Metagame Inverse

#76
Personally, I'm a little unsure about Snorlax. I agree that it's unhealthy, but only because it forces you to possess a counter. Snorlax, unlike Diggersby and even Komala, does have very definable counters; some of them don't even succumb to prolonged pressure. You can stop it with Roar Avalugg to an extent, Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mew, Haze Articuno, Haze Toxapex and others. The issue is that all of these counters, except for Gliscor, will most definitely get paralyzed from Body Slam. You could say Snorlax is very unhealthy, but not outright broken when compared to Diggersby. With that said, I'm definitely in favor of banning Snorlax. If you look at the current ban list, you'd definitely agree that Snorlax is probably at the same level of unhealthiness as Serperior. They set up and go haywire, but both have definable counters. Let's make Inverse balanced again! Not that it was ever balanced. This is Inverse's new beginning! (ps. I'm also interested in hearing everybody's thoughts regarding Komala.)
 
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#77
Snorlax is difficult, it can run several sets, and is quite unpredictable, which makes it dangerous because the lax user knows which pokemon the opponent needs to keep healthy, but the other player does not. "You can stop it with Roar Avalugg to an extent, Taunt Gliscor, Taunt Mew, Haze Articuno, Haze Toxapex and others", Adrian Marin. Pressure on these pokemon from other setup attackers is important for snorlax. My favorite way to check with it is powerful special attackers like specs koko and gengar. It just feels like a shedinja, it just sits in the back doing nothing, but as soon as a certain pokemon/mons die, it wins. Granted, this is the case for many pokemon, that is how the game is played, but snorlax is an exaggerated perfect example. I am leaning towards banning snorlax, but I would not be outraged if it stayed, I would just smh.
 
#78
I am using komala on a trick room team, and i can say it is quite potent, and ohkos a lot of mons with band sleep talk last resort. It has a lot of pp and cant be statused and in trick room it is very fast. It is not superbulky but able to survive most moves and it is super easy to use since you just spam sleep talk last resort every time. It does have its counters though: physically bulky mon like avalugg and porygon2 are not 2hkoed and something like focus sash alakazam can survive an attack and hit it with shadow ball. For non trick room teams, its speed is very low i think though, so hyper offense teams will have a lot of options to outspeed and ohko it. I therefore dont think it is banworthy. Snorlax on the other account is a lot bulkier and has semi-good recovery options with berry recycle or sleep talk rest. Some would be counters also don,t work since being physically bulky is not enough to stop snorlax from cursing all the way up to +4. I am not saying that haze mons are the only option, but if a mon is only stoppable by haze mons it has to be banned imo and im not seeing a lot of sturdy counters besides that. Taunt mons are not always bulky enough and get paraed by body slam, there are no good physical ghost type users and after a curse or two even that is not good enough, and snorlax is on the special side quite bulky so i dont know if it will be ohkoed by chandelure and blacephalon and the like, while both get koed by body slam in return.
 
#79
I am using komala on a trick room team, and i can say it is quite potent, and ohkos a lot of mons with band sleep talk last resort. It has a lot of pp and cant be statused and in trick room it is very fast. It is not superbulky but able to survive most moves and it is super easy to use since you just spam sleep talk last resort every time. It does have its counters though: physically bulky mon like avalugg and porygon2 are not 2hkoed and something like focus sash alakazam can survive an attack and hit it with shadow ball. For non trick room teams, its speed is very low i think though, so hyper offense teams will have a lot of options to outspeed and ohko it. I therefore dont think it is banworthy. Snorlax on the other account is a lot bulkier and has semi-good recovery options with berry recycle or sleep talk rest. Some would be counters also don,t work since being physically bulky is not enough to stop snorlax from cursing all the way up to +4. I am not saying that haze mons are the only option, but if a mon is only stoppable by haze mons it has to be banned imo and im not seeing a lot of sturdy counters besides that. Taunt mons are not always bulky enough and get paraed by body slam, there are no good physical ghost type users and after a curse or two even that is not good enough, and snorlax is on the special side quite bulky so i dont know if it will be ohkoed by chandelure and blacephalon and the like, while both get koed by body slam in return.
I personally think that people aren't giving Snorlax the respect it deserves, unlike the late Diggersby. Everyone packed a band Diggersby counter, but somehow, no one can afford to use Mew, Gliscor and others? Anyway, I do agree Snorlax is rather unhealthy, but to what extent, exactly? It'd be quite enlightening to see some of the top player's and council member's point of view. Actually, some of the arguments regarding Snorlax can be applied to Meloetta and others, which is why I'm still a little unsure. I think a little bit of creativity will go a long way. I, for one, just built a rather reliable counter to Snorlax by utilizing Worry Seed Tangrowth.


htworgnaT (Tangrowth) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Worry Seed

Leech Seed is all Tangrowth needs to stay healthy against Snorlax. The crux of this set is Worry Seed, which replaces Snorlax's ability with Insomnia, preventing Snorlax from using Rest. If you think about it, Tangrowth only really needs 3 moves. I personally find Sleep Powder to be rather underwhelming thanks to Tapu Koko, Gliscor and others running around.

