Huntail (Analysis) Done Yo

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danilo

danilo

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[Overview]

<p>In DPP, Huntail could only dream of being used in the OU tier. Luckily, BW gave Huntail a wonderful gift in the form of Shell Smash, making Huntail only one of three Pokemon with access to both Shell Smash and Baton Pass. Once you factor in a good Defense stat, a decent Special Defense stat, and a good typing, Huntail can pass boosts like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunately, Huntail is not without faults. Due to its shallow offensive movepool, Huntail is utterly outclassed by its counterpart, Gorebyss, in the role of a Shell Smash sweeper. Additionally, Huntail's terrible Speed stat means that it will struggle to outspeed a majority of the OU tier even after a Shell Smash.</p>

[SET]
name: SmashPass
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Baton Pass
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Substitute
item: White Herb
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is Huntail's best shot at competing with the big boys in OU. The combination of Shell Smash and Baton Pass is the main reason to use Huntail, as passing ridiculous boosts to a sweeper makes it extremely difficult to wall. Waterfall is a reliable STAB move that can be used to hit hard after a Shell Smash, while Substitute shields Huntail from status. Additionally, if Huntail is able to pass both a Substitute and Shell Smash to a teammate, it's usually game over for the opponent.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is tailored to outspeed every unboosted Pokemon in the OU tier after a Shell Smash. HP is maximized to allow Huntail to better take hits, while the rest of the EVs are put into Defense so that Huntail can take physical hits a little better. An Impish nature allows Huntail to take advantage of its good Defense stat and take physical hits even better. A White Herb is used to negate the stat drops of Shell Smash, ensuring that Huntail and the Shell Smash receiver retain their bulk.</p>

<p>Pokemon that can set up dual screens, such as Azelf and Espeon, make for excellent partners to Huntail, as the screens ensure that Huntail will be able to pass a Shell Smash to a teammate. Espeon is also notable for its Magic Boucne ability, which enables it to thwart phazing moves such as Roar and Whirlwind, one of the biggest threats to this set. Gorebyss might seem like an odd partner, but they can be used on the same team to pass Shell Smash boosts multiple times. Pokemon that are able to sweep a team after receiving a Shell Smash are excellent partners for this set; examples include Heatran, Jirachi, Nidoking, and Salamence, all of whom can rip apart a team after receiving a Shell Smash. Thanks to its Unaware ability, Quagsire can defeat most Shell Smash recipients lacking Grass-type attacks. The likes of Terrakion and Hydreigon can make short work of Quagsire with their powerful moves, while Haxorus can bypass Unaware with its Mold Breaker ability and make short work of Quagsire.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>There aren't many other options Huntail can pull off successfully. Leftovers can be used to increase Huntail's longevity, but White Herb is needed to make sure that Huntail doesn't pass stat drops to its teammate. Huntail can attempt to utilize the Shell Smash boosts itself with a set of Shell Smash, Waterfall, Crunch, and Ice Fang, along with an EV spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, but it's outclassed by Cloyster in this role. The same applies to a mixed set of Shell Smash, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Crunch. Huntail can Baton Pass Barrier and Iron Defense boosts, but Shell Smash boosts are generally preferred.</p>

