Israel General Thread

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THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
Recently Israel annexed the Golan Heights. I believe they did it for strategic reasons; Syria would probably use the altitude of the Golan Heights as a high-ground to launch artillery strikes at Israel. I cant say I blame them for occupying it against international law, honestly.

I understand that Israel is occupying Palestinian land but everyone of their neighbors wants to annihilate them from the planet, so again, I dont really know how much I can blame them for doing this. Hamas does use children as shields, after all. Not to mention they let themselves be dictated by a bronze age fairy tale.

I think Im generally pro Israel. Im a guy who likes the idea of workers owning their businesses, but Im also a big fan of Jews owning their future. Its perplexing to even think that an ethnostate would ever be moral in any case, but for Jews I think it is, considering their history over 2000 years and everyone trying to kill them for no reason, and still doing so to this day.

I dont have a 2 state solution per se, more of a three state solution. We have Jordan annex the West Bank and have Egypt annex the Gaza Strip, and put and end to this once and for all by having the Palestinians live in countries that arent in conflict with them value wise. A 3 state solution.

So what do you guys think about Israel and their affairs? Whats your take?
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Recently Israel annexed the Golan Heights
1967 (the six day war) and 1981 (the more formal annexation) aren’t recent.

The only thing new here is trump recognizing what was already the reality, but condemned by the international community, as all annexations generally should be.

But at this point it had been decades and it’s a politically opportune time to say “Hey we WISH we could give it back but, yo, Syria is crazy.”

The rest of the OP also has issues, but I can’t get into all of it now.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I'm the type of user who is all about bipartisanship/dialogue/compromise which is why I feel like this is an important discussion that can lead to smogon users coming out of their respective bubbles of recent threads separately devoted to discussions of parties' primary candidates
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
So do you have anything to say about Israel or not, Myzozoa? Because Im seeing a lot of flat out forum trolling from you right now and Id really like you to be sincere for once in this thread. I know, for absolute certain, that you dont think that Manifest Destiny applies to the Israeli settlement of Palestine.
 
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So what do you guys think about Israel and their affairs? Whats your take?
I'll bite, here's my take: Israel is an apartheid state that is built on ethnic cleansing of local Arabs by European settlers. The colonial violence is still continuing, as we see from accelerating settlements & land grabs in the West Bank and the suppression of any and all protests by reckless force, including live gunfire against civillians and healthcare personnel, to intimidate the locals into submission

http://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf

Colonisation carries its own explanation, the only possible explanation, unalterable and as clear as daylight to every ordinary Jew and every ordinary Arab. Colonisation can have only one aim, and Palestine Arabs cannot accept this aim. It lies in the very nature of things, and in this particular regard nature cannot be changed.

We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism.

Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach. That is our Arab policy; not what we should be, but what it actually is, whether we admit it or not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky

This bloke was one of the leading thinkers of secular Zionism and the precursor to today's Israeli right wing. There's a national holiday after him lol, need I say more

Next question pls
 
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel/palestine pretty much sums things up.

Also PragerU is a right-wing propaganda channel and you should definitely take everything from there with a grain of salt and actually look at any studies referenced there and analyse it before taking it as gospel.
Your source doesn't seem much better mate, but let me give you an actual brief response. I think it's more than fair to defend yourself from terrorism, which is something they have dealt with since their inception. It's pretty hard to deal with countries that want your complete and utter destruction. Don't construe this though, I am not saying all Palestinians are terrorists, far from that, but unfortunately within the Gaza Strip there is a pretty dangerous terrorist network on the inside, hence the major reason why they are limiting water and electricity. As for the tear gas, rocks were hurled at Israli soldiers first, so it's very hard to paint them as the victims when they were the provokators. There is a large arab population within Israel that's not treated with tyranny, I can't say the same if Israel was a full blown arab country (and don't take my word for it, look at the rest of the mess we call the middle east, there's so many human rights violations that it's not even funny).
 
