itt: Entry Hazards (NU version)

marilli

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with permission from tennisace.

Hazards. Well, I really don’t think they need any introduction, or do I? If someone claimed hazards are the soul of competitive Pokemon, I would not even disagree. This holds true for a tier that is especially lacking in Rapid Spinners! This thread is dedicated to everything related to hazards: great hazard platforms, spinners, or even Pokemon that work especially well with hazards! I’ll edit in some basic information on the OP, but really this is not a thread that’s intended for reading. It’s for you guys to get out there and discuss!

Entry Hazard Users:

Stealth Rock: The quintessential hazard. Takes off a sliver of health regardless of its typing, which is pretty cool. Offensive teams need it to turn guarantee 2HKOs or OHKOs. Defensive teams need it to deal extra damage on the switch.


Mesprit: It deserves the usage it gets. Great physical and special defense, and enough offensive presence and coverage to earn the free turn to set up SR. SubCM and other offensive sets are immediately threatening, so opponent has to respond seriously from the get-go. Unique typing for a SR user, too. Psychic and BoltBeam means that it gets all coverage it ever wants. Also has access to Thunder Wave to cripple switches. What could you ask more?


Rhydon: I’m lazy so I’m rolling in other similar Rock-types in this one. This includes Golem, Armaldo, Cradily, etc. Great physical offenses, and really, Edgequake is hard to wall in NU unless you’re utilizing a bulky Water-type or a dominant physical wall such as Leafeon or Tangela. Cradily’s special in that it can counter Water-types with Storm Drain. All of them have great physical bulk as well. Note that Rhydon will leave coming January.


Miltank: Great mon defensively and offensively. Curse set needs immediate response, and early SR is nearly guaranteed thanks to its all-around bulk. It has other great support options in Heal Bell as well. It has three great abilities in Sap Sipper, Thick Fat, and Scrappy. While Scrappy is the best for offensive curse sets, defensive sets really appreciate the extra resistances that Thick Fat bring into play. With Thick Fat, Miltank can also act as a shaky check against BlizzSpam.


Camerupt: Added again due to feedback from multiple people. So basically this thing has Roar along with SR. Its statistical bulk isn’t exactly anything to write home about, and it does have notable weaknesses to water and ground. Still, Solid Rock is a great, Lava Plume’s burn chance is good, and it beats special threats like Magneton, Eeleectross, Rotom-S, Misdreavus, Magmortar, etc. Its STAB coverage is enough to give enough presence offensively.

Spikes:


Roselia: The standard choice for a defensive Spiker. Great special defense and the right typing to set up on Water, Electric, or Grass types. Folds to any strong physical STAB, but hey, can’t have everything, right? Natural Cure’d Rest or Synthesis are both great recovery moves. It has Toxic Spikes as well. Its offensive capabilities are pretty mediocre, though. It also has other supportive options in Leech Seed and Sleep Powder, but that really goes against the whole point of using Roselia because that disallows Spikes due to legality issues! I've heard Heysup trying to promote a 252 hp /252 modest spread with sleep powder and leaf storm, so you shouldn't let your guard against it =p


Scolipede: The standard choice for an offensive Spiker. Great speed, and Megahorn hurts with STAB. Often leads in order to get quick spikes to lead off the game and put on the pressure. Earthquake and Rock Slide rounds off his coverage rather nicely, and he can run a single spikes set with 3 coverage as well. With Swords Dance, he can really be an offensive threat as well, but really hazards are worth it in NU. It has Toxic Spikes as well and most sets will have both hazards. Note that he will leave NU come January.


Cacturne: Interesting Anti-Metagame choice. Threatens waters, and completely walls Slowking unless it has Fire Blast. It has physical power and some staying power, making it ideal for balanced teams that run off bulk and resistances. Pretty slow and frail, but has Sucker Punch to make up for that versus offensive teams. Encore, Focus Punch, etc. he has lots of gimmicky options as well and an interesting choice overall. However, note that he'll be hard pressed to ever survive a strong neutral STAB or a random U-turn.


Smeargle: A great lead with Spore, SR, and Spikes. It can also threaten a baton pass set, but with Smashpass banned, those are not that common. Still, it's able to pass Shift Gear or Quiver Dance, so don't always assume that it's a hazard-based set. Still, Hazard Smeargle is really good, and is the most common set for a reason. Really, it’s impossible to stop this from getting SR and a layer up unless you’re especially prepared for this beast. It's lack of general stats is the only thing that holds it back. Just hit it hard, and it should go die pretty soon. Oh, and Magic Coat & Whirlwind is pretty good too as it prevents setups, but you need good prediction.

