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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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Only the opposite-version one appears in shaking grass. In Black, Sawk appears in normal grass, same with Throh in white. They're not all that rare, I've run into several just by wandering around/grinding in the outer Pinwheel forest area.
^Exactly why Sawk sucks in White. Throh isn't anything better, though. It's far too slow for my liking, and not as bulky nor hard-hitting as Conkeldurr. Conkeldurr also has that lovely Fighting+Rock coverage that is only resisted competitively by like, what, Claydol, Medicham, Gallade and Golurk, and only Golurk appears ingame. ._.
This may be true in Pinwheel forest but I assure you it is not true of Route 10. Both Sawk and Throh appear in the shaking grass of both versions on Route 10.
But both are still rare anyway.
Throh gets Revenge at lvl 21 tho. If you take damage before using Revenge, it becomes 180 bp (including STAB).
ALSO FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE STOP POSTING YOUR GOD DAMNED TEAMS! WE. DON'T. CARE.
People aren't posting their teams to brag or anything, just to rate the Pokemon they actually used instead of pure Theorymoning.
People aren't posting their teams to brag or anything, just to rate the Pokemon they actually used instead of pure Theorymoning.
I could have sworn that the dark grass outside of Pinwheel wasn't available right away, which wouldn't help Sawk in Black. When I get around to a Black run, I'll have to try to get one and see if the ~1 in 15 chance of an encounter containing a good Sawk is high enough to change my opinion on his rarity (1/5 to encounter in dark grass, 17/25 to not get a -Atk/Spd nature, 1/2 to get Sturdy).
I've never really used Sawk, since I only got one on my trip to Route 18, long after my team wanted him, especially since it had only a neutral nature and Inner Focus. I can see why he's obviously a great Pokemon, but I'm not seeing how he could deserve his own higher-than-Uber tiering.
Could someone please explain to me how Sawk is especially good from the mid-30's until Close Combat becomes available? The rest of the theoretical Ubers Tier (Darumaka, Drilbur, Archen) are great at pretty much any point in the game (they evolve before too many Pokemon outperform them), but Sawk seems like he would falter somewhat as more Pokemon start approaching his high Attack, only with better defenses, speed, STABs, and/or coverage (lacking stuff like X-Scissor, Shadow Claw, and Aerial Ace is a disappointment).
Is it mostly an issue of the relative scarcity of Fighting STABs in the game (or good Fighting moves in general, to be honest), or is it something else that makes him so amazing once other stuff starts to catch up?
Listing 6 (or more if you include stuff you didn't use on your final team) Pokemon at once generally means you aren't making a serious argument about the tiering of any given Pokemon, you're just listing off how your team performed. Each post probably shouldn't argue the tiering of more than about two Pokemon.
Ideally, an argument should have both solid Theorymon and experience behind it, but I would say that the Theorymon is actually the more important factor since it isn't based on how lucky you got with Nature/IVs.
I've never really used Sawk, since I only got one on my trip to Route 18, long after my team wanted him, especially since it had only a neutral nature and Inner Focus. I can see why he's obviously a great Pokemon, but I'm not seeing how he could deserve his own higher-than-Uber tiering.
Could someone please explain to me how Sawk is especially good from the mid-30's until Close Combat becomes available? The rest of the theoretical Ubers Tier (Darumaka, Drilbur, Archen) are great at pretty much any point in the game (they evolve before too many Pokemon outperform them), but Sawk seems like he would falter somewhat as more Pokemon start approaching his high Attack, only with better defenses, speed, STABs, and/or coverage (lacking stuff like X-Scissor, Shadow Claw, and Aerial Ace is a disappointment).
Is it mostly an issue of the relative scarcity of Fighting STABs in the game (or good Fighting moves in general, to be honest), or is it something else that makes him so amazing once other stuff starts to catch up?