Snorlax is bulky enough to get past even Hyper Offense teams. I may have a slightly biased point of view due to my penchant for stall, but I agree that it's very problematic for other playstyles. It's like if OU suddenly unbanned Palkia, it'd still get completely walled by Chansey, with little to no counterplay (at least Dialga has Bulk Up and can set rocks.) Indeed, this case is no different. Stall has no issues dealing with Snorlax, but other playstyles do. In spite of my previous statements—all in all—I'm in favor of banning Snorlax. Still, I'd like to see the meta settle down a bit. You don't have as much incentive to run Avalugg now at the moment, so I suppose you can use something more specific to counter Snorlax now? Gliscor, for example, also functions as a blanket check to many Pokemon, including Cloyster, so that's useful in the long run.


freekhoorn also, are you the TR guy I fought several times? If so, let me just say I thoroughly enjoyed theorymonning with you! I just have to mention that Komala does have an incredibly high chance of 2HKOing Porygon2, unlike Diggersby. (252+ Atk Choice Band Komala Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO) Perhaps there's something wrong with your Komala's EVs?
 
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#81
I personally think that people aren't giving Snorlax the respect it deserves, unlike the late Diggersby. Everyone packed a band Diggersby counter, but somehow, no one can afford to use Mew, Gliscor and others? Anyway, I do agree Snorlax is rather unhealthy, but to what extent, exactly? It'd be quite enlightening to see some of the top player's and council member's point of view. Actually, some of the arguments regarding Snorlax can be applied to Meloetta and others, which is why I'm still a little unsure. I think a little bit of creativity will go a long way. I, for one, just built a rather reliable counter to Snorlax by utilizing Worry Seed Tangrowth.


thworgnaT (Tangrowth) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Worry Seed

Leech Seed is all Tangrowth needs to stay healthy against Snorlax. The crux of this set is Worry Seed, which replaces Snorlax's ability with Insomnia, preventing Snorlax from using Rest. If you think about it, Tangrowth only really needs 3 moves. I personally find Sleep Powder to be rather underwhelming thanks to Tapu Koko, Gliscor and others running around.

Snorlax is bulky enough to get past even Hyper Offense teams. I may have a slightly biased point of view due to my penchant for stall, but I agree that it's very problematic for other playstyles. It's like if OU suddenly unbanned Palkia, it'd still get completely walled by Chansey, with little to no counterplay (at least Dialga has Bulk Up and can set rocks.) Indeed, this case is no different. Stall has no issues dealing with Snorlax, but other playstyles do. In spite of my previous statements—all in all—I'm in favor of banning Snorlax. Still, I'd like to see the meta settle down a bit. You don't have as much incentive to run Avalugg now at the moment, so I suppose you can use something more specific to counter Snorlax now? Gliscor, for example, also functions as a blanket check to many Pokemon, including Cloyster, so that's useful in the long run.


freekhoorn also, are you the TR guy I fought several times? If so, let me just say I thoroughly enjoyed theorymonning with you! I just have to mention that Komala does have an incredibly high chance of 2HKOing Porygon2, unlike Diggersby. (252+ Atk Choice Band Komala Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 178-210 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO) Perhaps there's something wrong with your Komala's EVs?
Yeah i am! Oh i thought porygon 2 was bulky enough to survive two hits, my bad. I really enjoyed the theorymonning too haha, the team was not very good though so it needs some extra theorymonning haha.
Would banning Last Resort outright be out of the question?
I think that would be a good idea. The move is just too spammable on almost everything it gets. Also ambipom wrecks havoc with it. (I do like using komala tough haha)
 
#82
I am using komala on a trick room team, and i can say it is quite potent, and ohkos a lot of mons with band sleep talk last resort. It has a lot of pp and cant be statused and in trick room it is very fast. It is not superbulky but able to survive most moves and it is super easy to use since you just spam sleep talk last resort every time. It does have its counters though: physically bulky mon like avalugg and porygon2 are not 2hkoed and something like focus sash alakazam can survive an attack and hit it with shadow ball. For non trick room teams, its speed is very low i think though, so hyper offense teams will have a lot of options to outspeed and ohko it. I therefore dont think it is banworthy. Snorlax on the other account is a lot bulkier and has semi-good recovery options with berry recycle or sleep talk rest. Some would be counters also don,t work since being physically bulky is not enough to stop snorlax from cursing all the way up to +4. I am not saying that haze mons are the only option, but if a mon is only stoppable by haze mons it has to be banned imo and im not seeing a lot of sturdy counters besides that. Taunt mons are not always bulky enough and get paraed by body slam, there are no good physical ghost type users and after a curse or two even that is not good enough, and snorlax is on the special side quite bulky so i dont know if it will be ohkoed by chandelure and blacephalon and the like, while both get koed by body slam in return.
using the same komala team, it has preformed admirably.
 

