Introducing the OU (no Mega) Ladder

[Red Cat]

Just saying...

Putting megas in a no mega latter defeats the point.

We wanted to see a meta with no megas. Even if you put in Mega Banette it defeats the point.

However, if they do decide to ignore the (No Megas) title and put in megas to see how it affects the mega less meta would be interesting.

But still, if you're putting in meh megas like Zam and Aero, they probably wont impact the meta that much as they dont really promote over centralization...

I'm interested in the idea.

Mega Alakazam and Aerodactyl are A- rank in the viability rankings, and the main reason they are not higher is the opportunity cost of not being able to use better megas. Even Mega Banette has a niche with Prankster Destiny Bond, but in OU there are better uses for your mega slot than a suicidal revenge killer. The only megas I can think of which truly suck in their own right are Mega Abomasnow and maybe Mega Glalie.

OU already allows some megas and bans others, so while it would be interesting to allow weaker megas to shine without the better ones available, letting any mega back in basically amounts to this meta being OU using the UU suspect process to determine which megas are banned and which are not while standard OU is the same meta, but using the OU suspect process. If the point of this ladder is to test that process out, then we might as well cut the crap with the no mega title and ban Landorus, Keldeo, and any other close to being broken OU threat for this ladder and go from there.

 

[Flarowak]

Man i did not expect to be doing so well in this ladder, but it also seems like not so many people are playing it. Idk why, it's so awesome, especially if you just want a break from all the op'ness of megas in OU. I think this meta is actually super clean, and even though there are some real threats, they aren't anywhere near the level of megas imo. That's my two cents. I think it's an equally fun and awesome meta, and is totally worth playing.

 

[SagMyPants]

I am glad this meta is geting attention. Banning all megas from the beginning would have been a more elegant rule that would have saved us all of the suspect testing we have to do now.

Coming from the ORAS OU viability ranking we have

S Rank:

Keldeo

Landorus

A+ Rank

Azumarill
Bisharp
Clefable
Gengar
Gliscor
Heatran
Landorus-T
Latios
Talonflame
Thundurus

A Rank

Celebi
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Hippowdon
Manaphy
Rotom-W
Tyranitar


Just from looking at this partial list Politoed has a niche in complementing Azumarill and Keldeo, and Hippowdon and Tyranitar can sustain Sandstorm as if it was still permanent weather.

(All standard sets)
A rain team.
Azumarill
Keldeo
Politoed
Ferrothorn/Celebi
Rotom-W/Bisharp/Starmie
Thundurus/Bisharp

A sand team.
Tyranitar
Hippowdon
Ferrothorn
Excadrill/Bisharp
Clefable/Latios
Garchomp/Landorus

What are viable weather teams?

 

[RonaldMcdonald]

I'm not an expert on rain but it's imperative for a rain team to have strong checks to Bisharp and talonflame because they are everywhere here. I assume what works in regular OU will work here with some slight adjustments (no Mega-Swampert for instance). At least one swift swimmer is necessary to really get momentum. Sand is harder. The standard Charizard-Y dual weather builds which are so successful in regular OU obviously won't work here. By nature of how sand works it is a lot less weak to the standard bisharp and talonflame priority and is a lot more vulnerable to azumarill's aqua jet and conkeldur's mach punch (Conk is everywhere in this meta and is really good). Sand and rain must also account for keldeo because it can do work against both styles if not careful.

Clefable is not a bad idea on sand at all as it's good against fighting types and provides a status absorber and a check to a few threatening ice attackers (weaville, Kyurem-B, but unfortunately not Mamoswine who can be a pain for sand balance). If you want to run hippo and T-Tar I would probably run sand balance with Clefable which is actually really good. Excadrill however is required for any sand team and I would not run Garchomp or Landorus if you are already running T-Tar and Hippowdon (I would run sand force Hippo with EQ and Stone Edge if you are running Tyranitar) because you are already really stacking weaknesses to water types. For a more offensive sand (though actually it could probably work on both Sand-Balanced and Sand Offense) Celebi is not a bad choice over Ferrothorn in this meta-game and synergizes well with T-Tar (Celebi also beats Rotom-W more handily than Ferrothorn which is a pain for Sand in general). However hippo is harder to fit on more offensive Sand teams because it is more passive, though I must say Hippo is really good in this meta-game where Conkeldur and Terrakion are big issues and Bisharp is common (Landorus-T usage has dropped in this meta for this reason). Hazard removal is necessary unless you want to run some really offensive sand team. Starmie and the Latis can both work on sand though the Lati's are probably better as they provide better defensive utility to sand resisting fighting, water, grass, and being immune to ground. Excadrill can also spin if necessary. I would not run Bisharp on Sand if you are already running Tyranitar because of lack of offensive and defensive synergy.

