Metagame Inheritance

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I think I'll be voting no ban for Murkrow, because it's not inherently broken. I used mostly stall and semistall teams to get reqs, and there are plenty of stallbreakers that don't rely on stat boosts (such as Kecleon-Azelf, Mawile-Tapu Koko, and other more niche breakers like Octillery-Heatran and Sun-boosted Victini inheritors). Additionally, I don't believe that the banning of Murkrow will impact stall as people think, because common Mold Breaker abusers such as Haxorus-Garchomp and Rampardos-Terrakion are walled by Celesteela and Buzzwole, respectively, which do not require Prankster to check setup. A better way to allow more playstyles to function effectively is to allow mons to inherit from Megas and Ubers (as I've mentioned before), which gives BO and offense more sets to break stall, such as Drizzle + Water Spout, Teravolt + Hone Claws, and Fairy/Dark Aura.

Additionally, I'd like to add some noms.
Marowak (Kecleon) UR -> B+ or A-
The Kanto version has a good niche over Alola in its resistance to Stealth Rock and immunity to Electric, though Alola has more resistances.

Toxapex B -> B+, move Emolga to first
Toxapex is amazing at checking mixed attackers like Kecleon-Azelf, Victini inheritors, and Tapu Koko, though it is pretty passive with a lackluster attacking movepool.

Chandelure B- -> A-
Salazzle B -> A-
I have no idea why these are so low. Drought Choice Specs Eruptions hit like trucks and also help setup for Victini inheritors to smash through opposing stall, while Scarf is a nice special revenge killer on Chandelure that doesn't lose to Alolan Muk (although it needs full health).

Tyranitar-Mega C -> C+ or B-, add Mew
With Drought abusers on the rise, Tyranitar-Mega is a really nice special wall that beats them both reliably. Mew gives it Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, and U-Turn.

Doublade C+ -> B- or B, move Swoobat up
Doublade checks things like Terrakion, Tapu Koko, and Archeops super nicely, which otherwise threaten stall teams. Its weakness to Knock Off and competition with Sableye-Mega hurts it, though.

Cobalion (Hawlucha) UR -> B-
Cobalion @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
- Roost
I faced this a few times during my reqs laddering, and goddamn is it annoying. Doesn't care about Masquerain Buzzwole at all, doesn't care about Toxic, doesn't care about Knock Off, really nice offensive typing. Give it cleric support and it gives stall hell.
 
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ban Murkrow
I ABSOLUTELY agree with the opinion of drampa's grandpa.
I think what we considered as "broken" is not just the set of Murkrow-whatever but the whole playstyle of stall. So even through banning Murkrow as a donator seemingly effects small but it at least gives us a chance
to avoid got double counters of any of your mons, and it also allow some specific sets not to be walled easily like taunt nasty spot Charot-Gardevoir.
I used my rain team to climb the ladder. I only
met full stall once and won by opponent's mistake. I luckily got this score and I believe the meta will be better after that change.
There is my team:
Buzzwole @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Regenerator
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 180 Def
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Defog

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Surf
- Knock Off

Xurkitree @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Rock Polish

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Toxic

Goodra @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Defog

excuse my poor English:)
 
this omotm has been one of my favorites ever
this is the full team i am using and it just dominates people with 1300+ rating
if flareon sets up trick room it takes out 4 pokemon pretty much everytime

Exeggutor-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Triage
EVs: 88 Def / 252 SpA / 168 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Draining Kiss
- Petal Dance
- Trick

Ninjask @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Protean
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Shadow Sneak
- Drain Punch

Flareon @ Metronome
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- V-create
- Trick Room
- Bolt Strike
- Will-O-Wisp

Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Defog

Kyurem @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard
- Explosion

exeggutor is there to beat e-speed users and to trick chansey into specs
ninjask to spam u-turn or take on magearna or muk-alola
marowak to spam fake-out and shadow sneak
nothing can take a hit from flareon, they get ohko or lose 50% if they are suicune
gale wing gyrados is just broken, you don't switch it out, you just spam brave bird on everything
kyurem is probably the best anti-lead in this meta, scarf archeops beat it though
 
Flareon @ Metronome
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- V-create
- Trick Room
- Bolt Strike
- Will-O-Wisp

nothing can take a hit from flareon, they get ohko or lose 50% if they are suicune
Swampert does a pretty good job at taking more than one hit from Flareon... Even Quagsire can take a hit...
 
Murkrow (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Feather Dance
- Roost
- Haze
- Night Shade

I really don't play stall, nor do I want to, but I feel like this set has the potential to make Chansey even harder to kill. Typically, my answer to Chansey (with Toxic over FD) has been in the form of an unexpected physical move leaving Chansey weak/without eviolite, but with Feather Dance, I feel like it can negate a few of its counters that rely on brute force.

But hey what do I know
 
I'm trying this set:

Greninja
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Acrobatics

And whenever I try to add a bug or dark gem, it says the set is illegal. Why?
 
