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Other Is Weather Still Viable?
- Thread starter Beast Mode
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I know. I was trying to illustrate the strength of Politoed's STAB attacks compared to other Pokemon in standard play.
Maybe a better comparison would be this: Politoed's Hydro Pump and Azumarill's Huge Power boosted Waterfall do around the same amount of damage, and Politoed almost always gets a rain boost on top of that. Admittedly Azumarill's coverage moves hit harder, though.
Maybe a better comparison would be this: Politoed's Hydro Pump and Azumarill's Huge Power boosted Waterfall do around the same amount of damage, and Politoed almost always gets a rain boost on top of that. Admittedly Azumarill's coverage moves hit harder, though.
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personally I think it depends on the tier on how it affects the game. Tiers like NU probably won't be effected by it too much as there were no weather starters in the first place, and judging from that ( I ran a very good sun team in Gen 5 nu) lower tiers won't be as affected by it.
also consider this, auto weather may still be banned to higher tiers and only be viable in uu/ou. Think about solar power zard and how good it was with good support, and give it auto weather (even nerfed) in say ru. Absolute nightmare.
also consider this, auto weather may still be banned to higher tiers and only be viable in uu/ou. Think about solar power zard and how good it was with good support, and give it auto weather (even nerfed) in say ru. Absolute nightmare.
I would Mega-Evolve Venusaur as the Sun runs out, or just run a regular Saur.
Heliolisk takes quite the blow from these weather changes - as all of its abilities are related to weather.
Exca being moved back to OU could definitely level the playing field. Weather is still viable, but things like Politoed will miss their past viable items...is it worth wasting a slot for a bit more of a climate change?
Exca being moved back to OU could definitely level the playing field. Weather is still viable, but things like Politoed will miss their past viable items...is it worth wasting a slot for a bit more of a climate change?
Solar power heliolisk hasn't been released yet
but once it has, I'll use it. Chlorophyll Venusaur is still probably better than mega for the purpose of sun teams. As for MegaDoom, I prefer Charizard as both mega evo's are easier to work with (if SR is out of the way) but I'll admit if Doom gets the right support, he's a nightmare.I foresee some weather teams running two weather starters from now on just for the easier switches and less requirement on keeping it alive at all costs.
some may even choose to eat their mega slot for sun teams for mega zard to keep weather going with ninetales.
or in the case of sand teams, some will probably run t-tar and hippodon to keep weather momentum.
some may even choose to eat their mega slot for sun teams for mega zard to keep weather going with ninetales.
or in the case of sand teams, some will probably run t-tar and hippodon to keep weather momentum.
You're going to see more weather cores than you are weather teams. Having a whole team that depends on their weather for effectiveness is not reliable. Especially since if you want Rain or Sun you'll still have to worry about Tyranitar because while it's not necessarily a weather war, Tyranitar is fantastic enough to use by itself. But really, Char Y and Venusaur are a natural pairing and a great core. You don't even need the rest of your team to be Sun dependent. Claydol or Excadrill make a great Rapid Spinner in the Sun since it helps with their Water weakness, and Excadrill is great anyway. And again have you tried a Klefki/Kingdra combo? You don't even need Politoed. Klefki providing screens and Rain for Kingdra who can then immediately go to work with Specs or begin Dragon Dancing safely. Devastating.
Meh, politoed has its uses, I run kingdra too but poli makes it easier to set up rain. Unfortunately while I tried replacing poli with klefki, it didn't work for my team because I usually got set up on before I could start rain back up
I have used it in teams WITH poli though to help set it up against grass types that try to predict the switch
besides, poli has the function of being able to force a definite switch if u run perish song.
trollitoed for the win!
I have used it in teams WITH poli though to help set it up against grass types that try to predict the switch
besides, poli has the function of being able to force a definite switch if u run perish song.
trollitoed for the win!
Ok, so here's a good one:
Amoonguss @ Damp Rock
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Rain Dance
- Spore
This thing is very good at setting up rain, and living to do it later. Clear smog could be replaced with stun spore, but my current team has no phazing moves. Spore is sneaky and useful, and giga drain is surprisingly good at prolonging its life span.
