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Swellow, Braviary, Cinccino, Skuntank, Regirock, Quagsire, Magmortar, Misdreavus-all of these Pokemon can take on Jynx (depending on the set, of course), and any faster Pokemon can easily check it. Jynx's Speed tier is average for NU, maybe a little higher than average, but plenty of Pokemon can outspeed it.
Yet none of those can directly switch in, not even into Ice Beam (provided Rocks are down, mainly for Magmortar), let alone tank 2 attacks (only Cinccino and Swellow out of those outspeed WITHOUT a Scarf, and saying that Jynx is "easy" to handle by just adding a scarfer to your team IS wrong). What no one seems to see is HOW Jynx affects a game. Not only NO pokemon that is faster can switch into ANY of its attacks without losing AT least half of its life (that assuming even a lot of resistors), that assuming there's no prediction involved at all, or the number of kills/crippled mons that Jynx can do raises fairly quickly.
Priority absolutely shreds it, and Absol and Skuntank can easily OHKO with Sucker Punch. Gurdurr needs a few boosts to OHKO, but has a guaranteed 2HKO with an Adamant 252 Attack EV spread, and can tank a Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam.
Yes, and Jynx can switch out of the priority users, so to say that "priority users beat it" isn't relevant at all to the discussion. It's also worthy to note that the mons that rely on Sucker Punch to hurt it could let it setup a Substitute for free, or can be Lovely Kissed, or Jynx could simply switch out, to come back later in the match, to fire off yet another powerful hit.
Like Magmortar, handling Jynx with defensive Pokemon isn't always easy. Despite this, there are a plethora of ways to deal with it that are both abundant, and effective. Jynx is a top sweeper, but there's nothing wrong with that. I feel that the NU metagame is equipped to handle Jynx, and it is not banworthy.
Handling Magmortar is actually a lot easier than to handle Jynx. As I've already said in a previous post Jynx has a combination of qualities no other offensive Pokemon in the tier has: perfect coverage, good speed, amazing special attack and a sleep-inducing move, a combination that you don't see in any other pokemon in NU.
I believe Jynx to be broken. None of its would be counters can switch in safely without risking huge damage by one of Jynx's coverage.
Magmortar? Can't switch in with rocks in play. Absol? Can't switch in either. And tends to be forced to engage in a prediction war. Gurdurr? Psychic type attacks(And Mach Punch is so obvious. Then again you shouldn't switch him in at all) Cryogonal? Only if Jynx doesn't carry Psyshock. Flareon? Same deal as Cryogonal. How about Charizard? OHKO'd with rocks in play
Jynx is similar to the situation people had with Alakazam when he was UU. It has no counters, all of its switch ins get heavily damaged(Aside from Hypno, but he sucks and can't do much back anyways. You're asking for him to be set up bait.)
It has a high speed stat(For NU anyways. Most Pokemon in NU sit at around Base 80 or 85 speed, while Jynx is at Base 95 speed) Priority attacks can beat Jynx if they're physical, but honestly, that's as obvious as Scizor bullet punching a Terrakion all the way up in OU. Pursuit can play mind-games, but if Jynx predicts right, you're guaranteed to lose if you had prior damage. Scarfers are also a decent option, but most of them can't switch in safely, and if Scarfs were the only way to beat Jynx, then everyone would have to be forced to run a scarfer just for one threat.
In short, Jynx is just too strong and overcentralizing. The Pokemons faster than it can't switch in at all without taking huge damage, and perhaps the biggest kick in the face is that it can set up on Water types and Stall teams(It doesn't give a darn about Toxic.) It makes my stall team cry if it's the Nasty Plot set, and my offensive team has trouble switching in. Prediction should never be the best way to beat a Pokemon, and Jynx fits that bill perfectly. I'm going to say Ban
@Django: Yes offensive Slowking is a hard counter assuming 2 sleep turns. SpDef rettalk Spiritomb is too but that is non-existent. Munchlax is not a hard counter, it has a good chance to be 2HKOed no matter what spread it chooses. Cofag is 2HKOed.
What I'm trying to get at is that the ability to 2HKO the entire tier on Jynx's part is not and should not be used as the deciding factor imo. Neither is Jynx's speed tier any great crime, there are plenty of common things in NU that outspeed and threaten the OHKO on Jynx. I agree on the offensive pressure part. I think that is the deciding factor on keeping Jynx in check. The difference for me is the offensive pressure which NU lacks, which allows Jynx more set up opportunities. But keep in mind that you don't need things that can take 3 hits from Jynx if you can give every member of your team something that hits Jynx back.
