I agree with the previous post on all its points. Also to add, Otamaru and Yooteri seem way too high, put them in Upper Mid.
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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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I agree with the previous post on all its points. Also to add, Otamaru and Yooteri seem way too high, put them in Upper Mid.
So, I evolved my alien into Oobemu, and I have a few things to say. First off, it's very, very slow. However, it's low Speed is made up with great Sp. Atk and decent Sp. Def. He learns Psychic, but you need TMs to complete his moveset. I used Charge Beam to get passed the Flying Gym (unaware that his HP is Electric, but whatever) and it worked pretty well (he gets T-Bolt as well, but I don't have the TM yet). Shadow Ball and Energy Ball also add up for coverage.
At lv. 50, he learns Recover, but his Speed doesn't really let him abuse it.
Upper Mid tier for him.
EDIT: I think Komatana should be a bit higher on the list. His ability, Competitive Spirit, is great in-game. Opponents love lowering Def. and Spe., so getting a +2 ATK boost for free helps a lot, and makes up for his bad movepool and average Speed (opponent outspeeds you, lowers your stats, ATK gets boosted, you OHKO what was going to be a 2HKO). Plus, you can give him Aerial Ace for pesky Fighting types.
Also, somebody said you could only get Kojondo at Victory Road: actually, you can get his pre-evolution at the tower north of the 7th Gym town.
At lv. 50, he learns Recover, but his Speed doesn't really let him abuse it.
Upper Mid tier for him.
EDIT: I think Komatana should be a bit higher on the list. His ability, Competitive Spirit, is great in-game. Opponents love lowering Def. and Spe., so getting a +2 ATK boost for free helps a lot, and makes up for his bad movepool and average Speed (opponent outspeeds you, lowers your stats, ATK gets boosted, you OHKO what was going to be a 2HKO). Plus, you can give him Aerial Ace for pesky Fighting types.
Also, somebody said you could only get Kojondo at Victory Road: actually, you can get his pre-evolution at the tower north of the 7th Gym town.
where do you get a shinpora? nevermind i found one in the desert.
I'm in the electric cave right now, and I have 4 pokes(too lazy to train more than 4 lol) at level 31~
Futachimaru: So far it has been impressive. I've been having a lot of success with this. Although I pretty much run mono water attacks on this, Water has few resists anyway so generally I have little trouble. Lvl 17 Shell Blade was a godsend.(WHAT I WANT MOST THOUGH IS TO EVOLVE THIS THING AND GET MEGAHORN)
Dokkora Evo(forgot name): The main problem I have with this guy is its speed. Pretty much everything I've met so far has outsped this guy, although thankfully he's got decent bulk and generally doesn't take too much from most attacks. Does hit like a truck with Wake Up Slap though.
Shimama Evo(again forgot name): Yeah I see that a lot of people are bashing this thing. I actually think it's not that bad. Sure it dies to a light poke, but it hits fairly hard with a Spark, and I love T-wave support, especially for my fighter. Nitro Charge is weak, but it actually did alright, since I gave it a boost with a Charcoal, and the speed boost saved my ass a fair few times. Shimama also comes fairly early in the game, and gets a decent move in Shock Wave at Lvl 11. Should be Mid IMO.
Shinpora: Do I even have to keep giving this thing praise? ITS. AMAZING. Psybeam and Air Cutter casualties are piling up like mad, with no sign of stopping. Good speed, good SpAtk, good level up moves, I really can't ask for more other than maybe getting it a bit earlier =P.
Fire Monkey: This was part of my pre-planned in game team, but I gave up at lvl 16. Way too weak, and was leveling up wayy too slow. Should be Mid IMO. I even gave it a Charcoal(the one on my Shimama Evo) to try to boost it's power and it still didn't do anything.
Just my opinion on what I've tried so far.
Futachimaru: So far it has been impressive. I've been having a lot of success with this. Although I pretty much run mono water attacks on this, Water has few resists anyway so generally I have little trouble. Lvl 17 Shell Blade was a godsend.(WHAT I WANT MOST THOUGH IS TO EVOLVE THIS THING AND GET MEGAHORN)
Dokkora Evo(forgot name): The main problem I have with this guy is its speed. Pretty much everything I've met so far has outsped this guy, although thankfully he's got decent bulk and generally doesn't take too much from most attacks. Does hit like a truck with Wake Up Slap though.