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#84
I doubt last resort is broken due to the whole "requires another move" thing

However, the normal type's entire existence is... confusing; to say the least.
 
#85
I doubt last resort is broken due to the whole "requires another move" thing

However, the normal type's entire existence is... confusing; to say the least.
The two main users of Last Resort (Mega Lopunny and Komala) have ways to circumvent this. Lopunny just uses Fake Out and bam, instant physical Boomburst for it, while also chipping the foe at no cost. Komala, on the other hand, runs Choice Band with Sleep Talk which works due to Comatose, which'll fulfill the all moves used requirement before using LR in the same turn Sleep Talk is activated.
 
#86
The two main users of Last Resort (Mega Lopunny and Komala) have ways to circumvent this. Lopunny just uses Fake Out and bam, instant physical Boomburst for it, while also chipping the foe at no cost. Komala, on the other hand, runs Choice Band with Sleep Talk which works due to Comatose, which'll fulfill the all moves used requirement before using LR in the same turn Sleep Talk is activated.
Add ambipom to that list who also uses fake out
 
#87
I doubt last resort is broken due to the whole "requires another move" thing

However, the normal type's entire existence is... confusing; to say the least.
freekhoorn , that is my opinion, last resort by itself is fine, but something does need to be done about normal types, defensively and offensively. Just testing the waters for specific clauses or bans here, not saying this would be a good idea, but perhaps ban STAB normal type attacks? I don't know what to do for defensively, just use more giran and gengar I guess.
 
#88
The two main users of Last Resort (Mega Lopunny and Komala) have ways to circumvent this. Lopunny just uses Fake Out and bam, instant physical Boomburst for it, while also chipping the foe at no cost. Komala, on the other hand, runs Choice Band with Sleep Talk which works due to Comatose, which'll fulfill the all moves used requirement before using LR in the same turn Sleep Talk is activated.
Last Resort on Mega Lopun is a bad option because the opponent basically gets a free turn to switch to a counter on your weak fake out. Additionally, you don't get to use Mega Lopun's fighting STAB at all, which is quite significant considering HJK is almost as powerful as Last Resort itself (and, for example, you can't pressure things like Cress or Reuniclus). Ambipom with Last Resort isn't that great either.

Last Resort as a move is really only possibly broken on Komala, and a Komala ban would be far more logical than a Last Resort ban.

On Snorlax:

I don't know about everyone else but so far I have found Snorlax to be quite underwhelming. It's not resilient to entry hazards which means offensive teams will frequently get good opportunities to whittle it down before it's able to get rolling, and it's almost dead weight versus stall teams given the ubiquity of Tangrowth, Avalugg, Toxapex and even Articuno on occasion. If Snorlax invests in attack it is often not bulky enough to take many of the hits it needs to take to set up, while if it doesn't, it's often too weak to get the OHKO's it would like to get after one or two boosts. It's certainly still a very good Pokemon, but I don't believe it's broken.

Rather, there's another Pokemon which I believe is quite problematic in the metagame: Mega Beedrill.

Mega Beedrill is an interesting case in that it does have some pretty strong counters in Tangrowth, Celebi, and Avalugg, but I believe it's broken because of the ridiculous restrictions its U-turn forces onto offensive teams. Due to its immense speed, it can come in on most of the meta, and due to the ridiculous power of its U-turn, anything weak to bug or weakened at all without the best bulk (pretty much all the Pokemon you'll find on offensive teams) are required to switch out under threat of an OHKO, typically to something really passive like Tangrowth, to not incur a critical loss. And then the opponent still keeps his momentum going. It's a lose-lose situation. Almost all of my teams have had to use an offensive variant of Tangrowth and that's because without it bees will simply pick any offensive team apart.

Against stall Beedrill will typically not do as much, but what I believe makes it unhealthy is the fact that it mandates offensive or balance teams to pack fat momentum killing mons to deal with it and that as a result it really stifles teambuilding. The combination of insane speed and insane power alongside a momentum move boosted by adaptability makes it really unfair to play against.
 