The other thing is personal experience. Based on your encounters with Jynx, how helpless have you felt against it or how powerful have you felt with it? Is it really coming in, sleeping, then killing and skeddaling off and coming in for a second time everytime? If it is then that is pretty ridiculously broken, but in my experience that scenario has happened very rarely.
Up to now I wasn't even aware Jynx could 2HKO the tier until I did the calcs yesterday. Jynx has never been an overwhelming problem for any of my teams. Every member of every team I've ever made in NU has a move that can hit Jynx hard, without ever specifically preparing for it. That's different from seeing something like DDShelgon which you know if you can't kill it in 3 moves it's going to sweep you, so you're forced to switch and find an answer that can 2HKO while being able to take an attack. With Jynx you can just click attack because you know its only option is to OHKO you or to sleep you, otherwise it's dead. Jynx just gives you a taste of what hyper offence is like. All of the standard revengers have worked fine as well, I have never felt required to carry a specific Jynx revenger or trapper to get rid of this menace.
In short, I've been making standard teams without giving Jynx any specific consideration other than 'make sure everything can hit it for 25%' and I haven't felt the longing for a specific counter or a burning desire to remove it from the battlefield (just like any sweeper). Its frailty is what's making me reserved about Jynx's 'broken' status. Other people's experiences will vary of course, which is what this discussion is for.
This was mostly written before I went to school at 7ish and now posting it, so some things might have already been said, like Luck>Skill beating me to the punch on that none of the Pokemon that revenge it as "easily" as people are saying they do can switch into any of Jynx's sets.
Django already have very good reasons as to why Jynx isn't used as much in RU, but let me tell you this. From using Jynx in RU I have to say it is quite a good Pokemon capable of dealing massive damage to enemy teams that do not carry a Slowking or Munchlax, and the situation it is at in RU reminds me of Vileplume. How it was an excellent Pokemon in NU after the 1st tier shifts when we lost Roselia, but it wasn't used much. It wasn't until a while later that more and more people started using it and realized how good it was that it became popular.
Besides this is irrelevant, we should be talking about NU not RU, if you really have to beat around the bush that much to counter argue as to why Jynx is broken then something is wrong. The reason Jynx is a suspect is for its versatility, ability to beat its counters with the right set, and put players in a situation where they have to predict perfectly or get swept. I highly doubt that have made standard teams without Jynx in mind and had absolutely no problem with it. You more than likely have more than 1 Pokemon slower than Jynx for it to take advantage of. Please tell me how you made a standard team without Jynx in mind that can afford to have a Pokemon be hit by Lovely Kiss, be capable of switching straight into it not caring if its SubPlot or LO 3 Attacks and be capable of both taking a hit, outspeeding and killing back. No Pokemon in the Top 40 can do this, you said you had to need to trap it so Skuntank is out of the question too. Likely you've been using Probopass(as that is one of the few standard things you might be using just for Stealth Rock) and facing SubPlot Jynx only , though I'll say right now that one of the reasons Probopass is above Regirock is because it not only beats the birds but also can handle SubPlot Jynx.
No I am not beating around the bush trying to argue for counters. I am looking at this from every possible angle to try to find a reason why Jynx shouldn't be banned and you should be too. It would be wrong and lazy to just dismiss Jynx as broken as soon as a discussion comes up. We should be aiming to ban as little Pokemon as possible and if there is any reason why something can be considered fair and not broken then we have a duty to investigate it. As soon as we have established Jynx's threat level (which I think we have done great job at so far), this thread should move on to trying to find any and every possible reasons for why Jynx isn't broken.
As for my own teams I'll tell you precisely my amazing secrets to not losing sleep due to Jynx: my hazard setter or 'easy' Jynx switch-in has always carried a combination of Toxic, Rock Blast, Magic Coat, Roar, Sucker Punch or Earthquake (naturally). My other 'easy' Jynx switch in carries Lum Berry and threatens an OHKO (again, a natural item choice with no special consideration given to Jynx). I have always had 2 or 3 Pokemon on my team that outspeeds Jynx and can OHKO (a natural selection of sweepers and Scarfer). The other one or two Pokemon threaten an OHKO on Jynx if the Lovely Kiss doesn't connect. 4/6 of my team can tank an attack at full health and OHKO it back. I can also tell you that I have never used Probopass as a hazard setter ever. I'm not quite sure what this exercise does but now you know and you can make of it whatever way you like. Maybe I am the exception when building teams but none of my Pokemon were chosen with Jynx in mind and nor have I felt the need to worry about what Jynx might do.
