. These guys are checks because they can avoid Sucker Punch by using a status move like T-Wave or WoW, thus crippling Krow, and are faster so they can avoid the deadly BB. Also i never mentioned Choice Rotom but even if it is choiced it can avoid SP by tricking his item to Krow. This is also why without Sub, physically defensive Cresselia is one of the best Krow counters. Because it can tank 2 BB, has reliable recovery and can status you, thus avoiding SP. There is a reason why the SubRoost Moxie Krow is the most popular and this is because it is the most effective. And generally Sub and Sucker Punch is a killer combo!

Not the point. Even if the "it has counters" argument was valid you still don't have enough viable ones for it to matter. Stunfisk and company shouldn't even be thought of as valid counters because of their uselessness outside of beating Honchkrow.

You are wrong. If Stunfisk is viable in RU then of 'course i will mention it. It is an option, which may fit well in your team so i shouldn't mention it just because you think it sucks?

It's kind of unclear what you're saying here. I'm taking this to mean you can switch something into Brave Bird then switch it out to take the other attack? First of all, good luck switching around Honchkrow, because if you don't force it out I promise something will die. Second, Pursuit makes it quite easy to pick up a Moxie boost. Sucker Punch is an amazing revenge killing tool, and that also gives you a nice boost. Pretty common situations and pretty easy to create.

Yes that is what i wanted to say... You will force it out when you bring in your check safely. But to do that you must pivot to your flying resistors. If the Krow user uses BB against your flying resistor instead of SP then you can kill it. But if the opponent does the same when you bring in your check then you are screwed.
Finally if you use Pursuit, you must either forfeit Krow's survivability, meaning that again any team with priority Krow will be killing 1 poke at most, or HP Ground so every rock and steel type is a counter.

I'm sure, but my point was that you're already scrambling refuting just Honchkrow's wall breaking abilities....nevermind its quite common impossible-to-stop late game sweeps.

Since i didn't quite get you i will say this. Krow's good qualites are strong priority, good trapping abilites and late game sweeping. I am talking about Moxie sets, since these sets are his most dangerous. Now if we talk about the mixed sets with Heat Wave / Superpower with Insomnia then we have a very good wallbreaker and sleep absorber, along with the priority part of 'course

 

[sheniqua]

Stunfisk and company shouldn't even be thought of as valid counters because of their uselessness outside of beating Honchkrow.

Honestly, if you haven't faced Molten Kyurem's Ban Stunfisk team then you probably shouldnt be commenting on the viability of Stunfisk. That team used Stunfisk to reach #1 easily and showed that it actually is a really solid pokemon, no matter how derpy it looks. 109/84/99 defenses aren't the greatest, but they are very solid for RU. It spreads paralysis and burns like a champ and can use resttalk very effectively.

 

[boo836]

You forgot to mention Aggron and Klinglang which both can fit easily in offensive teams. Now count the number of counters and you will see thath there are a lot. And offensive teams can use 2-3 of them in addition to the multitude of checks that Honchkrow has so...

You also forget to mention that Superpower easily breaks Aggron and Klingklang. 100% - 118.4% is what Jolly max attack Honch does to Shift Gear Klingklang. Yes Superpower is illegal with Moxie, but tbh I've been finding that using Honchkrow with Insomnia is more rewarding considering that it's immune to Sleep and has better coverage.

I'll admit though that I forgot completely about Lanturn though. It can't take on Naughty Night Slashes, but it does get past the most common set.

 

[alexwolf]

You also forget to mention that Superpower easily breaks Aggron and Klingklang. 100% - 118.4% is what Jolly max attack Honch does to Shift Gear Klingklang.

I'll admit though that I forgot completely about Lanturn though. It can't take on Naughty Night Slashes, but it does get past the most common set.

We were talking about Moxie sets which are the most dangerous. And these sets cannot have SuperPower. Also Lanturn does not counter standard Krow since Sucker Punch murders it. And you can't status it if it is behind a sub. But if you are using the set that Heysup mentioned, with HP Ground instead of Sub, then Lanturn is fine!

 

[Heysup]

Stunfisk is not a terrible Pokemon but it's use aside from beating Honchkrow is minimal....I've seen a couple and I can't even imagine why someone is using them for any other reason.

