In-Game Tier List Discussion

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"Leavanny rapes 3/4 of the elite four"

Gotta lol at this. Leavanny's damage output is so low it cannot even OHKO with supereffective STAB attacks Krokodile, Jellicent, Gothitelle, Musharna, and Reuniclus, all of which can hit it very hard in return. The only ones it can beat are... Liepard and Golurk. The rest of the E4 pokes can beat it one-on-one. Oh yeah, and not only does it never outpace Hydreigon (unless it's overlevelled), it never OHKOs it either.

I've used it and, despite performing great against random Trainers, it doesn't help at all in any of the "boss" battles.
 
There is nothing wrong with Bug Bite as an STAB untill lvl 36, (not hard at all to reach lvl 36).

@Vladimir: lol. Yes Leavanny does OHKO Krookodile..... we all know that Krook has shitty defense, and is hit for 2x damage by both of your stabs......, i OHKO'd Jellicent with Leavanny btw, tho it was after a Swords Dance.


Leavanyy works great for me, idk whats with all the crazy comments on it.

If Lillipup deserves high (which it doesnt) then i dont see why Leavanny doesnt.
 
Use Lilipup once throughout the entire game, not boxing it after the 3rd gym, and you'll see why it deserves high tier. It OHKOs EVERYTHING but the bulkiest of pokes with its stupidly powerful Take Down, while Intimidate helps it get a Work Up to sweep if necessary. 2 Work Ups is all it needs to sweep Shauntal, arguably the toughest E4 member too.

After Intimidate my Leavanny didn't one-shot Grimsley's Krokodile. My experience with it shows me it doesn't perform well in gym/E4 battles.
 
Without Leavanny, I wouldn't have beaten the Elite Four. My Leavanny helped me with EVERY E4 member. Jellicent would've been a pain in the ass if it weren't for Leavanny. She solo'd Caitlin and helped GREATLY in beating Ghetsis. She was my second most useful member, right after Cinccino.
 
Why is Oshawott so high?

It sure does have the best distribuition possible, but it just doesn't hit hard enough. Water + normal coverage is pretty mediocre. As always, it was overlevered, like every starter I ever used ever, and even then, darumakka and sandile were doing more damage. I'm talking about a 8 lvs between then here. Hell, Blitze of all thing had better output/utility simply for the sake of having more coverage and making Emolga a breeze.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, and I would love to know what is it.
 
Breludicolo said:
So no, it is not outdamaged by Watchog when you realize that it has base 103 attack (I got mine to evolve at around level 23-25, no grinding, just loooooots of potions).
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Until you hit 36, you yourself said that you will be using Return for damage. Watchog's 85 Attack when combined with his 153 Power Returns are going to hit harder than Leavanny's 102 Power Returns.
 
I.care.0 said:
Why is Oshawott so high?

It sure does have the best distribuition possible, but it just doesn't hit hard enough. Water + normal coverage is pretty mediocre. As always, it was overlevered, like every starter I ever used ever, and even then, darumakka and sandile were doing more damage. I'm talking about a 8 lvs between then here. Hell, Blitze of all thing had better output/utility simply for the sake of having more coverage and making Emolga a breeze.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, and I would love to know what is it.
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Out of all the starters, Oshawott has the best balance of offense, defense, and speed, has a good level up movepool, learns good moves through TMs and the move relearner, and even if it didn't, Water + Normal is one of the best offensive combos in the game, hitting almost everything for at least neutral damage. Plus, being a starter gives it an advantage from the start, being the first Pokemon available in the game.
 
I.care.0 said:
Why is Oshawott so high?

It sure does have the best distribuition possible, but it just doesn't hit hard enough. Water + normal coverage is pretty mediocre. As always, it was overlevered, like every starter I ever used ever, and even then, darumakka and sandile were doing more damage. I'm talking about a 8 lvs between then here. Hell, Blitze of all thing had better output/utility simply for the sake of having more coverage and making Emolga a breeze.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, and I would love to know what is it.
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The only thing you'll find in game that resists Water/Normal is Ferroseed. I'd say that's pretty good coverage. Not to mention it can learn Grass Knot and X-Scissor (which gives it perfect coverage in Unova).

In both of my play throughs, Oashwott was always solid, and even in the end game he performs fine. X-Scissor/ Megahorn gives it an option against half of the E4 (and he can tank a hit from Hydreigon and OHKO it back). Also, my team members were never more than 2 levels apart from each other, and Oshawott/ Samurott was always pulling his own weight and proved invaluable many times. At the end of the game, it's not high tier, but overall he definitely is, and that's what counts.