Listing 6 (or more if you include stuff you didn't use on your final team) Pokemon at once generally means you aren't making a serious argument about the tiering of any given Pokemon, you're just listing off how your team performed. Each post probably shouldn't argue the tiering of more than about two Pokemon.
Ideally, an argument should have both solid Theorymon and experience behind it, but I would say that the Theorymon is actually the more important factor since it isn't based on how lucky you got with Nature/IVs.
Even when Sawk does start to slow down in the late 30s and 40s, he is still better than most Pokemon are capable of being, and he will still OHKO Fighting weak Pokemon with Brick Break. So really, even in this span he is still at least High tier, and once he gets CC he is easily Uber again.
I don't think I understand your logic. Sawk clearly outperforms Darumaka up to level 35, which is over half the game. How can you claim that Darumaka is "great at pretty much any point in the game" and not say the same of Sawk? Both Darumaka and Sawk have a phase of about 14 levels where they are "merely" good, and I'd argue that at his worst, Sawk is still better than pre-evo Darumaka. From level 35-48, he still gets a STAB Brick Break that runs off a 125 base attack stat, which absolutely fantastic when you consider how many ice, steel, and dark types there are in BW.
Most Pokemon in the high tier spend over half the game just trying to achieve parity with Sawk. At his "worst," Sawk is high tier, and at his best, he's clearly outperforming everything else. Again, I don't see how a Pokemon being "only" high tier material for around 14 levels of the entire game (when he's available for nearly the entire game) is enough to bring him down from uber to high. I don't think there was ever a point in my game when Sawk was outpaced by Pokemon like Oshowott, Lilligant, or Sigilyph.
Not entirely true. While his better speed, defenses, and accuracy means that Sawk is generally the better choice, Darumaka has a higher damage potential and a STAB that has rarer resists. "Clearly outperforms" is an overstatement.
Because Pokemon who are much more easily obtained catch up to his raw power one by one. At level 32 (which is where this effect really starts showing itself), here's a list of some Pokemon who can already outdamage Sawk's Brick Break (the numbers are Attack * base power of primary STAB, adjusted for abilities/bonuses if easy to set up):
9375 - Sawk (Brick Break)
10800 - Excadril (Dig)
10125 - Darumaka (Fire Punch)
9750 - Scraggy (Hi Jump Kick)
10200 - Stoutland (Return)
10710 - Unfeasant (Return)
7030-17575 - Cinccino (Tail Slap)
12320 - Archen (Acrobat)
12000 - Throh (Revenge)
Darumaka isn't "merely" good for his entire tenure as a Darumaka, he's great. At that point in the game, very little has both the power and the speed to kill Darumaka before he can attack, while Darumaka has an 80% chance to kill pretty much anything the game can produce. When he finally gets to the point where he would start to lose usefulness, the game throws an endless supply of Grass, Bug, and Steel types at you.
There are bunches of Pokemon who make up for their lower offensive stat with more powerful STABs. Even those with only slightly better STABs and lower Attack generally have some combination of multiple typing (more STAB choices), some good gimmick, higher speed, better defenses, or more coverage moves. So while they do lose raw damage, they make up for it in other areas.
So in other words, yes, being Fighting-type is a major contributing factor in what makes him so good.
While I'm not going to argue that Fighting isn't an amazing offensive typing (because it would require more Devil's advocacy than even I am comfortable with), I do have to ask a couple questions: What Steel-types are you talking about (other than a couple strays, very few are found outside Chargestone)? What Pokemon can't 1-shot any Ice Pokemon you find?
At which point Sawk spends the remainder of the game wishing he was as good as the rest of them (until Close Combat anyways).
Debatable. Pretend he wasn't available in Pinwheel, meaning you had to wait until Route 18 to get one. Would he still be High Tier? I kinda doubt it. He's just not all that special at that stage of the game except for his typing. No utility, average defenses, good attack but weak STAB, and non-spectacular coverage options. He might make it because of the lack of Fighting types and the fact that he gains Close Combat at the perfect time to wreck a couple particularly annoying endboss Pokemon, but I would be amazed if he made high without a fight.