And Jolteon, Raikou, Scarf Rotom-A, Weavile, Bisharp, Crobat and Mamoswine could take on Staraptor without trying( as long as they don't switch-in obviously, as they are raped like the ones for Jynx)
Yes, I know Jynx is not as strong as Staraptor but it is the best comparison I can find because of most no ban arguments used such as it being it frail, "easy to check and revenge with faster mons or priority",weak to SR and while sitting at a decent speed on its tier not enough to outspeed everything.
No we're not relying on Lovely Kiss missing but just to point out the repercussions of it missing, Jynx is more vulnerable than most in the event of an untimely miss (a lot of even weak threats like Quagsire being able to OHKO) unlike other common sleep users such as Tangela.
Yes I understand you just made a nominal list of things slower than Jynx, that's why I looked through the top 26 and picked out Misdreavus, Cryogonal, Miltank and Vileplume too. The list of Pokemon that Jynx can come in after a kill is much longer than the list that Jynx can safely switch into which looks quite sparse.
It's this guaranteed switch in that concerns me the most because Jynx can guarantee itself a shot at Lovely Kiss.
You know what this discussion reminds me of? Durant's Suspect discussion a few months ago for RU. People said that Durant had checks, and that its own ability (Hustle) caused its moves to all be 80% accurate. Repurcussions of missing would be huge, but at the end of the day the Pokemon was still broken.
Jynx reminds me of Durant for that reason only. LK is like Durant's Hustle in that it is a factor in the Pokemon's brokenness. Missing isn't so harmful - many Pokemon run Focus Blast in their movepools, and Focus Blast has the same accuracy (75%) as Lovely Kiss.
Part of the Suspect Discussion also mentioned that Durant could 2HKO/OHKO almost all of the RU tier as well.
I don't want to derail too much: Durant had access to a godly speed tier as well as Baton Pass. It was able to survive revenge killing attempts by physical sweepers due to its great defensive typing and average physical bulk. You'll find in that case the suspect had high power, good defensive typing, almost unmatched speed (outspeeding almost the entire unboosted tier and being able to take a hit from things that do outspeed it and KO them back), good boosting move, and Baton Pass. I wasn't involved in the discussions so I don't know what my preference would have been on the matter but it has quite a few notable differences to Jynx.
I thought this was a really interesting line of discussion. I'm not particularly interested in discussing Jynx's ability to switch in on any given threat, but rather simply the parallels to Durant. Obviously Jynx isn't exactly the same because it has retarded defensive typing (the Steel-typing was excellent for Durant) and nor does it have a special Hustle or Baton Pass. However, it does have a good Speed stat for NU, and comparatively, they outspeed similar percentages of their respective tiers. Obviously these calculations will be flawed because they're entirely different situations and the ability of each suspect to deal with faster Pokemon isn't taken into account, but I did them anyway for novelty purposes.
6 Pokemon in current RU outspeed Durant, and 48 Pokemon underspeed it. On the other side, 35 Pokemon in NU outspeed Jynx, 6 Pokemon tie with it, and 164 underspeed it. 6/54 = ~11% of Pokemon in RU, whereas 35/205 = ~17%. This isn't obviously worth a whole lot because of what Pokemon are where, but yeah. Let's focus on those Pokemon that are naturally faster than Jynx: of the 36, a grand 17 of them are less than 2% in usage at the moment, and a couple of them are edging that borderline.
We can really ignore all of these, since they're essentially the NU of NU. Some of them don't even run max Speed anyway (Regigigas) and a lot are just garbage (Raticate, Liepard, Emolga, Lopunny, Swoobat, Fearow, Luvdisc). I really think we should take a further in-depth look at those more popular Pokemon that outspeed Jynx, and more specifically these two factors: Can it risk coming in on Jynx? and Does it threaten to OHKO?
