Metagame Inheritance

I was wondering about a few Guts users and sidetracked onto if Quick Feet could be an interesting option for a few random pokes. Obviously most of its users would be special attackers unless toxic poisoning on your physical mon seems cool. I have almost never seen duscussion about the usefulness of the ability, (probably because of Unburden) but how good are the movepools in question? Well:

This one offers:
  • Hyper Voice
  • Focus Blast
  • Sludge Bomb
  • Shadow Ball
  • Flamethrower/Fire Blast
  • Thunderbolt
  • Dazzling Gleam
Not exactly the best, but could possibly be made use of (Though the only SpAttack boosting is work up)


Magearna @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Work Up

This is meant to give an idea of such a set, not be a real viable set.


Xurkitree @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Work Up

This one could also make use of the ability given it's average speed and high attacking stat


Gengar @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Work Up

That kind of speed is probably overkill, but worth a thought.

Granbull also has a few other options like Super Fang, Taunt, and Thunder Wave, so that could be cool too.


This one offers:
  • Hyper Voice
  • Shadow Ball
  • Surf
  • Grass Knot
  • Thunderbolt
  • Ice Beam
Worse, but has its merits like Ice Beam being preset. It also has Work Up as the only SpAttack boosting, but the really interesting thing is that this has access to Trick, meaning an inheritor could give the Flame Orb to a random mon once they're done with it.


Kyurem @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Switcheroo

Probably the most bizarre idea here and is likely unviable, but something.


Xurkitree @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Work Up

Xurk can also make use of this, trading stronger fire coverage for stronger ice coverage.

The rest start to loose notability, thanks to again, physical attackers wanting to use Quick Feet have to poison themselves to not get an attack reduction. Jolteon offers Signal Beam with the usual Shadow Ball + Thunderbolt and thats it. Shroomish has a tiny movepool of attacks, Usaring has two notable special moves (Hyper Voice and Focus Blast) and is better off passing Guts to something. Mightyena has a complete garbage movepool, and that's all of the Quick Feet givers basically. Unburden and weather abilities may still be better, but Quick Feet existed, so I wondered if it could be used.

But speaking of possible Guts users: (that aren't already used)

Haxorus @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Using Larvitar as a donnor, Haxorus gets DD with a strong STAB to use it with. Earthquake and Superpower cover the bulky pokes throught the tier.


Tapu Bulu @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Fire Punch

Usaring has the cool ability to pass both STABS to Bulu for it to break. The coverage options are to hit certain walls, and the Speed EVs to creep Suicune and Fini. Usaring also learns Swords Dance, which could have room depending on situations.

It was a thought. Might consider adding more.

EDIT:
1. I have realized that Quick Feet has the advantage of not being a one time use unlike Unburden.

2. After a bit of annoyance of people running priority-immune on slower Pokemon and wanting to see it on something fast;

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn

(it should be fairly obvious who the donor is, it it's not, it's Tsareena)
It misses Electric STAB, but in return, grants you a fast Pokemon who can't be hit with a priority move

Another EDIT: I realize Chandelure could possibly* use Quick Feet too, but would be very prone to dying: (also inheriting from Granbull)


Chandelure @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

Hope you can keep the rocks away...
 
Last edited:
Well, weather and Unburden are still completely choking off the metagame. I was kinda hoping this wouldn't happen because nothing has changed since last December, but here we are. Half the OM Room on Showdown is asking how to deal with stall because they prepped for speed and the other half is asking how to deal with HO because they prepped for stall.

I would really really really really really like the exact same thing that happens literally every month to not happen to one of the best metagames Smogon has ever produced: We sit on our thumbs for two weeks while the ladder slowly dies because people get tired of dealing with really busted shit, and then suspect tests are worthless because only a tiny handful of players can grind out reqs.

EDIT: So this post isn't just me bitching, here's Mega Aerodactyl's Staraptor set, which should be added to the VR along with a rise to at least B. There are vanishingly few Pokemon that comfortably deal with Brave Bird and Close Combat.

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Pursuit
- U-turn
 
Last edited:
while I do not find the latter to be overbearing in the slightest thanks to many Unaware mons stopping Unburden sweepers in their tracks,
Which is exactly why it’s a problem. Unburden basically makes you use defensive teams if you want to stop it with any consistency, as offense can’t afford to deal with the momentum drain and the inability to employ another breaker/sweeper that comes with being forced to run Unaware and similar tech.
 
