How big is the rift between casual and competitive players?

[The Requiem]

((I'm not entirely sure that this thread goes here, if it's misplaced, I apologize.))

So here's my situation. I'm hosting a pokémon tournament at the upcoming Anime Festival Orlando convention. In my experience with cons most of the kids that are walkin around for pickup games are casual players. I've done these at cons before and have seen people walk up and read the rules sheet and go "Jeez man, why cant I use my Rayquaza?". As far as I can tell theres a bunch of people who know about simple game mechanics like EVs or STAB, but might not necessarily know things like how Hidden Power works.

So, what I want to do is make a set of bans and restrictions that might not necessarily let you sit down across the table from someone, whip out your uber squad and lay out your opponents squad with your retarded Arceus or whatever, but the hardcore rulesets that we live by as competitive players of the game might turn away a lot of people that I'd rather just come in and have some fun.

What I wanted was just a bit of insight about what you guys think before I grind pen to paper and come up with the ruleset for my tourney.

 

[Fatality]

Sleep Clause
DT/OHKO Ban
Wobb allowed
Deoxys not allowed (all forms, keep it simple)
No cover legendaries (bar suicune)
No Arceus (the event isn't out yet)

No need for species clause, and cover legends meaning those on the cover of a game... Lati's won't be a problem most won't have soul dew...

 

[Janenmori]

Make sure you do not allow anything like wondertomb, drought Infernape, stuff like that.

 

[da gold sun]

Sleep Clause
DT/OHKO Ban
Wobb allowed
Deoxys not allowed (all forms, keep it simple)
No cover legendaries (bar suicune)
No Arceus (the event isn't out yet)

No need for species clause, and cover legends meaning those on the cover of a game... Lati's won't be a problem most won't have soul dew...

Giratina, Mewtwo, Mew, ect would be allowed by the bolded statement because of the fact that they are not on covers (yet). I would just ban what we define as Ubers so far, possibly excluding Lati@s and borderline Uber/OU (except Deoxys). Checking for AR hacks might be a bit hard, because unless you have a method of checking yourself, everyones can lie and use them anyway; you'll have to figure that out yourself.

Anyway, this sounds cool; I wish ya good luck, Requiem. Who knows? Maybe you'll convince potential good users to come here for more competitive play!

 

[Thunderpup]

Well, there's always the potential for really smart players to show up using near-broken things unless you do all-or-nothing. If you allow non-cover legends, you're allowing mewtwo and mew to dominate the tournament, and as far as latios and latias, if they're seen I can almost guarantee they'll have soul dew. Casual players will bring their teams and not think about ways to exploit the rules. More advanced players will be.

A blanket ban would do good, but again, some people might feel alienated that they can't use ubers. If you allow ubers, casual players will be using legendaries, and advanced players will be using them too, but likely in lesser amounts. However, the advanced players with legends will destroy the weaker players with legends, so it's really up to you.

 

[Odinwolf]

Most casual players I end up playing with say that they want to play by the "No Legends" rule. That covers pretty much all of the Ubers, but also makes Celebi, Jirachi, Heatran, Cresselia, etc banned as well. It's not the BEST way to do it, but it will keep the n00bs from freakin' out about someone using Azelf.

Toss in a rule about OHKOs and Sleep Clause and you'll probably end up with a decent ruleset for a more casual event. Just in case, I would ban Wobbuffet too to keep the smart players from rolling over everyone.

 

[The Requiem]

The clauses that I want to use are pretty much given.

No DT/OHKO.
Sleep Clause.

I dont feel the need for species clause to even exist. If you wanna play the game like you're a NPC then go ahead.

As far as the banning of ubers goes, its not about what I feel like banning, but the ones I feel like letting loose, rather. The ones that I am thinking about using are the ones the community have been debating about for months.

Darkrai
Latios
Latias
Mew

I'm pretty much on the fence with Deoxys at this point, and I haven't even bothered to consider anything else. As far as Wobbuffet goes, it doesn't bother me, I wont be banning it.

With my timeslot for holding the tourney, I have two hours. Depending on my turnout I could do 3v3 until the finals. I considered running a doubles bracket alongside the singles, but I'm pretty sure that doubles isnt a very popular form of play.

Another thing that came to mind was the levels, I'm doing this using the cart rather than PBR so the matches can flow and we can not have a bunch of downtime while people wait to play. That way I can have as many people play as I want, rather then having to have a cap on signups. (I've seen that before, and the head of the tourney was doing dumb shit like banning explosion.)

Hacks, I'm not worried about. I personally don't give a damn how you got your pokémon, theres no reason to be a hardass about it unless you do stupid things like the aforementioned wondertomb.