Glalie, Garbador, Whirlepede are lesser explored options.

Toxic Spikes: I’d go into more depth, but our top 2 Tspikers are up there already, and seriously Tspikes tend to suck in lower metagames with lots of Poison types to absorb them.

Rapid Spinners:


Armaldo: Already mentioned for its ability to set up SR, but it's also an amazing spinner. It has Swords Dance as an option, and has actual offenses to scare out Frillish, Misdreavus, and other Ghost-types with its STAB Stone Edge. Being weak to SR sucks as a spinner, though. Stone Edge, Earthquake, and X-Scissor give good coverage and Armaldo hits hard enough to differentiate itself from the below weaksauce spinners.


Cryogonal: The specially defensive spinner. Again, it's weak to SR, and that's why it's still NU. It can beat most ghosts 1 vs. 1 as they tend to be special, and Cryogonal can just stall them out with Toxic. Immune to Spikes and Tspikes as well, which is a big plus. It has okay offenses and can really work well in hail, while acting as a check against opposing BlizzSpam. However, do note that Snover is highly likely to be leaving the NU tier come January.


Torkoal: Again, spinner weak to SR. Defensive Fire-types come in pretty rare, but they end up being rather useless anyways. It loses to most Ghost-types 1 vs 1 because it has shitty offenses, and its defensive capability isn't really anything to write home about. Still better than not having a spinner, and can both SR and Spin on the same set. Weak to all hazards, Torkoal will struggle to spin away hazards for multiple times a game.


Wartortle: Finally, Wartortle. It has middling bulk but decent typing, and is the only spinner in NU that is not weak to SR! However, it has no recovery whatsoever, so switching in once in a while and spinning should just kill Wartortle after a while. Oh, and did I mention, Wartortle literally can’t kill anything because its offenses suck even more than Torkoal. I’d like to repeat that it really does suck majorly.

Other options include Staryu and... Delibird ? =(

Oh and spinda. Right.

Spin Blockers:


Misdreavus: Missy is the best balanced spinblocker around. Thanks to its previous fully evolved status, it has okay stats even without eviolite. With Eviolite, its special bulk is massive, and Levitate + Ghost-type + Will-O-Wisp really helps physically. On the offensive, its Shadow Balls aren’t that weak, and you can certainly try a SubCM set. Did I mention Taunt + Will-O-Wisp gives trouble to defensive teams? It has Pain Split for not so reliable recovery, but really it works fine with just pain split. It also has other niche support moves such as Heal Bell.



Haunter: Haunter is the better offensive spinblocker. Haunter has great base 95 speed and base 115 special attack. STAB Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb are hard to wall unless you’re a steel type. Of course, all steels bar Klinklang get 4x hit by Hidden Power Ground, so not like that really matters. Its main problem as a spinblocker is that Haunter is way to frail and a single misprediction will cost Haunter’s life. Also, 95 base speed is fast, but not fast enough for an offensive pokemon.

Other options include… Frillish? It’ll see more use come January, when both Slowking and Lanturn are expected to leave NU. This leaves Frillish and Mantine as the top specially defensive bulky Water-types.

Things that are good with Hazards:

I'll just add the most obvious one.


Swellow: I really don’t know why this wasn’t RU earlier, because it kicks so much ass. Super fast, super strong, and limited counters. You just U-turn early game to wear down the Rock-type counter with spikes, and you’re good to go. It's too bad that Swellow is most definitely going to leave NU come January unless miracle happens.

So go ahead and discuss! I'll gladly add anything on the OP.
 
1. Maybe add a section for spinblockers?
2. Take off Camerupt. Not only do I see it very rarely (Id say 1/100 matches, maybe less), I've never seen it do anything but get rocks up, as it pretty much always dies the next turn.
 

jake

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Hey, Camerupt is fantastic. Yes, it has two huge weaknesses to Ground-type and Water-type moves but if you leave it in on those then you're using it wrong.... I've had Camerupt survive an entire match to continuously phaze away the opponent and rack up hazard damage. Also you're kinda limited on spinblockers: you got Misdreavus, then... Frillish? Haunter?

also: SMEEEEARGLE
 

breh

強いだね
camerupt is not a good setter of rocks; don't use it to set rocks. use it to sweep.

for a (currently hypothetical) spinblockers section, please only put misdreavus; it's the only good one anyway.

don't include wartortle at all; it's weak and all it does is sit there. Armaldo hits hard, torkoal at least has decent SpA, and cryo has good offense in hail (and an ok 95 bp STAB outside of it).

cacturne also usually survives mesprit u-turns.
 