Amoonguss @ Damp Rock
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Rain Dance
- Spore
This thing is very good at setting up rain, and living to do it later. Clear smog could be replaced with stun spore, but my current team has no phazing moves. Spore is sneaky and useful, and giga drain is surprisingly good at prolonging its life span.
Weather is not lost, it's just different. You can't run a long game very easily with it anymore, but it CAN be quite destructive. I've actually gotten pretty good success with the following as compliments to a team rather than as Sunny Day as the focus of the team:
Human Centapede (Scolipede) (F) @ Heat Rock/Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SDef
Careful Nature
- Sunny Day
- Protect
- Megahorn
- Baton Pass
Ten Tails (Venusaur) (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 180 Spd
Naive Nature
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Scolipede is sent out on something that I feel comfortable with him facing and throws up a sunny day on the switch/tanked hit (Which often surprises the enemy, as they usually expect a Swords Dance to Physical threat). Follow up with a Protect to build up speed before Batton Passing to Venusaur. The combination of Chlorophyll and the x2 speed boost by that point means nothing short of a priority move is going to outrun Venusaur, and then you can Growth in the sun to end up having doubled Special Attack and Quadrupled Speed between Speed Boost and Cholorophyll, or if you feel that you still can't 1 shot them and need the bulk, you can Mega Evolve and be able to tank hits while still running fast compared to other major threats due to the double Speed Boost.
Quick questions: Do the new Field type moves count as weather/cancel other weather? Why aren't we talking more about those as well (even though the original 4 are much more developed)?
Human Centapede (Scolipede) (F) @ Heat Rock/Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SDef
Careful Nature
- Sunny Day
- Protect
- Megahorn
- Baton Pass
Ten Tails (Venusaur) (F) @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 180 Spd
Naive Nature
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Scolipede is sent out on something that I feel comfortable with him facing and throws up a sunny day on the switch/tanked hit (Which often surprises the enemy, as they usually expect a Swords Dance to Physical threat). Follow up with a Protect to build up speed before Batton Passing to Venusaur. The combination of Chlorophyll and the x2 speed boost by that point means nothing short of a priority move is going to outrun Venusaur, and then you can Growth in the sun to end up having doubled Special Attack and Quadrupled Speed between Speed Boost and Cholorophyll, or if you feel that you still can't 1 shot them and need the bulk, you can Mega Evolve and be able to tank hits while still running fast compared to other major threats due to the double Speed Boost.
Quick questions: Do the new Field type moves count as weather/cancel other weather? Why aren't we talking more about those as well (even though the original 4 are much more developed)?
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terrain moves (like grassy terrain), room moves (like trick room), and weather moves (like sandstorm) all operate independently as far as I know. I've seen people try using grassy terrain+sun to make grass types like tangrowth invinsible, or rain + electric terrain to make electric types like mega ampharos heavy hitters, but the set up and limited time span makes it hard to pull off
tyranitar/sand is still amazing on stall teams. Gives extra defense to your sand people, tyranitar gets SR, residual damage from it, not much to dislike. I think it is the best weather now for teams in general.
Sun/Rain is good for slowing down the damage of their counterpart still, the only users really seen are politoed and mega charizard Y. not as prominent
hail still sucks
Sun/Rain is good for slowing down the damage of their counterpart still, the only users really seen are politoed and mega charizard Y. not as prominent
hail still sucks
Yes, weather is still very much viable. It did take a huge hit support-wise since it doesn't last forever anymore, but 5 or 8 turns is still plenty of time to get stuff done.
Rain: Choice Specs/Scarf Politoed are exactly the same (other than the obvious fact that the weather dies off after 5 turns). Five turns is way more than enough for revenge killing (scarf) or wallbreaking (specs). Damp Rock and a supporting set works as well. You can bring in a Swift Swimmer and still have several turns to wreak havoc, assuming the Drizzle+Swift Swim combo isn't banned.
Sun: Ninetales is still a mediocre weather inducer, and can't do much with sun by itself. It's still an okay option if you really want Heat Rock and Drought on the same set, but for the most part Mega Charizard Y poses more of a threat with the sun it sets up (yeah, SR).