Lastly another wall breaker besides Excadrill would be helpful that doesn't synergize awfully defensively while helping out offensively. Charizard-Y would be perfect because it can break bulky waters and grasses simultaneously (which is frankly amazing) but there's nothing quite like Zard-Y in this meta. Running fire coverage on something like Clefable could help against Ferrothorn and Scizor on the switch (another mon who is everywhere). Celebi provides another option to beat waters (as does Serperior but I feel it would get worn down really quickly on Sand so it would have to be on an offensive build.) Experimentation I think is probably the best course of action. I wish I had all the answers. Maybe someone else does lol.

 

[qways]

if you want something similar to chary try infernape with gras knot, cc, fblast and nasty plot or slack off.

im somewhat high on the ladder and i blame sdef gliscor for it, who just wrecks team, often the opponent has only 1 or 2 mon to threaten it out and thjose dislike switching it knock off.

 

[RonaldMcdonald]

Victini is another mon that could replace Charizard-Y on sand (infernape is also a good suggestion especially because it is usually not choice locked) as it has access to V-Create and bolt strike. I can also confirm that Gliscor is very good. I have used the swords dance set with facade and earthquake but sub-toxic (or should I say sub-fling more people use it in my experience than toxic) is also threat and knock off is also good on it to beat Gengar as the facade set is completely walled by it. Knock off is simply good in general though it's not as powerful as facade on gliscor.

 

[MANNAT]

Victini is another mon that could replace Charizard-Y on sand (infernape is also a good suggestion especially because it is usually not choice locked) as it has access to V-Create and bolt strike. I can also confirm that Gliscor is very good. I have used the swords dance set with facade and earthquake but sub-toxic (or should I say sub-fling more people use it in my experience than toxic) is also threat and knock off is also good on it to beat Gengar as the facade set is completely walled by it. Knock off is simply good in general though it's not as powerful as facade on gliscor.

To be honest, the best Gliscor set atm is SD, Roost, Knock Off, and Earthquake.

 

[Jaguar360]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-03/ounomega-1630.txt

Taking a look at these usage stats, its seems that most things are similar to normal OU but with some subtle changes and a few bigger changes.

Notably Weavile is way more common on the No Mega ladder, probably because it is the fastest viable non-Mega aside from Talonflame and possibly Crobat and Jolteon and has the benefit of a fast and powerful STAB Knock Off that will pretty much affect anything. Going off that last point about speed, Crobat and Jolteon actually have decent usage on the no Mega ladder whereas they are most non-existent in regular OU.

Other Pokemon that have gotten notable usage spikes are Crawdaunt, Togekiss, Espeon, Staraptor, Heatran, Azu, Raikou and Terrakion. The lack of Magic Bounce users probably caused the Espeon rise, Raikou doesn't have to compete with Megaman anymore, Crawdaunt gets more freedom to Knock things off, Azu doesn't have Mega Venu and Slowbro to counter it anymore and can also Knock Off freely and I can't think of specific reasons for the other three.

Interestingly enough, Bisharp's usage only increased a little bit in spite of the hype surrounding it on this ladder. Keldeo, the most common Bisharp check, also had a severe drop in usage surprisngly.

Of the ones that didn't already have Megas, only Thundurus-I and Landorus-T had notable drops in usage. Thundurus' usage probably dropped because its golden speed tier isn't as golden without Megagross, Mega Diancie, Mega Gallade and Mega Pinsir around and it has less setup sweepers to stop. Landorus-T can't check Megagross, Zard X, Mega Pinsir, Mega Aero, or Mega Beedrill anymore, so it's understandable why it's being used less.

 

[Noveliss]

Just wondering, but will there by any chance be a viability ranking thread for this?

 

[AM]

Just wondering, but will there by any chance be a viability ranking thread for this?