I'm trying this set:

Greninja
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Acrobatics

And whenever I try to add a bug or dark gem, it says the set is illegal. Why?
All gems except the Normal Gem are unreleased in Gen 7.
 
Murkrow (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Feather Dance
- Roost
- Haze
- Night Shade

I really don't play stall, nor do I want to, but I feel like this set has the potential to make Chansey even harder to kill. Typically, my answer to Chansey (with Toxic over FD) has been in the form of an unexpected physical move leaving Chansey weak/without eviolite, but with Feather Dance, I feel like it can negate a few of its counters that rely on brute force.

But hey what do I know
Diancie-Mega has base 160 mixed attacking stats and Magic Bounce, negating Feather Dance. Donphan gives her Head Smash, Play Rough, Earthquake, and Knock Off. Be careful with Head Smash, Diancie has very low HP, but don't be afraid to drop Diancie if it means opening a sweep.
 
Wait, is Murkrow banned from inheriting for the suspect? Usually that's how suspects go: temporarily ban/unban something, and see if the meta benefits.
 
Wait, is Murkrow banned from inheriting for the suspect? Usually that's how suspects go: temporarily ban/unban something, and see if the meta benefits.
No Murkrow is not banned on the ladder, nor is that how suspects usually go at all. No suspect in the past 6 months has banned the Pokemon or threat on the ladder. The point of a suspect test is to test whether the threat is broken or not, not whether the metagame will benefit from it being gone, as that has no correlation to whether or not the threat is broken.
 
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claiming Imsak Ngetroll

voting ban murkrow as a donor, though what i didn't see the problem with murkrow itself, but Prankster Haze. tho after playing some games, i see Prankster itself is problematic. i hope this softens stall a bit .

i share this Loppuny that didn't have Lucario as a donor
from

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed / Return
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Endeavor

Sub Endeavor. luring stall pokemon to have weakened by endeavor is so good.
 
Got my reqs, I'll be voting ban because I feel like it could give a chance to setup sweepers with mold breaker to break stall while not get stopped by prankster haze, I'm not sure if it's really broken or not but banning this mon will probably make the metagame healthier, giving teams more stallbreaking options and it's not like banning it will be a problem for anybody.

https://pokepast.es/461498677e389214

Here is the team I used, pretty fun team to use, you just have to click 11 turns to win against offense, and against bulkier teams it's trickier but Ampharos generally does an amazing job and Marowak has 0 switch-ins. I'm thinking about replacing u-turn for Sleep Talk on Marowak, as I'm often fucked up by sleep.
 
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Pigeons

pidge pidge
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
AG Circuit Champion
Just an update about the Murkrow suspect:

We haven't gotten as many votes as we'd hoped, so Funbot and I have decided to extend the suspect deadline until December 19th. In addition, we have lowered the required GXE to 77 to hopefully make reqs easier to obtain, I've updated the original post accordingly as well. Thanks to everyone who has voted so far, good luck to everyone else!
 
Screen Shot 2018-12-17 at 12.05.00 AM.png
Required GXE lowered to 77? Well why didn't you say so?

Would've made this post earlier, since I was one battle away from 79, but that Pinsir's close combat HAD to crit me. Yes I'm still salty about it. You know who you are.

Anyway, I'll be voting ban on Murkrow as a donor. Murkrow itself isn't inherently broken, prankster haze is too good, stall needs to be softened somehow, yadda yadda yadda. While I'm not looking forward to the increase in Sableye:Chansey a Murkrow ban would bring forth (two words: metal burst), at least prankster haze will be gone, even if priority recovery remains.

Nobody asked for it, but it's mon time!

giphy.gif

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Atk / 212 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Defog/Aqua Tail
- Roar/Dragon Tail/Aqua Tail

Mawile:Koko got you down? Tired of v-create spam from AlolaWak or MegaZardX (without grass knot)? Here's your switchin that stops both - take that, Hippowdon! 48 Atk EVs guarantees the OHKO on Koko with eq, while the rest goes into defense for obvious reasons. One of the few (non-unaware, too!) mons that can switch in vs a swords dancing Koko and live to tell the tale. Aqua tail is usable if you already have hazard removal, and dragon tail vs roar is the usual debate over chip damage vs the ability to phaze fairies and bypass subs. I don't usually enjoy posting bulkmons, but this Pert makes a nice glue mon, easily insertible into any defensive core, for a more balanced team struggling with these ultra-common offensive threats. Enjoy!
 
wait mawille:koko is s rank? my above team makes fun of mawille:koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Cobalion @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
- Return

now let's talk about this cobalion
after a belly drum it outspeeds basically everything and proceeds to sweep
any thoughts?
 
wait mawille:koko is s rank? my above team makes fun of mawille:koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Cobalion @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Play Rough
- Return

now let's talk about this cobalion
after a belly drum it outspeeds basically everything and proceeds to sweep
any thoughts?
Given how stall-orientated this meta is, unburden is generally not that useful. Belly drum doesn't help much against stall, because popular unaware inheritors like Celesteela and Suicune eat drain punch for days. Cool set though, I'm sure it'd be good if unaware wasn't so problematic.
 