Appreciate all the good luck wishes guys, I'm sure its gonna be good, because I've done it before. This time I just wanna do things a little differently to see how it goes. Create my own metagame if you will, I guess.

EDIT:

Just in case, I would ban Wobbuffet too to keep the smart players from rolling over everyone.

I'm avoiding dumbing the game down, if a smart player rolls over a noob they might be able to learn something from it. You cant get better by winning with handicaps.

 

[Lawman]

It might be best just to ban all legendaries?

EDIT: Or just do a rule that says something along the lines of "The Pokemon banned from the tourney include those banned from the Battle Tower, Latios and Latias

 

[Kittymew]

Darkrai is basically super-Gengar. I don't think it would be very appropriate to let that or Mew into the system. If Latias and Latios are used, obviously you have to ban Soul Dew. Still, I don't think it's a good idea - they're strictly better than a lot of things. Especially Mew.

Sleep Clause is a pain to get people to understand. PBR is nice in the sense that you can just force it mechanically, at least.

 

[Tracker]

I think that the rules from the Battle Tower (Item Clause, Ubers Banned, Species Clause) could be a good base to start from. No casual player is going to have 6 lefties to put on his stall team, so Item Clause is justified. The thing with Ubers would be understandable as those players would already be familiar with it in-game. Species clause doesn't have to be there, and I somehow doubt that someone will have more than 1 of a poke on a team.

Beyond the Battle Tower rules, DT/OHKO needs to be put in there. Everybody knows how much DT Blissey in Emerald them off, so I think it will be acceptable. Sleep Clause needs to be in there. Although I can guarantee that most non-competitive players do not appreciate the value of sleep (or switching, for that matter), you don't want some pro completely abusing Breloom.

Those are the rules I think you need to cover. Also, you must have to be able to define "hacking" perfectly. If someone disagrees with this, kick them out, or decide to face them first to show them who's boss. Send out a Wobbufett with toxic and recover and prove to them how stupid hacks are.

 

[Carl]

Playing by Battle Tower rules and then enforcing sleep clause would probably be sufficient. It would keep it simple because I'm sure most people that would want to play would have played BT at some point so they'd know the rules. Then sleep clause is really easy to just sort of slip in there. Make sure you inform people that Soul Dew isn't allowed... it doesn't work when you use it in the BT but it will in link battles.

 

[The Requiem]

I dont care about hacks as long as its something thats POSSIBLE. Like if you hack up a poke with all 31s, whatever, tis possible. A wobbuffet with Toxic and Recover isnt possible and that person would be DQ'd before the first match even starts. All I'm gonna have to do is check teams and movesets before the beginning and thats it. Dont enter if you do stupid shit, thats not hard, lol.

 

[IggyBot]

If you're on the fence about Deoxys, ban it. It's a lot easier from a hosts point of view to simply ban Deoxys outright, than say "Well this Deoxys form is allowed, but these other forms aren't".

So basically play by Battle Tower rules, throw in a ban on Latios and Latias along with Sleep/Evasion clauses, and you're good to go in my opinion.

 

[BlueCookies]

I would probably allow Mew and Darkrai, only because this is casual and a lot of casual players probably went to the Darkrai event and downloaded Pokemon ranch. I would also allow the Latis, although it's up to you if you want to allow Soul Dew or not. Also, unless the casual players got the latis from Emerald, they are going to have horrendous IV's because of the glitch in R/S. That will probably make them less dominating.

Lastly, enforce Sleep Clause and Species Clause, but not OHKO or Evasion clause. Sleep Clause is obvious, and you don't want someone to use multiple Garchomps, a few Tyranitars, you get the picture. Casual players like OHKO moves, I would know, I almost lost in the gamestop tourney to a Sheer Cold Articuno, and I doubt they want them banned. Evasion clause I'm iffy on, you can ban it if you want, I don't have too much of a preference, but I would probably allow it. Good luck, if I lived anywhere near Florida, I would definitely go, but I don't.

 

[ChocoboMog123]

I've seen many Pokemon tournaments at cons (and might go to AFO), and, as a rather competitive player, I find many con rulesets as completely alienating to competitive players.

I see rules like "No legends", "Only 3 switches per match" (seriously), no sleep clause, no evasion clause, et cetera and think, "Why should I play in this, even if I win, the small amount of money or random anime stuff just isn't enough incentive for such a lame tournament."

Sleep Clause is rather hard to enforce, as a host, but if playing on TV's through PBR, it should be much easier. You could simply put, "No legends except: <insert non-banned legends>", and leave stuff like Darkrai to casual matches before or after the tournament. The OHKO and Evasion clauses are rather easy to enfore, but if people feel they're too invasive... well, that's just something you'd have to decide for yourself.