Depends on how long and the demand for one basically. Celticpride has shown interest in creating one but we'll need to gauge the activity and interest of this more before going through with it.

 

[SketchUp]

I think a viability ranking would be nice because the ladder is not small (atm it is 2x as big as the PU ladder) and it will help newer players in this metagame. Only thing that should be considered is that this ladder is not permanent so making a viability ranking and see the ladder disappear a few days after would be a waste of time. I am interested in a viability ranking btw

 

[Master B8s]

I think a viability ranking would be nice because the ladder is not small (atm it is 2x as big as the PU ladder) and it will help newer players in this metagame. Only thing that should be considered is that this ladder is not permanent so making a viability ranking and see the ladder disappear a few days after would be a waste of time. I am interested in a viability ranking btw

I'm going to second this because even PU started as an OMoM, but PU grew to be a popular meta game, as clearly this has to. Not to mention with the removal of megas, not only does that remove 30+ threats or so, but increases different viablities of each pokemon.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

If possible I'd love for this to become a permanent ladder. I actually enjoy this more then regular OU. Teambuilding/Team Matchup is much less of an issue. Currently I find OU to be a meta where broken megas check other broken megas. Now that works for OU, but I like having this option. I'd argue Landorous is potentially broken here, but other then that the meta is great. Knock Off spam is a bit of an issue, but getting a knock off absorber isn't too hard. If it isn't too much trouble keep this alive would be great.

 

[UnicornDemon2]

Well, I haven't played this ladder much yet, but just a few games in and I can already tell this is waaayyy better than the standard OU ladder. Now I can build a team more easily without trying to prepare for 20+ ridiculously powerful wall-breakers or defensive behemoths. This is nice.

 

[56k]

Despite being unable to mega-evolve can you have a pokemon hold its megastone to resist knock off and trick?

 

[jpw234]

Yes.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Despite being unable to mega-evolve can you have a pokemon hold its megastone to resist knock off and trick?

Technically yes, though I can't think of any that would really benefit from that as opposed to just giving it a normal item.

 

[UnicornDemon2]

It's pretty interesting to compare the usage statistics for the standard ladder and the No Mega Ladder. This is looking at higher ranked matches (i.e. 1760+) for the month of March:

• Talonflame seems to be a way bigger threat, almost centralizing. It's usage went from 15.6% on the normal ladder to 22.3% on the No Mega ladder, i.e. on nearly a quarter of teams. That's pretty big when you consider its demanding need for rapid spin/defog support. Also, T-Flame's best counters and checks are each occupying the other spots in the top 4 (Lando-T is #1, Heatran is #2, and Rotom-Wash is #4 in usage -> each get 22%+ usage). All this definitely makes sense considering the loss of certain checks such as Mega-Man, M-Diancie, and M-Gross.
• On that note, Rotom-Wash and Heatran's usage both increased by 10% and 8% respectively.
• Garchomp's usage plummetted in No mega, from 27.5% to 8.9%. It also runs stealth rock only half as much as it does in Standard. Also, in Standard Ladder it's most popular set is physically defensive with rocky helmet, which is much less popular in No-Mega. I don't really use Garchomp well enough to explain these discrepancies...
• Latias's usage plummeted as well (18.5% M vs. 9% in No-M) while Latios's usage shot up (12.7% M vs. 18.8% No-M). This makes sense: In the No Mega ladder, there are far fewer Latios checks (e.g. M-Diancie, M-Gross), and the speed creep has been reduced dramatically. The lack of checks makes Latios' sweeping capability and offensive stats far more valuable. Meanwhile the extra checks in the Standard Ladder make Lati@s less effective attackers overall, causing Latias's staying power to be more valuable than Latios's offense in the standard ladder.
  
• Manaphy's usage plummeted (10% Mega vs. 2.8% No-Mega)- I guess it's main niche in OU was its ability to plow through both Mega-Slowbro and Mega-Sableye.
• Clefable's usage shot up (10.4% M vs. 19.2% No-M)- No M-Gross. 'nuff said
• Weavile's usage shot up (2.21% M vs. 8.62% No-M)- It's high speed is more valuable in a slower tier. Also, lack of Megas = huge knock off buff. Also, no M-Gross, M-Diancie, M-Sableye, etc.