Sand: Sand has plenty of new toys such as Mega T-tar, Assault Vest T-tar, and Mega Garchomp. Hippowdon is still a great choice since it eats up physical hits like they're nothing while it sets up rocks and phazes you out.
Hail: No more stalling entire teams out with Walrein :( lol. There's Mega Abomasnow, and Aurorus... but honestly, hail still seems pretty mediocre.
Overall, weather is still great for offensive purposes. All forms of weather stalling took a major hit, which to me is a bit of a relief. Like Jaroda said above, weather cores of 2 or 3 pokemon are pretty effective, as opposed to entire teams based around weather.
Rain: Choice Specs/Scarf Politoed are exactly the same (other than the obvious fact that the weather dies off after 5 turns). Five turns is way more than enough for revenge killing (scarf) or wallbreaking (specs). Damp Rock and a supporting set works as well. You can bring in a Swift Swimmer and still have several turns to wreak havoc, assuming the Drizzle+Swift Swim combo isn't banned.
Sun: Ninetales is still a mediocre weather inducer, and can't do much with sun by itself. It's still an okay option if you really want Heat Rock and Drought on the same set, but for the most part Mega Charizard Y poses more of a threat with the sun it sets up (yeah, SR).
Sand: Sand has plenty of new toys such as Mega T-tar, Assault Vest T-tar, and Mega Garchomp. Hippowdon is still a great choice since it eats up physical hits like they're nothing while it sets up rocks and phazes you out.
Hail: No more stalling entire teams out with Walrein :( lol. There's Mega Abomasnow, and Aurorus... but honestly, hail still seems pretty mediocre.
Overall, weather is still great for offensive purposes. All forms of weather stalling took a major hit, which to me is a bit of a relief. Like Jaroda said above, weather cores of 2 or 3 pokemon are pretty effective, as opposed to entire teams based around weather.
I'm finding ninetales to still be useable. It's definitely not the best fire type you could be using in OU but base 100 speed lets it willowisp many things, especially adamant kangaskhan, and sun boosted fireblast is great. Solar beam for rotom-w leads. It can also take exactly one hit from enough things, like genesect, gengar, and scizor, to be able to check/revenge (then die) in the middle of the match while setting up sun for the late game. I don't know if I would say ninetales is good, or even OU, but it's perfectly viable. In my opinion you need a timid ninetales that can check as many things as possible out there with fireblast/solarbeam/willowisp/hypnosis.
I'm not sure why sand having a 5 turn duration means anything for rain or sun teams. it still cancels your rain, and it's not like sand going away after 5 turns means your rain comes back. it still has the exact same effect as before against weather teams; you now have to set up weather again.
Similar to suicide leading with stealth rock, is there any additional merit to the suicide setup weather pokemon now, especially since there are lots of new pokemon who can destroy with the support? This sort of two-pokemon setup fits with the new idea of just having a weather core as opposed to a weather team, and I imagine it will be much more dynamic due to the ability to pull out this suicide setup at any point in the match rather than leading with it.
For instance I've been toying with the idea of this Jumpluff:
Jumpluff @ Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
-Sunny Day
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
-U-Turn
Pretty much the same as any other double powder set, except Jumpluff is the fastest user (boosted to unrivalled speed with chlorophyll) and also gets to set up a Sunny Day for a pokemon such as CharX who can then start destroying an already crippled team. This Jumpluff uses the speed boost from its own Sunny Day to ensure it can outspeed and use its double powders before handing over to the powerful sun sweeper. U-turn can be used after the sleep powder instead of stun spore so you can keep momentum as they inevitably switch.
The pairing is effective as Jumpluff will happily eat resisted water type attacks from choice band azumarill (20-24% from CB aqua jet and 40-48% from CB waterfall), outspeeding it and putting it to sleep after taking a hit. Similarly he outspeeds the other two pokemon who resist CharX STABS, Heatran and Carbink. Both are slower than Jumpluff and cannot use priority to take out its last 1hp so will be slept. Jumpluff also avoids all ground type moves aimed at CharX and can survive a stone edge from hippowdon + prior stealth rock damage as long as it doesnt crit.