Yup. I would mention Regirock as well as Pinsir. Regirock tanks Swellow's Facade all day and I think BB too. I remember my Rhydon can't take Swellow that well. Pinsir's offensive capabilities should not be underestimated. People always expect a Choice Pinsir, forcing a switch. That's when he can set up.

Yeah spinblocker too. IMO, Misdreavus does her job best but struggles against some walls. Haunter has a low HP and high SpA and therefore he can utilize Pain Split to its fullest and knock down walls with his STAB when they are low health. Thats how I interpret anyhow. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
 

tennisace

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camerupt is not a good setter of rocks; don't use it to set rocks. use it to sweep.
Tell that to my/zebraiken's top 10 teams. Not trying to be a dick but Camerupt is great at setting up SR since it beats a lot of common threats and gets free turns with Roar. Also it easily beats Torkoal, Magmortar, Ninjask, Misdreavus, some Rotom-S variants, Eelektross, etc etc etc. Solid Rock is a really great ability because the best something like Armaldo can do is an unboosted EQ and pray they don't get burned! The only knock it has is the lack of reliable healing.
 
Agreeing that Regirock should be added under the SR section, or at least have a mention. Also, I don't think saying Rhydon will be leaving soon next tier change is appropriate. We don't know what will move up or down. (Although some are pretty much confirmed from how much their usage boosted up or fell down) I think saying "There is a good possibility it'll move up to RU" or something of the like would be better. Just a minor nitpick.

for a (currently hypothetical) spinblockers section, please only put misdreavus; it's the only good one anyway.
Haunter is a pretty good spin-blocker, you just have to be very careful with it as one hit can end it.

Anyways, I've been really liking Torkal so far. It doesn't do much, but it's one of the most reliable Rock setters and it spins pretty effectively. If any ghost tries to come in you can just use Yawn on them. If the ghost stays in, you can just send in Absol to try and Pursuit it or predict they switch to try and avoid Absol and spin. SR Weaknesses sucks, but that's just something pretty much every spinner has to deal with. Maybe an Anti-Spinblocker section should be added, as the spinners have trouble spinning if the opposing team has a ghost type in it. All of the spinners are weak to SR, or have to rely on Eviolite to tank hits, so they won't be surviving very long.
 

breh

強いだね
Tell that to my/zebraiken's top 10 teams. Not trying to be a dick but Camerupt is great at setting up SR since it beats a lot of common threats and gets free turns with Roar. Also it easily beats Torkoal, Magmortar, Ninjask, Misdreavus, some Rotom-S variants, Eelektross, etc etc etc. Solid Rock is a really great ability because the best something like Armaldo can do is an unboosted EQ and pray they don't get burned! The only knock it has is the lack of reliable healing.
the more I know I guess; I've been using LO so I assumed everybody else was.

lava plume/sr/yawn/roar?
 

tennisace

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Earth Power > Yawn to smack around Magmortar/Torkoal/things that resist Fire. Its surprisingly versatile for a slow mon, but thats more due to its excellent typing than anything else. If only it got Rapid Spin...

Also speaking of spinners, has anyone tried Smeargle? I'm not going to say its bulky by any means, but I assume it could force some switches with the threat of Spore.
 
Ive seen Tentacool used as a decent rapid spinner. Its got great special bulk with eviolite so it could take on some things like Gorebyss or Magmortar. Shelder or Kabuto could do similar things from the other side of the spectrum. maybe. People mentioning spin blockers are forgetting Drfiblim also.
 
Smeargle can learn can learn every move in the game right?

So why can't it be an effective rapid spinner as well as a hazard supporter.

Maybe people playing the game have forgotten it can rapid spin. It's probably the only full evolve spinner in the game without a stealth rock weakness but it has crappy stats. But it 's got the absolutely best movepool, with spore and foresight so even ghost can't spin block it. and it can set hazards or just baton pass boost as a plus as well.
 

jake

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While it does have access to RS, it's not an effective Rapid Spinner. It's incredibly frail and definitely has better things to do than spin those hazards. Think about it: if you're coming in to use Rapid Spin, hazards will break your sash, you'll use Rapid Spin, and you'll die to whatever they attack they use. Spore works in there somehow too, but I'd rather be using Smeargle to set up layers of hazards or pass boosts to my sweepers than give it a move it gets to use only once before dying. Rapid Spin Smeargle, to me, is almost like facing your opponent down 5/6 with a one-time "spin all hazards" card. Also Smeargle can't run Spore/Foresight/Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes/Spikes/Rapid Spin/Gear Shift/Quiver Dance/Baton Pass/Substitute.