Can it risk coming in on Jynx?only LO Ice Beam and LO Psyshock were used in the calculations, since they're likely the most powerful attacks Jynx will use to hit switch-ins
No - Ninjask, Electrode (LO Ice Beam OHKOes 82% of the time after SR), Swellow, Zebstrika (OHKOed after SR), Cinccino (OHKOed after SR), Persian (OHKOed after SR), Serperior, Tauros (LO Ice Beam OHKOes 88% of the time after SR), Kadabra (non Eviolite, also rofl Psyshock has a 20% chance to OHKO), Electabuzz (LO Ice Beam OHKOes 88% of the time after SR, non Eviolite), Rapidash (LO Psyshock OHKOes after SR, LO Ice Beam does ~50% so it cannot switch into SR again after switching in once), Cryogonal (OHKOed by Psyshock), Charizard (OHKOed after SR, does 72-85% w/ Ice Beam), Linoone (OHKOed after SR), Raichu (LO Ice Beam OHKOes 82% of the time after SR).
Yes - Miltank (LO Psyshock does 45-54% to uninvested), Slaking (LO Ice Beam does 60-71%), Eviolite Electabuzz (LO Ice Beam does 52-61%).
Maybe?? - Floatzel (LO Psyshock does 82-96%), Eviolite Kadabra (LO Ice Beam does 75-89%), Simipour (LO Psyshock does 79-92%).
What do we learn from this? Nothing that outspeeds Jynx can reliably switch in on it, especially not if Jynx has Focus Blast (which I omitted largely because of the other potential moves like NP, LK, and Sub; Jynx works fine with just Ice Beam and Psyshock if you're facing offensive teams). Let's take a look at the other half:
Does it threaten to OHKO?
No - Electrode (LO Thunderbolt does 56-66%), special Serperior, Kadabra (LO Shadow Ball KOes with rocks, tho), Electabuzz (LO Thunderbolt does 63-75%), Cryogonal, Raichu (LO Tbolt does 61-72%), Simipour
On the other hand, a good chunk of those Pokemon can OHKO if - and only if - they get in freely. However, nothing can do both except Miltank and Slaking, and they're demolished by Focus Blast, should you choose to pack it. This really only proves what other people have said about Jynx up until this point; if Jynx gets in, something is going to a) die or b) sleep, and either scenario is going to be a nasty one for your team. 75% accuracy is not bad enough to say "oh just hope LK misses!", and this was pretty thoroughly proved in the Durant thread that bad accuracy doesn't prevent it from being OP (in fact, the CB set was cited several times as the reason it was too strong. Imagine that!). There are obviously other Choice Scarf users that I didn't bother to include because lazy, but you can assume they follow the same scenario: they cannot switch in at all, and they likely can beat Jynx once in. But Jynx is essentially powerful enough to beat nearly every Pokemon in the meta, aside from really really specific counters like Grumpig, Hypno, and Eviolite Magmar which have no other purpose to exist.
I feel like Jynx's 4MSS is actually a possible strength. When you see Jynx, you can't know what set it's running - and while Jynx cannot beat everything with one set, it can easily change the set to beat other Pokemon. Lovely Kiss, while fantastic, is not necessary, and you could very easily use Substitute + 3 attacks or NP + 3 attacks (which is probably not a good set lol) or NP + Sub or NP + LK or LK + 3 Attacks or NP + Sub + LK + Ice Beam or whatever the fuck you want, your opponent probably doesn't know. There are sets that are better than others but obviously they have different checks and counters. This is almost akin to Salamence of Gen 4, although Jynx doesn't have Salamence's fantastic typing and bulk. We can also draw more parallels back to Durant - although Durant wasn't as difficult to get in as Jynx thanks to its Steel typing, neutral attacks would still generally be able to 2hko it, and it could be revenge killed by several faster Pokemon and many Choice Scarf users.
The thing that really holds Jynx back is its typing, which gives it really very few resistances (although Dry Skin helps), and its bad overall defenses. If either were slightly more inclined to Jynx's favor, what argument do we really have against banning it? Not a serious question, of course, but still, something to think about.
edit: k read everything else. It's really been established that Jynx has literally no counters when you consider the fact that it can a) run multiple sets and b) utilize Lovely Kiss. While it -can- be revenge killed, this really often doesn't mean the end of Jynx, since it very well can switch out and threaten havoc again later on in the match if it comes in for free (which can be done on a double switch, after a KO, whatever). The only strong Pursuit possibilities are Skuntank, Tauros, Sneasel, and Absol (to a lesser extent since then you're running like 3 Dark moves lol). It can shred through offensive and defensive teams alike, and basically nothing can switch into it -and- outright kill it. I would strongly agree with a ban.