That, and he is clearly the best Water pokemon available in game, with the exception of maybe Panpour.
 
I.care.0 said:
Why is Oshawott so high?

It sure does have the best distribuition possible, but it just doesn't hit hard enough. Water + normal coverage is pretty mediocre. As always, it was overlevered, like every starter I ever used ever, and even then, darumakka and sandile were doing more damage. I'm talking about a 8 lvs between then here. Hell, Blitze of all thing had better output/utility simply for the sake of having more coverage and making Emolga a breeze.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, and I would love to know what is it.
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Hmm.

Alright.

He gets decent Special Attack to start with. He gets Razor Shell upon evolution, and shortly before he evolves you can pick up a Mystic Water in Nacrene City. Razor Shell boosted by Mystic Water IMO DOES hit hard enough. It gets a number of coverage TMs, including Grass Knot. It's probably going to be your first evolution. After Gym 6 he gets Surf...which roflstomps things. He gets Blizzard at Gym 7.

Additionally, he can tank a Shadow Ball from Shauntal's Chandelure and OHKO it back (along with her Golurk) with Surf. Krookodile fares similarly, and he gets Megahorn to own the rest of Grimsley's team besides Bisharp. Also gets utility versus Caitlin.
 
Ok, so Watchog outdamages it with Return. How much relevance does this have?

Vladimir, note that it learns Swords Dance in the late 40s. This is around the time of the Elite Four and X-Scissor/Shadow Claw (as well as Leaf Blade for a few members), as you notice, hit super-effectively on all but Marshal. Also, for those praising Pidove's ability to Scopecrit, Leavanny can do the same sans super luck, just with two of its moves.

Otherwise, you never really feel like it's weak in any sense except around level 32, which is when you're veeeery close to getting its best STABs.
 
I've been using Bouffaron a lot and I think it needs to be moved to mid. It may come very late in the game, but it destroys. It is super bulky and really powerful. It has access to megahorn, which rapes two elite four members and hydreigon, and the super powerful head charge. The recoil on head charge is barely noticeable due to the high HP stat. I think it should even be in high if it didn't come so late, but it should not be placed in low simply because it's hard to get.
 
@sax king: I'd just beaten Dreyden when i saw your comment, so i went ahead and tested Bouffalant, but it turned out to be horrible. Opponents in Route 10 and the Victory Road can most of the time 2HKO Bouffalant, while he cannot OHKO them back and, as if that wasn't enough, he cannot survive even a single attack from the hard-hitters in the pokemon league. Luckily enough, i found a Gentle nature, so i was able to take Shauntal's Fire Blast with 2 HP left, but then Payback did less than half >_> I found myself dethfoddering it in all the other Pokemon League battles just to get a hit off on stuff like Eelektross or Sigilyph, which the rest of my team couldn't handle well. It was a hinderance, really.

That said, i found Golett to be an ok addition to my team. There were a lot of Gurdurrs/ Boldores after i caught it to train against, while my lvl 42 Golett (with Eviolite) swept through Marshall. It definately doesn't deserve low tier, it should be mid instead.

@Breludicolo: I guess the reason for my horrible experiences with Leavanny was that i never was lvl 46 b4 the E4.
 
Vladimir said:
In my last playthrough I also used Joltik, and i was negatively surprised. This thing is horrible until it evolves, so why is it high tier? It needs a ton of babying to be effective, and its first stage is absolutely pathetic, just like Litwick. It should be at mid. It cannot "train" at the Flying gym either, because it's very slow and only neutral to flying, being 2HKOed by anything in there due to its lackluster defenses, while being notoriously weak to even 4HKO back >_> After it evolves it's good, but still, not too good, only with base 97 sp.atk. Thunder isn't till the 7th gym either. Seriously, it should be moved down a tier.
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How on earth did you play? From capture until Celestial Tower, I had mine lead and Volt Switch out to let an older team member handle things, and during the tower climb I gave it the Exp. Share. That's hardly "tons of babying". One-shotted the first gym trainer's Pokemon with Volt Switch and then it evolved and wrecked everything in there, and it came out of there as my highest leveled team member, and by the time the others had caught up I had access to Thunder.
 
Volt Switching out and using the Exp. Share on it from lvl 24 till 36 IS, imo, tons of babying. For the entirety of Chargestone Cave, Route 7, the Celestial Tower, Mistralton Gym and the exploration with Surf Joltik does nothing but leech experience off the rest of the party, essentially wasting a teamslot. It is completely unusable for the 10+ lvls till it evolves into Galvantula. Pokemon in high tier are supposed to not require any babying at all. They hit hard from the moment you catch them till the end of the game- Joltik needs to wait 10+ lvls to even come close to their damage output and speed, while even as Galvantula it's still frail as fuck- in fact, most mid-tier pokes are much better than it.

For instance, i'll compare it to Ducklett, because their stats are alike. They both start off with below average stats, but when they evolve both become amazing, so on paper they look similar. Ducklett is obtainable b4 the Cold storage on similar lvl with the rest of your team and starts with base 60 and 65 STAB attacks. If you look up the trainers list in Serebii or Gamefaqs for the Cold Storage and the 5th gym, you'll notice that at least 75% of their pokes can be hit for supereffective damage from Ducklett. In the Cold Storage you find the Scald TM and at lvl 27 it learns Air Slash. It's also one of the most reliable answers to Excadrill, with Featherdance + Scald beating it 10 times out of 10. It also learns 4 HMs. In short, Ducklett's stats might not be great, but high BP STABs help it not be completely useless till its evolution.

Joltik is available in Chargestone Cave on a significantly lower lvl than the rest of your team, but it only starts off with a base 55 attack as its strongest, whereas the rest of your team most likely have access to base 80+ attacks. There are only 3 pokes in the whole cave weak to Electric, 2 of which Joltik cannot beat (Archen and Tirtouga). In route 7 there are again only 3 pokes weak to Electric, but Simipour and Tranquill outspeed and OHKO Joltik. On the Celestial Tower Joltik can hit most psychics for supereffective damage with X-scizzor, which barely 3HKOs them, while they can easily OHKO back. In the gym, all Flying-types outspeed and OHKO (or 2HKO with the Eviolite) Joltik, who cannot even 4HKO them back. It only evolves by the time you get Surf, and even then it's worthless till you cross all the sea routes and get Thunderbolt. It only learns Cut from HM moves, too. In short, Joltik is a hinderance on any team from the moment it's caught till barely b4 the Twist Mountain.
 
Vladimir said:
Volt Switching out and using the Exp. Share on it from lvl 24 till 36 IS, imo, tons of babying. For the entirety of Chargestone Cave, Route 7, the Celestial Tower, Mistralton Gym and the exploration with Surf Joltik does nothing but leech experience off the rest of the party, essentially wasting a teamslot. It is completely unusable for the 10+ lvls till it evolves into Galvantula. Pokemon in high tier are supposed to not require any babying at all. They hit hard from the moment you catch them till the end of the game- Joltik needs to wait 10+ lvls to even come close to their damage output and speed, while even as Galvantula it's still frail as fuck- in fact, most mid-tier pokes are much better than it.

For instance, i'll compare it to Ducklett, because their stats are alike. They both start off with below average stats, but when they evolve both become amazing, so on paper they look similar. Ducklett is obtainable b4 the Cold storage on similar lvl with the rest of your team and starts with base 60 and 65 STAB attacks. If you look up the trainers list in Serebii or Gamefaqs for the Cold Storage and the 5th gym, you'll notice that at least 75% of their pokes can be hit for supereffective damage from Ducklett. In the Cold Storage you find the Scald TM and at lvl 27 it learns Air Slash. It's also one of the most reliable answers to Excadrill, with Featherdance + Scald beating it 10 times out of 10. It also learns 4 HMs. In short, Ducklett's stats might not be great, but high BP STABs help it not be completely useless till its evolution.

Joltik is available in Chargestone Cave on a significantly lower lvl than the rest of your team, but it only starts off with a base 55 attack as its strongest, whereas the rest of your team most likely have access to base 80+ attacks. There are only 3 pokes in the whole cave weak to Electric, 2 of which Joltik cannot beat (Archen and Tirtouga). In route 7 there are again only 3 pokes weak to Electric, but Simipour and Tranquill outspeed and OHKO Joltik. On the Celestial Tower Joltik can hit most psychics for supereffective damage with X-scizzor, which barely 3HKOs them, while they can easily OHKO back. In the gym, all Flying-types outspeed and OHKO (or 2HKO with the Eviolite) Joltik, who cannot even 4HKO them back. It only evolves by the time you get Surf, and even then it's worthless till you cross all the sea routes and get Thunderbolt. It only learns Cut from HM moves, too. In short, Joltik is a hinderance on any team from the moment it's caught till barely b4 the Twist Mountain.
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Seriously, we played VERY differently, since my Joltik was ready for evolution very early in the gym and I didn't need to go out of my way to train it. Keep in mind that Volt Switch has 70 base power, which should tide you over until Thunderbolt or Thunder. Also remember that you get a Lucky Egg in Chargestone Cave to help counter the experience leeching you mention.