Also Spinda is the only other fully-evolved mon in NU that isn't weak to SR and gets access to Rapid Spin. ^_^
 
^ i never used a focus sash (I generally use left overs) on Smeargle before I generally switch him on the revenge on something slower then him.

as for the Four Move Slot Syndrome, I figure on smeargle it's pretty obvious with his infinite move pool.

As for a set I was thinking something like a

Spore,
Stealth Rock
Spikes / TS
Rapid Spin.

on a Batonpass set, something like

Baton pass
Gear shift/ Quiver Dance
Spore
Rapin Spin/Substitute.

Rapin Spin maybe not be perfect on smeargle being frail but it can be a surprise move when the opponent doesn't expect it attempting to predict your Smeargle moves. When comparing it to the other Rapid Spinners, he doesn't seem so bad.

BTW I forgot about Spinda lol.
 

jake

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I guess all I'm saying is that while Smeargle can run it, it's merely a one-time setback when playing a good player because Smeargle will more than likely get KOd after he spins, meaning you're out a spinner and they just have to set up hazards again. It'll work sometimes yeah, but Smeargle still has better options. :(
 
I've only used Torkoal so far and while it can set up rocks and has some decent offensive presence it wasn't particularly good. Its typing really screws it over taking the quarter from rocks and then dying next turn after spinning them away. It's a good job my opponent has never set up hazards again after the spin or I would've lost a lot more.
 

MMF

Give me the strength to part this sea
I'm definitely going to vouch for how good Armaldo is especially if you use the offensive set like I do. It surprises some people who expect you to SR and then get hit hard/faint. It does more than I've thought it would like critting tennisace's Camerupt first turn ;) but in all seriousness its a very good mon and so is Camerupt. I was using a Sdef set for awhile and did really well. It walled Magmortar, most Magneton, Eelektross, etc which is what I wanted it to do.

Also Zebraiken's Smeargle is a dick. Just saying.
 

marilli

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Well, I did update the OP with all your comments. Now it has a spinblocker section too.

I've been wondering what's people's favorite way of abusing the spike layers in NU. My personal favorite (and a really popular one) is Swellow, but I'm sure there are others out there as well. I'm not really sure if metagaming speculations are allowed in these threads, but with Swellow gone in January, I'm sure people will need other ways to abuse hazards!
 

jake

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Cinccino is probably the best Swellow replacement, especially considering that it's basically the fastest 'mon in NU once the suspected mons leave (Dugtrio might jump to OU, Swellow to RU, and no one cares about Electrode anyway). It really wears down anything and everything and breaks down teams that rely on stuff like Rhydon to take physical hits. I mean, it's already pretty damn good but faster things leaving just makes it even better.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
While it does have access to RS, it's not an effective Rapid Spinner. It's incredibly frail and definitely has better things to do than spin those hazards. Think about it: if you're coming in to use Rapid Spin, hazards will break your sash, you'll use Rapid Spin, and you'll die to whatever they attack they use. Spore works in there somehow too, but I'd rather be using Smeargle to set up layers of hazards or pass boosts to my sweepers than give it a move it gets to use only once before dying. Rapid Spin Smeargle, to me, is almost like facing your opponent down 5/6 with a one-time "spin all hazards" card. Also Smeargle can't run Spore/Foresight/Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes/Spikes/Rapid Spin/Gear Shift/Quiver Dance/Baton Pass/Substitute.

Also Spinda is the only other fully-evolved mon in NU that isn't weak to SR and gets access to Rapid Spin. ^_^
Playing with aerodactyl, to me, is almost like facing your opponent down 5/6 with a one time"No rocks for them and rocks for you" card.

HEY DPP OU! SUP?

Seriously, there's definitely precedent.
Not to mention, smeargle can run a set of rapid spin/spore/baton pass/shell smash, or rapid spin/spore/2 out of 3 hazards moves. Spore alone, under the new sleep rules, is like an OHKO, and then you can add in either hazards support or fricking SMASHPASS. (or any other boosting move ever, for that matter.)
 
You do realize smash Pass is banned in nu right?

Regardless smeargle is just great all around but he lays hazards the best
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
You do realize smash Pass is banned in nu right?

Regardless smeargle is just great all around but he lays hazards the best
Actually, i forgot this;but i feel that my point still stands-spore as it is is close to an OHKO, and everything else it can do just helps that cause. As such, smeargle is far more than a one-time spin.
 
Throh (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Circle Throw
- Payback

This pokemon currently works very well with the hazards, especially SR and Spikes.
 

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