Shimama Evo(again forgot name): Yeah I see that a lot of people are bashing this thing. I actually think it's not that bad. Sure it dies to a light poke, but it hits fairly hard with a Spark, and I love T-wave support, especially for my fighter. Nitro Charge is weak, but it actually did alright, since I gave it a boost with a Charcoal, and the speed boost saved my ass a fair few times. Shimama also comes fairly early in the game, and gets a decent move in Shock Wave at Lvl 11. Should be Mid IMO.
Shinpora: Do I even have to keep giving this thing praise? ITS. AMAZING. Psybeam and Air Cutter casualties are piling up like mad, with no sign of stopping. Good speed, good SpAtk, good level up moves, I really can't ask for more other than maybe getting it a bit earlier =P.
Fire Monkey: This was part of my pre-planned in game team, but I gave up at lvl 16. Way too weak, and was leveling up wayy too slow. Should be Mid IMO. I even gave it a Charcoal(the one on my Shimama Evo) to try to boost it's power and it still didn't do anything.
Just my opinion on what I've tried so far.
IMO, only Hiyappu should be High Tier, since it gets Surf. All of the monkeys, however, are hard to train. I evolved my Hiyappu at lv. 22 (right after it got Boiling Water) because, I couldn't stand it.
It is by far the strongest member of my team, tied with Emboar. It's Surf is useful against so many Pokemon in game, and it hits hard neutral anyway. Against the E4 Ghost trainer, it defeated 3 of her Pokemon with Surf/Grass Knot and beat half of N's team as well.
As for Komatana, he's very hard to train (considering Fighting moves are very common), but after I evolved him, he became a beast. Solo'd the Psychic E4 and was useful against the Ghost (although overshadowed by Hiyakki) and Dark E4's too. Obviously, I didn't use him against the Fighting one.
It is by far the strongest member of my team, tied with Emboar. It's Surf is useful against so many Pokemon in game, and it hits hard neutral anyway. Against the E4 Ghost trainer, it defeated 3 of her Pokemon with Surf/Grass Knot and beat half of N's team as well.
As for Komatana, he's very hard to train (considering Fighting moves are very common), but after I evolved him, he became a beast. Solo'd the Psychic E4 and was useful against the Ghost (although overshadowed by Hiyakki) and Dark E4's too. Obviously, I didn't use him against the Fighting one.
"Hard to train" is the number one factor in many things' tiering; you're underestimating the importance of that statement.
Let's compare Monozu and Shinpora, shall we?
Monozu is faster, stronger, and bulkier- after 20 levels of nigh-worthlessness.
By contrast, Shinpora wouldn't be worth bothering with if it had to evolve; its power, speed, and bulk are all good, but not fantastic. However, Shinpora can pull its own weight as soon as you get it.
This is for an efficient run; if you have to grind to make something usable, it's bad.
I get your point. I'm just saying that Komatana has its usefulness after you get over the hump.
Purotooga (sea turtle fossil) should definitely be in the high tier...maybe even top:
- access to pretty early on (after the 3rd gym) and at a high level (25, which should be on par with most of your other Pokemon)
- considering you revive it at the museum, I'm sure everyone can afford to spend a few minutes to ensure a +Atk natured one
- immediate access to Aqua Jet remedies his low Speed. In my experience he is 2HKOing at least 85% of what you run into early on
- Shell Break at level 38. This is a fantastic move, and Purotooga's low speed means you can usually take a hit before using shell break (meaning you aren't taking a hit at -1 Def/SpDef). After a shell break there is very little you can't OHKO, and you outspeed pretty much everything that you'll run into in-game, effectively eliminating his low speed issue.
- awesome coverage between STAB rock and water (and ground as well if you're into that)
- can run both waterfall and surf effectively on the same set (to function as a mixed sweeper, in addition to shell break and a rock move). So this eliminates your hm slave needs by quite a bit.
- access to pretty early on (after the 3rd gym) and at a high level (25, which should be on par with most of your other Pokemon)
- considering you revive it at the museum, I'm sure everyone can afford to spend a few minutes to ensure a +Atk natured one
- immediate access to Aqua Jet remedies his low Speed. In my experience he is 2HKOing at least 85% of what you run into early on
- Shell Break at level 38. This is a fantastic move, and Purotooga's low speed means you can usually take a hit before using shell break (meaning you aren't taking a hit at -1 Def/SpDef). After a shell break there is very little you can't OHKO, and you outspeed pretty much everything that you'll run into in-game, effectively eliminating his low speed issue.