Your source doesn't seem much better mate, but let me give you an actual brief response. I think it's more than fair to defend yourself from terrorism, which is something they have dealt with since their inception. It's pretty hard to deal with countries that want your complete and utter destruction. Don't construe this though, I am not saying all Palestinians are terrorists, far from that, but unfortunately within the Gaza Strip there is a pretty dangerous terrorist network on the inside, hence the major reason why they are limiting water and electricity. As for the tear gas, rocks were hurled at Israli soldiers first, so it's very hard to paint them as the victims when they were the provokators. There is a large arab population within Israel that's not treated with tyranny, I can't say the same if Israel was a full blown arab country (and don't take my word for it, look at the rest of the mess we call the middle east, there's so many human rights violations that it's not even funny).
If they only used tear gas, cool, but they shot and killed some of those Palestinian demonstrators for throwing rocks, and why shouldn't they? first of all: they're fucking rocks not ICBMs, second of all: they are tired of their situation and nobody seems to be listening. Israel and Palestine were actually very close to reconciling in the 90s, (google "Oslo Accords") and the Israeli's assassinated their PM for signing it, which prompted the recent far-right rise to power in the form of Benyamin Netanyahu and friends. The problem with trying to assign blame to one side or the other in this conflict, is that it's been going on for a very long time and it's hard to discern what is reactionary and what is unprovoked (one could argue that it is all reactionary). In regards to the Gaza Strip, committing large-scale human rights abuses and denial of basic needs for survival in an effort to choke out a small group of terrorists (who only have small arms, possible light artillery at best) is beyond abhorrent. Israel has arguably the best intelligence agency in the world, behind maybe the KGB, Pakistan and our own CIA, they could easily conduct small scale intelligence operations on targets rather than starve and abuse an entire population.

There is a large arab population within Israel that's not treated with tyranny, I can't say the same if Israel was a full blown arab country (and don't take my word for it, look at the rest of the mess we call the middle east, there's so many human rights violations that it's not even funny).

There is a large non-white population in America that isn't treated with tyranny, but they aren't treated equally either. There is a gray area for the Arabs in Israel where they are legally equal, but still have to deal with discrimination on a daily basis. And yes, the Middle East is rife with human rights abuses. Our (America's) second biggest ally in the region funds the same terrorist organizations we've been fighting for the last nearly two decades. They have public beheadings and as recently as 2018 (or 2017, can't remember) allowed women to drive. I don't like our alliance with them either. This point also doesn't take into account that this wave of theocratic rule is relatively new, as recently as the late 70s, the middle east was much more liberal, women could dress freely, people could practice other religions (ymmv), terrorism wasn't an everyday event. This is all relatively new, and largely due to our own meddling in their affairs.

some more sources since hrw isn't your flavor:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ (amnesty international)

https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22617&LangID=E (UN)

https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20190117_2018_fatalities (Israeli non-profit)
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think the best solution would involve just moving Israel. they did it 70 years ago, no reason they can't do it do it again.

Hear me out here.

The Israel problem hinges on the Catch-22 so elegantly described by various posters wherein they have no choice but to defend themselves from hostile neighbors 24x7. This is I imagine very stressful, and there appears to be no end in sight, because after all Hamas hides behind kids what can you do. TIK's solution isn't adequate because even if Jordan and Egypt annex West Bank and the Strip there's no reason they'll stop hating jews. If anything it is likely that they can and will covertly sponsor the existing terrorist infrastructure plaguing Israel. So now Israel is left dealing with the same problem, except bigger, because terror outfits like Hamas are now better armed, better trained and infinitely better funded, not to mention that unlike Palestine these two are powerful, wealthy nations with major geopolitical pull and BIG armies. So you can't just randomly bomb them back and shit.

So instead, I propose that Israel be relocated to the great US state of Wyoming. A quick google search tells me Israel takes up some 20,000 sq km of real estate. Wyoming is over 250x larger and most of it is basically empty. Like when was the last time you met someone from Wyoming? Sure, it isn't the most exciting place to move to but at least it beats living on a patch desert surrounded by sweaty brown neighbors who want to annihilate you from the planet. They are some 7-8 million people so a medium-sized metropolis or two with a couple of smaller suburban towns thrown in should be enough to accommodate them all.

Where will the Money to build all this come from you ask? See, it's no problem. Israel is already fabulously rich to begin with. As a highly developed $400 billion strong economy (in fact the 20th largest in the world! spectacular considering it's small size) they should have no problem footing most of the bill and I'm pretty sure the wealthy, and well-connected jewish diaspora living in the states will also generously contribute to secure the futures of their own ethnic kin. The USA, being its biggest ally with a Israel-friendly regime currently in power they could also graciously help with the move and won't have to spend one extra penny. They can just redirect the existing aid they give Israel anyways, (which totals up annually to $3.3 billion as of 2018 and only set to rise) and unlike before all the money stays within the US economy!

