• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Ice, Ice, Baby - Hail Discussion

Update; I've added Gothiruselle, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, and Dasutodasu to the front post.

There can't honestly be nothing to discuss. Well, I have been thinking about some things I'd like some opinions on.

For starters, do you guys believe that Clefable is a viable option at this point in time? It seems as though Rankurusu has usurped Clefable's place on Hail teams thanks to its much better typing and better offensive movepool, as well as the stats to do something (more) with it. Although, Rankurusu does lack several of the support options Clefable has (Encore~), but is it enough to make Clefable worthwhile?

Also, something extremely interesting:
http://91.121.73.228/Dream World/593.html

Burungeru @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
Calm Nature
48 Hp/ 208 Def/ 252 SDef
- Toxic
- Recover
- Hail
- Boil Over

It seems this set is rather popular, being the second most used set on Burungeru at this point in time. Hail itself has been looking for a back up Hail user, and Burungeru is sturdy and carries with it good defensive synergy with most members on a Hail team. Whaddya think?
 
Seth Vilo said:
This has been mentioned before, but I love to have a random Hail user on my team. I got incredibly angry at running into one DrizzleToad team after another, as well as sandstorm+Doryuuzu. On a random whim, I threw Kyurem onto my team with LO, 3 offensive moves, and Hail. All of a sudden, weather teams were failing. I found that if my opponent sees that I don't have an auto-weather inducer, they're a LOT less careful with their Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Politoed, or Ninetales. Once the inducer is gone, in comes Kyurem to use Hail and completely mess up their strategy; no longer is Kingdra that threatening with Super-STAB Hydro Pump and Swift Swim, or is Doryuuzu as fast a a bullet. I'm sure there are far more efficient Pokemon to randomly run Hail on, since Kyurem is weak to common Rock moves, and neutral to Fire from Sunny Day teams. I thought of doing Sunny Day on Erufuun just to make sure it happens, but that's a waste of Erufuun's precious moveslots most of the time, and I'm left helpless against Ninetales abusers. Hail is slim as ever, so it's most effective as anti-weather. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents, since this seemed like the appropriate thread.
Click to expand...

I like Kyurem, he is very bulky as well as a scary attacker and an insane lure (because pretty much nothing can safely switch in but a steel and even certain steels are 2 hit koed by Blizzard named Scizor although I wouldn't do that unless Hail was already up and behind a Reflect or something). Kyurem also can do a weird bulky set (Hail, Reflect, Light Screen, Blizzard or something) if that tickles your fancy or you could do the offensive of course. But let me just say Kyurem is a very, very good underrated poke. And Stealth Rock is only a minor hindrance to Kyurem and with bulk and Screen/Wish Support, he will pretty much never die.

Just to note that with 417 hp/256 Def bulky Kyurem behind Reflect takes 32.13-37.89% from Roopushin non Guts Drain Punches, Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch does 36.45-43.17% (only a very small chance of 2 hit ko WITH Stealth Rock!!!), unless it's a critical hit Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge does 60.91-72.42% (not a ohko!), etc. Behind Light Screen it survives Modest Specs Latios Draco Meteor, Kingdra's Specs Meteor even with Stealth Rock, utterly and completely laughs at Hydro Pumps (and pp stalls it out because of Pressure which would finally do something useful for Kyurem), only has a small chance of being 2 hit koed by Modest Specs Heatran Fireblast even after Stealth Rock....

Whoever says Kyurem is utter garbage is WRONG. With investment it survives insane things, supports the team, acts as a lure, hits HARD (have fun eating stabbed Draco Meteors/Blizzards that are stronger than Latios), is not completely walled by steels (yes, Focus Blast accuracy sucks but if it hits, it hits hard and many common steels are actually neutral to Ice like that Nattorei who is insanely common and everywhere and Skarmory), counters can't switch in worth a darn for the most part (unless you're steel or revenge killing, but if it is defensively oriented and/or behind Screens, it is likely to be causing some trouble in the near future), stab Ice and Dragon moves that hit nearly everything...the pokemon people weren't insane when they made it legendary (although clearly they meant it to be Uber with onlky 10-20 base stat points less than things like Dialga, Zekrom, Kyogre, etc).