Great discussion! Keep it going. :) especially senate members
On the contrary, I think that this is extremely relevant. When I say priority, I'm talking about Skuntank and Gurdurr more than Absol, and both can take an attack from Jynx.
An important point I'd like to raise is that Jynx's susceptibility to entry hazards really holds it in check. IMO, if it were indeed broken, it would be able to run rings around its foes, wearing them down over time with repeated attacks and retreating. LuckOverSkill, saying that Jynx can just switch out of priority moves is ludicrous. Assuming that Jynx holds a Life Orb and Stealth Rock is down on its side (which are both fairly standard, and a plausible scenario) Jynx is limited to two switchins if it wants to pull off a sweep. Three if it's lucky. It can't simply switch out of its counters when it feels like it, because it's taking Stealth Rock damage every time. In this regard, Jynx doesn't have the metagame wrapped around its little finger, and can't do whatever it pleases. Jynx has to be played carefully. It's easy for something to go wrong (Lovely Kiss or Focus Blast can miss), and this can easily spell the end for it.
The fact that Jynx is difficult to switch into isn't a very strong point when it's so easily revenge killed by faster Pokemon, Choice Scarf users ect, which are plentiful, and can take it out with nearly any attack due to its godawful Defense stat. A lot of Pokemon don't have any safe switchins. Look at Magmortar.
If Jynx were broken, this wouldn't be a problem. But it is. Jynx isn't a be-and-end-all sweeper that has amazing coverage, great power, reliable sleep, prediction-defeating support moves, and a boosting move all on one set. It has terrible four-moveslot syndrome, which will always leave an easily-exploitable weak spot in its armor.
As for the SubNP set, it's handled amazingly by Probopass and Cinccino. Not Jynx's best set right now, IMO.
On the contrary, I think that this is extremely relevant. When I say priority, I'm talking about Skuntank and Gurdurr more than Absol, and both can take an attack from Jynx.
An important point I'd like to raise is that Jynx's susceptibility to entry hazards really holds it in check. IMO, if it were indeed broken, it would be able to run rings around its foes, wearing them down over time with repeated attacks and retreating. LuckOverSkill, saying that Jynx can just switch out of priority moves is ludicrous. Assuming that Jynx holds a Life Orb and Stealth Rock is down on its side (which are both fairly standard, and a plausible scenario) Jynx is limited to two switchins if it wants to pull off a sweep. Three if it's lucky. It can't simply switch out of its counters when it feels like it, because it's taking Stealth Rock damage every time. In this regard, Jynx doesn't have the metagame wrapped around its little finger, and can't do whatever it pleases. Jynx has to be played carefully. It's easy for something to go wrong (Lovely Kiss or Focus Blast can miss), and this can easily spell the end for it.
Jynx does not need to sweep. The damage Jynx does and the reason it is so powerful is that it crriples two Pokemon every time it comes in. Two switchins is all it needs to completely destroy an opposing team. As for Skuntank and Gurdur...
252SpAtk Life Orb Jynx (Neutral) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Gurdurr (Neutral): 64% - 75% (240 - 282 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
(note that this would be a terrible, terrible Skuntank set, I only used max / max to show just how helpless Skuntank is).
So they can both switch in once maximum, and both are rendered completely useless by Lovely Kiss, so I really really don't see what they are doing to beat Jynx. Even if you fodder something to the sleep, Gurdurr will die the second time it switches in, and Skuntank has to guess at weather Jynx will stay in or switch out. They are not reliable ways of beating Jynx. You said yourself it can get two switchins, which as shown here is all it needs to do to beat its "checks".
As for "if it were indeed broken, it would be able to run rings around its foes, wearing them down over time with repeated attacks and retreating."
Why would it need to do this when it can just destory everything in 2-3 turns? There is no need for it to switch in more than twice, and by that point it will have beaten the majority of the opposing team.
The fact that Jynx is difficult to switch into isn't a very strong point when it's so easily revenge killed by faster Pokemon, Choice Scarf users ect, which are plentiful, and can take it out with nearly any attack due to its godawful Defense stat. A lot of Pokemon don't have any safe switchins. Look at Magmortar.
How is that not a strong point? Jynx comes in, one thing sleeps another thing dies. Your going to have to sacrifice this to get a revenge killer in every single time Jynx comes in. Magmortar does have safe switchins. Between Flareon, Altaria and Rock types Magmortar cannot run a set that will beat every single one. Jynx has Grumpig and Hypno, cool.