- awesome coverage between STAB rock and water (and ground as well if you're into that)
- can run both waterfall and surf effectively on the same set (to function as a mixed sweeper, in addition to shell break and a rock move). So this eliminates your hm slave needs by quite a bit.
In my experience you don't really need HM's that much in B/W. I don't think there's been a single situation where you've NEEDED any HM to advance in the game except for cut at the very beginning. Every other situation HM moves only serve the purpose of finding items or taking shortcuts. They're nice to have, but I don't think a pokemon's HM use should really be much of a factor in determining in-game tiers.
I'm pretty satisfied with the list at this point. My only recommendations would be to move up Churine, move down Yurian (Slow + Fragile x Long period of mediocrity = meh) and give Yabakuron its own Garbage tier in between low and bottom.
As far as post elite four Pokemon go, I'd go ahead and vouch that Kryugen should be in mid. Sure, there's nothing really left to do in the post game beyond find the stages, but Kryugen is a huge help in doing so at Level 75 upon capture. I want to place Urugamosu in a similar category, but it's available after finding probably the hardest sage. I'd say he's better off in Mid/Low or Low tier.
The version exclusive genies are Low or Bottom for sure. There typing is interesting, but they come at level 40, at least 10 levels below your championship team. They're also roaming pokemon, so you'll either need to use your Master Ball or spend an hour or more searching for it and praying you catch it.
As far as post elite four Pokemon go, I'd go ahead and vouch that Kryugen should be in mid. Sure, there's nothing really left to do in the post game beyond find the stages, but Kryugen is a huge help in doing so at Level 75 upon capture. I want to place Urugamosu in a similar category, but it's available after finding probably the hardest sage. I'd say he's better off in Mid/Low or Low tier.
The version exclusive genies are Low or Bottom for sure. There typing is interesting, but they come at level 40, at least 10 levels below your championship team. They're also roaming pokemon, so you'll either need to use your Master Ball or spend an hour or more searching for it and praying you catch it.
I would like to push for Kurimugan to move up to Mid tier from Low. I used it in my very first play through of Black and it was good. You obtain it at a solid level 33 or so when the rest of your party should be about level 40 which isn't a huge gap. The level gap becomes even more insignificant when you realize that you can easily train it in the same place that you capture it. Kurimugan can train against other Kurimugan with Dragon Claw and can rip through the Gobitto littering the second floor of Dragon Spiral Tower with Crunch. Rough Skin and Encourage are also both amazing abilities in-game, especially if you equip Kurimugan with Rugged Helmet which you should have access to by the point you capture Kurimugan. You get Revenge at level 35 which gives you complete coverage when paired with Dragon Claw and Crunch. You can even Fly back to Fuyikose City after capturing Kurimugan and Heart Scale Claw Sharpen back onto it. It also can serve as your "HM Slave" for a combination of Surf, Cut, and Strength. While its low Speed may seem off-putting, it is generally faster than most of the Pokémon you will encounter in-game and its good defenses allow it to survive hits from Pokémon that out-speed it. It can also help with many of the trainers in the 8th Gym (which is filled with other Kurimgan and Onondo, which you should be able to out-speed). The only issue you should have in that entire gym is against Iris / Shaga's Ononokusu. Even that isn't an insurmountable obstacle because from my experience it tends to use Dragon Dance + Dragon Rage. Kurimugan also helps against the Ghost and Dark Elite 4 members with Crunch and Revenge respectively.
Hiyappu/Hiyakkii should be higher tier, with a combination of
Surf
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Boiling Water
it has amazing coverage and can stall out physical powerhouses that it can't OHKO with boiling water. Definitely made my walkthrough incredibly easy
Surf
Ice Beam
Grass Knot
Boiling Water
it has amazing coverage and can stall out physical powerhouses that it can't OHKO with boiling water. Definitely made my walkthrough incredibly easy
To me, it sounds like Hiyappu/Hiyakki should go up a tier, since it's an offensive water, which is much more rare as opposed to the other two monkeys.