And in Hail, RUN Kyurem. Specs Blizzards 1-2 hit ko everything short of Jirachi, really special defensive Metagross, and Heatran (who gets murdered by Focus Blast). Well, I guess Chansey/Blissey as well although Chansey loses a lot without Leftovers and Hail hitting repeatedly.
 
I don't quite understand the tangent you set yourself out on since I've never heard anyone describe Kyurem as "utter garbage", but rather simply "a little underwhelming"
 
Actually I have (hence why it's been linked in the first post~), but the only opinion's that really matter to me are those who've actually used Kyurem, which probably isn't even half of that thread. Probably should have said "never heard anyone who's used Kyurem say blahblahblah", my bad.

Do you have any evidence to that last claim? Not that I don't believe you, but damage calculations are always nice~
 
Cshadow said:
Actually I have (hence why it's been linked in the first post~), but the only opinion's that really matter to me are those who've actually used Kyurem, which probably isn't even half of that thread. Probably should have said "never heard anyone who's used Kyurem say blahblahblah", my bad.

Do you have any evidence to that last claim? Not that I don't believe you, but damage calculations are always nice~
Click to expand...

It can but Hail could kind of wreck Quagsire and it depends on Quagsire's spread and it can't switch in on Earthquake since depending on spread and move choice of Doryuzu, it would be 2 hit koed BECAUSE of Hail.

Jolly Balloon Earthquake vrs. Max/Max Quagsire: 34.26-40.61%
Jolly Life Orb Earthquake vrs. Max/Max Quagsire: 44.92-52.79% (can't switch in on Earthquake and can potentially live Quagsires to ko before dying to Life Orb+Hail and Earthquake 2 hit koes because of Hail)

Quagsire absolutely can not switch in on Earthquake, only Swords Dance and the Stockpiler is 2 hit koed by Life Orb Earthquake if Quagsire invests more into Special defense to allow defenses on both sides. Hail does not help Quagsire at all because Hail negates Leftovers.

Kyurem is a sweet pokemon. He is one of my favorites.
 
Great guide. ^^ Hail Teams are so boss, too bad we don't get any shiny upgrades. (Mamoswine will still rip through teams though ;D)

Just wanted to say Good Job! :D
 
Thanks~

@Fluffy Otters: Those actually look nice. If you consider that Quagsire can more than likely kill Doryuuzu while the Sandstorm is going, we can say for certain that while holding Leftovers that Jolly Life Orb Dory will never be capable of 2HKO'ing Quagsire. It will be completely up to the player to determine if it would be smarter to completely restart the Hail Storm and then simply revenge kill Doryuuzu with whomever you have to fill that role or if he would rather kill off Dory with Quagsire and then switch in Abomasnow later. Obviously if he's switched Quagsire into Dory he's more than likely going to /have/ to use Hail because otherwise you've just wasted a Pokemon.

I think Quagsire would actually work nice in Hail.
 
I think Hail has potential, that's for sure. I used a Hail team in Generation IV and it was actually much different from what you may expect. If I recall correctly, I used

Abomasnow
Mamoswine
Vaporeon/ Latias
Gliscor
Magnezone
Kingdra

It was definitely more offensive and very different from your average "hail-stall". Vaporeon/Latias were my primary fire-absorbers that could Wish but Kingdra got a spot due to it's ability to take fire moves like a champ then Dragon Dance or Substitute (I ran Liechi berry) and sweep with Waterfall/Outrage. Magnezone was there to clear Steels for my powerful Dragon/Ice moves. Mamoswine was definitely my favorite Ice Pokemon to put on the team simply because it's a Dragon-Killer with Ice Shard and it threatened Steels with Superpower/Earthquake. Gliscor was my primary fighting-resistor and it did a great job at setting up Stealth Rock.

I feel that people should sway away from Ice types (simply because it's too hard to cover all the weaknesses to make a good team) and simply use Abomasnow for what it is: an anti-weather. I would probably use Hariyama for its ability to beat Ninetails and Tyranitar and a valuable Rock Resist.

It may be personal preference but I really like Dragons on Hail teams simply because they're that powerful.