If Jynx were broken, this wouldn't be a problem. But it is. Jynx isn't a be-and-end-all sweeper that has amazing coverage, great power, reliable sleep, prediction-defeating support moves, and a boosting move all on one set. It has terrible four-moveslot syndrome, which will always leave an easily-exploitable weak spot in its armor.
Jynx does not need to sweep an entire team to be broken. The LO + 3 Attacks set is the strongest set, and it has amazing coverage, great power, reliable sleep and I don't even know what you mean by "prediciton defeating support moves" (Substitute?). It doesn't even need a boosting move to beat everything in its path. It only needs 4 moves to get its job done, which is battering 2-3 Pokemon every single time it comes in.
As for the SubNP set, it's handled amazingly by Probopass and Cinccino. Not Jynx's best set right now, IMO.
Just got finished moving in to the new apt. Jynx really is a mon that you have to play around in order to beat. Whenever I ran into a Jynx I always had a check list for how to handle it depending slightly on what team I was using.
Jynx comes in:
1) Do I have any mons in reserve that are worth sacrificing for sleep?
if yes, switch to it. if no, stay in and hope for the best
2) If 1 is yes, do I have a mon that can revenge kill Jynx?
if yes, sac mon and pull the card. if no, proceed to #3.
3) Is there anything that can take a general hit on the switch and kill back / force it out?
if yes, do it. if no, I'm fucked.
Beyond this, Jynx is definitely as effective as the skill level of the trainer. I've had moments where people failed to predict switches and were behind the ball from the start, allowing me to win. I've also had times where they played Jynx beautifully and I just had to hope they overpredict at some point, or that I could stall Jynx out to LO damage if they were using LK+3. I still am on the fence on whether Jynx is broken, if I'm still in this same position when I have to write my paragraph I'm likely going to vote to not ban.
We all know theory discussion is good and all but there is something this thread is missing, actual Jynx in practice. I want to thank my friend Ebeast for giving me this replay where he defeats Cherub Agent all thanks to Jynx, Jynx made it possible to comeback after losing a huge member on his team Samurott, after being denied an easy sweep after Turn 1 due to a miss.(Jynx got 2 kills by herself while making possible the sleep in Musharna that allowed Ebeast to win the game, can be 4 if you count Regirock).
An interesting way to look at Jynx would be as follows: consider a special powerhouse like Magmortar (remember in early NU people were complaining that it can't be walled and wrecks all slower teams, etc)--similarly cannot be walled reliably, except now you add a sleep move and significantly better speed. You even have access to a great boosting move on top... Yes, it can be revenge killed, but it is almost impossible to do without a scarfer or one of the normal types (which is basically all covered with something simple like tangela)
I mean all the arguments are laid out etc and it's just time for a decision that can be argued for both sides...
We all know theory discussion is good and all but there is something this thread is missing, actual Jynx in practice. I want to thank my friend Ebeast for giving me this replay where he defeats Cherub Agent all thanks to Jynx, Jynx made it possible to comeback after losing a huge member on his team Samurott, after being denied an easy sweep after Turn 1 due to a miss.(Jynx got 2 kills by herself while making possible the sleep in Musharna that allowed Ebeast to win the game, can be 4 if you count Regirock).
That's pretty much what happens with that Jynx set every battle when a good player is using it, unless of course, the opponent has one of the dedicated counters to Jynx that have already been mentioned or Jynx misses with Lovely Kiss.
That's pretty much what happens with that Jynx set every battle when a good player is using it, unless of course, the opponent has one of the dedicated counters to Jynx that have already been mentioned or Jynx misses with Lovely Kiss.
The point is that Jynx has very few counters and the nature of them changes depending on whatever set it's running (for example, Probopass defeats the SubNP / LK / Ice Beam set, but loses hard to any set running Focus Blast). About Grumpig, Hypno, and Metang (does that even count as a counter to anything); while they technically "counter" Jynx, they're a huge liability to have on your team because they're set up on or defeated by so many of the powerful threats of the metagame right now. They also have their own faults that allow Jynx to bypass them over time (Grumpig loses to the SubCM set, and Metang loses overall because it has no recovery).
Point is, Jynx has -no- counters, and there's nothing that is both faster than her and can tank a hit. Jynx wrecks the metagame right now and there's really no way to stop her without sacking several Pokemon to sleep/being KOed (which means it has done its job in running through your team) or running one of those "hard" counters who can still be beaten by Jynx anyway.