Also, you keep saying that it's slow and 4HKOs the flying gym stuff. Mine must be a complete freak, since neither of those happened with mine.
 
My team was never past level 32 after beating the Driftveil gym, and Joltik is available from levels 24-27, so I don't know where you're getting this 10 level deficit, especially when it's easy to get a higher leveled one easily considering the encounter rate is just under 40%. Also, once he gets Signal Beam at level 34 his damage output jumps significantly, and he can take care of himself until he evolves 2 levels later.

My Joltik did fine OHKOing Litwicks in Celestial Tower with Volt Switch and it got to a high enough level that it did fine in the flying gym in both of my runs.

Considering HMs are only required once in the game pre-E4, it doesn't really matter if he only learns Cut.
 
Vladimir said:
Volt Switching out and using the Exp. Share on it from lvl 24 till 36 IS, imo, tons of babying. For the entirety of Chargestone Cave, Route 7, the Celestial Tower, Mistralton Gym and the exploration with Surf Joltik does nothing but leech experience off the rest of the party, essentially wasting a teamslot. It is completely unusable for the 10+ lvls till it evolves into Galvantula. Pokemon in high tier are supposed to not require any babying at all. They hit hard from the moment you catch them till the end of the game- Joltik needs to wait 10+ lvls to even come close to their damage output and speed, while even as Galvantula it's still frail as fuck- in fact, most mid-tier pokes are much better than it.

For instance, i'll compare it to Ducklett, because their stats are alike. They both start off with below average stats, but when they evolve both become amazing, so on paper they look similar. Ducklett is obtainable b4 the Cold storage on similar lvl with the rest of your team and starts with base 60 and 65 STAB attacks. If you look up the trainers list in Serebii or Gamefaqs for the Cold Storage and the 5th gym, you'll notice that at least 75% of their pokes can be hit for supereffective damage from Ducklett. In the Cold Storage you find the Scald TM and at lvl 27 it learns Air Slash. It's also one of the most reliable answers to Excadrill, with Featherdance + Scald beating it 10 times out of 10. It also learns 4 HMs. In short, Ducklett's stats might not be great, but high BP STABs help it not be completely useless till its evolution.

Joltik is available in Chargestone Cave on a significantly lower lvl than the rest of your team, but it only starts off with a base 55 attack as its strongest, whereas the rest of your team most likely have access to base 80+ attacks. There are only 3 pokes in the whole cave weak to Electric, 2 of which Joltik cannot beat (Archen and Tirtouga). In route 7 there are again only 3 pokes weak to Electric, but Simipour and Tranquill outspeed and OHKO Joltik. On the Celestial Tower Joltik can hit most psychics for supereffective damage with X-scizzor, which barely 3HKOs them, while they can easily OHKO back. In the gym, all Flying-types outspeed and OHKO (or 2HKO with the Eviolite) Joltik, who cannot even 4HKO them back. It only evolves by the time you get Surf, and even then it's worthless till you cross all the sea routes and get Thunderbolt. It only learns Cut from HM moves, too. In short, Joltik is a hinderance on any team from the moment it's caught till barely b4 the Twist Mountain.
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Huh, my experience was completely different. Caught every single non-Unnerve Joltik on the way to Mistralton (with a single Dusk Ball per), picked out the best (since you can know which ability it has and its so common, you should have quite a few), slapped an EXP share on him and did the Tower. By the time I left, without ever switching her in or going out of the way, I believe Joltik was around 33. Charge Beam then proceeded to demolish the gym trainers (never had to switch Joltik out), and with the Lucky Egg, she had evolved shortly before Skyla, and by the time I had left the gym, Galvantula was the highest leveled member on the team.

If tossing an XP share on a pokemon for an extremely short period of time counts as babying, then I guess it requires a bit of babying. But I never actually had to go out of my way to catch a good Joltik and get it caught up.
 
@Sajak: By 10+ lvl "deficit" i mean the experience it needs to evolve. Signal Beam doesn't help much, seeing as Joltik's attack isn't much higher than its sp.atk and you get X-Scizzor earlier. You still can't 2HKO Bug-weak opponents.

@Serious_Business: How in the world you levelled up from 24-27 to 33 in a tower which doesn't give enough experience to lvl up more than 3 or 4 lvls is beyond me. Additionally, Joltik could never beat the gym trainers at 33 - it's slower than everything but Ducklett in there, and OHKOed by all of their pokes.
 