As far as I'm concerned, this argument is over:

You will force it out when you bring in your check safely. But to do that you must pivot to your flying resistors.

Case in point. Pretty much sums up why Krow is too good at both wall breaking and sweeping on its own.

 

[boo836]

We were talking about Moxie sets which are the most dangerous. And these sets cannot have SuperPower. Also Lanturn does not counter standard Krow since Sucker Punch murders it. And you can't status it if it is behind a sub. But if you are using the set that Heysup mentioned, with HP Ground instead of Sub, then Lanturn is fine!

Moxie is rather overhyped to me. MixKrow is almost impossible to come in on, and Moxie has limited coverage which doesn't really make it worth it a lot of the time.

Anyways, it seems that the only real way to beat Krow is to find out its set immediately. Or use Stunfisk/Regirock.

Just like Mence in DPP.

 

[alexwolf]

Moxie is rather overhyped to me. MixKrow is almost impossible to come in on, and Moxie has limited coverage which doesn't really make it worth it a lot of the time.

Anyways, it seems that the only real way to beat Krow is to find out its set immediately. Or use Stunfisk/Regirock.

Just like Mence in DPP.

To the surefire counters add Rhydon wiith a little S.Def investement, and SubWisp Rotom. These are 4 surefire counters for any Krow. If we go to individual sets more counters come to mind. Also keep in mind that in 5th gen counters are not the most important thing. Checks are. And Krow has a dozen of those. Nowhere near the Salamence case imo.

 

[boo836]

To the surefire counters add Rhydon wiith a little S.Def investement, and SubWisp Rotom. These are 4 surefire counters for any Krow. If we go to individual sets more counters come to mind. Also keep in mind that in 5th gen counters are not the most important thing. Checks are. And Krow has a dozen of those. Nowhere near the Salamence case imo.

Rhydon can't beat Mixedkrow, Rotom can't beat the Subroost set without making it a match of prediction, with max hp/defenses Rotom taking 50% from Brave Bird.

Mence also had dozens of checks lol.

 

[alexwolf]

Rhydon can't beat Mixedkrow, Rotom can't beat the Subroost set without making it a match of prediction, with max hp/defenses Rotom taking 50% from Brave Bird.

Mence also had dozens of checks lol.

Rhydon avoids a 2hko from any of Krow's moves and ohkoes even behind a sub with Rock Blast.

Now about SubWisp Rotom. If Krow uses Sub in the switch that it forces, which 99% of SubRoost Krows do, then it has 50% hp remaining after SR right? Rotom has 93,5 due to lefties.
Next turn you use sub as Krow breaks the sub with BB. Krow is not at 40% and you are at 75% due to lefties.
Repeat next turn and Krow is at 30% while you are at 56%.
Now if you take into account BBs recoil then Krow will be below 25% health which means that now you are free to WoW him because he can't Sub and you survive a BB from burned Krow which does ~ 30% to max HP Rotom. Then switch out and use Pain Split to recover later.
If Krow doesn't use Sub and goes for the BB he does ~60% to max hp Rotom. So after lefties and SR you have 34% health remaining. Next turn you can WoW and burn him while he fails to ko with a burned BB. The only case for Krow to win is to get great damage rolls twice with SR in play.

Mence had a dozen of checks but no viable counters. Porygon2 and Cresselia weren't useful in the meta and were used almost solely for countering Mence. And in 4th gen counters were very important, while now to as much.
Krow has many counters, along with many checks. He also plays very differently form Mence so i think that they are barely comparable, and i say barely and not incomparable just because they are both strong physical attacker that can go mixed.

 

[Heysup]

Mence had more checks than Honchkrow when it was banned, fyi. Not that it really matters. What really matters is that mence's checks were better, though it's pointless to try and compare them to closely.

 

[alexwolf]

Mence had more checks than Honchkrow when it was banned, fyi. Not that it really matters. What really matters is that mence's checks were better, though it's pointless to try and compare them to closely.

I didn't say that Krow has more checks. Just that Mence had fewer counters, and back then counters mattered way more than they do now.

 

[Oglemi]

Honchkrow was deemed unanimously not broken. Good discussion everyone.