This is a truly America first solution the President Trump would be proud of. Real estate is the President's forte so such a move should be right up his backyard as opposed to dealing with the byzantine complexities of internal realpolitik. Plus he has the capable Harvard educated, (and ethnically appropriate) Jared Kushner to broker all the fine details. It's perfect. This way he gets to fulfill his ridiculous promise to bring back all the lost jobs in the Mid-west (with a couple of hundred million extra to boot) which will be needed to build and run these towns and cities. Wyoming will most likely go from a useless fucking place to the third major centre of the US economy, to be built up and sustained by a well educated, and highly skilled jewish population. These aren't illiterate, jobless refugees from shithole countries looking to suck of uncle sam's titty for free so Tucker Carlson should be fine with this. Democrats are cucked because lol, they can't really stand against refugees so Bernie Sanders and AOC can go fuck themselves and Trump wins 2020 guaranteed.

It's an ultra-win-win-win solution.

Right now I can already hear you all saying, "But, but Soul Fly! Israel's location is very important, and it has tremendous religious and cultural significance to the Jews! Surely you must understand!"

Dear fellow I sympathize completely with your passionate, well meaning interjection. In fact I understand that for many in the community the great land of Jerusalem is where God himself lives. But as the hebrew quote goes: “The purpose of the creation of every Jew and of all the worlds is to make a dwelling place for God in this world.”. This quote from Tanya teaches us that the reason why God made each Jew and why He created the whole world is so that by following the Torah and mitzvot the jewish community can make their homes and the world around them, a dwelling place for God where He will live, just as they live in their own homes. So metaphorically speaking God is wherever the Jew earnestly plants his roots and welcomes god to come and dwell.

I believe that still won't be enough for some people, for there are some who probably literally believe Israel absolutely has to be where it exists currently. But do we have tome to indulge the whims of people let themselves be dictated by a bronze age fairy tale?


--
So to sum up:
Pros: Palestinian Crisis Solved, US economy revitalized - can now possibly reduce debt, and compete with China and India, financial aid and weapons technology proliferation in the the volatile middle east completely eliminated, hundreds of millions of new jobs and a supercharged economy in the US midwest, the country gains a couple of million of highly educated, wealthy, extremely skilled pro-capitalist population who are compatible with the great European culture of freedom. All in exchange for some spare land in Wyoming no one was using anyways.

cons: none that I can see.
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
So do you have anything to say about Israel or not, Myzozoa? Because Im seeing a lot of flat out forum trolling from you right now and Id really like you to be sincere for once in this thread. I know, for absolute certain, that you dont think that Manifest Destiny applies to the Israeli settlement of Palestine.
aren't you aware of the rich historical connection between USA and Israel? how can you not see that Israel is part of our manifest destiny, as they say in America "from sea to shining sea" in Israel they say "from the river to the sea". The USA will have that oil yet, I see right through your 3 state solution TIK, you want the corporate BRITISH Petroluem to get that oil, but I am an "America First" male myself and will not allow the region to succumb to the designs given by the current status quo
 

internet

getting paid to moderate
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Moderator
what if we did the soul fly solution but instead along the USA-mexico border so trump can have his wall and eat it too
 

THE_IRON_...KENYAN?

Banned deucer.
aren't you aware of the rich historical connection between USA and Israel? how can you not see that Israel is part of our manifest destiny, as they say in America "from sea to shining sea" in Israel they say "from the river to the sea". The USA will have that oil yet, I see right through your 3 state solution TIK, you want the corporate BRITISH Petroluem to get that oil, but I am an "America First" male myself and will not allow the region to succumb to the designs given by the current status quo
Consider yourself on the "do not reply" list, troll
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
I can’t tell if that’s a shitpost or pathetically sincere.

I don’t know enough of the nuances of the situation to add any rhetorical weight into this thread but I know enough to know that most everyone else in this thread knows less than I do and should stop putzing around deciding how complex geopolitical situations should be solved and who should “lose” or “win.”


Wait hang on I do have one contribution though, there’s an Israeli woman who ran a taylor swift fan account who went to prison because She refused to serve in the IDF because of how her country was treating the Palestinian people. She ended up having a girlfriend in prison and was nicknamed “Sweaters and Communism.” I like her she seems cool.
 
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