I'd probably go with something like:

Abomasnow
Garchomp
Latios/Latias
Hariyama
Magnezone (non Scarf? )
Mamoswine
 
This might be a crazy idea, but for a server not trying to be a compleate simulator it could try and give ice types a defence boost in Hail, it still wont be as good with out a Swift swim like thing ect but it will still help (specialy stall).
 
It's better not to discuss what Hail could have gotten or what Hail should have gotten, but rather what Hail can do. And, at the moment, it's the best anti-weather team you could possibly hope to have.
 
I've started to run a Hail team, and, while [Somewhat surprisingly] I haven't run into either Rain or Sand yet, I have ran into several types of teams.

I managed to beat balance teams, but ended up losing to a Sun team [Due to a crit] and stall team which used WishBliss and WishJirachi, spamming Toxic whenever they could.

And my Forry has a dreadful habit of getting shut down by a random attack [That Jirachi had Fire Punch, stupid Nattorei] and crits...

Also, can anyone else wait for Ice Body Regice? It's a bulkier Stallrein, that can actually attack in retaliation. Base 200 Sp.Def and Base 100 Def says hi. Just think, Hail can basically run two Stallreins...
 
Like someone else has mentioned I've found the move Hail is a lot more useful than Hail based teams. A one turn move that sets up non permanent Hail is beyond useful agaisnt opposing weather teams. Pokemon with Water Absorb (Vaporeon, Burungeru, Suicune) especially can come in Kingdra Hydro Pumps and use Hail on the switch which completely screws with their team as they have to send Politoed back out, which Water Absorb pokemon have a big advantage over. Tentacruel is also a great Hail user
 
How could you forget Glaceon! Now with Ice Body, it can do the Hail Stall just like Walrein. She's bulky enough to survive weak attacks with 25% left, and if the stall engine starts, her less than spectacular bulk no longer matters.

Over Walrein and Regice, she's got a BOMB of a Blizzard, which is much useful considering addition of MH.
 
Glaceon is terrible and outclassed by any other Pokemon you could possibly want on a hail team. Want to abuse a 130 base special attack STAB Blizzard? Use Kyurem. Want to use a Pokemon with decent defenses to stall with Ice Body? Use Walrien/Regice. There really isn't any reason to use Glaceon over any of the other plethora of Ice Pokemon : X
 
Cshadow said:
Glaceon is terrible and outclassed by any other Pokemon you could possibly want on a hail team. Want to abuse a 130 base special attack STAB Blizzard? Use Kyurem. Want to use a Pokemon with decent defenses to stall with Ice Body? Use Walrien/Regice. There really isn't any reason to use Glaceon over any of the other plethora of Ice Pokemon : X
Click to expand...

Glaceon is decent due to having simultaneous godly attack and Ice Body.

Plus it can be used in a "double dragon"-esque situation with Kyurem.

Anyway I've found Hail to be most useful with Abomasnow as its only abuser. Hail is very anti-meta and also causes slight damage each turn unlike sun; the ice types only add more SR weaknesses IMO.

Oddly, despite its piss-poor SpA, my Scarf Abomasnow was a surprisingly potent attacker. Blizzard+Focus Blast+HP Fire+Grass Knot gets surprisingly decent coverage. TBH I dunno why you're running Shed Shell instead of Scarf since it's useless outside of DW.

In DW, could I suggest Dustproof Shed Shell Forretress and Anxiety Bandtar?

The former is a great lead (has RS, sets up T-spikes) and a Shanderaa lure (why it is better than tentacruel) while the latter is able to OHKO Shanderaa with Pursuit regardless of whether or not it switches. As a plus it gets rid of Politoed too.


Finally I'd like to note that dedicated hail teams are a poor idea. The best effect of hail is getting rid of SS and Rain.
 
Breludicolo said:
Glaceon is decent due to having simultaneous godly attack and Ice Body.

Plus it can be used in a "double dragon"-esque situation with Kyurem.

Anyway I've found Hail to be most useful with Abomasnow as its only abuser. Hail is very anti-meta and also causes slight damage each turn unlike sun; the ice types only add more SR weaknesses IMO.