Anyways, I guess what Im asking is- are the new weather threats of this generation powerful enough to warrant dedicating a pokemon to manually setting up weather for them? Auto-weather inducers like politoed and CharY seem to work good still, but to me they almost feel like they set up weather for their own attacks rather than as team support.
For instance I've been toying with the idea of this Jumpluff:
Jumpluff @ Focus Sash
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Speed
Jolly Nature
-Sunny Day
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
-U-Turn
Pretty much the same as any other double powder set, except Jumpluff is the fastest user (boosted to unrivalled speed with chlorophyll) and also gets to set up a Sunny Day for a pokemon such as CharX who can then start destroying an already crippled team. This Jumpluff uses the speed boost from its own Sunny Day to ensure it can outspeed and use its double powders before handing over to the powerful sun sweeper. U-turn can be used after the sleep powder instead of stun spore so you can keep momentum as they inevitably switch.
The pairing is effective as Jumpluff will happily eat resisted water type attacks from choice band azumarill (20-24% from CB aqua jet and 40-48% from CB waterfall), outspeeding it and putting it to sleep after taking a hit. Similarly he outspeeds the other two pokemon who resist CharX STABS, Heatran and Carbink. Both are slower than Jumpluff and cannot use priority to take out its last 1hp so will be slept. Jumpluff also avoids all ground type moves aimed at CharX and can survive a stone edge from hippowdon + prior stealth rock damage as long as it doesnt crit.
Anyways, I guess what Im asking is- are the new weather threats of this generation powerful enough to warrant dedicating a pokemon to manually setting up weather for them? Auto-weather inducers like politoed and CharY seem to work good still, but to me they almost feel like they set up weather for their own attacks rather than as team support.
I think You'd have better luck with a prankster whimsicott set using stun spore first, then sunny day, and if you survive, you can hopefully switch out with uturn after the speed drop and get to your sun sweeper, but I like the idea of having sun right off the bat to eliminate the biggest threats, but I'd do some messing around first as jumpluff should be scared of ferrothorn and most anti leads and the suicide weather setter is vulnerable to SR set up which endangers your chosen sweeper. Not saying it won't work, but you'll need to find answers to those those threats before this core becomes viable
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How exactly did Abomasnow "loses its anti-weather" utility? Snow Warning still cancels any weather in use and replaces it with Hail. That's exactly what it did in previous generations. When the Snow Warning wears off, the old weather won't pick back up unless it's restarted. And if you're arguing that the other team can restart it, why couldn't you just send Abomasnow back out? Abomasnow works fine for "anti-weather". It just doesn't work for "perma-hail".
Saying it lost its utility is a little extreme, but with weather not lasting as long, the better choice will usually be to wait it out or take out the setter and abuser. Since most teams that rely on weather will have multiple setters, it won't be that hard for them to reset and keeping him around just to switch in every time they reset is tiresome when abasnow's victory is short lived. Basically it's not that abasnow's less effective, it's that it's less valuable
But would you rather not make them waste a turn in setting their weather again instead of being crushed by Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. Lol, you say Abomasnow's victory is short-lived, but so is their victory. And last time I checked, Abomasnow hurts common weather abusers so setting up the weather is not that easy.
One of the common misconceptions is that Abomasnow is the anti-weather Pokémon, it's not, Hippowdon is.
And don't make me rant about it.
One of the common misconceptions is that Abomasnow is the anti-weather Pokémon, it's not, Hippowdon is.
And don't make me rant about it.
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Sorry, I messed up my message a little bit. My point was that the emphasis shouldn't be on taking out the weather as opposed to the setters. Abamasnow can take out politoed, sand streamers, and some rain dancers, but what good is breaking a venusaur's chlorophyll if they'll hp fire you or just switch MegaZardY back in and threaten to kill you with fire blast, or worse, predict the switch and roost, extending their ability to keep the sun shining? Abamasnow's a decent check to rain, but teams that utilize the other 2 will hardly notice snow warning's effect, and hippowdon isn't much better with it being weak to hydro pump and solar beam. Basically, anti weather is dead. Focus instead on anti weather setter.
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