These are the only Pokemon I saw that had at least 6% difference in usage between the two ladders. Of course, there were quite a few other Pokemon that had a mild increase (e.g. Sylveon and Conkeldurr had roughly a 5% increase in usage in No-M).

 

[p2]

Garchomp is a lot more viable in normal OU because the Rocky set is used for punishing megas like Mgross or MLop, but you'd still think it'd have a fair bit of usage considering how popular Talonflame is. But then you need to consider that stuff like Weavile and Sylveon / Clefable are so much more viable and they are pretty difficult for Garchomp to get around and in Weavile or Sylveons case, they can be difficult to switch into.

 

[56k]

Sylveon is extraordinarily good. It fills a role similar to clefable but packs a much more serious punch on turn1 and hits through subs. Clefable might be the superior choice for some teams but I have been using a physically defensive set with hyper voice / calm mind / wish / protect and if I can keep it safe from status and weaken the fire types it can often set up or simply 2hko the opponent. Mid battle it passes wishes to soften switch ins so I'm not forced to recover on my next turn and can instead fire off an attack with whatever I wish passed to. My team is chock full of heatran lures and talonflame checks. Ideally heatran switches in thinking it can get some free rocks or lava plumes but in the process finds itself too weakened to continue taking on sylveon, especially if it loses its leftovers and takes hazard damages. Sylveon itself naturally checks a wide range of threats just by virtue of recovering 50% + 6% + 6% every two turns. Invested, it is awfully bulky.

 

[Martin]

Hey! Maybe Hippowdon will finally see the usage it deserves!

In all seriousness though, this sounds very fun. I like the idea of having no megas, and it really opens up a vast number of options when teambuilding. Also, the lack of Mega Sableye and Diancie is going to have a huge effect on the usefulness of suicide leads like Azelf, Custap Skarm/Forry and Dual Screens Latios. Also it makes Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D even more unhealthy than they were before, so its a good job that they are gone ;P

It really opens up the floodgates for a large number of otherwise very good Pokémon which are held back by the presence of certain mega evolutions, and the surge in Knock Off usage is going to increase the value of defensive Fairy- and Fighting-types, as well as decreasing the value of the Psychic- and Ghost-types. TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if this move gets suspected in the no mega metagame as it is completely ridiculous.

 

[UnicornDemon2]

So, seeing as this thread currently gets like half a post a day on average, I thought I'd try to strike up a conversation to hear what you all think about the current state of the metagame:

1. Are there any underrated Pokemon which have significant, untapped potential?
2. What trends or playstyles seem to be most popular in the metagame right now?
3. What are the metagame's top threats? If a viability ranking thread were established, what are the strongest candidates for S-rank?

I've played the metagame a decent amount (200+ battles), and have a few things to say. I'm curious to hear what you all think, though. My answers to the above questions:

1. I wouldn't know, lol. All of the Pokemon I use on my teams are fairly common. The least popular Pokemon I use are Diggersby and Victini (with choice band). Victini is a monster, but I suppose the stealth rock weakness holds it back. I feel like Gothitelle should be getting more usage than it does. I've found trickscarf/rest/calm mind to be very good right now for dealing with extremely popular Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Clefable, etc. Even if you're facing a heavily offensive team where each Pokemon can 3HKO Gothitelle, he can still pull his weight by neutering an otherwise threatening set-up sweeper. I had balance team that was weak to Serperior, so every time I faced one I ended up trapping and trick-scarfing it with 'telle, killing Gothitelle in the process but essentially turning the Serperior into a huge pile of set-up bait for my Ferrothorn for the rest of the match. Shit was dope.
2. Offense, definitely. Balance teams too, but it seems like most teams that I face are carrying 6 fast, powerful Pokemon raining pressure on you the moment the match begins. Speaking of rain, I just got swept by a rain team. They can be a bitch, honestly - it's easy to build a strong team that can handle most metagame threats but falls apart when faced with two swift swimmers and 100% hurricanes/thunders.
3. Landorus- it kills something at least once in every match, often even each time it switches in. Talonflame- severely restricts team-building, especially for offensive teams. Ferrothorn- without Mega-Sableye around, it's pretty difficult to prevent this thing from constantly shitting out spikes and leech seed, unless like every Pokemon on your team is carrying taunt or HP fire. Gengar- I have an assault vest user on nearly every team (Raikou, Conkeldurr, etc.) just to deal with Gengar, sub + 3 attacks is terrifying to face; Clefable- nothing has changed, it can still sweep through unprepared teams with its brain-dead calm mind set