Basically, please don't alienate competitive players in your attempts to attract casual players.

 

[Phizzlax]

I definitely agree with the "battle tower" rules + DT/OHKO/Sleep clauses. Ban Lati@s and you're good to go basically. What you really need to avoid is a list of rules that's complicated and unattractive. If you just say "basically battle tower" and then explain the subtle differences it's unlikely people will complain. Your only other option is anything goes (barring Arceus and event pokes if you want), which would honestly not be so bad. Usually the best players will still win, it just won't be as interesting.

 

[Tracker]

All I'm gonna have to do is check teams and movesets before the beginning and thats it.

I think that would anger a lot of people because they might think you are spying.

 

[The Requiem]

I think that would anger a lot of people because they might think you are spying.

Spying on what? I'm not competing in it, I'm hosting.

 

[froggy25]

I'm pretty sure that if you explain well what is the aim of sleep / freeze / ohko clauses, and why wobbuffet is banned, the casual players will understand.

We organize tournament in France with competitive rules, and they unite more than 100 persons in every tournament, so I think it's really not a problem if there is enough communication about your tournament.

 

[the_artic_one]

PBR is the way to go for tournaments simply because you can automatically enforce sleep/freeze clause.

 

[froggy25]

Yep, but perhaps he hasn't enough Wii for this tournament :(

 

[Kingdrom]

I would think that the ban list and restrictions should depend on what kind of tourney you are conducting. If it is 6 vs. 6 Singles, then you should go with standard OU ban + Celebi, Jirachi, Heatran, and Shaymin. I would think that the legendary trios in each version wouldn't be nearly overpowered despite how many of them will be used in the tournament. You could ban Rotom, but who is going to use him anyway. Throw in DT/OHKO clause, Sleep Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, basically BT rules, and you've got a good ruleset. I don't think Item Clause is necessary, and it may alienate some players who otherwise would have participated.

For doubles, you'll need a Darkrai ban if sleeping two pokemon at the same time is considered breaking Sleep Clause (required). You can be more lenient on the Doubles Rules because anyone smart will be using either a well-constructed team or a Protect+Explosion combo on their team. DT/OHKO aren't quite as important, but could be enforced.

Checking the teams before entering is a great idea. It deters cheaters before they can ruin the tournament. Either way, I don't know how important enforcing Freeze Clause is; it may be more trouble than its worth.

Anyways, good luck! You should definitely advertise this around other forums and Orlando to make sure there is a good turnout.

 

[n00dles]

I never found the majority of standard rules very complicated. If you want some rules that people can learn in about five seconds, then perhaps consider:

Sleep Clause - For a fun event like this, you don't want it ruined by people getting raped by Spore Spamming Brelooms and stuff.

Legendary Clause - This might be easier than listing the specific Ubers, making there less chance of people messing up.

No hacks ruled - At a convention, its more than likely you'll get kids showing up with their level one million Arceuses. Just saying hacked Pokemon are banned will deter most cheaters.

Evasion clauses can probably be ditched. A lot of the serious players won't have hax teams built, and I don't know anyone that really used Minimize, etc. on their ingame team. OHKO clause is up to you, it would be simpler without, but a couple of lucky Fissures or whatever may leave some people feeling cheated out.

Overall, I would say its really a matter of how serious you want the tournament to be. If you're expecting a lot of people with EV trained Pokes, etc. then they're more likely to be in tune with standard rules. If its going to be more 'in-game' teams, then I don't think it especially matters to be honest as none of them will be serious players.

I know it becomes harder to counter Garchomp without Cresselia, etc. but again, its really down to how serious you want it to be.

 

[-FL-]

Darkrai is basically super-Gengar.

Hate to disagree here, but Darkrai gets owned by Heracross.

On-topic, friendly rules will turn the tourney into a better one, which are:

- Sleep Clause.
- No Legends and Ubers (You will always find someone who doesn't like to play with things like Zapdos and Heatran allowed).
- No OHKO.
- No Evasion.

I find it both simple and casual enough to attract all kinds of players.

 

[Jibaku]

I prefer the Battle Tower rules over the no legendaries rule to be honest. Some of these players may be more familiar with such rules and therefore would agree to them. Besides, Soul Dewless Lati@s aren't uber imo, especially since Garchomp exists. However, I encourage the banning of Wobbuffet. Explain to them why it should be banned, and if nothing else works, show it to them.

Sleep Clause is a definite on. No one wants an Agility + Spore Smeargle to sleep their whole team

Evasion + OHKO is pretty bannable too. If they've been playing in the Battle Tower/Frontier, they'd know by now that these moves become a pain to deal with. Don't tell them that the BT/Frontier has a luck enhancer. Just...don't

Don't bother with the Deoxys forms.