Last edited:
Which is exactly why it’s a problem. Unburden basically makes you use defensive teams if you want to stop it with any consistency, as offense can’t afford to deal with the momentum drain and the inability to employ another breaker/sweeper that comes with being forced to run Unaware and similar tech.
There are many more ways to beat Unburden than listed here. Priority attacks will take care of the Sceptile inheritors such as Landorus-Therian and Tapu Bulu (note: pterrain does not block priority if the target isn't grounded), especially versus BellyBurden users and specific targets evading this are easily beaten by splashable mons like offensive Celesteela / Magearna, Snorlax, Masquerain inheritors and utility revenge killers such as Regenerator Scarfers can take care of Seed / Sash users. Sableye inherits also cripple Unburden down, and these are quite easy to fit on bulky offense teams as Sableye's movepool is fairly expansive. Hyper Offense has broken Screens and is capable of offensive pressure enough to basically make any Unburden user get a kill at maximum, and as stated, anything bulkier can afford Unaware or specific answers to the best in the metagame.

Moving on to what I was here for:

Megacham: A -> S (+ Zygarde, Victini, - Scrafty

Megacham is insanely busted in the fact that it will basically kill whatever wall is in front of it that isn't a Mega Sableye or Doublade (it can evn get past that with Blaze Kick). Thanks to Extreme Speed, it can be tough for offensive teams to prepare for it, as even unboosted it will deal around 75% to the likes of Tapu Koko, and with a good hazard game from the likes of Garchomp / Greninja inherits, it isn't that hard to chip a target like that down into range. It isn't too hard to get in either - it can use its bulk to take attacks from defensive Celesteela, Terrakion, and force out the likes of bulky Normal types such as Snorlax. It is very difficult to beat this thing one on one and just accounting Lucario alone it is capable of netting two kills most games. Victini inherits are near completely unwallable (only beatable by Arcanine!Doublade), and Zygarde inherits take anything without a solid Grass type into the ground, as even revenge killing with the likes of Gengar isn't really possible, unless you're running Choice Scarf.

Magearna: A+ -> S (+ Sableye, Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu)
Also insanely broken mon with an infinite amount of cheese capability for hyper offense and stall alike. Sableye Magearna, whilst walled by Heatran and Muk-Alola, is capable of taking on a large portion of the metagame all at once, through its natural bulk and Prankster Will-o-wisp + Taunt. It's also naturally faster than other Prankster users on bulkier teams, and can Taunt them before recovery, which makes it very easy for it to stay around and annoy your entire team as you struggle to break it without a solid Fire type or offensive pressure. Magearna also has a vey good offensive matchup, being able to counterlead any lead without a Focus Sash. Not only this, but Magearna also has Comfey and Bellossom to outright irritate any team without Unaware, as they can easily run Hidden Power Ground for Fire types and relevant Golem-A inherits. It is nearly impossible to take this down if it has Magnet Pull support - and due to its insane splashability through the many donors it successfully inherits from, I believe that S rank is perfect for this monster.

Doublade: C+ -> A-
Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this thing was C+ rank of all things. This is the ultimate physical wall for the strong Fighting types in the metagame, and with Flygon it can take on most Ground types too. Utility options for these sorts of teams such as Defog and Will-o-wisp really help out against the main majority of physical attackers - Tapu Koko can't break without getting burned even if it does carry Knock Off as its last slot. This mon also carries a Magnet Pull immunity thanks to its Ghost typing, making it an excellent option if you require Celesteela for any of its other, more threatening roles. Very much worth as much as Venusaur etc.

Muk-Alola: A+ -> A
Not a very splashable mon at the moment seeing as the metagame is mainly physically oriented and Sheer Force donors are running Earth Power or have STAB for it. Whilst it does have pivoting, the set of resistances that would set it apart from TornSteela isn't enough to justify it on bulky offense most of the time (unless, of course, you wish to use Celesteela for another role). Muk-Alola also suffers badly from Mega Medicham being broken and other Ground types such as Garchomp being generally solid switchins for it on offensive teams, making its role less powerful as a whole. Quite powerful as a role compressor and is still useful for a lot of things, but seems like a misfit for A+ along titans like Snorlax and Terrakion.
 
yet another celesteela set. jolteon.


Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 232 Def / 28 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Edit: Suicune actually works too
 
Just wanted to put this mega lop set with brelooms moves
Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Technician
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Wake-Up Slap
- Frustration

Only problem matchup I've had is magic bounce on the spore.
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7inheritance-582237
abyssal bot needs a new team.
Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
- Extrasensory
- Dark Pulse

Roserade @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Dragon Pulse
- Glare

Electivire @ Life Orb
Ability: Static
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Volt Tackle
- Return
- Nuzzle

Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Pain Split

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fell Stinger
- Aqua Jet
- Roost
- Aerial Ace

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Swords Dance

EDIT: spelling mistake in abyssmal -> abyssal
 
There are many more ways to beat Unburden than listed here. Priority attacks will take care of the Sceptile inheritors such as Landorus-Therian and Tapu Bulu (note: pterrain does not block priority if the target isn't grounded), especially versus BellyBurden users and specific targets evading this are easily beaten by splashable mons like offensive Celesteela / Magearna, Snorlax, Masquerain inheritors and utility revenge killers such as Regenerator Scarfers can take care of Seed / Sash users. Sableye inherits also cripple Unburden down, and these are quite easy to fit on bulky offense teams as Sableye's movepool is fairly expansive. Hyper Offense has broken Screens and is capable of offensive pressure enough to basically make any Unburden user get a kill at maximum, and as stated, anything bulkier can afford Unaware or specific answers to the best in the metagame.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-923488498

Tell me more about how priority takes care of Unburden.

EDIT @ below: Give Venusaur its regular Abilities, not its Mega Abilities. That counts as trying to inherit from the Mega which is not allowed. Alternately, give Venusaur a different, more threatening moveset.
 
Last edited:
178753

This Venusaur-Mega set works normally in OU but this comes up when it's put on Inheritance. Is there something wrong with the set or combination? The moves and ability doesn't seem to break any clauses as far as I see it.
 
View attachment 178753
This Venusaur-Mega set works normally in OU but this comes up when it's put on Inheritance. Is there something wrong with the set or combination? The moves and ability doesn't seem to break any clauses as far as I see it.
Since u can't "inherit" from megas, u aren't allowed thick fat apparently. Run chlorophyll and it should work.
178760


Cough, u could run intimidate or levitate for a better pre-mega ability though.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-923488498

Tell me more about how priority takes care of Unburden.

EDIT @ below: Give Venusaur its regular Abilities, not its Mega Abilities. That counts as trying to inherit from the Mega which is not allowed. Alternately, give Venusaur a different, more threatening moveset.
Simple, Drampa should have gone into Swampert and not Celesteela. Assuming it was max Defense, from that range Drampa was capable of stalling out Synthesis, and tanking a Swords Dance boosted hit.

0 Atk Swampert Aqua Tail vs. +1 76 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 152-182 (44.9 - 53.8%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 330-388 (81.6 - 96%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Extreme Speed vs. +1 76 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 107-126 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO
Chance of hitting 8 Aqua Tails in a row, and missing one or hitting 9 in a row: 0.732
So yeah, I would say this is definitely in Drampa's favour.
Drampa could have also gone Swampert on Magearna to prevent Lando from setting up early.
If not the play, Drampa could have also gone Archeops to Brave Bird and burn Synthesis PP:
252 Atk Archeops Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 151-178 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Medicham put both of these into range - point is strong priority helps pressure Unburden users into tight spots where they find theirselves continually pressured to recover on weaker targets just to get out of the situation. A Marowak is easily capable of taking a Lando out with a few switchins, especially when paired with a Celesteela.
 
Figured I’d try and get some thoughts on a pretty fun Tyranitar set I’ve been trying out.

Tyranitar @ Scope Lens
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Night Slash
- Sucker Punch

Using Absol as the donor, Tyranitar can get dual STAB with guaranteed critical hits, as well as a priority move with a 50% chance to crit. The main use for this set is to break through defensive teams, as the most popular unaware users can’t stand up to repeated critical stone edges without being broken, especially if they switch into a hit. Both Celesteela and Chansey are guaranteed to be 2HKO, and max defense Suicune is 87.5% to 2HKO after rocks. Any defensive pokemon that isn’t unaware will be taking heavy damage if not being outright KO’d at +2, and this set even has the bonus of not being concerned with Will-o-Wisp or Scald burns, as the critical hits will ignore the attack stat reduction.

By far the best answer to this set is Magearna, so a strong answer to that is a really good partner for this set (Trapping Rotom-Heat, for example). I’ve also been experimenting with Hippowdon!Diancie as a partner as well as a specially defensive tank, to specifically help TTar brush off a stray scald Suicune may try to go for.
 