Posting just to agree with Hitomushi's (Fire/Ghost) tiering for now. It's cute, its final evo is a beast, etc etc, but training it to lv41 is quite a feat. From lv26-28 to lv35-36 it's kinda easy, as you just need to Imprison-Evil Eye wild Hitomushi in that tower, but after that you really need to Exp. Share it, or use a couple Rare Candies. Is it worth the effort? Maybe, I just evolved it, so I can't say. But if it's as good as its pre-evo, then Mid-Low tier is fitting to it.
Zuruggu should be moved up to Upper Mid, you get him early(3rd gym) and he immediatly can make an impact on your team. I believe he comes with Faint Attack and Headbutt as soon as you get him, then acquires Brick Break(?) a few levels later. That is great coverage off of a solid attack stat. He evolves a little late(Level 39 I think)but since I caught him he's been my team MVP.
I'd also like to petition Choroneko's movement to lower mid. She's a pain to train for the first few levels but pursuit hits pretty hard off of her attack stat. I don't feel as strongly on this as I do about Zuruggu, but Choroneko is definitely an asset because she can be obtained so early
I'd also like to petition Choroneko's movement to lower mid. She's a pain to train for the first few levels but pursuit hits pretty hard off of her attack stat. I don't feel as strongly on this as I do about Zuruggu, but Choroneko is definitely an asset because she can be obtained so early
Why Kurumiru is low-mid, only god knows... the thing is really, really good. It learns 3 crit moves by level, has high attack, learns shadow claw by tm, the scope lens is found naturally, learns protect and swords dance... it's really quite cool and deserves a high spot IMO. Never did I feel that it was underpowered, except maybe one level before learning Leaf Blade.
I will admit that it is expensive though; you have to buy over 9000 potions to increase its happiness quickly (each potion increases happiness by one.. give it a soothe bell and that's +2; even 1 HP's worth of damage can let a potion be used on it, so getting to that value's not too hard)
Munna does not deserve upper mid... it's really, really, really annoying to train; it gets CM and Psychic soooo late that I had to overlevel it like crazy so I could evolve with all of its good moves. It's admittedly pretty good after that, though, and is a prime candidate for rugged helmet
I will admit that it is expensive though; you have to buy over 9000 potions to increase its happiness quickly (each potion increases happiness by one.. give it a soothe bell and that's +2; even 1 HP's worth of damage can let a potion be used on it, so getting to that value's not too hard)
Munna does not deserve upper mid... it's really, really, really annoying to train; it gets CM and Psychic soooo late that I had to overlevel it like crazy so I could evolve with all of its good moves. It's admittedly pretty good after that, though, and is a prime candidate for rugged helmet
Made some of the changes. I'm going to say "no" on dropping the Bird to Bottom yet since it has minor utility in the third gym. The ones I at least glanced at but "didn't think too much to give weight on yet":
- Otamaru and Yooteri down. Not sure on Yooteri. Definitely no on Otamaru, since it's actually pretty good. Probably better than Hiyappu, at least leveling wise. Has anyone seriously used Hiyappu efficiently to comment on it?
- Yurian down. Um... not sure on this either.
- Purotooga up. Need more opinions on this. Willing to buy it.
I'll be taking Denchura for a spin this round and see what happens. Looks promising at least.
- Otamaru and Yooteri down. Not sure on Yooteri. Definitely no on Otamaru, since it's actually pretty good. Probably better than Hiyappu, at least leveling wise. Has anyone seriously used Hiyappu efficiently to comment on it?
- Yurian down. Um... not sure on this either.
- Purotooga up. Need more opinions on this. Willing to buy it.
I'll be taking Denchura for a spin this round and see what happens. Looks promising at least.
I'm sorry but you must be doing something wrong, I found it really easy to bring Hitomushi up to level with the rest of my team. If you give it a Lucky Egg and put the battle mode on "switch", and go to the 6th gym as soon as you catch one, you're racking up around 1800exp per Pokemon you fight in there. By the time you're out of the gym it should be at the same level as your other Pokemon, and with decent special attack and two great stab moves to begin with (base 70 special fire and base 50 special ghost) it's a breeze to get to level 41. And you can get a Dusk Stone from that Kibago cave as soon as you get Surf, so you can go from Hitomushi directly to Shanderra without ever using the middle evo. You can easily have a Shandera by the time you reach the 7th gym. In Sekka city you can buy Fire Blast, and if you can make do with Evil Eye for a little while, you can pick up a Shadow Ball TM in the Ancient Castle (which is right after the 7th gym). So there's no need to level up the middle evo to level 53 to learn shadow ball.