You either have very low expectations for what is high or are overvaluing the Fighting STAB.
Let's take a quick look at the common threads between the other three Ubers:
1) Are available at or before Route 4 (Sawk qualifies)
2) Are practically given to you (Sawk does not qualify, even in Black)
3) Do not need a particular Ability (Sawk does not qualify, since Sturdy makes such a huge difference in some battles).
4) Have significantly above-average offenses at every stage of the game <Drilbur cheats a little since he has a couple short dry spells shortly before Dig and maybe Excadrill are available, but he's still quite good even at those points> (Sawk does not qualify, since he has 14+ levels of having a slight damage advantage at best).
Bad example since Samurott's Surf outdamages Sawk's Brick Break, he has better defenses, and has access to Aqua Jet.
...is High Tier for utility and power after boosts, not brute strength. Not a good comparison.
Since several people have argued for its removal, this probably isn't the best comparison, either. And besides, most of the argument for Siggy is about his defenses, right?
Sigilyph has a balance between offense and defense, and also has magnificent Magic Guard to resist things like poison trolling.. While its STABs fall short sometimes, the Pokemon you compare Sawk to aren't meant to be the same as Sawk, and Darumaka is equally good, though Hustle can be a dealbreaker.
To be honest, Sawk isn't really that great, when you have to compare him to Timburr. Timburr can train in Pinwheel Forest because he has Rock Throw, and Sheer Force Timburr can make use of a ridiculously powerful Rock Smash earlygame, and even Guts Timburr can enjoy a 50% Defense drop, allowing him to turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Sure, Sawk has way higher attack, but Bugs completely resist his attacks. Rock Throw is also non-contact, so Timburr won't get poisoned, but nobody wants a Guts-boosted Timburr raping everything.
On a side note, Inner Focus does absolutely crap for Sawk. :/ Flinches are uncommon ingame, and well, Sawk outspeeds those trying to flinch him anyway.
Fighting+Rock coverage is extremely good ingame when the only thing resisting it is Golett's evolution family. :/ Sawk doesn't get this until Resort Desert, when you get lolRockTomb, irrelevant when Sawk already has STABbed Low Sweep. Brick Break is given away as a TM, so Sawk is really only boasting Brick Break from Driftveil to Iccirus. And the only 'mon in Driftveil that is hit SE by Brick Break is Excadrill. Timburr gets Bulk Up earlier, and when Sawk gets Bulk Up Timburr gets something even better: Sheer Force-boosted Rock Slide. Not to mention, upon reaching Nimbasa Timburr can learn Payback, which makes him even godlier and not get walled by Golurk. Sawk can't use it well because he doesn't have Timburr's crap speed. By Elite 4 Timburr(as Gurdurr/Conkeldurr) gets Hammer Arm, essentially hammering the last nail in Sawk's coffin, as Sawk needs 4 more levels to get Close Combat.
tl;dr: Timburr's very early access to Fighting + Rock coverage means that he is way easier to train. Gurdurr also gets the important moves earlier than Sawk, while being able to utilise Payback effectively. Oh, and Eviolite. Sawk can't hold it, Timburr can.
Sawk also doesn't really own the Normal Gym when Timburr and Throh does it as well, and Timburr is a lot more common than Sawk. :/
On a side note, Inner Focus does absolutely crap for Sawk. :/ Flinches are uncommon ingame, and well, Sawk outspeeds those trying to flinch him anyway.
Fighting+Rock coverage is extremely good ingame when the only thing resisting it is Golett's evolution family. :/ Sawk doesn't get this until Resort Desert, when you get lolRockTomb, irrelevant when Sawk already has STABbed Low Sweep. Brick Break is given away as a TM, so Sawk is really only boasting Brick Break from Driftveil to Iccirus. And the only 'mon in Driftveil that is hit SE by Brick Break is Excadrill. Timburr gets Bulk Up earlier, and when Sawk gets Bulk Up Timburr gets something even better: Sheer Force-boosted Rock Slide. Not to mention, upon reaching Nimbasa Timburr can learn Payback, which makes him even godlier and not get walled by Golurk. Sawk can't use it well because he doesn't have Timburr's crap speed. By Elite 4 Timburr(as Gurdurr/Conkeldurr) gets Hammer Arm, essentially hammering the last nail in Sawk's coffin, as Sawk needs 4 more levels to get Close Combat.
tl;dr: Timburr's very early access to Fighting + Rock coverage means that he is way easier to train. Gurdurr also gets the important moves earlier than Sawk, while being able to utilise Payback effectively. Oh, and Eviolite. Sawk can't hold it, Timburr can.
Sawk also doesn't really own the Normal Gym when Timburr and Throh does it as well, and Timburr is a lot more common than Sawk. :/
Sawk> Timburr, mainly due to Speed. Also Sawk starts off with better attack AND defenses than Timburr for at least 10 lvls.
@spweasel: The fact that Sawk starts being outdamaged only at lvl 32 doesn't prove he's not uber, it shows he is. Just for reference, lvl 32 is the average team lvl b4 or even after the 6th gym, which is about 2/3s throughout the game - yet still, Sawk possesses significant advantages over all those pokes you listed that "outdamage him". He doesn't have Darumaka's and Cinchinno's horrible 80% and 85%accuracy, provides a much better offensive type than Excadrill's (in this game at least), higher speed than Scraggy and Throh, while Unfezant and Stountland will rarely have maxed out happiness at lvl 32. Most importantly, none of them have Sturdy, one of the best abilities in the game.
2)HGSS Scyther was even rarer. How the hell does that matter at all?
3) It's laughable how you are trying to portray Sawk's ability as a disadvantage, when he has one of the best abilities in the game, while Archen has a hindering and Excadrill two useless ones.
4) You already state yourself why Drilbur has much lower damage output than Sawk, while Excadrill has only slightly higher - quite a negligible difference, actually - and falls when Sawk obtains CC.
I've played through Black lots of times and I've used Sawk even when i caught it in the route right b4 Victory Road - it certainly pulled its weight, even only with Brick Break. N and Ghetsis are extremely fighting-weak, and Sturdy makes him one of the very few reliable answers to Hydreigon.
@spweasel: The fact that Sawk starts being outdamaged only at lvl 32 doesn't prove he's not uber, it shows he is. Just for reference, lvl 32 is the average team lvl b4 or even after the 6th gym, which is about 2/3s throughout the game - yet still, Sawk possesses significant advantages over all those pokes you listed that "outdamage him". He doesn't have Darumaka's and Cinchinno's horrible 80% and 85%accuracy, provides a much better offensive type than Excadrill's (in this game at least), higher speed than Scraggy and Throh, while Unfezant and Stountland will rarely have maxed out happiness at lvl 32. Most importantly, none of them have Sturdy, one of the best abilities in the game.
The same can be claimed about Sawk. After the 6th gym (that lvl 32 we were talking about) there's Twist Mountain where many Trainers have Boldore and an Ice gym.
Sawk would be high tier even if he was available mid-game, by virtue of Fighting hitting an insane amount of pokes suppereffectively in this game and him being the best in-game fighting-type. Base 75 is NOT a weak STAB by any means.
1) This is Sawk's biggest advantage over the others (except from Drilbur), he appears earlier with a better STAB attack than Fire Fang (due to accuracy)/ lolFury Swipes/ lolAncientpower in Double Kick, and MUCH better stats, right b4 a gym fight where he's extremely helpful. He doesn't simply qualify, he outclasses the other 3 in that regard (Darumaka comes b4 a gym with an advantage over it too, but Burgh is hardly a challenge).
2)HGSS Scyther was even rarer. How the hell does that matter at all?
3) It's laughable how you are trying to portray Sawk's ability as a disadvantage, when he has one of the best abilities in the game, while Archen has a hindering and Excadrill two useless ones.
4) You already state yourself why Drilbur has much lower damage output than Sawk, while Excadrill has only slightly higher - quite a negligible difference, actually - and falls when Sawk obtains CC.
I've played through Black lots of times and I've used Sawk even when i caught it in the route right b4 Victory Road - it certainly pulled its weight, even only with Brick Break. N and Ghetsis are extremely fighting-weak, and Sturdy makes him one of the very few reliable answers to Hydreigon.
If the fact that you are pushing Sawk up because you are doing Black, I suggest that we split Sawk and Throh into 2 separate mons for either version. While Sawk is extremely good in-game, it's ridiculously hard to find in White, which I believe you do not play, and remember my argument about Sigilyph being rare? White Sawk simply fucks you over, it's not even funny. Sawk takes a longer period of time to find in White, which means he is less efficient compared to Timburr, which is just all about the place outside Pinwheel(and still has Fighting+Rock coverage, resisted by Golurk, solved by Payback). Gurdurr gets the important moves earlier than Sawk as well while still being able to achieve 2x damage with Payback. Tierlists are meant to rate efficiency, and spending a long amount of time trying to find a Sawk in White is extremely lame, when you can simply catch a Throh or a Timburr and forget all about Sawk, after all both can use Rock Smash.
More like near the end of Chargestone Cave in my experience, which is just barely after the 5th.
You also need to keep in mind that I picked 32 largely because is was shortly after Brick Break becomes available (it's also the point where several Pokemon evolve, which gives a better comparison point). If you want me to compile a list of Pokemon who outdamage his 60 Power STABs as well, I'd be happy to.
Considering this is a game where "strictly better" doesn't exist (for the most part), most Pokemon will have something "significantly better" than another. It's just not saying much.
Darumaka gets his STABs much earlier then Sawk. And let's face it, if there were an 80% accurate instant-KO move with 15 PP, it would be one of the best moves in the game. I will concede that Darumaka's advantage over Sawk (stronger attacks at the cost of accuracy) is much less worthwhile from 29-35, but that's a far cry from being outclassed for 14 levels.
If you're turned off by Tail Slap's accuracy, his Return outdamages Brick Break, too.
Even if we only look at 32 and not 33-48, Excadrill has Hone Claws and Rock Slide, which means that he has better setup and coverage than Sawk will. The only area that Sawk has any advantage is his Fighting STAB, which only matters for Dark and Normal Pokemon (Dark isn't a huge advantage either considering that Excadrill gets X-Scissor a couple minutes later when you leave Chargestone Cave).
Who both have about as much survivability as Sturdy Sawk for most purposes and have offensive abilities that make them extremely powerful when activated.
Also, 85 Speed isn't really all that amazing, so you'll still be outsped by a fair amount of stuff.
They should at least be really close if you caught them early. They also don't need maxed happiness to outdamage Sawk - Stoutland needs 235, Unfezant needs 224. Since people have claimed that evolving Leavanny before that point in the game is easy, I think assuming a strong Return isn't that unreasonable.
Against Hydreigon, sure. But that one attack that Sturdy guarantees is less helpful for many Pokemon who would 1-shot you (since it is usually better to just switch to something that isn't going to get 2-shot instead).
It also loses a lot of its usefulness in Winter months given how much of the midgame is covered in Hail.
Funny, I didn't realize that Fighting resisted Ice. My type chart must be outdated. You'll also be finding way more than just those two types before level 49.
This also applies to Fire, Bug, Ice, Rock, Flying, and, to a lesser extent, Grass and Water. Any type with great coverage against some of those really common types is going to be great. Sure, Fighting might be best for Normals, but it's not like those Watchogs running around are anything more than an annoyance.
Except that he wouldn't be the best in-game fighting type until 49. Emboar's Hammer Arm, Conkeldurr's Brick Break, and Scraggy/Scrafty's Hi Jump Kick all hit harder, while Cobalion is available at the same time with a similar damage output but with much higher speed and survivability.
He might make High Tier because of his fairly unique use against Ghetsis, but I honestly don't think he would.
When many, many Pokemon have access to stuff like Return, Fly, Surf, Thunderbolt, Dig, etc., it's underwhelming. Brick Break from Sawk is surpassed in power by anything with 105 Base Attack and a 90 Power STAB. This only gets worse when EV's and IV's are considered, since those will favor the Pokemon with the better move, not the one with higher Attack.
Wait, Lenora's a challenge? That's news to me. I guess I was just lucky when I curbstomped her. While yes, Sawk is available first (ignoring Drilbur who basically just warms the bench until Dig is available), he's not that much earlier and he comes at a point where he's just overkill.
Technician Wing Attack is available very early and is noticeably more powerful than Brick Break, the Swords Dance TM is much more accessible in HGSS, and Scyther easily outspeeds Sawk (and, more importantly, basically everything you'll find in HGSS - something Sawk can't boast).
Scyther is simply a much more amazing Pokemon, so if he made Uber Tier in HGSS it's because he's worth the hassle at every single point in the game as soon as he becomes available.
No, I'm portraying having to hunt for a specific ability as a disadvantage, while the other three are amazing without any hunting.
The difference between Dig Excadrill and Brick Break Sawk is proportionally larger than the difference between CC Sawk and Earthquake Excadrill, which is proportionally larger than the difference between Double Kick Sawk and Dig Drilbur.
Catching and powerleveling it immediately before the point where he's most useful doesn't help his case much.
in white sawk is kind of a terrible idea. timburr does amazingly well and you don't have to spend hours looking for a sturdy sawk. it took me an hour to find one and it had inner focus. in that time i had already run into at least 15 timburrs and could have already beaten the gym and been through pinwheel forest. as far as versitality conkeldurr is much better. and having him before the 3rd gym isn't hard but makes the game easy as pie.
Just finish the game, again, on white and heres what i think bout the Pokes i tested.
Dweble: Oh my god this little hermit crab is awesome. It has two decent STABS when you get it, and you catch it right before the electric gym, which Dweble solo'd for me. Just use Stealth Rock and watch Elesa's Emolga's commit suicide, while you also hit them with Smack Down/Rock Tomb. Dig Should take care of Zebstrika no problem. Dweble also rapes the Flying, Ice, and Dragon gyms (thats three in a row). Against the E-4 Crustle just pwned. Against Caitlin, set up Shell Smash, survive Reunciles (or whatever it's called) Psychic, due to Sturdy, then outpace and OHKO everything. Against Shauntal, Set up Shell Smash, get burned by confarigus, eat your Rawst Berry, rape everything with Shadow Claw and Rock Slide. Against Grimsly, set up Shell Smash, and rape. Against Marshal, don't you dare use Crustle against him. Against N, set up Shell Smash against Reshirma/ Zekrom, and then rape. Against Ghetsis i got in two Shell Smash against his confarigus, then OHKO'D it with Shadow Claw. After that i killed 3 more of his Pokemon (including Hydreigon), leaving him with only 2 Pokes left. The only reason i didn't sweep him with Crustle is cuz of Toxic killing me. How can something that owns boss battles so easily be anything but High Tier.
Sawsbuck: This guy is my fav gen 5 poke. It got's a cool name, cool looks, and cool stats. It pretty much sucks as a Dearling, but once it evolves it destroys with its 100 base attack stat, STAB Take Down, and Horn Leech, and awesome type coverage. It felt like this guy was hitting 85% of the game for Super Effective damage with Megahorn, Jump Kick, and Horn Leech. Sawsbuck destroyed in random trainer battles, but wasnt't too good in boss battles with Crustle hogging up the spotlight. Sawsbuck and Crustle were just awesome together. Crustle destroying boss battles, Sawsbuck destroying random trainers. Upper Mid.
Sigilyph: Why the hell is is this in high? Maybe mine just sucked really bad, cuz this thing was a dissapointment for me. Psybeam and Air Cutter failed to OHKO anything, unless it was hit for Super Effective damage, and when it finally got Air Cutter, that didnt even help much. Sigilyph ended up just being death fodder for me. Mid
Swanna Swanna, not a bad Poke at all. Surf and Fly 2hko almost everything, and Feather Dance + Roost puts Physical Attackers in such a pain. I don't got anything else to say on this one. Mid
Ferroseed: Ferroseed, it evolves too late to be as good as it could've, and it pretty much sucks before evolution. Once it evolves, it gets to destroy stuff with Power Whip, and Gyro Ball. Mid
Discuss!!!!!!!!!!
Dweble: Oh my god this little hermit crab is awesome. It has two decent STABS when you get it, and you catch it right before the electric gym, which Dweble solo'd for me. Just use Stealth Rock and watch Elesa's Emolga's commit suicide, while you also hit them with Smack Down/Rock Tomb. Dig Should take care of Zebstrika no problem. Dweble also rapes the Flying, Ice, and Dragon gyms (thats three in a row). Against the E-4 Crustle just pwned. Against Caitlin, set up Shell Smash, survive Reunciles (or whatever it's called) Psychic, due to Sturdy, then outpace and OHKO everything. Against Shauntal, Set up Shell Smash, get burned by confarigus, eat your Rawst Berry, rape everything with Shadow Claw and Rock Slide. Against Grimsly, set up Shell Smash, and rape. Against Marshal, don't you dare use Crustle against him. Against N, set up Shell Smash against Reshirma/ Zekrom, and then rape. Against Ghetsis i got in two Shell Smash against his confarigus, then OHKO'D it with Shadow Claw. After that i killed 3 more of his Pokemon (including Hydreigon), leaving him with only 2 Pokes left. The only reason i didn't sweep him with Crustle is cuz of Toxic killing me. How can something that owns boss battles so easily be anything but High Tier.
Sawsbuck: This guy is my fav gen 5 poke. It got's a cool name, cool looks, and cool stats. It pretty much sucks as a Dearling, but once it evolves it destroys with its 100 base attack stat, STAB Take Down, and Horn Leech, and awesome type coverage. It felt like this guy was hitting 85% of the game for Super Effective damage with Megahorn, Jump Kick, and Horn Leech. Sawsbuck destroyed in random trainer battles, but wasnt't too good in boss battles with Crustle hogging up the spotlight. Sawsbuck and Crustle were just awesome together. Crustle destroying boss battles, Sawsbuck destroying random trainers. Upper Mid.
Sigilyph: Why the hell is is this in high? Maybe mine just sucked really bad, cuz this thing was a dissapointment for me. Psybeam and Air Cutter failed to OHKO anything, unless it was hit for Super Effective damage, and when it finally got Air Cutter, that didnt even help much. Sigilyph ended up just being death fodder for me. Mid
Swanna Swanna, not a bad Poke at all. Surf and Fly 2hko almost everything, and Feather Dance + Roost puts Physical Attackers in such a pain. I don't got anything else to say on this one. Mid
Ferroseed: Ferroseed, it evolves too late to be as good as it could've, and it pretty much sucks before evolution. Once it evolves, it gets to destroy stuff with Power Whip, and Gyro Ball. Mid
Discuss!!!!!!!!!!
Well Psybeam and Aircutter are weak as hell so that'd explain a lot.
Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Sigilyph not deserving high tier. It's good, even great, but it's not high tier. Neither Flying or Psychic are great STABs in this game, and Aircutter and Psybeam are it's only Special STAB options for quite a while. Once it gets Air Slash and Psychic, it is much more potent, but they (especially Psychic) come a bit too late. It's not even a great Pokemon against Marshal because all of his Pokemon carry a Rock attack that can OHKO Sigi. I would say Mid, but if we do further stratify the tiers, it should be High-mid.