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#89
Last Resort on Mega Lopun is a bad option because the opponent basically gets a free turn to switch to a counter on your weak fake out. Additionally, you don't get to use Mega Lopun's fighting STAB at all, which is quite significant considering HJK is almost as powerful as Last Resort itself (and, for example, you can't pressure things like Cress or Reuniclus). Ambipom with Last Resort isn't that great either.

Last Resort as a move is really only possibly broken on Komala, and a Komala ban would be far more logical than a Last Resort ban.

On Snorlax:

I don't know about everyone else but so far I have found Snorlax to be quite underwhelming. It's not resilient to entry hazards which means offensive teams will frequently get good opportunities to whittle it down before it's able to get rolling, and it's almost dead weight versus stall teams given the ubiquity of Tangrowth, Avalugg, Toxapex and even Articuno on occasion. If Snorlax invests in attack it is often not bulky enough to take many of the hits it needs to take to set up, while if it doesn't, it's often too weak to get the OHKO's it would like to get after one or two boosts. It's certainly still a very good Pokemon, but I don't believe it's broken.

Rather, there's another Pokemon which I believe is quite problematic in the metagame: Mega Beedrill.

Mega Beedrill is an interesting case in that it does have some pretty strong counters in Tangrowth, Celebi, and Avalugg, but I believe it's broken because of the ridiculous restrictions its U-turn forces onto offensive teams. Due to its immense speed, it can come in on most of the meta, and due to the ridiculous power of its U-turn, anything weak to bug or weakened at all without the best bulk (pretty much all the Pokemon you'll find on offensive teams) are required to switch out under threat of an OHKO, typically to something really passive like Tangrowth, to not incur a critical loss. And then the opponent still keeps his momentum going. It's a lose-lose situation. Almost all of my teams have had to use an offensive variant of Tangrowth and that's because without it bees will simply pick any offensive team apart.

Against stall Beedrill will typically not do as much, but what I believe makes it unhealthy is the fact that it mandates offensive or balance teams to pack fat momentum killing mons to deal with it and that as a result it really stifles teambuilding. The combination of insane speed and insane power alongside a momentum move boosted by adaptability makes it really unfair to play against.
I agree with most of this post, but I think that Beedrill's difficulties with stall are overstated. Even if you don't want to abuse all the switches to passive mons it forces by running toxic spikes, knock off and u-turn are a potent anti-defensive combinations. Removing items is extremely handy just for getting rip of that passive recovery or damage from leftovers / rocky helmet, to say nothing of eviolite, while being able to chip the foe and siltanously bring in your wallbreakers in on their perfect matchup is really handy for breaking down bulky teams.
 
#90
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Poison Jab's absurd poison chance. That's the main reason why stallers opt for Tangrowth, Celebi, Slowbro and Alomomola. As far as I know, these Pokemon are stall's only real viable solution when it comes to sustaining prolonged offensive pressure. It's way too fast for offense and balance teams to properly address, forcing eveyone to use Tangrowth.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a good Inverse player not using Tangrowth. Without having to parrot Klang and Quantum Tesseract, let me just say that Mega Beedrill is extremely unhealthy. It's as if it's Mega Genesect for crying out loud! Genesect was actually much easier to manage in OU compared to Inverse Beedrill. As far as I know, it's impossible to deny the points addressed by Klang, Quantum and myself; as such, I firmly believe Mega Beedrill should be banned.
 
#91
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Poison Jab's absurd poison chance. That's the main reason why stallers opt for Tangrowth, Celebi, Slowbro and Alomomola. As far as I know, these Pokemon are stall's only real viable solution when it comes to sustaining prolonged offensive pressure. It's way too fast for offense and balance teams to properly address, forcing eveyone to use Tangrowth.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a good Inverse player not using Tangrowth. Without having to parrot Klang and Quantum Tesseract, let me just say that Mega Beedrill is extremely unhealthy. It's as if it's Mega Genesect for crying out loud! Genesect was actually much easier to manage in OU compared to Inverse Beedrill. As far as I know, it's impossible to deny the points addressed by Klang, Quantum and myself; as such, I firmly believe Mega Beedrill should be banned.
Mega-Beedrill is one of many pokemon that breaks Inverse and is idiot-proof, but I've found that any Sturdy pokemon w/ decent offense is pretty much guaranteed to OHKO it. My Donphan has prompted many a rage quit.
 
#92
Mega Alakazam with Encore is still amazing. Energy Ball and Charge Beam (use with Koko support, it's piss weak without it) round out your coverage and netting a SpA boost will have you devastate just about everything. Beware Scarves and Breloom.
 

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