Proposal Include Metronome (the move) under Evasion Moves Clause and OHKO Clause and Sleep Moves Clause

[Demon Queen]

See title. Metronome (the move) calls another move for use at random. This includes several moves otherwise banned by clauses. Let's look at the odds for SV OU:

Metronome can call Acupressure, Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, Sheer Cold, Double Team, Minimize, Hypnosis, Sing, Sleep Powder, Spore, Yawn, Last Respects, and Baton Pass (Dark Void fails for non-Darkrai Pokemon).
This is a 14/577 (total number of Metronome moves) = 2.426% chance to call a banned move on every use of Metronome.

Inky didn't mention Shed Tail, which bumps this chance to call a banned move up to 15/577 = 2.599% Metronome cannot call Shed Tail, disregard

Acupressure has a 14% chance to call an evasion boost. Bright powder gives a 10% evasion chance. The chance for Metronome to call a banned move is even lower, but the simple fact is that it's very possible for Metronome to bypass these established clauses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2483958070-1pm4v15dllbgkm2qcg2r1dfhrn1q9jwpw
Is turn 6 of this battle something we should even be entertaining? I don't see any good reason why we should.

 

[Karxrida]

Acupressure has a 14% chance to call an evasion boost. Bright powder gives a 10% evasion chance. The chance for Metronome to call a banned move is even lower, but the simple fact is that it's very possible for Metronome to bypass these established clauses.

Metronome can also literally blow up in your face (higher chance to self-KO than to call an OHKO move) and there are many other context specific interactions that are actively detrimental to the user (e.g. summoning Electric Terrain when the opponent has Iron Valiant). This isn't even getting into how the move can do nothing either because you called something the target is immune to, the move you called missed, it was functionally useless because it was weak like Tackle or Taunt on an offensive mon, or it was just the literally useless Splash.

Something else to consider is that other RNG moves give some degree of leeway to fish for them via Substitute spam or whatever. Even if Acupressure doesn't call evasion it can call Speed or a relevant defensive stat to make it more likely to survive the next turn to roll the dice again. Metronome is so random and potentially detrimental that it is basically impossible to tilt the luck in your favor.

The luck it introduces is statically irrelevant and banning it just makes us look bad on top of it.

 

[Tio Chico]

Although there is no competitive use in tournaments (nobody will risk a less than 3% chance to try gain an advantage) there is no reason not to make the game better by removing an element that violates clauses.

Although not broken, it is unhealthy and uncompetitive.

 

[Kate]

If no one uses it because the chance to actually do anything is irrelevant, why ban it lol

 

[shnowshner]

The biggest point against Metronome's ban would be that there's no implicit strategy to build around with. Every other banned element is banned because you can tailor a team to take advantage of its effect; there is no way to correctly use a move like Metronome because there's no way to predict its effect long-term. Acupressure is random as well but in a much more controlled and practical way; even if evasion isnt boosted, another useful stat might be. The stall team from the original post really benefits from Metronome only because its a very linear teamstyle that realistically needs 5 mons to work (see #1 OU Slaking Stall) and it makes people upset when they see it. Having a move you lack agency over on a style that generally wants to minimize risk seems bad in the long run.

Calling a banned move doesn't equal using it successfully btw, have to work rn but I'd like to see the odds adjusted for how often you can expect the given move to actually do something.

All said if you DID ban it idt we'd lose anything, it's only a matter of time until people take this too personally and Metronome spams makes ladders even less bearable.

 

[Dorron]

When did the game stop being fun? There's no shot we are actually banning Metronome now. If my opponent brings Metronome, does something and I end up losing because of that I'll make fun of it with my friends after fifteen minutes. Also no serious player ever considered running Metronome.

 

[Drifting]

Although there is no competitive use in tournaments (nobody will risk a less than 3% chance to try gain an advantage) there is no reason not to make the game better by removing an element that violates clauses.

Although not broken, it is unhealthy and uncompetitive.

In SS LC some players (read: Acehunter) would use Metronome Abra for decent odds to kill low HP Pawniard while bypassing Sucker Punch

Generally speaking I disagree with the philosophy behind this thread. RNG is not inherently uncompetitive. On the contrary, evaluating and managing odds is one of the most integral skills in Pokemon. We don't ban Evasion and OHKO moves because they are RNG, they're banned because they're overpowered mechanics that just so happen to be RNG dependent.

People have some strange idea that luck is just some malignant, divine intervention that just "happens", when really RNG is just a reward system for players who create the most opportunities to roll the dice by superior play and positioning. You create your own luck. If we banned stuff for being RNG we'd ban Glare, but we don't because we know that wasting a turn of momentum now to get a recurring chance at a future reward is a valid long-term strategy. Same for Quick Claw, don't get me wrong that item pisses me off but the opportunity cost of having a useless item 90% of the time and trying to maximise the amount of times you can attempt a proc is also an intentional choice and a valid strategy to go for. Metronome to me is the same thing, just much less viable.

 

[Karxrida]

All said if you DID ban it idt we'd lose anything, it's only a matter of time until people take this too personally and Metronome spams makes ladders even less bearable.

I don't think this would change much of anything. The people who'd take offense are most likely your little Timmys and casual joes who are content to sit at the bottom of the ladder, where you already find weird off-meta bullshit. If anyone actually competent partakes in this all they do risk a decent ladder placement and likely end up back down in low ladder anyway.

 

[Aberforth]

Technically Metronome violates the clauses you mentioned but honestly, if someone clicked metronome into me and got an OHKO move to hit, I agree with Dorron, I'd just find it funny. I dont think banning Metronome benefits us as a community in any measurable way, and the argument that "We lose nothing by banning it" is one we directly addressed when updating the tiering policy earlier this generation:

III.) The onus of providing justification is on the side of changing the status quo.

• The status quo can be changed in certain cases, such as new game releases.
• If a proposal is made to ban or unban a Pokemon, ability, item, or move, the side suggesting this must demonstrate why this is necessary and how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, as well as provide evidence for both.
• The argument that removing an element of play does not have a downside is not enough; we need good reasons to take action, not reasons not to do so.

Unless there is a serious argument for how and why metronome is making the ladder worse for a lot of people, this isnt something we're going to do.

 

[Demon Queen]

Generally speaking I disagree with the philosophy behind this thread. RNG is not inherently uncompetitive. On the contrary, evaluating and managing odds is one of the most integral skills in Pokemon. We don't ban Evasion and OHKO moves because they are RNG, they're banned because they're overpowered mechanics that just so happen to be RNG dependent.

If OHKO moves had 100% accuracy they'd be banned, sure. They currently have 30% accuracy and they're banned. If they had 20% accuracy would they still be banned? 10%? 5%?
This isn't even necessarily true. Inaccurate sleep moves like Hypnosis were also banned partially because of their RNG, beyond the variability of sleep turns, such that trying to respond to their inaccuracy could force players into uncompetitive scenarios.

Technically Metronome violates the clauses you mentioned
(...)
Unless there is a serious argument for how and why metronome is making the ladder worse for a lot of people, this isnt something we're going to do.

So what more is there to discuss? Was Malamar or Drapion or whoever making the ladder so much worse for so many people that we needed to ban Acupressure across all gens as well? Was Bright Powder or King's Rock?