@ Sajak: my point exactly. couldn't have said it beter myself.
You're kinda fixated on Sawk not being as good as Excadrill or Darumakka, so much that you portray his advantages as disadvantages. There's not much point in continuing this, so I'm just going to raise some more general points:
1) "Coverage" is a minor factor when tiering in BW. For instance, Emboar can learn Grass Knot and Wild Charge. So what? Nobody in their right mind would make him face off against Water-, Ground-, or Flying- types for obvious reasons. The game itself encourages the player to create a team of 6 pokes, meaning that more often than not, you'll be able to matchup well against any given opponent at any given time. In short, it's fairly unimportant whether a pokemon has no access to any other moves but its STAB attacks or can learn half the game's TMs, simply due to the fact that you'll only pin it against stuff it can hit effectively with its STAB.
2)For the very same reasons as above, "power" is yet another overrated concept in BW. Darumakka is undoubtely more powerful than Pansear, but both do just as well against Leavanny - and you won't make them face off against stuff they don't have a significant advantage over.
3)Speed is far and beyond THE most important stat for an efficient playthrough. Both Conkeldurr and Sawk do just as well against Sandile, amirite? Nope. Nearly all Sandiles in-game have Swagger and Sand-attack, which might make Conkelldurr actually lose such an advantageous matchup. Sawk just outspeeds and KOs.
4)One of the most determining factors in any game is how well does the subject fare against boss battles, especially the major ones. Fighting-types strike 11 pokes supereffectively in the E4. Fire only 3.
Based on my experiences with it and nearly all other pokes in this game, Sawk deserves to be placed above high tier. White players rating Sawk's efficiency is like Black players rating Solosis's.
1) "Coverage" is a minor factor when tiering in BW. For instance, Emboar can learn Grass Knot and Wild Charge. So what? Nobody in their right mind would make him face off against Water-, Ground-, or Flying- types for obvious reasons. The game itself encourages the player to create a team of 6 pokes, meaning that more often than not, you'll be able to matchup well against any given opponent at any given time. In short, it's fairly unimportant whether a pokemon has no access to any other moves but its STAB attacks or can learn half the game's TMs, simply due to the fact that you'll only pin it against stuff it can hit effectively with its STAB.
2)For the very same reasons as above, "power" is yet another overrated concept in BW. Darumakka is undoubtely more powerful than Pansear, but both do just as well against Leavanny - and you won't make them face off against stuff they don't have a significant advantage over.
3)Speed is far and beyond THE most important stat for an efficient playthrough. Both Conkeldurr and Sawk do just as well against Sandile, amirite? Nope. Nearly all Sandiles in-game have Swagger and Sand-attack, which might make Conkelldurr actually lose such an advantageous matchup. Sawk just outspeeds and KOs.
4)One of the most determining factors in any game is how well does the subject fare against boss battles, especially the major ones. Fighting-types strike 11 pokes supereffectively in the E4. Fire only 3.
Based on my experiences with it and nearly all other pokes in this game, Sawk deserves to be placed above high tier. White players rating Sawk's efficiency is like Black players rating Solosis's.
your 3rd point is a little off. krookadile outspeeds sawk easily and he is faster than conk but he still isn't very fast. the only reason i would think sawk doesn't deserve super uber status is because its a major pain in the ass to get a sturdy one in white. and it does need to take in to account both versions and availability. thats why i see conk as being slightly better than sawk. sawk is great but not uber imo.
Wild Pokemon (and trainer Pokemon) do not have EVs. Even if you only go through fighting random Pokemon, Sawk will make up for the Speed deficit with EVs as well as level advantages.
just about any pokemon can be awesome if your overleveled and pseudo ev trained.
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