Pray tell, what counters do you speak of? I mean, considering the only ones we've found so far are Grumpig, Fire Punch Hypno, and Metang, I'd really appreciate hearing all the other Pokemon that you believe to be "hard counters."
Please read over the ones found to not work in earlier parts of this thread before replying. I eagerly await your response.
...
Hard counters? What? Have you read this thread at all? We also proved that Jynx was hard to counter in RU as well, while we're at it. I'm glad ChaoticaMortis took the words out of my mouth for the most part.
The point is that Jynx has very few counters and the nature of them changes depending on whatever set it's running (for example, Probopass defeats the SubNP / LK / Ice Beam set, but loses hard to any set running Focus Blast). About Grumpig, Hypno, and Metang (does that even count as a counter to anything); while they technically "counter" Jynx, they're a huge liability to have on your team because they're set up on or defeated by so many of the powerful threats of the metagame right now. They also have their own faults that allow Jynx to bypass them over time (Grumpig loses to the SubCM set, and Metang loses overall because it has no recovery).
Point is, Jynx has -no- counters, and there's nothing that is both faster than her and can tank a hit. Jynx wrecks the metagame right now and there's really no way to stop her without sacking several Pokemon to sleep/being KOed (which means it has done its job in running through your team) or running one of those "hard" counters who can still be beaten by Jynx anyway.
Grumpig is the only legitimate counter, but the problem is that it is really easy to trap it with Skuntank or Absol and instantly be done with it. At least Grumpig can do other things such as beating Cryogonal, Articuno, and Magmortar/general special attacker fairly well. SubCM Jynx doesn't beat Grumpig's best set(aka the one I spend a good while figuring out perfect EVs, moves, to counter what I needed to) that people(mostly me, but w/e) use
Thunder Wave / Taunt / Heal Bell / Psyshock
Psyshock actually 3HKOes Jynx lol, and goes past its CM boosts. Even though Grumpig is truly a hard counter, it has no reliable recovery and does get wore down by Jynx easily, while getting trapped by Skuntank and Absol.
Jynx's utility in Lovely Kiss gives it the ability to wear down its only hard counter and by the time it is forced out, be capable of just switching out and repeating with essentially full health. That and Skuntank/Absol already having incredible offensive synergy with Jynx, is what IMO makes Jynx a little too much for NU.
[GrumpigIsGoodRant]However Grumpig is still good for its utility and ability to counter Cryogonal, Articuno, Emboar, or ANY Magmortar(Specs in Sun Fire Blast is only a 3HKO LOL)
In fact this is what our fellow MC Hammer has to say about Magmortar
So most of the counters for Jynx are low on usage....that makes Jynx broken, ormaybe the metagame hasn´t addapted to it yet. Take a look a Terrakion in OU for example. It is fast, powerful, not many pokemons in OU can safely take on the multiple sets it can run,and its best counters are on the lower tiers yet it isn´t considered broken. So what makes Jynx so broken? Because what i´m seeing here is just the qualities of a great sweeper in general and not a broken mon
So most of the counters for Jynx are low on usage....that makes Jynx broken, ormaybe the metagame hasn´t addapted to it yet. Take a look a Terrakion in OU for example. It is fast, powerful, not many pokemons in OU can safely take on the multiple sets it can run,and its best counters are on the lower tiers yet it isn´t considered broken. So what makes Jynx so broken? Because what i´m seeing here is just the qualities of a great sweeper in general and not a broken mon
This is an easy question to answer, read the whole thread and the pro ban posts.
Edit: And it has nothing to do with "uncommon counters", just the ease Jynx have to greatly damage all team styles, her crippling her "checks and counters" with insane ease while forcing them to guess perfectly what she is about to do or else risk losing a mon or two, and maybe 3 because of the new sleep mechanics. Her counters except for Grumpig being trash for anything else is just an added bonus.
[GrumpigIsGoodRant]However Grumpig is still good for its utility and ability to counter Cryogonal, Articuno, Emboar, or ANY Magmortar(Specs in Sun Fire Blast is only a 3HKO LOL)
In fact this is what our fellow MC Hammer has to say about Magmortar
Honestly, I don't think Grumpig is that bad, but I've never had much success with it (this was using standard sets and spreads, not some of the experimental stuff you've mentioned) and I'd really rather not have something on my team that would otherwise be (mostly) dead weight unless my opponent was packing a Jynx.