 

[That Weirdd Guy]

When it come to underrated I would have to say Manaphy. Even though Manaphy's usage has plummeted, it still is a fearsome wall breaker, especially under rain (people still toxic it in rain, lol). Manaphy tears through balance and even though it struggles to pull its weight in a more offensive battle it can switch in, get up a tail glow, and kill something on the force out. Manaphy can also have evs in bulk to help it set up. Another pokemon that I would love to try out would be klefki, there are a lot less megas that can stop this thing from stacking spikes and no sweepers appreciate a t-wave. It can synergize well with many other pokemon with its awesome typing, and has pretty decent bulk despite the lack of recovery

I have been using rain, and been doing fairly well, with around 40+ matches with my rain team. Ferrothorn, Bisharp, and Talonflame are everywhere, but I have seen a lot of different pokemon used effectively. Anyways I have noticed that Gengar with sub+3 attacks and even sub+pain split is a pain to fight, along with assault vest Conkeldurr. Breloom is another pokemon that seems to be underrated despite the Talonflame dominance. Fighting type in general has surged in popularity due to the sheer amount of knock off users ( I am looking at you Bisharp and Weavile).

As far as general trends are going I have noticed mostly balance, and offensive teams not necessarily hyper offense but just 6 strong fast pokemon teams. I have yet to run into a stall team, and I do not know if this is due to the smaller number of users, lack of time to figure out what defensive cores work, or lack of viability. I have rain into mostly rain and sand teams, which are quite threatening, but appear to only be offensive, not balance. However I did run into a semi-sun team that gave me a run for my money. The weather nerf has help decentralize the metagame away from weather wars without totally invalidating weather, though many do not prepare for it.

Landorus and Talonflame for S rank all the way, maybe a Bisharp too.

All in all I have been really enjoying this metagame, and despite the growing pains, it is turning out to be much more diverse and fun for me. I have not used Landorus-I so I cannot say whether it should be suspected, but I would be interested in a Talonflame or Knock Off suspect, one the metagame has gotten a bit more attention.

 

[RonaldMcdonald]

Dragonite is one pokemon that has gotten more popular in No-Mega though I still think it is underrated. The Band and Dragon Dance sets are both really good and Extreme Speed outprioritizing Talonflame is amazing. I would say it's at least A rank in no-mega.

I personally don't think anything should be suspected atm. The metagame still needs time to settle in. I personally don't think Knock Off is broken-and while Talonflame is centralizing I would not call it broken either. Banning Knock Off would nerf a lot of pokemon significantly and is something that can be dealt with through proper teambuilding, though it has annoyingly few drawbacks and I'm guilty of abusing the move a lot.

The S-Ranks of the metagame are Landorus-I, Talonflame, and Bisharp in that order imo. Keldeo doesn't feel like S-Rank to me despite the sheer number of dark types including Bisharp, Weaville, and even the surprisingly popular Mandibuzz. Latios, Starmie, Azumarill, and Clefable are very popular at the moment and all seem to be hurting Keldeo's effectiveness, though I would say it is the best pokemon in A+ if there was every a tier list made for the tier. Along with Keldeo other candidates for A+ would include the four popular Keldeo checks mentioned above (Starmie is so good in this metagame), Gengar, Gliscor, Heatran, Thundurus, and maybe Ferrothorn which definitely got a lot better. Garchomp is also a candidate though the prevalence of Latios hurts it. Pokemon in A rank that aren't A rank in regular overused would probably include Weavile (yes it's that good here), Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Raikou(less competition from Mega-Man), Dragonite, Terrakion, Landorus-T (A+ in regular OU) and maybe even Gyrados, Scizor, Conkeldur, and Victini (very few good fire types) although the last four might be better in A- on the fence about them. I have talked about Conkeldur before but it is probably the pokemon that improved the most from regular Overused.

 

[North Gate]

There is probably less stall because you can't use Mega Sableye, who by now is a staple to stall teams in OU.