<p>Ice Beam can be used over Substitute to hit the many Dragon-types in OU, but it's generally better to just stick with Substitute so that you can pass a Substitute and a Shell Smash to a teammate. Crunch can be used to hit Jellicent and Slowbro, both of whom wall Huntail. Double-Edge can be used to provide decent neutral coverage in conjunction with Waterfall. Aqua Tail can be used over Waterfall, but consistency is preferred to power. Huntail can use Sucker Punch, but priority is generally not needed as Huntail is already very fast after a Shell Smash. Confuse Ray might allow Huntail to stop phazers, such as Skarmory and Vaporeon, who ruin this set. </p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Although Huntail is bulky, there are a number of threats that give it problems. Phazers such as Skarmory, Politoed, and Gyarados can use Whirlwind, Perish Song, or Roar respectively to prevent Huntail from passing Shell Smash or Substitute. Status inducers can cripple Huntail or its Shell Smash recipient; Breloom and Celebi deserve a special mention as they're able to break Huntail's Substitutes even if screens are in place, and then use either Spore or Thunder Wave on the Shell Smash recipient. Additionally, Celebi has access to Perish Song, which can ruin the SmashPass process. Most special attackers with a super effective STAB move, such as Virizion and Rotom-W, can take down Huntail. With dual screens support, however, Huntail can survive many of these super effective attacks. Fast users of Trick, such as Latios, can cripple Huntail if it manages to use Trick before Huntail uses Shell Smash. Fast users of Taunt, such as stallbreaker Mew and Prankster Sableye, destroy this set, as they can use Taunt before Huntail has a chance to set up. Quagsire's Unaware ability will neutralize any boosts Huntail's recipient has accumulated, making it a useful check.</p>
 
148 Speed EVs aren't enoug to outspeed everything in OU. Jolteon, Alakazam and Starmie are still faster, so 232 Speed EVs is the minimum to outspeed these.

(The log folder should be in "documents")
 
Funnily enough, I was using the Gorebyss - Huntail combination yesterday, which worked out decently.

This is a concern I've always had for Gorebyss, but what's with the extra 6 EVs in the defense? Unless they're tailored to survive a certain attack, they're not exactly making or breaking anything (Jolly Jirachi's Body Slam only deals 21.7% - 25.8% to Huntail, enabling it to set a sub with much ease).

These things aside, I'd like you to focus on the "why?" aspect. "Why" should a person consider Huntail over Gorebyss, who sports a larger and arguably less situational Special Attack? Huntail is certainly usable, but one will always ask "why?"
 
AccidentalGreed said:
Funnily enough, I was using the Gorebyss - Huntail combination yesterday, which worked out decently.

This is a concern I've always had for Gorebyss, but what's with the extra 6 EVs in the defense? Unless they're tailored to survive a certain attack, they're not exactly making or breaking anything (Jolly Jirachi's Body Slam only deals 21.7% - 25.8% to Huntail, enabling it to set a sub with much ease).

These things aside, I'd like you to focus on the "why?" aspect. "Why" should a person consider Huntail over Gorebyss, who sports a larger and arguably less situational Special Attack? Huntail is certainly usable, but one will always ask "why?"
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Accidental, I honestly have no clue what the 6 extra EVs in defense are for.

The answer to your "why" question is not because Huntail is superior to Gorebyss, it's because they function equivalently as SmashPassers. I've been using the combination of Huntail and Gorebyss for quite some time, and I've never found Gorebyss's larger Special Attack stat useful. Huntai is outclassed by Gorebyss in a Shell Smash sweeping set, but that's not the focus of this set. The focus of this set is simply to Baton Pass a Shell Smash, and Huntail neither outclasses, or is outclassed in that aspect. Additionally, this set is meant to work well in conjunction with Gorebyss, to ensure that you are always able to pass a boost.
 
As an aside, since Huntail doesn't actually have an OU analysis at the moment, if you want to include this set then you'll have to write everything else as well - Overview, Checks+Counters, OO, and the like. Oh and change the title to "Huntail (OU Analysis)".
 
Do i need to include my overview in my skeleton, or do I wait until this set hopefully gets approved, and then I add my overview and all that other stuff?
 
There isn't currently an OU analysis for Huntail, so you need all aspects of an analysis - i.e. the overview, other options, checks and counters, etc.

gdi AG -.-
 
You could mention that Huntail deals with Tyranitar and Blissey a little better than Gorebyss, which could be important if your recipients are Psychic- or Ghost-types or special attackers in general.
 
Okay, just did the calcs, and Huntail needs quite a lot of prior damage to OHKO defensive Tyranitar and 2HKO Blissey at +2, it may not actually be worth the mention since Waterfall has weak-ass BP and Huntail isn't using Atk EVs.
 
Hey Sir.

Just rename the thread title to: Huntail (OU Analysis) [QC 0/3], since (Overview) is pretty misleading. Besides that, I'm afraid you've got some things wrong here. A good example of an OU analysis in QC is the Jynx thread currently in progress, so make your thread look like that and you're set (the Overview's in the wrong place).

I've been testing it out last night, so I'll talk it over with the others when I get a hold of them.
 
Eh, good enough. I won't bother you about it anymore.

That aside, I would mention that Huntail's role is obviously SmashPassing, which has competition with Gorebyss and Smeargle. Like you said, Huntail is neither outclassed nor anymore dominant at this role than Gorebyss since they do the same thing, so emphasize that. Huntail's main draw over Smeargle is that it's much more bulkier, so it's easier to survive things (multiple times if needed) and be less dependent on things like Focus Sash. I would also emphasize Huntail's effectiveness alongside Gorebyss and the reasons why in AC (I had some fun and success using Two Smashers + Two recipients - If one chain is unsuccessful, then the other can finish the job).
 
I agree with everything AccidentalGreed had to tell you on the post above. Those changes would help explain Huntail's niche in OU. Okay, here are some more technical changes I propose:

Overview
-pretty good typing
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  • Water-typing is a solid defensive typing
Additional Comments
- Ice Fang can be used over Substitute to hit Pokemon like Dragonite and Celebi
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  • Despite the negative nature, Ice Beam actually does more damage overall than Ice Fang, so it's worth a mention alongside Ice Fang.
- Leftovers is an option to increase Huntail's longevity, but passing stat drops to your teammate is pretty bad
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  • I would remove the mention of Leftovers, since Whiter Herb is pretty much a staple on Huntail / Gorebyss as Smash Passers
Teammates and Counter
-status inducers like Jirachi can prevent Huntail from passing a Shell Smash by using Body Slam or Thunder Wave
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  • Since status conditions are not passed down to the recipient, I wouldn't say that they prevent Huntail much (other than Sleep-inducing moves). Jirachi and paralysis is a bad example, because Jirachi can't kill Huntail (without TBolt / Thunder), while Huntail can move second to Baton Pass boosts to the recipient safely. I would re-phrase this as "status conditions can cripple the recipient without Lum Berry"
-Celebi, Rotom-W, and anything with a a super-effective STAB move can take down Huntail
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  • I will move this to Checks and Counters section, which you currently do not have :o
Other Options
  • Mention its ability to go Mixed, thanks to its decent SpA stat and high-powered special moves, namely Hydro Pump and Ice Beam.
  • Double-Edge - provides great neutral coverage with STAB Water, although Jellicent, Ferrothorn, and Empoleon resist it.
  • Confuse Ray may be useful to bypass Phazers, such as Skarmory, Shuffler Dragonite, and Bulky Gyarados. Hidden Power [Electric] can be used to cripple Skarmory and Bulky Gyarados.
Checks and Counters
  • Definitely mention phazers here, particularly Skarmory. Bulky Gyarados, Perish Song Politoed / Celebi, Shuffler Dragonite, Roar Vaporeon, and Clear Smog Gastrodon are all such examples.
  • Quagsire could receive a special mention for ignoring Smash boosts
  • Faster TrickScarfers, particularly Rotom-W and Latios can render it useless
 
Implemented everything AG and Pocket said. I don't know what you guys think about me adding the Mixed Smash Pass sweeper set. I tested it today and it was better than expected(was only 1 hour of testing though). Ready for checks and approvals and rejects and whatever
 
Sir, you totally skipped the "Checks and Counters" section that comes at the very end of every analyses. There's a "Teammates and Counters" section for every set, but there is a "Checks and Counters" section that lists the overall counters to Huntail. The former Teammates section has a larger emphasis on Teammates rather than Counters (counters are only mentioned to explain why the suggested teammates are good). Descriptions solely on what counters Huntail should be dropped down to "Checks and Counters." Refer to my previous post.

Check BTzz's Jynx's OU Analysishttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3461056 for reference. Note that he merged Additional Comments and Teammates and Counters together.

You also did not mention Huntail's ability to go mixed in OO, thanks to Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Again, refer to previous post. It doesn't deserve its own set, because I don't find it working out too impressively.

In OO, Hidden Power Electric is worth a mention to wear down phazers such as Bulky Gyarados and Skarmory.
 
Combined AC and TC. Added Checks and Counters. Talked about a mix set in OO. Added the Hp Elec thing. I think im done
 
-Better than Smeargle since it doesn't have to rely on Focus Sash, and Huntail is bulky.
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Don't say "Better," since Smeargle has its own advantage in much higher Speed and Spore - they are simply different.

Additional Comments
-Celebi, Rotom-W, and anything with a a super-effective STAB move can take down Huntail
-status inducers can cripple the recipient without a Lum Berry
-Phasers like Skarmory and Bulky Gyarados ruin this set
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  • Mention recipients that can deal with Celebi / Rotom-W, such as Hydreigon. This way, you're tying a connection between Huntail's counters with its potential teammates.
  • Sorry, remove the mention of status inducers and Bulky Gyarados, since Substitute blocks status and Dragon Tail. My mistake
  • Mention how Espeon is not only useful for Dual Screens, but to bounce back Phazing moves

Checks and Counters
-status inducers can cripple the recipient without a Lum Berry
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Specify, "status inducers not weak to Waterfall and that can break Huntail's Substitute bolstered by Screens can cripple the recipient without Lum Berry. It is important to give examples of such Pokemon in this section. Pokemon like bulky Rotom-W, Celebi, Tangrowth, and Breloom comes to mind with their SE STAB moves and status moves like Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Sleep Powder, and Spore.

-Anything with a super-effective STAB move can take out Huntail. Some examples are Celebi, Jolteon and Rotom-W
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Note that Huntail can survive such hits with the help of Dual Screens.

-Fast Trickers like Latios ruin this set
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Note that such Trick Scarfers must Trick before Huntail Shell Smashes. Otherwise, Huntail can Baton Pass on the turn Latios Trick his Scarf.

-Powerful attacks in general will take down Huntail
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Again note that Dual Screen would make this harder to achieve this. I would also be more detailed here. If you don't have bulky phazers or Taunt to void Huntail's Smash Pass, the next best alternative is to hit Huntail with a hard-hitter that can not only survive Huntail's +2 Waterfall, but that can hit both Huntail and its probable recipient hard. Crippling Huntail may be difficult, thanks to its HP investment, but the offensive sweepers would be heavily damaged, even through screens, with the right move. Such offensive mons include Dragonite, Latios, Haxorus (watch out for Ice Beam), Starmie, Gyarados, Cloyster, and Toxicroak.

-Quagsire ruins this set, and the receiver of the Shell Smash because it can ignore the boosts
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I would not say that Quagsire necessarily "ruins" this set, since the opponent is fine if it has a recipient that can deal with Quagsire, which exists plentifully. Say that Quagsire may help in walling certain Shell Smash recipients thanks to its Unaware ability.

You also forgot to mention the biggest counters to this Huntail's strategy - bulky Phazers:
Definitely mention phazers here, particularly Skarmory. Bulky Gyarados, Perish Song Politoed / Celebi, Shuffler Dragonite, Roar Vaporeon, and Clear Smog Gastrodon are all such examples.
Click to expand...
Actually remove the mention of Shuffler Dragonite, and note that Gyarados with Dragon Tail and Gastrodon with Clear Smog can only phaze out Huntail with Ice Beam > Sub.
 
Huntail is uglier than Gorebyss but other than that, this is a good set. Nitpicks:

  • Remove Ice Beam's mention from AC, Gorebyss outclasses Huntail with special attacks.
  • Mention Nidoking as a receiver.

PM me after you implement this and Pocket's suggestions and I'll approve.
 
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