Jynx is too good because you pretty much have to sac something to take it down, as everything that can kill it while not being very niche as only being able to counter Jynx is horrible against the rest of the tier. No pokemon should be able to force having a dedicated counter to it and it alone. Plus she 2hkos most of her 'counters' anyways.
I normally think most of the ban talk is ridiculous but Jynx is fairly overpowered. The Scarf set is particularly brutal because basically nothing can outspeed it, even other Choice users, and even the rare threat that Jynx doesn't cover(or perhaps doesn't want to risk Focus Miss) can still be Lovely Kissed and we all know how OP sleep is this gen. It's basically a free KO, even if you have to switch right after.
Dry Skin doesn't help matters, turning a frail pokemon into a pokemon that can switch into things it can possibly revenge kill for absolute free, especially if it's the Life Orb set.
The only thing bad about Jynx is two of it's better moves have bad accuracy...but honestly, how many pokemon in NU have utility in all 5 tiers? That says a lot about how easy Jynx is to use and how dominant of a consideration it has to be in teambuilding...
And another thing which people don't like to bring up is while tanking a move like Ice Beam is all good and dandy, eventually it WILL freeze you, and you WILL probably lose because of it. This cannot be underestimated...it's always a risk.
I'm not for a ban outright, but it's shocking to me that it's still an NU mon. It seems too good for the tier. The only reason I've generally had little problems with Jynx myself is because I can counter it with my own Scarf Jynx...which can outspeed and Sleep.
While edit later with a way longer post, but just leaving this for now.
I find the argument of Jynx can be revenged by <insert x pokemon here> to be really poor because unless it has Pursuit( and let's be honest here only Sneasel can fit that on his set of all the faster pokemon) nothing can guarantee that you will eliminate Jynx that way. Same with "Jynx can't switch into anything unless a choice locked Water-type move" because Jynx is not intented to come in that way, she comes in when she knows she will outspeed for sure and remove that Pokemon from the match or can't really threaten her and then picking from Substitue, Lovely Kiss or Ice beam to greatly affect something and start her reign of terror from there.In a way Jynx reminds me of UU Staraptor, and lets remember at the time Raptor was in UU a lot of pokemon were able to revenge it either by priority or simply outspeeding it and we all know how that ended. I know Jynx doesn't hit as hard as Staraptor but just a small variation in her set causes her check and counter list to change.
This doesn't fit in an offensive team at all, and If I really wanted screens for an offensive one I would use Gardevoir before Hypno any day because of her sexy Memento. Not to mention that he is bad for anything else that is not beating Jynx. And if for some reason Jynx has trick Hypno will be even less effective through the match while Jynx freely switches out. And as someone that hates team without lots of offensive power Hypno is nothing but dead weight for that.
I find this argument to be especially poor because the few things that can outspeed and revenge kill Jynx just don't hit that hard to really put offensive pressure on the opponent. It's not like you can switch in Sawk and nail something with a CC for a minimum of like 35 percent at best assuming you have a physically defensive wall that resists....
I mean, really? Rock Blast from Cinccino? What CAN'T eat that? Pretty much any decent bulked pokemon that is neutral to rock will eat that for breakfast for a 3HKO at best.
While it is a fast, powerful special attacker with a semi-accurate sleep move, its negative attributes keep it in check. The Stealth Rock weakness, lack of bulk, weakness to priority, and shaky accuracy of Lovely Kiss and Focus Blast balance it out. Without these factors to hold it in check, it'd be unstoppable and worthy of a ban, but Jynx is simply incapable of manhandling the entire tier like a broken offensive threat should. Swellow, Braviary, Cinccino, Skuntank, Regirock, Quagsire, Magmortar, Misdreavus-all of these Pokemon can take on Jynx (depending on the set, of course), and any faster Pokemon can easily check it. Jynx's Speed tier is average for NU, maybe a little higher than average, but plenty of Pokemon can outspeed it. Priority absolutely shreds it, and Absol and Skuntank can easily OHKO with Sucker Punch. Gurdurr needs a few boosts to OHKO, but has a guaranteed 2HKO with an Adamant 252 Attack EV spread, and can tank a Life Orb-boosted Ice Beam.
Like Magmortar, handling Jynx with defensive Pokemon isn't always easy. Despite this, there are a plethora of ways to deal with it that are both abundant, and effective. Jynx is a top sweeper, but there's nothing wrong with that. I feel that the NU metagame is equipped to handle Jynx, and it is not banworthy.