Makes sense I guess, but still catching one above level 24 is quite easy, and if you have it Volt Switch out of even a couple Audino's (or any other wild Pokes) it will quickly level up and evolve. My Joltik also gained about 3-4 levels in Celestial Tower (as well as SpA EVs from Litwicks) and Signal Beam became much more potent than X-Scissor, and I always had it Volt Switch out on any shaking grass battles (I used repels pretty much the entire game unless I had just caught something).
 
About Maractus:

I spent a good twenty minutes trying to find one earlier (since I already beat the game and wanted one), but my younger brother (who lucked out and found one when he took a wrong turn in Route 4) loves it, and I can see why. It's already fully evolved so it has high stats upon catching it and gets moves like Giga Drain (iirc) and 120BP Petal Dance. tl;dr Mid because it's a bitch to find but it's good.
 
I just want to say that Joltik deserves to stay in high tier. I'm not quite sure how all of you who are bashing on it used it, but mine worked out pretty well. I caught it at level 25 and managed to get it to level 29 before the Mistralton gym with a little lucky egg and switching abuse. Gave it Volt Switch and Charge Beam, and literally had it solo the entire Mistralton gym (no forced switching from Volt Switch if it's the only thing in your team). And thanks to the lucky egg, it was at level 36 after beating Skyla. Granted, I was lucky enough to get a Timid one. My only complaint about it is that it has little chance to shine after Mistralton since the water routes are optional, but it still pulls its weight. In short, Joltik should stay in high tier.
 
Vladimir said:
@Sajak: By 10+ lvl "deficit" i mean the experience it needs to evolve. Signal Beam doesn't help much, seeing as Joltik's attack isn't much higher than its sp.atk and you get X-Scizzor earlier. You still can't 2HKO Bug-weak opponents.

@Serious_Business: How in the world you levelled up from 24-27 to 33 in a tower which doesn't give enough experience to lvl up more than 3 or 4 lvls is beyond me. Additionally, Joltik could never beat the gym trainers at 33 - it's slower than everything but Ducklett in there, and OHKOed by all of their pokes.
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Don't forget, there's quite a few trainers in the Tower, and a lot of the trainers on the way to the tower and X-Scissor TM are fairly lucrative in the XP department.

I don't remember how often I was outsped, but I don't remember ever having a problem beating the trainers with just Joltik, and I certainly was never OHKOd (Ducklett obviously dies instantly, Swoobat and Tranquill aren't particularly strong, and for that matter Joltik has the same speed stat as Tranquill).
 
On the topic of Joltic:

No, it shouldn't be high teir, due to after-the-5th gym avalibilty. But that is the ONLY reason why. He does demolish the 6th Gym. He does ruin a significant portion of the Tower, which is full of Psychics.

Need I bring up the Klink argument again? [Klink is caught at the same point, and performs as well, if not better, in all major fights bar Renbu afterwards]

---

On the Topic of Maractus, and some other stuff:

Well, I finished my in-game run, filled with mons no-one else would use..

Maracatus owns. If you're playing White, and can't get a Lilligant, or don't want to risk obedience issues from the trade Lilligant, Maractus is an EXCELLENT substitute. Easily better than Snivy. Maractus gets Healing [Giga Drain/Synthisis], stronger grass STAB [Petal Dance], and better coverage [Poision Jab, Sucker Punch, Pin Missile]

Not to mention the fact that Maractus can demolish N. Switch it in on Carracosta. Acupressure. Heal if its lucky enough to actually hit you with Giga Drain, or even an item. ROFLSTOMP N's team with a series of OHKO's. Even Kilnkklang was OHKO'ed by my Maractus.

That said, Lilligant can probobly do that too.

Maractus remains useful post-game as well. Or, at least, mine is. That said, mine is Bold, 31 IV Defense, and now has Cotton Guard, making it a physical wall @_@

Trubbish, however, was useless for most of the game, except a breif period where he got Sludge Bomb.

However, he DID make a valient effort at walling N and Gehetis. Too bad he got critted whenever he got to +4 Sp.Def.
 
...
Seems like people don't quite get what I'm talking about. I'll use a different example this time. Let's compare Joltik to Axew.

Axew is available after the 6th gym, starts off with Dragon Claw and gets DD one level afterwards. It's powerful enough to OHKO most pokemon after a DD, while Eviolite will help him get up a second, at which point he can sweep through anything but Steels. The reason why Axew is placed in Mid-tier, however, is the fact that it's available after the 6th gym, which is fairly late in the game. Now, look at Joltik. Galvantula's actually only useful once you get the Thunderbolt TM, which is later than the point when you can catch Axew. Not only that, but for a large amount of time (10+ lvls), it needs to waste a teamslot, not doing anything but leech XP off the rest of the team. So tell me, why is Axew in Mid, while Joltik is in high?
 
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