Oddly, despite its piss-poor SpA, my Scarf Abomasnow was a surprisingly potent attacker. Blizzard+Focus Blast+HP Fire+Grass Knot gets surprisingly decent coverage. TBH I dunno why you're running Shed Shell instead of Scarf since it's useless outside of DW.

In DW, could I suggest Dustproof Shed Shell Forretress and Anxiety Bandtar?

The former is a great lead (has RS, sets up T-spikes) and a Shanderaa lure (why it is better than tentacruel) while the latter is able to OHKO Shanderaa with Pursuit regardless of whether or not it switches. As a plus it gets rid of Politoed too.


Finally I'd like to note that dedicated hail teams are a poor idea. The best effect of hail is getting rid of SS and Rain.
Click to expand...


I'll add Glaceon to the front post (eventually), she just seems so underwhelming compared to other Pokemon, and pure-Ice typing never helps.

I really only play Dream World so I'll add a Choice Scarf set as an alternative? It's extremely useful in Dream World because he gets to make an immediate switch to Heatran - which is pretty great.

Forretress was actually one of the Pokemon I really want to add to the first post. Rapid Spin and your choice of entry hazard(s) (including Stealth Rock - which he gets by breeding) is pretty awesome, but he also got Volt Change this generation. Volt Change is a special U-Turn and can be very useful as a (slow) pivot to ensure that Pokemon come in unharmed.

Anxiety Tyranitar sounds interesting, I'll add him to the fist post as soon as I can~

I also agree with the last part, Hail is anti-meta, and the best way to run it is like that (imo), but Hail still has a lot of other options in Blizzard spamming and Stall that can still be very effective.

EDIT: 92 Special Attack is not "piss-poor"
 
CShadow do you have a good hail team working? This is a very detailed post, and it looks you have experience in hail.

Try throwing a Scarfset? Blizzard 2KOs Kingdra, Wood hammer almost KOs Politoed, not sure what EQ does on ninetales.

If you really want to make it anti-weather a scarf set could work
 
ChaosNebula said:
CShadow do you have a good hail team working? This is a very detailed post, and it looks you have experience in hail.

Try throwing a Scarfset? Blizzard 2KOs Kingdra, Wood hammer almost KOs Politoed, not sure what EQ does on ninetales.

If you really want to make it anti-weather a scarf set could work
Click to expand...

I (had) a decent team going (got above 100 a few times on the ladder with it iirc) that consisted of Abomasnow/Heatran/Hitmontop/Shinbora/Latias/Ditto (I literally couldn't think of anyone else to add, and he helped patch up some weaknesses), but I didn't stick with it for very long - I still had problems with obvious threats. I'm trying out a few new things at the moment, like Unaware Quagsire, and I hope to try out Forretress, Genosect and Gliscor.

I used to have calculations for a Scarf set in the first post - I'll be sure to put those back up tomorrow or something.

@NatGeo: I'll fix that~
 
Quagsire is funny to use. That little smirk on his face, is priceless.

He can be your answer to the godlike Doryuuzu, and basically anyone who sets up in your face.
 
Abomasnow is fantastic in this metagame. He takes on rain with ease, thanks to solid defensive stats, Snow Warning, and a Water resistance. Leech Seed + Hail damage means you're racking up a LOT of residual damage. Add entry hazards to the mix and it's really formidable. It takes on Sand fairly well, too. It can come in on Earthquakes pretty easily, but you need to be a lot more careful because a well-timed Rock Slide / Stone Edge could put an end to it.

Abomasnow is really anti-metagame, I think people should use it more!
 
In my opinion Choice Scarf Abomasnow is the best set right now since it outspeeds every weather abuser and rapes them with its STAB moves
 
not really; Scarf Abomasnow has a lot of trouble taking hits with its nasty Stealth Rock weakness and no Leech Seed or Leftovers. You switch into Specs Kingdra Surf twice and you're gone. It's too frail.
 
HART4FLOON said:
In my opinion Choice Scarf Abomasnow is the best set right now since it outspeeds every weather abuser and rapes them with its STAB moves
Click to expand...
*ahem* Droughtales would like to object, resisting Ice/Grass STAB.
But I have to agree, Abomasnow is very helpful against a lot of weather starters. I run my own CSBoma, and it does what it needs to. It is also very useful even if the opponent does not use a weather team.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top