Last edited:
I just thought it would be worth noting that in the choice band buzzwole sample team, the mega altaria has roost as one of its moves--but Zygarde doesn't learn that so the set is illegal in teambuilder
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Ok so after listening to some feedback and from general internal discussion between me and Pigeons, we decided that Magnet Pull would be the first thing we would like to address.

This was decided due to the potency of offensive cores such as Heatran + Tapu Koko inheriting from Alolan-Golem and Mawile respectively, where Heatran can be used to neutralize checks to Tapu Koko such as Flash Fire Ferrothorn and Motor Drive Celesteela. From there, threats such as the aforementioned Tapu Koko and others such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Mawile, and even other notable wallbreakers such as Garchomp can usually clean lategame as their biggest checks have been taken out. Of course counterplay is most commonly seen through the use of Shed Shell, however this is usually counteracted by teams using Magnet Pull strategies in order to secure a Wincon thanks to the utility from Knock Off from severable viable users such as Alolan Muk and Toxapex inheriting from Emolga most notably.

With this in mind we feel that Magnet Pull may have a negative effect on a metagame already filled to the brim with terrifying wallbreakers, and thus we would like to see others opinions as to whether or not action should be in place to ban Magnet Pull as a whole.

We would also like to see discussion on whether or not Stall is still too potent in the current metagame even after the Murkrow ban. This is due to the style having an amazing matchup against most other playstyles due to combination of anti setup, hazard removal, and general tankiness the playstyle has with many viable inheriting options. The main target Pidgeons and I were discussing was a potential Chansey or Sableye Inheritance ban, but we are open to any other suggestions, if there is any action that needs to take place at that.
 
Oh, cool, this again.

Ban the Speed-doubling Abilities and stall will magically stop being so problematic because you won't be forced to run Extreme Speed Mawile/Medicham or half your team on your own weather/Unburden and we can then properly leverage all the "terrifying wallbreakers" Inheritance has to offer. Maybe look at Pure/Huge Power in general, too. Stall will still be good, but this would get to the crux of the matter instead of this death of a thousand cuts that we're trying to do like what happened with Baton Pass in standard.

If we're going to continue to refuse to do THAT, then ban Magnet Pull (this actually needs to go no matter what) and Chansey, suspect Celesteela, and we'll be on the right track. Lots of Pokemon can get around Sableye either through Dazzling, QM, Psychic Surge, being a Dark-type/immune to priority Will-o-Wisp, or not caring about any priority Sableye has to offer.
 
Ok so after listening to some feedback and from general internal discussion between me and Pigeons, we decided that Magnet Pull would be the first thing we would like to address.

This was decided due to the potency of offensive cores such as Heatran + Tapu Koko inheriting from Alolan-Golem and Mawile respectively, where Heatran can be used to neutralize checks to Tapu Koko such as Flash Fire Ferrothorn and Motor Drive Celesteela. From there, threats such as the aforementioned Tapu Koko and others such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Mawile, and even other notable wallbreakers such as Garchomp can usually clean lategame as their biggest checks have been taken out. Of course counterplay is most commonly seen through the use of Shed Shell, however this is usually counteracted by teams using Magnet Pull strategies in order to secure a Wincon thanks to the utility from Knock Off from severable viable users such as Alolan Muk and Toxapex inheriting from Emolga most notably.

With this in mind we feel that Magnet Pull may have a negative effect on a metagame already filled to the brim with terrifying wallbreakers, and thus we would like to see others opinions as to whether or not action should be in place to ban Magnet Pull as a whole.

We would also like to see discussion on whether or not Stall is still too potent in the current metagame even after the Murkrow ban. This is due to the style having an amazing matchup against most other playstyles due to combination of anti setup, hazard removal, and general tankiness the playstyle has with many viable inheriting options. The main target Pidgeons and I were discussing was a potential Chansey or Sableye Inheritance ban, but we are open to any other suggestions, if there is any action that needs to take place at that.