Hitomushi deserves to be way higher.
Aren't we missing a couple mons?
Not that Melarva would ever hope to be above bottom tier, but... it exists.
Not that Melarva would ever hope to be above bottom tier, but... it exists.
I caught Hiyappu in Yagaruma Forest, so it was lv. 15 when I got it. It was easy to train there thanks to Water Gun (except with annoying Kurumirus) and you can evolve it at lv. 22, since that's when it learns Boiling Water (plus, you have access to the Water Stone right after Yagurama Forest).
It was amazing. Believe it or not, it solo'd the 4th Electric Gym (she could outspeed and OHKO Emongas with Boiling Water and 2HKO Zeburaika with it, whiling surviving a Wild Bolt) for me. Well, here's a rundown of how well Hiyappu would do in each Gym:
1st Gym: If you started with Tsutaja, this is your best bet.
2nd Gym: Not the best. Although I say this is a tough gym no matter what Pokemon you have (I actually lost with Chaobu - freaking hypnosis...)
3rd Gym: Useful against Ishizumai and can take down Hoiiga as well.
4th Gym: Although the type match-up seems unbalanced, he can acually do pretty well in this Gym if he's already evolved. Mine was lv. 25 when he solo'd it.
5th Gym: Boiling Water can take out two of Yakon's Pokemon, and Grass Knot can take the other one.
6th Gym: Neutral match-up. I didn't use hum in this Gym (solo'd it with Riguree).
7th Gym: His Surfs should 2HKO Baibanicchi and Tsunbear and he resists Ice.
8th Gym: If you gave him Blizzard, he'll be very important in this Gym, but you'll have to look out for accuracy.
E4 Psychic: Another neutral match-up. Gochiruzeru has Thunderbolt for you to worry about. If you evolved him later, you could use Crunch to beat it (although I don't recommend it).
E4 Ghost: With Surf and Grass Knot, he can destroy Burunkeru, Shanderaa and Goruggo. Very useful.
E4 Dark: Warubiaru is dead thanks to Surf, and Leparasudu shouldn't survive one either.
E4 Fighting: Neutral match-up. Again, STAB Surf is a very strong attack, even neutral.
N: Archeos can be easily defeated with Surf and Puratooga with Grass Knot. All of his other Pokemon are neutral to Water, most-important-pokemon-in-his-party notwithstanding.
Geechisu: Gamageroge can be taken down with Grass Knot, but the rest of his team is tough to take down, especially Saazando. He was the only member of my team that could outspeed Hydragon, but he didn't have Blizzard. =p
I would say this is top/high tier stuff. What do you guys think?
There are 3 major problems with your argument on Hitomoshi:
- It's not obtainable until after 5 badges
- It needs to be babied
- It does not evolve until level 41
So it really can't go up much higher.
I did and it was a pretty meh pokémon until lv21, when it learned Boiling Water. I don't know about you guys, but the move made it one of the powerhouses of my team... Until ~26. After that, it only became good again at 31, when it learned Acrobat and I could finally evolve it. I couldn't use it after those mines after sixth gym as it died (as I'm Nuzlocking) but, from what I gather, it should be at least Mid-tier. It packs a punch, but is kinda difficult to train from ~14 to 21 (due to having only lol Water Gun) and from ~25 to 31 (as its stats are too low before evolving).
Lol what are you, a democrat? >:|
But fair enough, I had problems training it from 36 to 41 as I only had the mines(?) for it (I let my Gear take care of the sixth gym). It doesn't change the fact you have to "baby" it for quite a while, as its stats must be worse than lol Magikarp.
Looking at the list on the first page, I think that many of you are underestimating Maggyo. I may not have played the games, but it has quite a good level up movepool and can be found easily by Surfing. I'll admit it does have a lot of problems (Slow, struggles against the gym found before and after it and shamefully can't learn any Ice Type attacks), but it can't be as bad as frigging SHIBISHIRASU. I think it should be upgraded to Low.
I have more opinions on the list but I'll edit them into this post later.
I have more opinions on the list but I'll edit them into this post later.
Sorry, but that makes all you arguments invalid. Personal experience is absolutely necessary to create in-game tiers.
I have a question: should post-E4 stuff be considered as well? Because some Pokemon only get great moves/evolve after it.
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