I'm starting to think that Unburden and the other speed-doubling Abilities are the culprit for stall seeming to be too good. Offense can employ effective breakers like Mega Diancie and Tapu Koko that can reliably beat defensive cores, but it turns the metagame into a weird game of RPS: Full stall basically beats speed spam every time, which beats more traditional offense, which when well-built and played can break Inheritance defensive cores. Balance doesn't exist in the metagame at the moment. Offense has to pick between combating opposing offense that gave up the stall fight or being able to beat Inheritance's defensive cores.

I don't have a ton of experience this month, but that's how four or so days have left me feeling.

IMPORTANT EDIT: I know that Offense has ways to do it (Funbot's HO, Agility Keldeo), but it's felt super knife-edgey basically since the first game.

Alternatively, unban Mega Gyarados since Shell Smash is banned. Unless BellyJet is that bad. I can see BellyJet being that bad.
 
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Ban Murkrow
While laddering for reqs and just casually playing before, I have both used and experienced stall. I am still unsure if Murkrow is inherently broken as a donor, but I think that it currently makes stall nearly unbeatable. Banning Murkrow will not make stall unviable in any way, but it will also give offense teams more of a chance to reliably beat stall. I have seen concerns that setup will be too strong if Murkrow is banned, but with Unaware still available I doubt that it will be too much of a problem. Whereas playing stall normally feels satisfying, using a Murkrow donor feels like just pressing buttons to completely shut down your opponent. I laddered with Stall so I feel can confidently say that banning Murkrow will make Inheritance a more fun and balanced meta while still leaving stall intact.

Sorry for bad formatting, on mobile.
 

Attachments

ban Murkrow
I used my rain team to climb the ladder. I only
met full stall once and won by opponent's mistake. I luckily got this score and I believe the meta will be better after that change.
There is my team:
Buzzwole @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Regenerator
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 180 Def
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Defog

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Surf
- Knock Off

Xurkitree @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Rock Polish

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Toxic

Goodra @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Defog

excuse my poor English:)
I've been using this team and it's pretty fun. I made a change to the Swampert set, here it is:

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Simple
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Stomping Tantrum

Pretty self explanatory set. I used a similar set for Gyarados, and found that it's even better on rain-boosted Swampy-mega. Swords Dance when your opp. can't touch Swampy, then Mega Evolve in rain and proceed to win. Other options over Stomping Tantrum are Crunch/Superpower, but Bibarel's coverage isn't that great outside of those.

I also was considering changing the Keldeo set to use Earth Power over Sludge Bomb, but can't decide whether or not it's worth it. An interesting change could be inheriting from Carracosta, for its ability to get Earth Power and Ice Beam, with the latter being something Seismitoad doesn't get.
 

Pigeons

pidge pidge
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
AG Circuit Champion

Voting ban, Murkrow simply does too much in one package giving defensive Pokemon utility against setup and breakers alike. It contributes to stall being overcentralizing which has made the meta quite stale, hopefully this will start to set things in the right direction.

With that, the suspect has concluded! By a vote of 6-1, Murkrow is now banned as a donor in Inheritance!

Tagging The Immortal to implement. Thanks to everyone who participated!
 
Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Electrify
- Substitute
- Grass Knot
- Dragon Pulse

is cool!

lightningrod and electrify with a base 145 speed
ate-speeders and other espeeders and 150 base speed mons are the only concern for this thing
 
Gengar @ Life Orb (inheriting from Toxapex)
Ability : Merciless
EVs: 252 SpA/4 HP/252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Ice Beam
- Baneful Bunker
- Substitute

Really scary with TSpikes support in the team (reminder that ariados can donate both Sticky web and Tspikes). Venoshock plows through almost everything, and you can toxic stall with Bunker and Sub on mons you can't one shot to wear them down. Ice Beam for coverage, surf is good too.
This can be useful against stall, given that not much can take a crit 130 stabbed move and that sub allows you to get past some of the more annoying mons like chansey.

Charizard @ Charizardite-X (inheriting from Victini)
Ability : Victory Star -> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Att/4HP/252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-V-Create
-Bolt Strike
-U-Turn
-Quick Attack/Substitute

This one doesn't really need commenting. Tough Claws V-Create is scary.
 
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I think i just discovered a monster celesteela set inherited from dunsparce.
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash

edit: from testing maybe add 28 speed evs to outspeed paralysed base 100 speed

edit 2: after playing quite abit. i realise this set is trash. its no different from sub, calm mind togekiss in OU. celesteela speed sucks.
i have however come up with a pretty strong rain team that seems to be able to manage stall. maybe im not high up enough on the ladder to play full oppressive stall teams
 
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