Stop immediately and rethink exactly what this is doing for the metagame. This is a fodder argument that's not actually fixing anything for the metagame as the actual issue is insane RPS matchups between offense having plenty of priority and broken Steel sweepers, Stall having some absolutely unbreakable beasts with Sableye inherit, and Rain / Sun making it nigh on impossible for any balance build to successfully exist in the current metagame because of the insane quantity of wallbreakers that are boosted that balance is supposed to take on with more limited slots. How is it currently fair that; Magnet Pull, an ability that barely even traps efficiently, is being considered for a suspect over the likes of Mega Medicham, Magearna and Chansey, which have extremely unhealthy problems with overcentralization due to the sheer amount of what they take on or the sheer versatility that they can afford which would make Magnet Pull support unneeded? Magnet Pull doesn't even trap the best Steels in the metagame reliably without Shed Shell - the only exception to this rule is Specs Heatran, which is vulnerable to Magnet Pull itself and therefore literally doesn't even change the building issue because you still have to deal with something you thought you outright trapped. Note that the Steels also have other options for other trappers - Celesteela has Vivillon and Dragonite sets capable of simply shrugging off hits boosted and/or retailating with a crippling move that makes the trapper unable to do anything, and Magearna commonly runs Hidden Power Ground to deal with Fire-types anyway, preventing the likes of Heatran from breaking at all. If this is not enough for you, then consider how the defensive sets simply escape with Shed Shell, or how RegenVest Celesteela can just pivot straight out of a matchup and only feel a scratch. Celesteela and Magearna aren't common Knock Off targets either, and require team prep to lure them. Once you have two slots just to take down the Steel, don't you think that the rest of the team is balanced out by this severe penalty?

EDIT: Emolga Celesteela straight isn't an answer to Tapu Koko - it loses to both Substitute and Fire Fang, two of the strongest options as of right now. Ferrothorn also takes heavy chip from dealing with Koko and may find it hard to play around with Substitute. Magnet Pull isn't helping much here either, due to Shed Shell outright escaping the core - and note it can still do its roles well!
 
Simple, Drampa should have gone into Swampert and not Celesteela. Assuming it was max Defense, from that range Drampa was capable of stalling out Synthesis, and tanking a Swords Dance boosted hit.

0 Atk Swampert Aqua Tail vs. +1 76 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 152-182 (44.9 - 53.8%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 330-388 (81.6 - 96%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Extreme Speed vs. +1 76 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 107-126 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 84.9% chance to 3HKO
Chance of hitting 8 Aqua Tails in a row, and missing one or hitting 9 in a row: 0.732
So yeah, I would say this is definitely in Drampa's favour.
Drampa could have also gone Swampert on Magearna to prevent Lando from setting up early.
If not the play, Drampa could have also gone Archeops to Brave Bird and burn Synthesis PP:
252 Atk Archeops Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 151-178 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
Medicham put both of these into range - point is strong priority helps pressure Unburden users into tight spots where they find theirselves continually pressured to recover on weaker targets just to get out of the situation. A Marowak is easily capable of taking a Lando out with a few switchins, especially when paired with a Celesteela.
If the best counterplay to a mon includes “sack something just to chip it down”, that is a problem. And again, the biggest problem with Unburden is its matchup against offense, which doesn’t have the ability to fit max defense Swamperts and the like.

In regards to your earlier arguments against my point, I don’t see a single offensive Sableye inheritor on the (admittedly outdated why is Zygarde still in C) VR, and the only thing resembling a “Regenerator scarfer” there is Heracross, which is by no means an answer to anything carrying Acrobatics. Magearna gets rocked by the most common abuser unless it’s packing Levitate, I can’t imagine why Snorlax would be considered a counter, and four of the seven Masquerain inheritors listed are weak to either Acrobatics or Earthquake. Screens and Celesteela fare a bit better, but they alone aren’t enough to justify letting things stand as they are right now.

And again, we loop back around to Unaware and the other defensive answers to Unburden. Yes, they do work somewhat consistently, but the issue is that they are the only strategies that work somewhat consistently. This is the crux of my argument: at the end of the day Unburden is certainly far from unbeatable, but the tactics required to make it so are skewed so heavily towards the defensive side that it ends up having a disproportionately large impact on the viability of entire team archetypes within the meta. As such, even if it isn’t technically “broken” in a vacuum, the ability is still unhealthy enough for Inheritance as a whole that I think it needs to be at least considered for a ban.
 
If the best counterplay to a mon includes “sack something just to chip it down”, that is a problem. And again, the biggest problem with Unburden is its matchup against offense, which doesn’t have the ability to fit max defense Swamperts and the like.

In regards to your earlier arguments against my point, I don’t see a single offensive Sableye inheritor on the (admittedly outdated why is Zygarde still in C) VR, and the only thing resembling a “Regenerator scarfer” there is Heracross, which is by no means an answer to anything carrying Acrobatics. Magearna gets rocked by the most common abuser unless it’s packing Levitate, I can’t imagine why Snorlax would be considered a counter, and four of the seven Masquerain inheritors listed are weak to either Acrobatics or Earthquake. Screens and Celesteela fare a bit better, but they alone aren’t enough to justify letting things stand as they are right now.

And again, we loop back around to Unaware and the other defensive answers to Unburden. Yes, they do work somewhat consistently, but the issue is that they are the only strategies that work somewhat consistently. This is the crux of my argument: at the end of the day Unburden is certainly far from unbeatable, but the tactics required to make it so are skewed so heavily towards the defensive side that it ends up having a disproportionately large impact on the viability of entire team archetypes within the meta. As such, even if it isn’t technically “broken” in a vacuum, the ability is still unhealthy enough for Inheritance as a whole that I think it needs to be at least considered for a ban.
OK, maybe I'll admit it, Unburden counterplay is a little short on Hyper Offense, but this is to be expected of doubling speed anyway versus any style that can't keep usage of Webs. The whole thing that makes Hyper Offense viable is that it can carry on momentum, and priority is able to fix that very issue that plagues it. Alongside that, you have resistances to Landorus such as Archeops, Thundurus and Celesteela, alongside a plethora of priority options and super effective attacks if need be, say for example, on a Masquerain Water-type, which will easily beat down a Landorus, if not, letting in a potentially game ending threat, in; you guessed it, Mega Medicham and Magearna. Terrakion finds it super hard to even set up a Belly Drum against these sorts of offenses - this is what prevents the likes of Azumarill in OU from outright sweeping, because of the offensive pressure, it is not capable of setting up to +6 without then having to deal with another blanket resistance to priority. Even the likes of Protean inherits can be devastating for a low HP Landorus / Terrakion, just the same way priority is deadly for Azumarill. In the same vein, comparing OU's Hawlucha to Inheritance Landorus, it is clear that the easy way to beat Landorus, like with Hawlucha, is to have a mon that can tank a hit and deal significant damage back so that the rest of the team can deal with it.

This also talks about Hyper Offense matchups only, where in a case of Unburden, defensive pivots such as Sableye!Magearna, Celesteela, Suicune and Tapu Fini can all give these mons issues. A mon is allowed to be very effective against a singular style - this is not a problem if it loses to the rest of the metagame. You know who don't have this issue? You guessed it, Mega Medicham and Magearna, as they aren't one shot stops which fizzle out if they can't sweep. All of its issues may be skewed to the defensive side, but it isn't like Unburden is very tough to counter, as all of the mons that can pull it off are good at other things, and if I were to tell you to go use X niche mon on offense instead, yes, I would believe that the inheritors were broken. If I were to also tell you that priority is broken because of how limited offense has counterplay to that, it would seem quite absurd. However, both priority and Unburden, however little their counterplay is, should not be the ones to go. I would argue that instead, the best abusers, in this case, Medicham and Magearna must go as they are capable of doing what Unburden can twice as badly imo, and are far more restricting to a larger area of playstyles than Unburden is as of now. But I have to respect your points even if I do seem like I'm rambling. I just don't believe Unburden is urgently broken enough to warrant a ban first.

Also edit: My point on Regenerator Scarfers is invalid for Landorus only. When considering other users however, Buzzwole comes to mind as being one of the viable users. You may have to look around for others; the VR is quite outdated and lacks some changes that should have been made a while ago. Snorlax is not a counter however, that was bad wording on my mistake - I was again, talking about how it inheriting from an Extreme Speed user, say Arcanine (I'll get to why that's good in another post) will get the relevant users killed from chip (see: Tapu Bulu)
 
Last edited:
pikachu/raichu can have it and this is inheritance mate
The event that released that move in question came with Extereme Speed, Thunderbolt, Brick Break, and Grass Knot, so there would be no way for it to have Volt Tackle with it since it would need to use a method that would not let it keep the move.

EDIT: The shiny part has nothing to do with it, as the event mon could be shiny.
 
Cool set:

Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Zen Headbutt
- High Jump Kick
- Power Whip

Haven't had much time to test it yet, but on paper it looks kinda cool--play rough would be for mega sableye, and pwer ship for things like suicune and the like, while retaining the fighting stab that still lets you do mega damage

^^I guess the main issue with this set would be accuracy, but meh it's pokemon
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top