Pokémon Kangaskhan

[Ryolain]

I've seen a couple people here talk about Fighting resists and things that laugh off PuP damage…in these cases, the point of PuP isn't damage, it's the boost. While there are certain things that take just enough damage from it to turn some would-be 2HKOs into OHKOs on your next turn, its main point is to give MKang a +2. For most intents and purposes it should be thought of like Swords Dance. For some reason people fixate on the fact that it's a non-STAB 40 BP move, which is completely irrelevant unless your name is Ttar or you're a Ghost trying to block it.

As Dragontamer stated, MKang's first order of business is always getting a boost. If there's still a Ghost on the field, MKang shouldn't MEvo on its first turn so it's guaranteed to get at least +1. While not as terrifying as +2, especially in regards to wall breaking, +1 with an effective Choice Band and a high BP STAB with no drawbacks will still wreck anything that's not very bulky. We're diving into Theorymon, but in my experience it hasn't been hard to find something else on your opponent's team that lets you get in another PuP, and then it's GG.

 

[Ryolain]

Lugia calcs and Ho-Oh calcs:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 4-6 (0.9 - 1.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
then,
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Broken Multiscale) Lugia: 319-378 (76.6 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lugia gets killed off with SR on the field, yep, one of the top Uber walls. Then we have Lugia:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lugia Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 325-384 (92.5 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
A 140 BP Move off of STAB and a 90 SpA, along with 252+ and a Choice Specs, isn't enough to kill off MegaKhan. No one even runs Psycho Boost/Choice Specs anyways, it is just an example. Then Ho-Oh:
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 25-30 (6 - 7.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 375-442 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
this adds up to 96.1 - 113.4. Seriously, this thing is too strong. Oh, and when Ho-Oh fights back:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Kangaskhan: 300-354 (85.4 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Just a 6.3% chance. Wow.

Also, food for thought, but Facade ignores the Burn and hits with a monstrous 140 BP, might be worthwhile...

There isn't really anything that you're using Return against that isn't already OHKO'd by it/2HKO'd in combination with PuP. The most common types to Burn you are Ghosts anyway, so you'd still have to get through them some other way with your damage cut in half.

 

[Strykeypoo]

Just a reminder, but now that the attack drop from burn doesn't apply when using Facade (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going by bulbapedia here), burning Kangaskhan shouldn't be considered a way of neutering it.


252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 183-216 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 139-163 (36 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heatran: 267-315 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


With Stealth Rock support, Mega Kangaskhan 2HKOs max HP Tyranitar and Scizor while still easily getting the 2HKO on Heatran. Now, if you get burned while setting up a PuP:

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 337-396 (83.4 - 98%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Balanced.

 

[Machamp]

You should run a Facade set anyway! 140BP > 102BP!
140 + STAB = 210 + (70 + STAB) = 315BP? lol wut

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

You should run a Facade set anyway! 140BP > 102BP!
140 + STAB = 210 + (70 + STAB) = 315BP? lol wut

Facade is 70 power unless you are statused.

Plus, I'm pretty sure facade does not negate burn's attack drop, at least if it did only for facade.

 

[Machamp]

Facade is 70 power unless you are statused.

Plus, I'm pretty sure facade does not negate burn's attack drop, at least if it did only for facade.

You are right. And I meant to use it if someone wants to Burn you cause they feel cheeky.

 

[Ryolain]

Okay, according to the Facade page on Smogon, it only ignores the damage drop from Burn if your ability is Guts. So this whole thing is moot.

 

[alexhitman666]

Facade is 70 power unless you are statused.

Plus, I'm pretty sure facade does not negate burn's attack drop, at least if it did only for facade.

Facade blocks the burn attack drop, it was changed in Gen 6.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

Facade blocks the burn attack drop, it was changed in Gen 6.

But just for itself, right?

 

[alexhitman666]

But just for itself, right?

Should have specified it, only negates the attack drop for Facade

 

[Fafnir]

Still, if you see the burn coming (and considering just how ridiculous Megakhan is, it's not like you can afford to wait to send out some form of response, anyway), running Facade wouldn't be a bad way to counter that.

 

[Ryolain]

Still, if you see the burn coming (and considering just how ridiculous Megakhan is, it's not like you can afford to wait to send out some form of response, anyway), running Facade wouldn't be a bad way to counter that.

It doesn't have a moveslot for Facade. The percentage of things it will surprise and beat with it is much smaller than the percentage of things it won't.

 

[Fafnir]

It doesn't have a moveslot for Facade. The percentage of things it will surprise and beat with it is much smaller than the percentage of things it won't.

True enough. Especially since getting a PUP against anything that you'd get WoW'd by could prove difficult. That said, it'd be a nice surprise against anyone expecting Megakhan to be put down after WoW, even if I don't see it ever making any mainstream use.

 

[Strykeypoo]

It doesn't have a moveslot for Facade. The percentage of things it will surprise and beat with it is much smaller than the percentage of things it won't.

What does Mega Kangaskhan lose out against with Facade instead of Return? The only thing that immediately comes to mind is Aegislash. As long as you are burned, anything that is hit by Facade will die if you get up to +2. The only risk is Mega Kangaskhan not getting burned.

 

[AOPSUser]

What does Mega Kangaskhan lose out against with Facade instead of Return? The only thing that immediately comes to mind is Aegislash. As long as you are burned, anything that is hit by Facade will die if you get up to +2. The only risk is Mega Kangaskhan not getting burned.

Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Gliscor, etc. Sableye takes damage every time it switches into you so by switching around you can easily take it out.

 

[Ryolain]

What does Mega Kangaskhan lose out against with Facade instead of Return? The only thing that immediately comes to mind is Aegislash. As long as you are burned, anything that is hit by Facade will die if you get up to +2. The only risk is Mega Kangaskhan not getting burned.

What do Return or Facade have anything to do with Aegislash at all…the important move there is Crunch.

The point is that if you are NOT burned, that 32 BP drop makes a significant difference in make other threats that you won't be able to OHKO before they cripple you or just flat out kill you. Return's power is necessary against neutral threats.

 

[Strykeypoo]

What do Return or Facade have anything to do with Aegislash at all…the important move there is Crunch.

The point is that if you are NOT burned, that 32 BP drop makes a significant difference in make other threats that you won't be able to OHKO before they cripple you or just flat out kill you. Return's power is necessary against neutral threats.

If you intend to get burned, which is why you would run Facade, you can't use Earthquake to take out Aegislash as you'll have the attack drop. I wouldn't run Crunch on Kangaskhan ever, regardless. Not only can Aegislash KS it to give you a -2 attack drop, but there's no room on your set for it after factoring in Return/Facade, Power up Punch and Sucker Punch. You already have Sucker Punch for that Dark coverage, running Crunch is unnecessary.

 

[Thorhammer]

If you intend to get burned, which is why you would run Facade, you can't use Earthquake to take out Aegislash as you'll have the attack drop. I wouldn't run Crunch on Kangaskhan ever, regardless. Not only can Aegislash KS it to give you a -2 attack drop, but there's no room on your set for it after factoring in Return/Facade, Power up Punch and Sucker Punch. You already have Sucker Punch for that Dark coverage, running Crunch is unnecessary.

You don't intend to get burned.

If you have Facade over Return and don't get burned, it's 70 BP vs. 102, a 31% power drop on your most powerful attack by far. If you do get burned, it's 70 BP vs. 51, a 37% increase, since Facade is not Guts; it does not ignore the Atk from drop being burned. Kangaskhan is still nowhere near its healthy, sweeper state.

Don't use Facade.

 

[Fafnir]

Before anything continues, it should be noted that there's some controversy as to the nature of Facade, and whether it was altered in this generation to do full damage even with burn. Some clarification should be made before any further argument into this specific subject continues.

 

[Hidious]

Just to point out, there is actually a 72 raw power difference between return and facade. When factoring in stab and parental bond, Facade is 70 (1.5) (1.5) = 157.5. Return is 102 (1.5) (1.5) = 229.5

 

[Strykeypoo]

You don't intend to get burned.

since Facade is not Guts; it does not ignore the Atk from drop being burned.

That was changed in X&Y, according to bulbapedia, which is why I made the original post. If that's the case, then with burn Facade is essentially 315bp after STAB and PB, compared to the 229bp of Return after STAB and PB.

I'm not even trying to argue that Facade is the optimal move for every situation. What my intended point was that if this mechanic change is true, you can't even consider burning Kangaskhan a reliable way of checking it. That's a pretty big deal.

Edit:

Just to point out, there is actually a 72 raw power difference between return and facade. When factoring in stab and parental bond, Facade is 70 (1.5) (1.5) = 157.5. Return is 102 (1.5) (1.5) = 229.5

Unless you're burned, in which case Facade becomes 140 (1.5) (1.5) = 315 vs. 102 (1.5) (1.5) = 229.5.

 

[Thorhammer]

Just tested and I can verify that Facade gets boosted damage when burned. Wasn't a very in-depth test, so I can't say "it's definitely doubled compared to non-burned", but there's definitely a change, presumably to simply ignore the burn attack drop as expected

Still, this is not relevant to Ghost-types like Sableye, and it'll require giving up a ton of power on neutral targets. But it's something.

 

[silfan]

Why even bother with Facade?
The only relevant users of WoW that will switch in to Kangaskhan are like Sableye, Cog, and maybe Trevenant or Gourgeist if they think Kangaskhan don't bring Crunch.
None of those can be hit by Facade and if they manage to burn Kangaskhan, they are staying until Kangaskhan switch out.

 

[Strykeypoo]

Why even bother with Facade?
The only relevant users of WoW that will switch in to Kangaskhan are like Sableye, Cog, and maybe Trevenant or Gourgeist if they think Kangaskhan don't bring Crunch.
None of those can be hit by Facade and if they manage to burn Kangaskhan, they are staying until Kangaskhan switch out.

Rotom-W. Also, the unpredictability factor.

I'm trying to think of a comparison, but one doesn't immediately come to mind. What Facade does it takes Kangaskhan's arguable biggest 'counter' and turns it into something that actually helps it. While it does nothing to allow Khan to muscle its way past these ghost types, it does let it hit something else later on hard with an attack effectively 85bp stronger than the already monstrous Return. The problem is that it's hard to scout whether Khan is running Facade or not until after you've burned it.

You might brush off the thought of Facade Mega Kangaskhan as sub-optimal, but as long as that option exists, you should think carefully about whether your team can handle Facade before you throw out a Will-o-Wisp. As long as Kangaskhan can turn its biggest weakness into a strength, it means there's one less absolute check to it.

 

[Hidious]

Rotom is not switching into Kangaskhan. Only ghost types or pokemon with sky high HP and Defense stand any chance switching into Khan.

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO